The Current - Remembering Jane Goodall and her ground-breaking career

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

Jane Goodall’s research into chimpanzees changed our understanding of the natural world. She died yesterday at the age of 91. So we’re bringing back our conversation with Jane Gooddall from October 2023, where she told Matt Galloway how her youthful curiosity sparked a ground-breaking career — and why her hope for curbing climate change lied with young people

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Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. As you've been hearing in the news, the conservationist Jane Goodall died yesterday. She was 91 years old. Jane Goodall was considered the world's foremost expert on chimpanzees. She spent five decades living with them in the forests of the Gombe National Park in Tanzania, and through her research, revealed just how similar we are to our primate cousins. In 1977, she founded the Jane Goodall. Institute, a global nonprofit that protects great apes and preserves their habitats at his offices

around the world, including three here in Canada. In this job, there are people that you can't quite believe you have the opportunity to sit down and talk with. And Jane Goodall was one of them. I spoke with her in Toronto in October 2023. Here's our conversation. This is a strange time. The world feels like the axis has been tilted a little bit and the news isn't good. It seems like an easy question, but it's not, how are you doing right now, given everything that's happening around us in the world? Well, you know, the problem is that we really are in very dark times. I've lived nearly 90 years on this planet, and I lived through World War II when Britain stood alone against the might of Nazi Germany, and there was no hope for us, and yet we managed because of

Winston Churchill. So I suppose there's something inside me that has helped to confront these seemingly difficult, horrible situations with the feeling that we'll get through it. But it is environmentally, politically and socially, really bad, bad times. And this latest Israel Hamas war, that's terrible. Let me ask you about the environmental issue. I mean, the summer that we have been through has been apocalyptic. You have towns burning down in Hawaii. You have wildfires and the smoke that spreads all over the world.

the hottest temperatures on record in certain areas. Flooding and hurricanes. And then it goes on and on and on. Coming through that, what goes through your mind about the world around us in some ways? Well, you know, as far as the environment goes, everyone is focused now on climate change. Governments are making commitments.

They've made them in the past, and that hasn't resulted really in very much. So one hopes that these disasters really will start waking governments up. But, you know, just as important as climate change and inextricably linked to it is loss of biodiversity. And, you know, as habitats get destroyed and ecosystems collapse, that's doom for us if we don't do something about it. And climate change is accelerating the loss of species, which of course, mainly by us. Knowing what you know and having done the work that you've done for so long,

what's most alarming to you about the biodiversity loss that we're seeing right now? Well, if I take the ecosystem of the forest, which I know best, I was able to spend weeks and weeks out in the forest alone with the chimpanzees, but learning about, you know, the ecosystem is made up of this complex mix of plant and animal species. And you find that each one has a raw. to play. And so if you think of it as like a beautiful living tapestry, every time a species goes from that particular ecosystem, it's like pulling a thread from the tapestry. So if enough threads are pulled, the tapestry hangs in tatters. The ecosystem collapses. And people seem to

forget cloistered away in cities and towns and with their virtual reality. They forget that we're part of the natural world. And not only that, we depend on it. We depend on it for air, water, food, everything. And so if we carry on like this, we will be doomed, but we've got this window of time. And we have to get together.

And this is the message that the young people, they rally to it. They're passionate. And, you know, when you're very young, you have all the hope in the world that they can make change. And that's what's needed. We need this feeling like Churchill gave the British people in World War II.

We won't be defeated. We will win. Do you have much hope in... There's another big climate meeting that's going to be happening, and people with their hands on the levers of power will be there as well as those fossil fuel companies, and there'll be great arguments about what they can and can't do. Do you put much hope in leaders, in elected representatives, at those sorts of meetings, to try and chart a way forward,

to figure out a way forward? Well, some of them. I think the main thing that comes out of those big meetings is the networking that goes on. And that can lead to movements. I can't go to it this time, but I will be going to the World Economic Forum where you also have the not so good and the great coming together.

