The Current - Sikh-Hindu tensions flare in Canada

Episode Date: November 8, 2024

There have been violent confrontations between Sikh separatists and Hindu nationalists outside temples in B.C. and Ontario. We look at what's behind the protests, how the diaspora here is responding and what it will take to turn down the temperature.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current Podcast. The Ontario cities of Brampton and Mississauga were the sites of violent clashes this week between Sikhs and Hindus. Police have charged three men in the wake of the violence, and there were similar incidents in British Columbia, in Surrey, and in Vancouver. Police there made three arrests, but have not yet laid any charges. On one side of these protests are supporters of Khalistan, a proposed independent Sikh homeland in India. On the other, those who back India's Hindu nationalist government, which opposes the Khalistani movement and characterizes its activists as terrorists.

In a moment, we will hear from Satwinder Bains, who's an expert on the Khalistan movement. She's at the University of the Fraser Valley in British Columbia. But first, I'm joined by Yudvir Jaswal. He's group editor of Y Media. This is a publication that covers news on South Asian communities in Canada, as well as international news. Yudvir, good morning. Hi, good morning. How are you? I'm well. Thank you for being here. I want to begin by having you describe the scenes at some of these protests. You were covering them in Brampton and Mississauga. What did they look like? First things first, I must say this, the clashes were definitely not between the Hindus and the Sikh community as it's portrayed in some of the media outlets. What exactly happened was,

we all know in the background of the Hardeep Niger murder, and after that, our prime minister announcing in the parliament and later in press conferences, and RCMP also announced that yes, there could be, they're alleging that there could be possible links to the agents of the Indian government, though the Indian government clearly denying any role in that. But after that, it has led to protests against the consulate officials here in Canada. Now, the consulate officials, they were supposed to come there, and they came there in the temple there, Hindu Sabha Temple in Brampton, to issue life certificates, which is a process required for issuing life certificates to those who want their pensions and for other reasons.

Now there were protesters outside this Hindu Sabha temple who were saying this that we were not protesting against any community, we were not protesting against the religious place but we were protesting against Indian consulate officials. So the tensions were already high, the emotions were high, and there were some issues there and things got flared up. The videos you mentioned, I mean, these have circulated on social media and beyond. They showed very violent clashes. You just said people being attacked with sticks. There were reports of other weapons there as well.

You're right. They attacked them with sticks. That definitely should not have happened. And yes, there are also questions now being raised. Why would you even protest outside the religious place? As a matter of fact, I've spoken to many who support the protest against the Indian consulate, but they're saying, yes, we agree, the protest should not be done outside the religious place. Mayor Patrick Brown is also proposing this, that he will completely ban any protest outside a religious place. Patrick Brown's the mayor of Brampton. I want to get to his comments in a that people need for pensions. Why would they be there? Why would they be doing this work at the temple rather than in an official consular building? Just to facilitate so that, you know, people don't have to travel all the way up to the consulate office in downtown. And this has

been happening for a while. As a matter of fact, this was not the only place. They do this in Surrey as well. They do this here in Brampton as well. And they were actually supposed to do now in another Sikh temple as well. But just yesterday evening, the announcement came that it has been cancelled now for now. They said, okay, fine, they could carry on this process. But for a few months, I doubt they will do this. But now it has been cancelled. Is the fear or the suspicion that those consular officials are not just doing consular business, that they may be spying or they may have something else that they are up to? I do not have a clear evidence that there may be some, but there are allegations, and yes, there are concerns from a minority. Yes, there are concerns. You said right at the very beginning of our conversation that you wanted to distinguish between what's happening and the broader community, saying that this is not a clash between the Hindus and Sikhs. There are millions of Hindus and Sikhs living across India. Right across India, if you go right across India, you will see millions of Hindus and Sikhs living side by side. And in Canada, this is one of the finest things that I've

observed. And they all live together peacefully. So there's nothing between Hindus or Sikhs or for that matter, even Hindus or Muslims or any religion for that matter. It's a clash of ideologies. One group, they want a separate state in India, and India would not allow that. That's the only issue. How has that changed in the wake of the killing of the British Columbia Sikh activist, Hardeep Singh Nijjar, in June of last year? How have those relations in this country between Sikhs and Hindus changed? I don't think so. As a matter of fact, you don't think the relations have changed at all? Not at all. There's a very, very small minority, those who want a separate state in India. They were always not happy with India. And definitely

