The Current - Reformed “anti-vaxxer” speaks out

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

An Alberta nurse goes public with her story about how, as a new mother, she fell victim to online misinformation about vaccines, and how she began to question those beliefs during the pandemic. Today, she’s a pro-vaccine advocate, and uses her past experiences in the anti-vaccine movement to inform vaccine-hesitant parents.

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Please play responsibly. Charitable gaming, community good. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. Over the spring and summer, measles spread like wildfire across North America. Alberta was one of the centers of the outbreak that province recorded 900 cases since March and has surpassed the number of total reported cases in 2025 in all of the United States. The communities affected are largely rural and remote places where some people are reluctant to get vaccinated.

Lydia is a nurse in one of these small towns in Alberta and is trying to convince parents and patients who oppose vaccines to change their minds. And it is a shift that she understands intimately. She herself used to be a self-confessed anti-vaxxer. We are only using Lydia's first name because she says that as a result of her work, she has been threatened and harassed online. Lydia, good morning. Good morning. I want to start by going back a little bit. to your history with vaccines.

When did you start questioning vaccines? I mean, did your parents vaccinate you as a child? Yes, I am vaccinated. That was just the thing people did back then. My parents grew up with all those diseases, so I think to them that was the best choice at the time. They saw what those diseases could do. My grandmother died of tuberculosis.

My mom and her siblings all had TB. So there was a bit of fear. around disease in my family as well. When did you start questioning vaccines? I didn't start out that way. I actually had a career in STEM. I used to be a quality control chemist for a pharmaceutical manufacturing plant. When I got pregnant with my daughter back in 2008, I went to all my prenatal appointments.

I got a flu shot while pregnant. Over time, I became more cautious because my daughter had a vaccine reaction. And when I called public health, they weren't very helpful and kind of blew me off as a first time mom told me it was normal and that if I was really afraid, I'd take her to the ER. And it just kind of felt embarrassing and it didn't really make me feel like I could trust them. I went to an online community that had also helped me with other issues that health care wasn't very helpful with like breastfeeding. And when I told them about my daughter's vaccine reaction, they had all these cautionary tales, vaccine inserts, and just scared me out of continuing to vaccinate her.

I had two more kids. I did not vaccinate them either. I just fell victim to misinformation. Can I go back to, you talked about how you felt in some ways, you know, that the health care system blew you off when you went to them about. the reaction that your child had to vaccinations. You wrote about this in McLean's magazine. Yeah. You said that you felt dismissed and humiliated. Can you tell me a bit more about that? Yeah, it was, it was

embarrassing because in a lot of ways you feel like you don't know what you're doing. So when you call someone for help and they're just like, well, you're just being an anxious first time mom, there is a bit of humiliation to hearing something like that. but also no further reassurance other than, you know, if I'm really, really worried I should

take her to the ER, but if they dismiss me and I go to the ER, you know, I don't feel like I'm going to get treated any better. I just watched her closely for, you know, the next couple days while she screamed her head off and just could not continue vaccinating her if that was like the help I was going to get if things went wrong. You wrote that, and you talked about this, you went online for information about vaccines, and you say that you came to your anti-vaccination stance online, quietly and gradually. In the beginning, it didn't feel like I was joining anything. It felt like mothering.

What does that mean? Everybody wants to protect their children. At first, I just skipped the vaccination that I thought was responsible for the reaction, and I was going to do like a slow. vaccine schedule. Just going in these groups and talking about making these appointments and other aspects of parenting, you know, as your children grow, and you're just exposed to more and more evidence, you know, that's maybe not the best evidence. You just kind of gradually start believing it. And on the surface, a lot of these vaccine myths have some kind of kernel of

truth. But when you zoom out and you look at bigger studies, they just don't hold water. What were you getting from the, you're part of a mother's forum? What were you getting from the forum that you weren't getting from the health care system? It felt like when I talked to the other moms, that they also cared about my child in a way that I didn't feel when I called public health about her reaction. You kind of have this sense of community. And as a mom that, you know, gave up a lot. I gave up a career. I gave up a lot of things.

I moved to a completely new community. I lost a sense of myself and my identity, and I just fell into being just this mom person now that had to worry about every little thing that was going into my child's body. You find this community of other moms that are going through the same thing as you, and so you kind of bond over it. We kind of are there for each other in a way that you're not getting in your own community. And the McLean piece, these are your word. You say, our culture isn't kind to mothers.

