The Current - Talk to your U.S. friends about Trump’s tariffs, says ex-PM Joe Clark

Episode Date: February 14, 2025

Former Prime Minister Joe Clark is writing to his friends in the U.S., reminding them of their country’s long friendship with Canada. He’s urging other proud Canadians to rally around the flag and reach out to their American connections, because he says not everyone there supports U.S. President Donald Trump’s threats about tariffs or making Canada the 51st state.

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This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, it's Matt here. Thanks for listening to The Current wherever you're getting this podcast. Before we get to today's show, wonder if I might ask a favor of you if you could hit the follow button on whatever app you're using. There is a lot of news that's out there these days. We're trying to help you make sense of it all and give you a bit of a break from some

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and white maple leaf flag. But this day has also taken on more meaning with Donald Trump continuing to threaten Canada's economy and independence. Yesterday, the US president announced sweeping global reciprocal tariffs. He also upped his rhetoric about Canada becoming the 51st state, calling us a very serious contender to join the United States. In the face of these threats, all five living

former Canadian prime ministers signed an open letter urging Canadians to show their patriotism. Joe Clark was Canada's 16th Prime Minister from 1979 until 1980. He's with us from Victoria. Mr. Clark, good morning. Good morning. When you take a look at what is going on south of the border, what goes through your mind? Well, a sharp distinction between the two countries.

They have always considered themselves a superpower. I guess we have always considered ourselves a cooperative power. For a long time, we've got along with quite a high degree of mutual respect. The election of Donald Trump has brought a different mentality to the US and it is undoubtedly threatening to Canada. I personally, to look at one bright element of this, one encouraging element, I'm very encouraged by the nature of the Canadian response because it has not simply been a response by the people sitting in leadership positions. There has been a clear statement of real pride in Canada from across the country,

including interestingly in Quebec where that has not always been the definition, but I think that the initial reaction of Canadians, the widespread expression of confidence and faith in our country is an asset we have to build on. And sometimes simple things are what we have to do. I'm not sure it's very helpful to exacerbate the tensions with the president. We have to deal with that on an issue by issue basis and I think the responses of the of the various Canadian governments have been quite positive. But I think what we want to take a look at is what

can we do on a citizen to citizen basis including simple little things like, excuse me for this simplicity, simply writing letters to our friends in the U.S., being in touch with them, not to condemn their presence, but to make the case of the value which most of them know quite precisely that Canada holds. Why did you, it's interesting, in the simple gestures, one of them is coming together with, as I mentioned, former prime ministers as a collective, which does not happen often, to speak with one voice. You told the Globe and Mail, these are your words, I was frankly surprised when Jean Chrétien phoned me with this proposal as he was going through it, I realized, and I've had my differences with him, that this, in a sense, was Kretschen at his best.

Why was it important in this moment to have you and fellow prime ministers come together to speak with that one voice? Well, for one thing, it's not rare. It's been a characteristic of Canada for quite some time. You know, in my time in the House of Commons, particularly as leader of the opposition, I was a pretty harsh critic of the then government on particular issues.

But the atmosphere that prevailed, even in the worst of those times, the most difficult of those times, it was a cooperative atmosphere. We were in this together. And I'm sorry to come back to the response by Canadians so far. I'm very encouraged by that because I think they're in this modern age with so many things preoccupying a country that is engaged internationally as we are. This sense of pride in this country is an asset of which we have not perhaps seen enough. We've not called on it enough in the past, but it's here and alive and it's not artificial.

The letter tells Canadians to show the flag as never before as this country contends with threats and insults from Donald Trump. What do you mean never before in terms of what we're up against? I can't think of a case in which there has been a similarly direct targeting of Canada. It's not exclusive of course, but we are next door and that has traditionally been a mutually cooperative relationship. This is a quite dramatic change in tone and in

treatment. There's an ease with which Donald Trump has said that Canada should just become the 51st state, that he thinks we would be better off. And I just wonder what you make of that tone, that it's not initially people perhaps thought it was a joke. And very clearly it became clear that it's not a joke. It's not a joke. It also doesn't apply specifically to Canada. It is a Trumpian expression of

American power and that is certainly something we have to deal with. Part of the issue is that, and I don't know this, but he had a fairly broad mandate. I doubt that being troublesome to Canada was a central part of that mandate and indeed I doubt that it was a central part of that mandate. And indeed, I doubt that it was a central part of that mandate that he would be troublesome toward aggressive to other countries. I'm not sure that he has the support of his base in that question. And remember, he was elected not simply by his base, but by a number of people who, for one reason or another, had voted for a change in US governance. So I think what we have to do, and I want to come back to this question of Canadian to American contact, I think we have to take a look at what we as citizens, individuals,

that can do about his base. And we don't want to do it simply by attacking activities that we think are uncalled for and unhelpful by the president. I think we want to mobilize the goodwill that has historically been part of our relationship. And look, this has not been a one-way relationship. I mean, Canada and the US have made the kinds of accommodations to one another that friends usually do. That has been a pattern for a long time. Sometimes it's been quite dramatic.

