The Current - The Bulwark comes north to commiserate with Canadians

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

It can be dizzying for Canadians to look south at American politics these days. Tim Miller, host of the Bulwark's podcast, joins us to talk about how Americans see the relationship with Canada, what Donald Trump is doing to his country's standing in the world, and what he sees as the path out of the crisis in his country.

Did you know that it was once illegal to shop on Sundays? That's true for when I was born. I remember this, and I'm not that old. I'm not, okay? Leave me alone. Anyway, I'm Phelan Johnson, and I host See You in Court, a new podcast about the cases that changed Canada and the ordinary people who drove that change. From the drugstore owner who defied the Lord's Day, to the migma man who defended his treaty right to fish, to the gay teacher who got fired and fought back. Find and follow, see you in court, wherever you get your. podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast.

It was the late Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who once compared living next to the United States to sleeping next to an elephant. No matter how even-tempered the elephant is, said Trudeau. Canada is affected by every twitch and grunt. Well, lately, the elephant has been anything but even-tempered. Why are we supporting a country 200 billion plus a year? Our military is at their disposal, all of these other things, they should be a state. U.S. President Donald Trump has not reserved hostility just for Canada.

His speech at the United Nations this week was something. I'm the president of the United States, but I worry about Europe. I love Europe. I love the people of Europe. And I hate to see it being devastated by any. energy and immigration. It's time to end the failed experiment of open borders. You have to end it now.

I'm really good at this stuff. Your countries are going to hell. This weekend, the hosts of the very popular U.S. political podcast, The Bullwark, have brought their show north of the border for two live editions in Toronto, designed, they say, to commiserate with Canadians, but also to talk about how people in both countries can respond effectively to this moment. Tim Miller is the host of the Bullwark podcast. and he's with me in studio. Good morning.

How's it going? Good morning. I'm the elephant. Thanks for being here. Or adjacent to the elephant. Why are you here? Why come to Canada? I've been wanting to come to Canada. Well, I've been here before, but to do the show since the spring. And it just takes a minute to get it all worked out with all our visa rules and border rules and all of that.

But look, we had a huge surge in interest of folks to the podcast, to our YouTube show, once Trump started doing all the 51st state nonsense back in the spring. And I remember being kind of moved by watching videos of people singing the Canadian National Anthem and stuff. Like at that time right when this was the most hot, and I said to my colleagues, I was like, we should do a show in Canada. I said the folks up there are passionate and I think it would be fun. What do you make of the fact that there are a lot of people here paying attention to what you're doing? We could talk more broadly about how, you know, whether Americans are paying attention to us. But it is the subject of endless discussion here.

Yeah, it's interesting. In some ways it makes me a little sad because, A, just like the degree to which we have a total S show down in our country is what is drawing all you guys to pay attention to us. And I also think that, like, the nature of our politics has become such a reality show. You know, like there's no reason it should be that interesting to people, not just in Canada, but I mean, we have listeners from everywhere. And they are listening in part because of the direct, you know, how our actions are affecting people here, which is real. There's, you know, direct policy impact. But they also are watching it kind of like how you might watch the Kardashians or I don't know what the Envogue reality show is up here. But there is that element to it too.

And like that part is pretty depressing. Like that our politics are so crazy and insane that people watch it for like kind of a weird. dark entertainment as well. How do you think of the way that the Canadian government has handled the attacks from Donald Trump, particularly when it comes to tariffs. I mean, there's tariffs on, I mean, there's new ones now, on kitchen cabinets, furniture, trucks, pharmaceuticals. He said this is all under the issue of national security. The Canadian government dropped most of its counter tariffs in trying to figure out how to get to a deal with the United States, it seems like. What do you make of that?

You know, it's hard for me to know exactly what's happening behind the scenes with Carney. I was more emotionally attached to the elbows up, Carney, of the campaign, than the actual policies of starting to limit, you know, the reciprocity, if you will. I mean, it's hard for me as an American, like living in Louisiana to say, you Canadians should give them the double middle finger and go full, you know, go whole hog on this fight. because there'll be real suffering in Canada. There'll be real economic hardship. I do think strategically that's probably right. And I look at Vietnam as an example. Vietnam has done everything to sidle up to Trump.

Trump has a $1.5 billion golf course that he's building in Vietnam. And they got his family. And they got nothing. They got literally nothing. And so, you know, if you take that example, it's kind of like, well, I mean, what is, you know, what is not doing the digital tax going to get for, going to do for Canada? What about not traveling to the states? I love Louisiana,

love California, Arizona. A lot of people are not heading down to... Everyone should only come to New Orleans. We welcome you with open arms and it's important for our local restaurant tours. Do you think that is any impact? It's having a real impact. It's having a real impact. It's absolutely having an impact.