You're judged for letting your kid use an iPad. You're judged if your baby cries in a restaurant. You're judged if your kid gets sick and you're judged if they don't. It's relentless. And feminism excludes mothers. People will treat us with pity if we choose to be a stay-at-home mom and treat us with disdain if we go back to work. Tell me more about that culture and how you experience that. I mean, you've hinted it, but how you experience that culture that you're describing.

The family has gotten increasingly smaller. We don't have a community of aunts and sisters and other moms, grandmas, whatever, helping us anymore. The economy is tanking to the point where you couldn't even really stay home if you wanted to in this day and age. It's very rare. And we're just expected to bear the brunt of all of that. Motherhood has just become very lonely, even in spaces where it used to be protected and looked out for. And that online community gave you a sense of community that you weren't getting elsewhere. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Did you ever question what you came to believe around vaccines? Oh, yeah. I actually have all my posts from mothering that I, when I do talk, like I do a public speaking thing sometimes for conferences. And I have little snippets of like, I'm thinking about traveling. Maybe I should do vaccinations, you know, and I was at an appointment and the doctor was really hostile to me and wouldn't answer my questions and asked me if I was trying to kill my kid or I wanted my kid to die. And those are the kind of things that just shut the conversation down. But there were definitely opportunities to have conversation with me and due to lack of time or lack of patience. Those opportunities were missed. what were those opportunities to have the discussion to ask me why i was afraid of vaccination what i

what i thought was going to happen if i vaccinated my kids like i don't think there is really any genuine curiosity you know over why i didn't want to vaccinate because i think in health care you know one we're we're star for time but two you know you think if you let this person pop that you're going to give credence to what they're saying but the only way you can can, you know, talk to them about it is if you hear them out first. It kind of opens up that conversation. But if you shut a person down, they're going to shut down and they're not going to hear anything you have to say. What was it that eventually changed your mind? I mean, you went from somebody who had had vaccinations yourself to not vaccinate your kids, to then

what changed your mind? So it was COVID, but not because of the vaccine per se. I just noticed So one of the myths in the anti-vax movement is that it was sanitation and hygiene. That's what really should be credited for the reduction of disease. And then I noticed during COVID people didn't want to participate. Like that community was complaining about the hand sanitizer everywhere. And they were complaining about having to wear a mask. And I just thought, well, that's weird because we had said that that was actually what reduces is disease. And it does to an extent, I mean, vaccination and hygiene and sanitation are all

friends and together they work great. But the fact that they didn't want to participate in that, it kind of made me ponder why, like, I think it's more of like, don't tell me what to do as opposed to this is why we do things. Because I feel like if that was true, then that would have made sense to do, you know, those precautions that we were taking at the time. time. You also wrote about your son and his diagnosis of autism? Yeah, my son probably started showing signs of autism around the age of like two and a half. And I just didn't really even notice his autism because the things I heard in the Antivax movement about autism was so negative. And I had this beautiful, perfect little boy. And I just couldn't put those two together. When I started

realizing I was wrong about a lot of stuff, I realized I was also really wrong about my son and he needed our help. And he was diagnosed with Level 2 autism spectrum disorder. I was able to access things. My regret is that I didn't access those services sooner for him because the sooner you do it, the better the outcome. My son was completely unvaccinated and he is autistic. Bingo! Woohoo! Great games, good. friends and giving back. That's what charitable gaming's all about. At a charitable bingo and gaming center, your gameplay has a real world impact on thousands of Ontario charities supporting causes such as counseling services, youth sports programs, and health care. So come and enjoy a wide

variety of games. And remember, when you play, local charities win. See how we play. Visit charitablegaming.ca. Please play responsibly. Charitable gaming, community good. What kind of person takes on the law? Can they ever really know what they're getting into? A really tough-looking guy came up to us and said, Are you part of this gay case? My family started getting death threats. I wasn't able to go outside alone anymore.

I'm Phelan Johnson, host of See You in Court, a new podcast about the cases that changed Canada and the ordinary people who made history. This is David and Goliath we have here. Find and follow See You in Court wherever you get your podcasts. And so what did that, I mean, how did that influence your shift away from the anti-vaccine movement? This all happened at the same time. So when I realized I was wrong about vaccination, which the reason why I started vaccinating, too,

is because I started thinking about, like, the collapse of, like, health care systems and, you know, wondering if maybe I would want to access a couple of vaccines for my kids. The hypocrisy of the movement kind of made me consider I could be wrong. And then one of the myths I believed I found out I was really wrong about. And so that's when I started realizing like, oh, I should probably vaccinate my children. And then I realized, oh, man, I totally missed that my son is autistic. Because when preschool teachers and stuff would, you know, suggest maybe he should be assessed, I was actually quite offended that they were saying that about him.