Because you have people like Greta Thunberg who go to those meetings and say that it's just a lot of, in her words of blah, blah, blah, blah, that nothing happens because people are just talking, not actually acting, isn't matched by the decision-making? That is the problem. That's been the problem. And, you know, you do get passionate people in government,

but so often they're overruled. And, you know, that's one big problem. You can have a president who really cares about the environment, puts lots of protections in place, and then the next president comes along and undoes them. I mean, that's what happened in the U.S. Why do you think, and I ask you this as an anthropologist, Why do you think it's so difficult for us to work together?

Do you have any insight into why we have this existential issue in front of us? It will affect everybody, and yet we can't get ourselves together. What's the block there? Well, part of it's probably in-group, out-group. I'm with my group, and everybody outside is an enemy. It's also competition, certainly with NGOs. They're competing for money, and so they're beginning. to work together.

You know, it's really important. I see humanity as at the mouth of a very long, very dark tunnel. And right at the end, there's a little light. That's hope. But it's no good sitting waiting for hope to come. We've got to roll up our sleeves, crawl under, climb over, work around, all the obstacles, which is climate change,

laws of biodiversity, poverty. Poor people are destroying the environment to survive, unsustainable lifestyle. This terrible industrial agriculture, which is poisoning the land, killing the soil, growing our food with chemical poisons, basically, artificial pesticides and herbicides. And it's harming people, and it's certainly harming animals. It's certainly causing massive loss of biodiversity. And when it's animal agriculture, it's unspeakably cruel. and they're adding masses of methane

to the greenhouse gases. Are you confident that we'll figure out how to work together? That we'll figure it how to not be selfish in some ways? Well, so the good news, if we look at it as this tunnel of problems that we have to overcome. The good news, there's groups of people working on every problem. But the trouble is, and this is what you just asked, they're working in silos.

And if they're working without thinking of the whole picture, in other words, collaboration, then they solve their problem, but that can lead to another. Like electric cars, fantastic, loss of noise pollution, no greenhouse gases going up. But they need batteries. They need lithium. We're digging up the world for lithium now. That you need to figure out how to solve those problems together. Together.

We must work together. And young people are good at that. That's where my real hope lies with our youth. And we've got to work with them and help them. Can I ask you about where this all began for you? You talk, I mean, and this goes back to that original National Geographic documentary that I watched from the 1960s just the other day again. And you talk about your childhood dream being realized when you entered the jungle.

What was the childhood dream? What was the entry point for you? to this wider world? It started, I think. I was born loving animals and being fascinated and curious. But the great thing about my childhood was I had an amazing and supportive mother.

And she supported this love of animals. She didn't get mad at me when I was one and a half. She tells me she came into my room and there I was in bed with a big handful of earthworms. And, you know, so many mothers, how day, you know. But she just said, Jane, you were looking at them, as though you were wondering, how did they walk without legs? And she just gently said that they ought to be in the garden or they might die, so we took them into the garden.

And it was like that, through my childhood, no television, so it was books, always books about animals, and being out in nature, which is what children lack so often today. So books, books, books. I used to save up my pennies of pocket money This is during the war And I found a little second-hand book shop With books piled, higgled, he piggled he all over the place And little old man, I don't think he knew where any book was But he didn't mind this 10-year-old rummaging around

And I found this little book Which I could just afford to buy And I took it home up my favorite tree And I read it and I fell in love That was Tarzan, Tarzan of the apes. And, you know, little girls of ten can be very romantic. So this glorious Lord of the Jungle and what did Tarzan do, he married the wrong Jane? So anyway, that was my dream began.

I will grow up, go to Africa, live with wild animals, and write books about them. Everybody laughed. How will you do that? You don't have money. I don't know much about Africa. It's a dangerous place. And you're just a girl. Not my mother.