I wasn't in office very long, as you'll recall, as I recall. But I certainly remember one very precise event when Ambassador Ken Taylor and his colleagues brought American hostages out of Tehran. I recall the moment the issue was brought to Floral McDonald, my foreign minister and myself, we immediately agreed that that should be done. And that was carried forward. And it was widely appreciated not only in Canada, where I think they thought that was an appropriate neighbourly action, but also in the United States. The numbers of communications we received from people we've never heard of in the US, thanking

us for that action, was not only an expression of gratitude, it was a recognition of a state of affairs, a state of relations, a state of mutual respect that had existed between Canada and the United States through very much of our history. What has happened to that sense of mutual respect now? Well, one thing that's happened, and that's a very important question because many things have happened. One of the things that's happened, of course, is the Trump presidency because he has brought a much more aggressive role to what was long

ago called a bully pulpit. And we have to consider that's going to continue to be the case. We want to deal with it as well as we can on a diplomatic basis, nation to nation basis. But I really think we want to take a close look at how we do that on a citizen to citizen basis. And I say that in part because so far at least in an unusually difficult time for us with a liberal leadership campaign in full sway, the House of Commons not likely to last, it's convening, all of these sorts of things. It's a difficult time for us. This is a time where more than usually,

our citizen role, citizen to citizen, with people who share this, part of this North American continent with us is very important. And I think it's, you know, this sounds very simple, but I am writing to friends of mine, people I've known over the years, not so much to criticize the current president as to recall the essence of the Canada-U.S. relationship, which has been by and large a very positive one. I think that we're not likely to persuade him directly.

We may well be able to persuade some of the citizenry on which he relies. And remember, these are early days in the Trump administration. He obviously calculated a series of efforts that would put everybody off balance. And we're obviously in the process now, we Canadians, as trying to determine what are the best ways for us forward. I'm not partied those discussions, nor should I be. I'm no longer in office. I'm a former commentator at this, an observer at this stage.

But the polling in Canada has indicated that we have a very substantial weapon, call it instrument, option of our own that citizens can express as we have been in Canada. But now we have to do it across the 49th parallel. Let me ask you a couple of things just about this country. We have seen, you talked about a difficult time in Canada, we've seen a number of deepening divisions in our own country over the past number of years. And there's been a narrative that has circulated that for, because institutions may be failing or people are losing trust in institutions, that Canada is broken. When you hear that, what goes through your mind?

Well, then I take a look at the poll that shows so many Canadians, expressing their pride in the country. You don't believe this country is broken? I don't believe this country is broken? I don't believe this country is broken, but you know, this country is breakable. Most countries are breakable. I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that is happening.

I don't even think that's on the edge of happening. But I think that we have to recognize that one of the components of maintaining our strength as a country is, first of all, action by all of us in the realm where we might have some influence. But secondly, a greater appreciation of the strengths that we have. We're a federal country where both federal and provincial levels of government have real power. And we're a country where there have been historic divisions. I'm a Western Canadian by origin and I know that we grew up with a sort of incipient sense of being unequally treated in the large country. Those sorts of senses of

difference have always been in the country. What's interesting is that more recently we have retreated into our parts, I think, and this clearly is a time when we have to find ways to to move forward together. And as I say, even in a fractious time with leadership campaigns in process, with the federal-pro federal provincial relations which are difficult. We are finding that our formal Canadian leaders, premiers, federal government are coming together. What about the citizens? What role can citizens play?

It's not a facetious question. There's a strong bond of friendship across our borders. And there's also an instinct, I think. I think there's a sense in which, in this very narrow particular, Mr. Trump is an outsider in his own country. I'm not saying that he can't stir up antagonism towards others.

