The Current - The CBC is facing an ‘existential threat,’ says new CEO

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Marie-Philippe Bouchard has taken over as CBC/Radio-Canada’s new president and CEO at a time when Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre and others are calling for the public broadcaster to be defunded. She talks to Matt Galloway about proving to Canadians that the CBC is a vital part of their communities, and making sure she’s not the president who turns the lights out as she leaves.

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This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. It has been said that Canada has two national pastimes, hockey and debating the future of the CBC. And who better to discuss that with than the new president of CBC Radio Canada, Marie-Philippe Bouchard, was appointed last fall, has just taken up her position, and she joins me in studio. Good morning.

Good morning, Matt. It's great to meet you and thank you for being here. Thank you. This is not an easy job at the best of times, and now is not an easy time to take over CBC. There is a very challenging media environment and landscape that we operate in. There are political headwinds as well and pretty loud opposition. You initially, when you were approached for this, you initially said no and then you said yes that you would take the job on. That is true.

Why did you say yes? Why do you want this job? Because I think it's time to show up. With the experience I've got, I felt that if and when in the process I was evaluated against other candidates, obviously, by an independent panel. And I felt that if I had the opportunity to join the debate as leader of this organization and to make it better, to continually improve it so that it meets your listeners and all of Canadians' needs as they evolve, then it's an incredible opportunity. And so, you know, that's why I'm here. Why did you have doubts initially? Why did you say no? I think my rational brain was looking at, you noise and debate. And I'm also of a certain age, so I thought maybe I was looking at retirement in a few years and how I wanted to spend the

next bit of time was a factor. And then I was fortunate enough to be invited to work on the expert panel that the Heritage Department Minister put together. And that reignited my passion for all that CBC and Rezokinada can do and what the opportunities are for the future. And so I felt that there was a lot of lights going on in my head that it was too soon for me to walk away. I'll use the language that you used, which is the noise and the debate.

It's loud. And part of that noise is why we need a public broadcaster in 2025. Make the pitch, why does Canada need the CBC? Oh, I think because it has a unique ability to bring us together. In all our diversity, we have a vast country from coast to coast to coast. We have two distinct linguistic markets, we call them markets,

but they're really people. And they have their own needs in terms of supporting culture and having a democratic debate that's healthy and based on good journalism. And I think CBC has a play a vital role in maintaining a diversified landscape for good journalism. Why do you believe that CBC is uniquely positioned for that? Because we live, and this is the environment that I mentioned earlier, we live in an immediate environment where we are overwhelmed with the amount of information that comes our way. I mean, you can listen to podcasts,

you can watch TV streaming services, you have music streaming services. It's easier to find information out about this country in some ways than ever before. So what is it that a public broadcaster can offer that you can't get in the avalanche of information that I can get off of my phone, let alone in all the other ways

that we can access information? Well, it's alone in all the other ways that we can access information. What's pretty unique about our history and how we are deployed, and we can do better to achieve even more of that, is that we are also local. We're also close to where people live, and we are able to report and reflect what issues are important to them. And we are at the same time, we're national,

and we also bring a Canadian point of view to what's going on in the world. And I think- And you think that other broadcasters aren't doing that? I think they have big challenges, and the media in general are in transition. There's been economic strain, and that has led to some depletion

of journalistic forces in many areas. So the fact that we have that trust and that mandate to be close to people where they live and to also reflect on what's going on from one part of the country to another, I think that's a really, really special thing, especially in these times where there are very loud voices talking about a change, a big change in how we see, you know, American thinking about 51st state and so on. This is a time where, you know, we more and more need to understand what makes us a country. Pete You were part of that expert panel, as you mentioned, that was brought together in some

ways to help shape the new mandate for CBC. So for you, what should the CBC be now? It should be, as they said, I think in proximity with people where they live. So the idea of having a local service that's relevant to people, to Canadians where they live, and at the same time allow for other Canadians elsewhere, and from French to English, and from Indigenous peoples to share those points of views, to be able to have a wide platform. But not only in journalism, also in culture. We are an incredible supporter of creators and artists, and we are an essential part of the creative economy of this country.

And that would be devastating if we lost that. There is a question as to whether we should be doing any of this at all. Public opinion polling shows that a significant majority of Canadians, this comes out of a study at McGill, want the CBC to continue 78% according to that study. That includes 67% of them who identify as conservative, but there are calls, very loud ones to defund the CBC. Pierre Poliev, who if you believe the public opinion polling could very well be the next prime minister of this country, speaks about it and it is the loudest or one of the loudest applause lines at his rallies.