If you really want to do something like this, you'll have to work really hard, take advantage of every opportunity. And if you don't give up, hopefully you find a way. So, you know, cutting the story short, couldn't go to university, no money, got an invitation to Kenya

from a school friend, saved up money by working as a waitress and got out there and met Dr. Louis Leakey who offered me this opportunity of studying Jim. The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in Canada and Google is helping Canadians innovate

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The amazing thing that he said is that you were a girl with no special training. You just had a natural aptitude and no preconceived ideas. The no preconceived ideas thing to me is one of the most fascinating parts of this, because that's really hard. People go in with a certain set of ideas. That's right. Where does that come from? Well, I don't know.

I mean, Leakey chose me just because I hadn't been to university. It wasn't my choice not to go to university. All my friends went. We just couldn't afford it. And so it was only after I'd been with the chimpanzees about two years and really started getting to know them and how like us they are. And then Leakey said, I had to get a degree. He wanted scientists to take me seriously.

There wasn't time for an undergraduate degree. He got me a place in Cambridge University to study ethology. I didn't even know what ethology was, but I had to get a PhD in it. And the professors at that time, I'd done everything wrong. Chimpanzee shouldn't have names. If you're studying them scientifically, you must number them. You can't talk about their personality or their mind or their emotions. Why?

Those are unique to us. And, of course, I had this teacher when I was a child, this dog, and if you share your life with a dog, a cat, a rat, a rabbit, a cow, or a, I mean, a parrot, you know perfectly well. We're not the only beings with personalities, minds, and emotions. Did you understand when you were doing, you were 26 when you started doing this work, right? Yes, well, I went to Africa and I was 23. 23, which at that time, I mean a 23-year-old back then in 1956, that was like a 16-year-old today.

We were really naive, but totally different. Did you understand then that you were changing the world? Of course not. Did you understand how important, even if you don't understand that you're changing the world, did you understand how important that work was in that moment? No, because back then, you know, we weren't faced with climate crisis. It was beginning to happen, but nobody mentioned it. And loss of biodiversity, there was still great forests.

When I arrived at Gombe, the forest stretched right across Africa. And then 20 years later, looking down, Gombe was just a tiny island of forest and the hills were bare. And there were more people living there than the land could support. So it was back in 1986 when I went to this conference and learned how chimp numbers were dropping and forests were disappearing. That's when I knew I had to leave the forest and try to help. It was at that point. It was, I didn't, people say it must have been a hard decision

because they were the best days of my life. The best days of your life. Absolutely. So they say it must have been a hard decision to leave. But there wasn't a decision. decision. I went as a scientist, and four days later, I emerged as an activist, and it was just like that, but I didn't know what to do. I just knew I had to try and do something. You're so clear in saying that they were the best days of your life. What is it that made them the best days of

your life? Because I could be out in the forest, and especially on my own, feel absolutely a part of it. You know, if you're with somebody else, even somebody you love, you're two people out in nature, loving it together. But if you're on your own, you forget self and you're part of it. And there was this strong spiritual connection with the natural world. And I say spiritual, meaningfully.

What did that feel like, that connection? I don't know. I used to feel that I was doing what I was meant to do and just filled with happiness every day. and also learning about the chimpanzees of course and all their characters and this that and the other but it may sound odd and sometimes I feel strange even thinking it

but I feel that I was put on this planet with a mission and first of all it was to start spreading awareness about what we're doing to the planet and then it was to reach out to children And now people have to have to have hope. Because if we lose hope, if we all lose hope, finish. As a society, we'll often discount young people and will say that they're not old enough,

they're not mature enough, they're not ready to do this. What is the success that you had as a young person tell you about the potential of youth? Well, I've never thought about what success. I had as a young person. I think the young people today have such a difficult world that they're born into that, you know, they start, as soon as they understand,

they start trying to change their parents. I've met hundreds of parents who say, well, I recycle my kids, make me. You know, I think growing up in the war was really incredibly beneficial because everything was rationed. and people were being killed. And even though I was five when it began,

you know, still, I learned to take nothing for granted, not even life. Do you remember those days really vividly? I remember very vividly towards the end of the war when I was 10. I remember still with that same feeling of horror learning about the Holocaust.