He's certainly trying to do that. But I don't think we should assume that his citizens will simply snap to attention. Are you ready to take control of your finances and build the life you've always dreamed of? I'm Jessica Morehouse, a Canadian money expert, accredited financial counselor, bestselling author and host of More Money. Each week I bring you inspiring interviews and practical advice to help you make smarter financial decisions. Tune of More Money. Each week, I bring you inspiring interviews and practical advice to help you make

smarter financial decisions. Tune into More Money on your favorite podcast platform and let's start your journey to financial empowerment today. Can I ask you, I'm talking to you on the eve of Flag Day and for many people in recent years, the flag has become a symbol. I mean, we've seen it as part of protests, we've seen it in the wake of the pandemic, during the pandemic, upside down on the back of cars and trucks, often with a

sticker cursing at the current Prime Minister underneath it or something like that. When you saw that, I just wonder what your reaction was and what you think the flag means now to Canadians. Well, I think that comes to the point that I'm trying to make is that we have to treat it as something else. We Canadians have to treat the flag and our country as something worth advancing. Were you disappointed when you saw it used

as a symbol of protest? No, I mean, I think that's, that's not the way I would use it. Using it as a symbol of protest I think misunderstands the power of the flag. Look, I was a young progressive conservative. In fact, I was the president of our youth federation at a time when Mr. Dieffenbaker, a leader I admired and followed, opposed what he called the the Pearson pennant, what became the Canadian flag. I as a member, an active office holding member of his party and most and almost all of my young conservatives at that time supported the flag.

It was not universally accepted, it became accepted over time. And yes, there may well be occasional misuses of it now, but I think, and the polls show this, it is a clear and accurate demonstration of contemporary Canadian pride in the country. And we can't keep that to ourselves. We have to make sure that citizens, particularly of a generally friendly neighbor nation who have had generally positive relations with Canada for some time, realize as much as possible on a person-to-person

basis that what is happening now is not some distant affair of state. This is a matter of real direct concern to citizens on both sides of the border. This is, I mean, a moment it feels like in some ways, and yet you've hinted at this. Do you think patriotism is something that comes easy to Canadians? Yeah, in a crunch, I think it does. In a crunch? Yeah. I mean, I don't think we travel the world celebrating Canadian virtues, but I think that we all carry a sense of the advantages we have.

They're not just personal advantages, they are collective advantages, they are community advantages. I still believe in this country as a community of communities. That means we have taken account of and we show respect for our our own differences. And that is a message that has to cross the border because Donald Trump's actions indicate he does not respect the genuine

differences of this country. I think a lot of his fellow citizens probably would respect the differences of Canada and of some other countries. And I think that we have to, as Canadians, as the people closest to the Americans, in many cases, not just physical, we have to make use of those contacts and connections now. What do you want to see from political leadership in this country at this moment? I want to see as much consensus as we can find

on the process of asserting Canada's interests and defending Canada's interests. And I think to some degree that seems to have happened now. It's a hard time for it to happen because there is a clear opening in the leadership of the government of what is now the governing party. And an election on the horizon. And an election on the horizon. But that does not mean we should put aside our deeper concerns which have to do with the nature of the country. So far, the actions of most of our leaders have been very constructive.

Look, I'm disappointed at the contentious tone that seems to have overtaken Canadian politics in the last several years. I think it has developed and it's unfortunate because it has the impact of edging Canadians away from one another. And we have always needed incentives to come together to identify the strengths we have and to move them forward. I'm quite disturbed as I watch the House of Commons where I used to be very active at the mutual tone of virtual disrespect that I see across the house. I'm not saying it's brand new. I can remember once in a particularly contentious debate, a quite large, stronger than I was, a liberal member charging across the floor with his fist raised at me

and a couple of my own guys, equally capable of fisticuffs, sort of stood up behind me. But it ended. He stopped himself midway across the floor. It was an isolated instance. By and large, we were a cooperative place. We were a mutually respectful place. And I think that we, the members of all parties, have an obligation to try to establish what has been, that tradition is a deeply ingrained Canadian tradition. We have to try to restore it. But what I really want to say at this stage, looking for other things that we can do,

is that this is a time for citizens to come to the active support of their country by using the contacts, the personal contacts that we all have in the United States. We shouldn't assume that just because he's president, that Donald Trump speaks for his citizenry on this question. And if there's a risk of that happening,

that heightens the necessity for us to become involved making the case for Canada. Do you feel that he is under, Donald Trump has underestimated Canada and Canadians in this moment? I don't think he thinks about it. I think he is a very narrowly focused

national leader. It's surprising because very narrowly focused national leader. It's surprising because very often assuming national leadership broadens your vision. I don't think that has happened with him. What is also alarming to me is that the quality and inclination of the people he is moving into senior positions seems more narrow than it was even in his first administration. And that means that we have a problem here and that problem has to be addressed by a number of Canadian agencies but that includes Canadian citizens with friends and influence of their own

exercising that influence. Joe Clark, it's a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Joe Clark was Canada's 16th Prime Minister from 1979 through 1980.