He says he's serious about this. Have a listen to what he said in a recent interview with Brian Nellie of the Toronto Sun. I'm going to defund the CBC. That's my commitment. I said my commitment has been the same since I first said it at my very first leadership rally in Regina. I said we will say we will defund the CBC to save a billion dollars. That was my commitment then. It's my commitment now. Do you take Pierre-Paul Léavert as his word? Well, he certainly does take himself at his word.

Do you believe that he will, if he becomes the Prime Minister of Canada, will defund the CBC? I don't know what will happen in the next election. I think that's for Canadians to decide. And depending on what happens between now and then, there's all sorts of things going on. And it would be appropriate for any leader of this country to take stock in the conversations that are occurring

in order to find a path for what they promise to do. But he says that was his promise before, that's his promise now. So I just wonder whether you believe him, whether you think that that's what he'll do? I don't know. Only he knows, right? Have you spoken to Pierre-Paul Eiffel? Not personally, not personally, but I welcome the opportunity to speak to anybody, including

party leaders in due course, I think it's important that I and many other people in our society speak up about what value CBC Réseau Canada has or can be. If you spoke with him, what would you say to him about that value? I would say exactly what we've been discussing, how in my experience, it has forged citizenry that's more informed, that's more in tune with who they are and how different they are becoming, and that we support a media ecosystem, private and public, and it's true in the English market as well as in the French market. And so I think we have to have the conversation.

And if you're going to change something so fundamental about what makes up Canada, I think the least is to have a good sense of what the implications of that are. It's not just the CBC, right? It's all the people that we deal with, that we support, that we commission content from independent producers, content that would not get made if we weren't there to support it financially. If he follows through with his plan to cut all funding

for English language CBC, one of the questions that I'm often asked by listeners, people that meet, they hear that promise and they believe in that promise. What is plan B, if he does that? What is your plan B? Well, first of all, the way the corporation is financed at this time is a mix of appropriations, so government money, and self-generated revenue, what we call advertising revenue, distribution revenue. Okay. So the part that's appropriations, that's government money is 1.4 billion. That's a lot of money.

I understand these are big numbers, but it supports all of what we do. And so a billion dollars, considering that he's talking about CBC, the math just doesn't work because there's not much left for French services. If we are imagining that we are going to go forward with only French, the math just doesn't work. There's a serious risk that it would in fact cripple not only the English service but also the French service.

So I'm having a difficulty just reconciling all of that and I think it's normal because we are at the pre-election stage and maybe the promises are not that fleshed out. So what I'm saying is let's have a real conversation about how it's going to impact Canadians, Francophones and Anglophones and Indigenous peoples. So your sense, just to be clear, your sense is, because again this is what the argument has been made, is that English language CBC would be cut because he believes and others believe that there are lots of other free market options for people in English Canada,

but that Raja Canada would continue and the funding for RADCAN would continue. You believe that that's not possible. Well, I believe that that's not what's in our mandate right now, and that in order to achieve a result like that, there would have to be a process where there's a debate in Parliament, in the Senate, and there's clarity on what the mandate in the end would be. And we're not there yet at all in terms of having a sense of what his plans are

or what other people's plans are in this political debate. But is there a plan, this is speaking not as somebody who works here, but as somebody who listens to CBC, and this is for the audience. The question that I get from the audience is, what is the plan if that funding is cut? Is there a plan B for that? Or is that an existential threat to the existence of CDC? It is to some extent an existential threat because it wouldn't be the same corporation that we have today. There is a limit to how we can absorb budgetary change in the government

money that is attributed to us to manage every year. And so, yes, there are risks in many areas. Now, we have to consider there's a possibility that something happens in that line. And so, what would be left depends on how it's executed. Honestly, at this time, I wish I could reassure or give more detail, but it's really not in my hands. So we can prepare all sorts of ways, but in the end, it depends on what the decision is. Can I ask you about Regio Canada? It has very large support in Quebec. The TV service is something like a 23% share.