It's having an impact, particularly, you know, obviously in the Northeast, Maine, like that part of the country. It's having impact on the West Coast, like Palm Springs. I have friends that are, that I hear from in Palm Springs who talk about how, you know,

there's loss of business. They put the little signs on the streets of Palm Springs. and we love Canada. Yeah, please come. Vegas. There's been a big story about how Vegas is down. So I do think the lack of travel

is impacting us. And I get it, honestly. There's a lot of great places in the world to go. You could just fly right over us and go to Cancun. But do stop in New Orleans. We spend a lot of time thinking about our relationship

with the United States. How much time do you think Americans spend thinking about that relationship? Basically none. I mean, right? This is why it's noteworthy. And I just mean, even myself, I think of years without thinking.

about the Canadian relationship, but I did feel in some ways that you all were on the front line, so this battle against Trump, and I feel like we've been forged a little bit to care about this. So I think that the pro-democracy side, the anti-Trumpers, we're thinking about you down there. But look, even Trump, right, and he is the attention to spend of a gnat. But like, there's a period of time where he's popping off about Canada every week, right? You guys are looking good up there, you know, the 51st state. Why is he doing that? But he stops, I talk about it for a while.

It's not just the 50 first state. It's also just to a lot of people, torching what has been a very good trade relationship between two countries. Yeah, he doesn't care about that because Donald Trump doesn't think about the national interest as anything separate from his personal interest. And his personal interest is to be flattered, you know, to be sucked up to, to be treated well. And he didn't feel like that was happening under Trudeau. Obviously, that wasn't happening with Carney during the campaign.

And it's as simple as that. He's not like that complicated of a guy to handle. analyze. And so that's why he's doing it. And I think that at the moment, there've been other issues and, you know, things that have distracted him. He's, you know, building a new ballroom, et cetera. So like the Canadian, you know, he hasn't talked about Greenland in a while either. But, you know, in a weird way, the ballroom and the candidate, if a two first thing are related, right? Like, what Trump cares about is his own ego, his own, like he wants to put a stamp on this whole thing. When he leaves, he wants to have the Trump ballroom at the White House. And he wants, you know, I do think he's interested in, like, could America acquire another country or territory so that people could say that Donald Trump did that, you know, if he ever dies? So I think that that is, like, you know, basically all there is to it. You know what's funny? Tony Colette hates watching horror movies, but she loves acting in them. As one of the most dynamic and versatile actors of her generation, Tony has starred in

everything, I mean, from her Oscar-nominated role in The Sixth Sense to her iconic haunting performance in Hereditary. In our career-spanning conversation on Q, you'll hear why she keeps returning to the genre she's afraid of. That's on Q with me, Tom Power. Follow wherever you get your podcasts, including on YouTube. How worried should we be in this country about what people see as, you know, the disintegration of democracy in the United States? You have James Comey, the former director of the FBI now indicted yesterday. People worry over. openly about growing authoritarianism within that administration and the things that not just, you know, Comey and Jimmy Kimmel, but more than that, how worried should people in

this country be about that? Probably less worried than I should be on this one. Look, I think that there's a lot to be worried about. And, you know, Trump has accelerated his efforts to, you know, my colleague Bill Crystal wrote this week, he's like, there's a Watergate a week. And the the Comey thing, you know, would have been an entire all-encompassing scandal of any other administration. and Trump is doing three or four of those every week. With Canada, you know, look, I don't expect, sometimes I do hear from my new friends on the left, like some catastrophizing about like how quickly like we're on the path to,

I don't think this is the 1930s in Europe right now. I don't think that, you know, Donald Trump's going to gain power and then start actually looking to put troops on the ground of Canada. He's kind of a wimp, actually, when it comes to, when push comes to shove on all this stuff. So you don't buy the authoritarian piece? No, I do buy the authoritarian. I just mean, like, in Canada, I just mean, I don't buy the Nazi, like, this is going to be Europe and cross the border. Yeah, right.

That's what I'm saying. I think that Canada, obviously, in some ways, this is probably strengthened your relationship with Europe. There are other ways for, you know, Canada to think about, and I think maybe even potentially strengthened the talent, people that want to come to Canada. And I think that there's potential opportunities here. Obviously, economically, it's a problem. And obviously, to your elephant analogy at the beginning, it's not great for your southern neighbor to be in total chaos. we are. You said you're new friends on the left. You left the Republican Party in part because of Trump's nomination. Yeah, almost entirely because of it, yeah. How surprised are you that the party

has just fallen right in line behind him? Is this just about raw power? Is that all it is? Yeah. I mean, it's a lot about raw power. And it also is about Donald Trump tapped into something. And I think you see this a little bit. This is something I would be concerned about up here on the right is that there is a culturally conservative vein that, is happening throughout the world, not just in America. It's just most acute in America. It's particularly happening in rural communities, but also among kind of younger men everywhere. And they are motivated by immigration concerns. They're motivated by cultural grievance. They're motivated by, you know, racial concerns. Trump tapped into that in a way that, like,