instead of concerned because, like, you don't know him like I know him and he's beautiful and special and he might be behind, but he's not autistic, you know? And like, that hit me really hard that I could be so blind to my own child because of this system of beliefs I had, which was if I did everything perfectly, my child would never be autistic. And so, like, having to live with that, too, there's definitely some guilt there. What was that like to decide having gone through what you did, what was that like to decide that you were going to vaccinate your kids? It was a slow process because when you believe something so long, it's very hard to lose your fear, even though logically you know it's the best choice. And I think a lot of parents

in general have anxiety when they vaccinate. Even my pediatrician friends have told me, you know, yeah, of course, that's normal. But I think in my case, it was probably even more heightened. I, you know, had a lot of sleepless nights and it was very psychologically uncomfortable to admit that I was really wrong about vaccination. Fortunately, you know, during COVID, there was a lot of people that, because they were at home, you know, they were willing to talk to me. And I had immunologists and, you know, PhDs and pediatricians that were just willing to go through each, each and every myth, I believe, because a lot of people want to hang up on like one myth, like let's say the vaccine autism myth and think that's why

people aren't vaccinating. But there's probably like at least 20 common myths in these groups that people believe, you know, when they're not vaccinating their children. So to have to tease through all of that took time. And I was so fortunate to have people take the time. It was still very hard that first appointment. Public health has improved. they're more willing to work with hesitant parents so if you are hesitant i encourage you to reach out my nurse was great she said you know you do what you can handle what your anxiety can handle all keep track of what's remaining and we'll go as fast or as slow as you want so i actually ended up going from starting with a couple to getting through it as fast as possible because

the stress of one injection versus three is the same it was because they were able to work with me and meet me where I was at, that I was able to get to that point. I mean, you're now part of that effort, right? You're a licensed practical nurse? Yes, yes. And I talked to my community members, you know, if I noticed that there's vaccinations missing, I'll encourage them, you know, to go reach out to public health. I'll ask if there's anything in particular that's bothering them.

So there's three reasons why, you know, there are unvaccinated pockets. in Alberta. One is like the anti-vaccine mythology. Two is people fell behind during COVID. And now there's a bit of like, oh man, I missed all these. Like I'm so embarrassed. I think those people can be worked with. Absolutely. It's just you have to be understanding like, hey, like it's no big deal. You fell behind. We'll catch up. Is that what you mean in the piece when you say that the assumption is that antivactions, these are your words, are uneducated, conspiracy-minded types. And sure, some are, but there's also a large group of parents who are just confused, overwhelmed, and desperate to make good choices?

Yeah, there's so much mixed messaging out there. And so it's easy to become overwhelmed and not act out of that confusion and not, you know, feel like you can reach out. And then there's a third group that just don't have accessibility in their community. You know, a lot of indigenous communities just don't have access. You know, they don't have vehicles. They don't have access to, to get to public. public health, public health is not going to see them, and that that's leaving people vulnerable.

And then, you know, of course, there's a huge mistrust in that community of, you know, authority. The indigenous people are entitled to that mistrust of authority. Can you take me into the room just briefly? I mean, how do you convince parents to question the beliefs that they might have? I mean, given your own experience, what do you tell them? A lot of the time, if they're not in a place to hear it, it's, there's nothing I can say. But if they're at a point where they're questioning and they're coming to their own, like, oh, man, like, maybe this isn't the right choice or maybe I should clarify further,

you know, I just ask them to share the thing that bothers them the most because, like I said, there's a good 20 myths at least out there. So depending on what's bothering them, I can address the myth one at a time. And a lot of defense. And a lot of defense. mechanisms for people who are anti-vaccine is to name 20 things and throw them at you, and then you as a health care worker are so overwhelmed with the 20 things. They said, you can't really reply. And then they'll take that lack of reply as like, well, it's because you don't know. So I try to say, like, narrow it down to like the one that bothers you the most and we'll discuss it. Because like I said, like there's often a couple of tiny little studies

or opinion pieces that misconstrued what a study said. And if you go through it with them and show them the other studies that have like hundreds of thousands of people versus, you know, Wakefield study only had 12. You know, if you explain it and that there's a hierarchy of evidence and like, you know, you can look like this is higher quality versus this is not as high quality. You can reason with people, you know. So how much have you been successful in this? I mean, have you, in these conversations, have you been able to change people's minds?