The French radio service is close to 25%. You contrast that to English television, has a 5% share, English radio, something like 14.6%. Are there things that English language CBC could learn from the success that Radio Canada has had? First of all, let's recognize that there's a history to those numbers. There's a history of a

market that has developed or media landscape that has developed something very special that's pretty unique also in the world, is a connection between what we call a star system with a lot of personalities that are very dear to people and that happen to be featured all over the media and not just at Razzou Canada, but also at TVA, at Nouveau. So we all work together to maintain the French media sector, all work together to maintain that special connection. To some extent, I think English radio has done very well. It's steady as she goes and it's gone through so many changes

in the media landscape. It still holds a very dear place in a lot of people's hearts. So, that's good to know. And when we talk about, you know, CBC is irrelevant or so, not we, some people say that. I mean, look at how CBC Radio is doing. But you're not mentioning English television, which is, to a lot of people, in their eyes perhaps, one of the big, I mean, I said 5% share, one of the big question marks that they have around that relevancy. Well, it's a tough market,

but CBC television does a lot to support Canadian production. Could it do more? Yes, it's all a matter of money to some extent. It all comes down to how much resource we have in order to do the work of not only investing and you know TV is one thing but you know the content now is ubiquitous right? It's everywhere, it's on Jem. It's on YouTube. It's everywhere. And the share of viewing time, the time people spend listening to conventional TV is declining in general. So the fact that we are following those trends and making

those content, those shows available on many platforms in many areas that people now use is where we have to be. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time it's gonna get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Let me ask you about another issue that's raised in the conversations around the future of the CBC, and this is around the issue of what's known as performance pay. These are bonuses that are given to CBC management. There was a controversy around how much money was given out in those bonuses, particularly at a time when there were job losses that were being discussed at CBC. What sort of damage do you think that did to CBC's reputation, that controversy?

Well, obviously it's been a hot topic. So it's unfortunate because it clouds all sorts of other conversations that should occur. So what the board of directors and the CEO have done is prior to my arrival is to ask for an independent report in order to see where we go from there. And this report will be available to us in the next little while, next few weeks. We will make a determination and hopefully go forward and put this conversation conversation to rest with something of a solution that will be, you know, considered appropriate. This has become a flashpoint in many ways and a symbol for people who want to defund

the CBC. Will you as the new CEO take a bonus? Well, my compensation is not determined by the CBC internal policies on compensation. I'm named and compensated according to government rules, and so my salary conditions are public. They're available on the government website, and that's all I'll say. But for you, I mean, again, it's become a personalized issue with your predecessor. This became about her and what she would or would not say when she was being asked these questions.

For you, understanding that this has been a flashpoint, I guess people would be interested to know whether you would take that bonus. And again, I'm reluctant to pry into people's compensation, but it's become a larger issue for the CBC, whether you would take that bonus. Well, as I said, let's first see where we go and then we can talk about what happens with me. But at this point, I've just started this job, so the issue of whether or not a bonus is available or should be awarded is not even an issue.

We're just about out of time. Let me just ask you, having just started this job, what does success in this job look like for you? Is it about ratings? Is it about something more than that? What is success for you leading this institution? Well, there's no question that we're facing real big uncertainty and we've touched upon that. So, success for me is renewing the lease, is making sure that we make a connection, not only intellectually with Canadians, that it is a good thing to have a public media, but also at their heart, that they value what we do.

What would you say to those who don't see that value, who don't see the CBC speaking to them, who don't see themselves either reflected in that, or they think, you know what, this is a billion dollars and it could go to something else. What would you say to them? Well, I would hope in time to change their minds, but it will never be unanimous. It's not the history of public media worldwide.

I'm used to that. There will always be a debate. There will always be people who say it's not the word, it shouldn't be a part of the mandate of a government to fund public media. And hopefully, I think they can respect that a majority of people feel that it actually enriches their lives. And that would be an achievement. You yourself admitted that in some ways, this institution faces an existential moment.

Do you worry about being the president who turns the lights out as you walk out the door? For sure. For sure. But I'm here to make sure that it gets through. That's what I was called to do, at least in my heart. You seem emotional about that. I am. I am. It's a big part of this country.

It's a big part of this country. It's a big part of my life. So I want to give back and bring it forward. And I worry about future generations as well. You know, what they're facing in terms of the new world today, misinformation, disinformation, how kids are growing up in a complex world in terms of defining who they are and what society they belong to. And I think it's an incredible tool that we have. So I want to make sure that it exists for future generations as well. I'm really glad to have the chance to talk to you on behalf of the people who listen to this program and those who perhaps don't.

It's important that you speak with them as well and I hope we have the chance to speak again. Thank you very much. Thank you. Marie-Philippe Bouchard is the new president of CBC Radio Canada. Your thoughts on this are welcome. You are the shareholders of this institution and so we would love to hear from you about its future and where it may go from here. You can email us thecurrent at cbc.ca. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca

slash podcasts.