Republicans, I liked, didn't, right? Mitt Romney and John McCain weren't perfect, right? But they didn't give that part of the electorate, you know, kind of the emotional sucker that they wanted, right? Trump did. And so in that way, I'm like not surprised, right, that that folks rallied behind him. And that way that wasn't about power even per se. That was about an ideological desire for a more nationalist, culture warring kind of right party. Those in India and Brazil and Hungary, all over the world, there are parties like that. So that is part of it. Just because he's so clownish and ridiculous, I was surprised by how much everybody folded to him. Like, that to me was the biggest disappointments, right? Like, I always kind of worried that a populist,

like Palin. You saw it with Palin in 08. I were worried that a populist right candidate would take over the Republican for as long as I was a Republican. But Trump was just such a ridiculous version of it that I thought like not this guy, no way. Where's the line then, do you think, for people in the party? What would be their line in the sand or whatever the ground is that you're standing on? There's no line. There's no line. What was the line? I mean, there might be a line where it's too late. Is the line when his popularity starts to the road when it turns out that he's not saving the economy and... Maybe, yeah, look, it could be a line if it would be an interesting test to see what the line would be if he tried to run again in 2028 against the plain text of the Constitution. I suspect more Republicans than you expect would go along with that.

I do think you're right. Like, if he lost popularity among his own base, that might change things because that would have changed the incentive structure. But how would that happen? I mean, when the economy crashed in 2020 with COVID, he didn't lose any altitude at his own base. And if there was a major economic recession, potentially, you know, he would lose enough political power to be able to run roughshod over these guys. But I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm 100% sure that's the case. We talked to Chris Hes yesterday from MSNBC. And he talked about how he's not a doomer, that he's clear-eyed about what's going on.

But he does not think that that this is set in stone. You talked about catastrophizing. Are you somebody who isn't optimistic, is the wrong word, but are you able to put cynicism aside? No. I'm more of a doomer than Chris. You are. I am.

I mean, again, sometimes you have to put specifics on these definitions. Sometimes I hear people who are dumers who are like, you know, the American experiment is over. We're not going to have elections in 2026 and, you know, we're becoming Russia. I'm not that kind of dumer. I just mean that I don't think the trajectory is good about our politics. I think all the incentives are driving towards more, more rancor, more populist division, more internal strife. If you look at the AI, I just, I see in my life people, people already have trouble figuring out what is real and what's fake.

And the media environment in our country is just so crazy as far as people being in their own silos. And I just think that Donald Trump is not going to be followed by some return to normalcy. Like, people want people that, Donald Trump has unleashed something in the country, people on the right and particularly want his style of politics. And I think that people on the left are becoming, for good reason, aggrieved and retreating into their own silos where, you know, where you kind of get this endless escalation. And I just think that's kind of the trajectory on. I don't see like a return to normalcy, really. That doesn't mean, again, it's a duma about the end of America. We might muddle through all that.

But I think that there are dark clouds on the horizon. Which just finally, what's your role in trying, you've talked to the podcast about trying to create some sort of common ground or understanding and actually get people to kind of look at each other across the eye and see some sort of degree of humanity. Yeah. What is your role in that? My role is to tell the truth as I see it to people. That is number one to educate people about what's happening.

happening and be honest about my feelings, not do fake outrage about the other side. My role, I think just because the nature of being a white guy, he used to be a Republican, is to try to engage with people on the MAGA right and then this, not really even on the mega right, in the center, in the center right, people that voted for Trump, but are not fully on board with his authoritarian program and to talk to them and debate with them and commune with them and hopefully I try to, you know, create a space where we can have conversations about all this stuff. Can you do that in this era? Can you do it when you mentioned the algorithm? I mean, it creates the worst behavior in people. It pushes people out to this. It does push

people out to the edges. I don't, I think so. I don't know. I think that there's an interest of it. Look, I'm clear. I'm not talking about mushy centrism where it's like, oh, no labels. We can all hold hands. Like, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about honest debate. You know, there's certain people I don't have on the podcast if you're going to BS me, right? But if you want to have honest debate, you're from the Magaside or you were a, you know, you got sucked into it and you were upset about woke or you were upset about the economy or whatever. Yeah, like we can engage and we can debate and we can be clear-eyed and I might pick on you a little bit. But like, that is a healthy dialogue. And if we can't have that, if everyone is just retreating to

their corners and believing that everyone on the other side is evil and irredeamable, well, then we're screwed. What's the point of all this? I might as well just quit. So I'm going to try at least. Don't quit. I'm a huge fan of what you do. And I'm glad you're here. Thank you. I love being here. I'm so excited for the show. I'm going to sing the national anthem. I'm very excited. It's my big tease. That is going to be a trip. All right. I didn't mean to call you an elephant at the beginning as well.

Tim Miller is the host of the Bullwark podcast. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.com.