Yeah, I have a support group online that has about two, I think it's about 250 people now that have joined and we support each other through vaccinating our children when we were so afraid to at one point. We don't share misinformation, but if anxiety is holding you back and you can only do one vaccine, like that's, that's great. You know, because I think once you see with your own eyes that your kids are okay after a vaccination, you're able to move forward with vaccinating your children. So that first vaccine, if you can get a patient to do that, that's amazing. And they'll see that their kids are okay. Even one of my kids got a rash after one of their vaccines. And public health called me back. You know, when I reported that this rash, they called me back like a week later.

they're like, hey, you said that you had this rash. I'm just calling to see if, you know, if it got worse, if it's better now. Like, so they are, you know, interested in hearing about, you know, adverse events after vaccination. And that sounds very different than what you went through earlier. And, yeah, it is the climate, you know, at public health has definitely shifted to be more supportive for hesitant parents. It's not like it used to be for sure.

Can I just quote one final thing that you wrote in this piece from McLean's, which is, again, these are your words, the anti-vax movement isn't simply a grassroots network of concerned parents. It's an industry and it's lucrative. How does your understanding of the broader anti-vaccine movement help shape the work that you're doing now? You know, I'll say we'll go back to RFK Jr. He had the Children's Health Defense and they fundraise a lot. But there's other, you know, groups out there that are also fundraising, you know, for this purpose. There's webinars, there's seminars, there's supplements, there's special clinics. A lot of money to be made, too. Detoxes and there's strange things happening out there too. Like a lot of parents want to cure

their child's autism. There's a community that's, you know, promoting the use of chlorine dioxide, which is bleach. Enemas to kill the parasites that cause autism. That's not how autism works, but they just prey on desperate parents. It's preying on vulnerable people who are desperate. And so why is it important for you to talk about this now? Being in that world was very mentally draining. It starts with the anti-vaccine thing, and then you're doing things like you're just obsessed with toxins.

And that's not to say we don't have exposure to toxins in our environment. We certainly do. But it becomes to, like, it comes to a point where you can't even enjoy mothering your children anymore or, you know, you're at a birthday party bringing your own cupcake because you don't know what's in their cake. And just really, like, stressful and lonely. And I just tell my story. So if anyone's going through that, too, like, maybe they'll give themselves permission to. to consider, you know, changing their mind on vaccination and and giving themselves permission to be imperfect. There's a healthier, more moderate way to parent and that, you know,

healthy food and vaccination can be friends. Like, you don't have to eat all organic and not vaccinate. You can vaccinate and do that too. Yeah, I just hope that if people are going through what I went through, they can maybe consider a different way to live so that they can be happy and involved with seeing their kids grow and not have anxiety about every little thing. Last question, and this is just about, we're only using your first name because, as I said, as a result of your work, you've been threatened and harassed online. You use a pseudonym. When you write about your work, you've said that when you leave the movement, these are your words,

they come after you. They call your employer. They file complaints. They flood review sites with fake horror stories. Yeah. What's the cost of you speaking out about this? The anti-vax movement can do what's called brigading. They'll call your employer.

They'll give you, you know, they'll give clinics like poor reviews and say, this person hurt my kid or whatever. And they'll just focus on one person for a while and move on. And it can be very traumatizing to go. through that. I've been harassed. I've had things in my inbox. I've had people tell me, like, well, one of them I can remember is like, I hope you arm yourself. Like, we're coming for you. I hope you're armed. And I'm like, that's great. Like, so it can get pretty extreme and heated. And, you know, then there's like the conspiracy theorists that come at me and and make up stuff about who I really, who I really am. So it can be scary navigating that world. And once

leave? Like, they do come after you. So I don't use my real name in my work because it's just a little, it feels a little safer. But it's worth it for you still to do that work, even though. Yeah, I think so, more than ever, actually. I think, I think this is just the beginning. I think we're going to see what these diseases are like. That's, that the next decade is going to be us learning what things like measles and diphtheria are. And so having someone that went through that change, I think when parents realize and they have that scare when they get that call, like, hey, there's measles that'll break at your school or, you know, whooping cough is back or any numerous diseases that we vaccinate

for, I think having someone who's lived that will be able to reach them better than a person and that's never lived that. Lydia, I'm glad to have the chance to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Lydia is a nurse in Alberta. Her recent opinion piece in McLean's magazine is called Confessions of an Ex-ante-Vaxer.

You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.