there were already people who would not allow them to do that. So the fight with them has been there. It will go on. Of course, the challenge is now it has affected. And, you know, we saw these dark days from 1978 to 1998 prominently in Punjab. I've lived through those 20 years and the common Punjabis suffered a lot. Then the community suffered across India because of this clash. And that's why I think the community is going to suffer here as well. This is, I mean, we're seeing these protests and the attacks and conflicts here in Canada. But what's going on has spread beyond this country's borders. The Prime Minister of India, Narendra Modi, was speaking about the protests,

saying, in his words, these are deliberate attacks on a Hindu temple. He said he expects the Canadian authorities to uphold the rule of law, added that any attempts to intimidate Indian diplomats in Canada were, in his words, equally appalling. How have his comments, the comments of the Prime Minister of India, impacted the communities here? I don't think so. It was a deliberate or any planned attack on a Hindu temple. No, I think just in the heat of the moment, things did happen. I've already mentioned it was wrong. Protesting outside a religious place, that itself is wrong. We should have designated places for protest.

How concerned are you, though, that the Prime Minister of India is weighing in on this? And not just weighing in, but suggesting, to your point, that these are deliberate attacks? Prime Minister of India, he should be concerned. That's fine. But he should not really give a verdict. That's my issue. When leaders start issuing verdicts, and since you're talking about leadership, I think there are a lot of challenges India is facing. They should be focused more on their challenges. And our leadership here in Canada, I think just by condemning the attacks and then not really doing much about this thing, I know the mayor has announced, which is welcome. But then what is our federal leadership doing about this? Federal leadership, our provincial leadership, those are the people who have

resources, who have time, who have protection, and that's their responsibility. We in the media are taking the leadership. We are talking to the Sikh leadership, Ontario Sikhs and Gurdwara Council. We are in discussion. I've been discussing on phone with the Hindu Federation. They are doing it by themselves. Peel Police is actively participating. But if I may question, what is our federal and provincial leadership? What steps have they taken? Have they come out? Have they organized any press conference? As a matter of fact, when we ask them, I've asked many cabinet ministers, they hesitate. They're reluctant to give any answers. Then where is your leadership? What would you want from the federal leadership? Come out, first of all, do a proper press conference. Do a proper press conference that,

yes, what steps are you taking? If you don't want to support designated areas, that's fine for protest. But what are you doing to avoid these conflicts? I mean, it's not about two groups anymore. We've seen so many violent clashes. I mean, the schools are being hit. The businesses are being hit. Hospitals are being targeted. Highways have been blocked. Religious places are being targeted. And this is not the first issue. And this will definitely not be the last issue. I'm telling you that unless our federal and provincial government, they come out, they ban all these protests, at least on all sensitive areas, first of all, once and for all, and create designated spaces. The time to act is now. We're out of time, but let me ask you two quick things. One is, in the absence of that leadership from all levels of government, but you're pointing the finger particularly at the federal government, what are you most concerned about as these clashes continue? I'm not just pointing fingers. Federal, provincial, and municipal, they all have to sit down together and do something. Second, what I'm more concerned, this

is the number one issue for Canada. I said it to at least 50 different leaders, from Judy Segrow to Michael Ignatov to Joe Volpe to our prime minister's former stephen harper has interviewed him i've interviewed the current prime minister i've discussed with every i've said this every time this will be the number one challenge for canada it's we have a very diverse community we are proud of our multicultural system great but then how are we integrating them i'm very concerned because as there will be escalation with social use of social media, fake flyers and so many fake news going on, the challenges are going to

increase. And this will be the number one challenge for Canada because we've seen clashes in different parts of the world. How do we solve them? We bring our Canadians together by integrating them. We have so many different, you know, South Asian Heritage Month, Sikh Heritage Month, Tamil Heritage Month. But how are we integrating them? We should have proper ministry. They should work. Throwing money on multicultural, you know, programs will not help. And when you speak with, just finally, when you speak with members of the community,

you speak with people across the diaspora about these protests, what do you hear from them? I would say 99% of the people I speak with, and even on my radio shows, 99% of the people, or even more, I don't have the exact number, but even more would say we do not want challenges or foreign conflicts to be even discussed here. More and more people tell me, Yudvir, on Y Media, we only want two issues. People are worried about the future of their kids here. They do not want to discuss these issues at all. Most of them, they're asking me, who are these people who have so much time to go and do these violent protests?

Who are these people? We don't want to do that. We don't have time. Yudvir Joswal, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Matt. Thank you so much. Yudhvir Joswal is the group editor of Y Media. We reached him in Mississauga, Ontario. Yesterday, Indian officials cancelled several consular events in Ontario in the wake of those protests. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news.

So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. As we mentioned, there were also clashes and protests in British Columbia this week.