And just, I remember climbing the same favorite tree, where I read Tarzan and thinking about human evil because we can be truly evil no chimps go to war chimps kill but it's the passion of the moment like seeing a stranger from another community

but we can sit far away from conflict and in cold blood plan how to kill as many people as possible how to torture people and that's evil you talk about hope a lot and hope isn't elusive thing for a lot of people right now

and I just wonder when you hear people who might say the work that we're trying to do to turn back the clock on climate change or at the very least pump the brakes on it that it's too late that we've already passed this tipping point what do you say to them do you understand where they're coming from yes well a lot of scientists are saying that and David Suzuki said that to me. He said it's too late.

And I'm not alone among scientists to believe there's this window of time when we can at least slow it down, start slowing it down, start saving the forests. And there is a much greater awareness. So I try and convince them by telling stories, telling stories about, you know, I've seen places totally destroyed like Sudbury and you know that's one of the stories in the latest IMAX film

that it's a mining town that was a moonscape and that you're there helping people to plant trees and regrow a forest that's right so they began that account about 30 years ago and everybody said it's impossible you never clean up the rivers and the lakes

fish will never live here again and lo and behold it's a lush green place loons on the lakes and fish coming back nature is amazingly resilient that's one of my reasons for hope. Animals on the brink

of extinction can be given another chance. You say in that IMAX documentary you're an obstinate person what does that mean in terms of the work that you do? Well it means that I'm not ever going to give up

but you know I think and I've talked about this with a lot of people who look at me from the outside I mean it's difficult for me but people say well you know one of the reasons that you can sometimes change a person

is you're not aggressive you don't point fingers at them you don't say don't you realize what you're doing is harming the planet and to try and get some feeling for that person and then take out a story and sometimes that plants the seed in their heart

because people have to change from within. You said that in some ways it feels like you're put on this planet to do this job. And I just wondered at the end of our conversation, you're 89 years old, you have more energy than most people have half your age, you're on the road something like 300 days a year, I think, talking about this. How do you do what you do now? How do you find the energy and the drive in the midst of everything that we were talking about to still be out there?

giving people hope in the face of a really difficult... Helplessness, yeah. Well, first of all, I'm driven because I care passionately about the environment, the forest, the animals. I care passionately about children. You know, I've got three grandchildren. They're grown now, but presumably two of them anyway will probably have children. And what a world to be born into.

And then I don't know. It feels as though I'm given this strength. But I can't answer that question because I don't know. I just have to feel it comes from somewhere, whatever, is out there. And it's interesting, isn't it, that so many scientists are now saying there is intelligence behind the creation of the universe. My mother said to me when I was growing up, Well, you were born into a Christian family, so you would worship God.

You might have been born in Egypt. You'd be a Muslim. You'd worship Allah, and so on. There can only be one God by whatever name you call him, her, it, whatever. And so this intelligence behind the universe is just another word for that, whatever it is. You know, I mean, what is it? None of us know. And some people just deny it.

I can't. I just, because it feels so strong for me. And that gives you the drive to do the work that you do? Yes, and it gives me the strength. You know, sometimes before a lecture, I'm so tired. And, you know, and it was a lecture the night before, my voice is failing. And I think, well, for pity's sake, help me. And it comes.

It's strange, but three times, and I've really got scared by this, on one of these occasions when I'm really tired, I've actually looked at myself giving a talk. And it's scary. I've got to get back into myself to know what I'm saying. It sounds weird, doesn't it? It is weird. Very weird. Lucky us to have you here. You're amazing. it's a real pleasure to meet you in a real honor to talk to you. Thank you very much. Well, I've been very happy talking to you, and I've said all kinds of things which maybe I wouldn't normally say, but you did that to me. Jane Goodall, thank you very much. Thank you. She was amazing. That's my conversation with the conservationist Jane Goodall from October of

23. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name's Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cBC.ca slash podcasts.