Satwinder Bains is director of the South Asian Studies Institute at the University of the Fraser Valley, and she's in Abbotsford, British Columbia. Satwinder, good morning to you. Hello, Matt. Good morning. When you and I spoke last fall, you said on this program that you were worried about rising tensions within the Indian diaspora here in Canada and where those tensions might lead. So given that, how surprised are you to see these clashes in Ontario and British Columbia? I want to say I'm always surprised because I'm an optimist and I always have hope that we will resolve our issues in a more meaningful manner, in a more building solidarity with each other. have been kind of projected out by the politicians and by the media in the sense that they're showing

sectarian violence as something that's come out of this. And like the previous speaker, I believe that that probably is not the case. I don't think it was targeting faith groups against each other. I think it was an unfortunate issue of placement as the council general people from the consulate were at the Hindu temple. And then, of course, anger flared from there. Can you explain why pro-Khalistan activists would object to these visits to places of worship by Indian consular officials? There was a request being made, well, there were requests from a number of different groups saying that, and then the World Sick Organization of Canada suggested this, that the organized, these are its words, the organized forays of Indian diplomats in the

Canadian communities appear designed to incite conflict and must cease. Why are people, those activists, so concerned about those government officials being in those places of worship? As you know, Matt, the soft diplomacy has kind of failed in Canada with the Indian government in the last few months. And I think there's a sense that the Indian government is playing a role at the Gurudwaras, at the Hindu temples, not by inciting hatred. I don't think they're doing that. I think they feel that they're canvassing the communities and finding people perhaps who would take sides or perhaps they want to. I wouldn't want to use words like infiltrate, those are very powerful words, but maybe make some inroads into the communities on the negative side. I think soft diplomacy has a lot of a big role to play in all countries and all parts of the world. And I think the Council General is fulfilling that role by assisting

seniors and others in these places. You know, for the Sikh and Hindu communities, the temples and the gurdwaras are our community places. We don't have other community places that we gather at. So the council general is taking that opportunity to go there. And I think the protest is against that, that they're going into places of worship with government agendas, and perhaps they're afraid of those government agendas. I don't want to say afraid, perhaps, but they don't like those government agendas. And I think they're protesting that. So I would say that the Council of India has to find other places to perhaps do their diplomacy work. Maybe the Gurdwaras and temples are not the appropriate places, but there is a lack of other places as well to reach a large community group.

And it's an easy access. But I think there are some underlying issues that I think people are afraid of. Why is it that you think activists within this community are particularly feeling sensitive right now? As you know, this period of time is a commemoration of 1984 and everything that happened in India in November. So this is a very sensitive time for people and very emotional time for people. And I've said this many times that perhaps we are

not able to move forward because there has been no resolution. Can you just explain for people who don't know about 1984, just very briefly, what happened, but also what is the resolution that people in the community might be looking for? Of course, 1984 is a very important year in terms of history for Sikhs. Indira Gandhi, the prime minister of the time, had wanted to rout out the terrorists who were holding, held up in the gurdwaras in India. So she attacked the largest gurdwara that for, anyway, for the diaspora and for Sikhs in India,

is a very important site of religion and worship, and went in and closed the city off and closed all media and attacked those people that were holed up in there. And then from there, it escalated where she was killed. And then there was pogroms held all over India, especially in Delhi, where Sikhs were targeted and killed. And so it's a very, very emotional and sensitive time. And the issue of resolution is that the people who did that work and killed people at the time and incited violence and then acted on that violence were never held to justice. And it has taken, it is still today, outstanding issue for Sikhs. And Sikhs in the diaspora who fled India

at the time, who were afraid for their lives and live in Canada now, and who have moved away from the homeland but have come to another country, continue to harbor their emotional pain. And this pain has never been resolved by the government of India. And I think it just continues to haunt us. And it continues to play a role in this idea of Khalistan, which is a free state inside of India. That idea of Khalistan and the tensions that exist were exacerbated in the wake of the killing of Hardeep Singh Nijar, who was shot dead last year. Gurukirat Singh of the Sikh Temple in Surrey, where Hardeep Nijar was shot, spoke with the CBC's Meera Bains about the aims

of the pro-Khalistan protest. Have a listen to this. The Sikhs are not protesting against a faith or any specific type of group. Our protests are against India and the Indian diplomats who have now been labelled people of interest here in Canada for their ongoing violence against Sikh activists. That is obviously not how Hindu protesters see things. Do you think that the message that he is talking about, is that message lost when the protest is happening outside of a Hindu temple?

And as the CBC has reported, the people at that protest, or some of the people at that protest, are holding cardboard cutouts depicting the assassination of the former Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi by her Sikh bodyguards. Does that bury the message that he's talking about there?

I agree with you. I think the message is very badly crafted. And I think within this moment, and I said that last year to Matt, that maybe to you, Matt, that maybe that was a turning point after Hadeep Singh Nijer's murder, that there might be a place to have conversations and to build bridges and to find ways to move forward. I'm sorry to say that that probably hasn't happened. I'm sorry to say that that probably hasn't happened. There's a call to leaders from both within the community and for politicians, as Yudhvir has mentioned earlier, to come forward now and use other means to get your messages across to each other and to find solidarity with each other on the issues, which I think most

people would agree with, that no one wants violence. Both Sinloos and Sikhs, I think, would agree to that. But the message is definitely lost, especially when in the public arena, it is covered in this manner. The average Canadian doesn't understand the nuances of what emotional baggage people are carrying. And the long, long history, as Yudhvir has mentioned, of Hindus and Sikhs living side by side in India, but having, still having clashes. There is communal violence in India. There is a marginalized group. Hindus are the largest group in India, and Sikhs do feel

persecuted there as well. So these stories have stayed one-sided. People have aired their stories, but they haven't had a joint discussion. I think there has been a call to leaders from the Hindu and Sikh communities to sit down. People are tired of this. And in the public arena, as Yudhvir has mentioned, we have things to do. We have a country to build. We have work to do. We've come as citizens to this country and want to contribute to this society. However, if these issues are there, there are other means that we need to use. And I agree with you that I think the message is lost and those other means are not being harnessed. And perhaps this is the clarion call to people to say, we need to use other means.

The protests are not working. And protest is OK. A protest, I agree with, you know, peaceful protest is a right of Canadians. However, when there is so much emotion within those protests and people use things like, you know, burning flags or using cutouts, you know, it doesn't help the message. And I think there is a message here that we can share with each other and find maybe common solutions. Violence does not beget violence, whether it's by pen or in paper or by standing up and doing protests. I think there's come a time when we need to make some sort of decisions. As academics, we need to come forward, perhaps, with a statement that says, you know, we need a better process,

and we need to hold our leaders accountable to that process. Whatever that process looks like, it has to be a joint process. Who has to take the lead in having those conversations? You've called them difficult conversations, but necessary conversations between communities. Who has to take the lead to make sure that those conversations actually happen so that people, I'm not saying that they resort to violence, but that in the absence of those conversations, that's what they see? Well, logically, it would be the leaders of these community groups that need to come together. Do you see any evidence that that is likely or that people are interested in that?

It seems like it. I've been watching these last few days and it seems like people are talking. And there's been a joint effort by those groups to say this was not sectarian violence. And I'm emboldened by that and I'm happy by that. However, there needs to be conversation also within, as Yudvir has mentioned, the groups that are not sitting in the protest, the ones who are watching from the side, for them to have a platform to speak about their frustrations. People are, as I said to you last year, are afraid to speak because you have to be in or you have to be out. You can't be in the middle. You can't say,

I agree with you, but I disagree with this. I agree that you have an issue, but I disagree with the tactics you're undertaking. That difficult conversation is not happening. So I wouldn't say it's only the leaders of the Hindu temples and Sikhs that need to come together. I think there are people outside of that sphere who are not leaders, but who have a stake in this. Because as Canadians, we all feel these are discussions that have not found resolution and keeps coming. It's like that wound, that open wound that just keeps bleeding and oozing. And there comes a time when you say you have to find some balm for it because it is not going away.

This is now how many years later after 84, it's not going away. In the absence of that, how raw are relations between friends and neighbors and co-workers? Not at a high level, but just at a community level, in the community itself. I'm happy to report, Matt, that at the community level, people are friendly and like all Canadians, you know, peace-loving. I don't see these kind of flare-ups, you know, on the side of the road or in my neighborhood. I'm happy to say people are not doing that, and I'm glad to hear that that's not happening. This seems to be at a different level. And I think that level needs to

hear from the bottom level as well, all levels to have these open discussions. So we are going to take some sort of steps. I think we all need to come together. It's not a one sided issue. It's not. And I also feel it because India is so far away physically, geographically, but at the same time through media and through age of information, it is right at our doorsteps. We need to find ways to have diplomacy and ties with the country so they can understand what we're going through. You know, Prime Minister Modi is saying these attacks are not useful. I agree with him. However, he needs to put something forward to say, what else can we be doing? What should we be doing?

I think at the higher level, the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister of India need to, I'm sure, are having these discussions. But as an average Canadian citizen, you know, we're not privy to that. And we need to know what should we be doing on the ground. Satwinder Bains, good to talk to you again. Thank you very much. And thank you, Matt, for taking this on. Satwinder Bains is Director of the South Asian Studies Institute at the University of the Fraser Valley in Abbotsford, British Columbia.

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