The Current - The Current Introduces | Other People’s Problems, on psychedelics

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

Normally, therapy sessions are totally confidential — but this podcast opens the doors. In this season of Other People’s Problems, Dr. Hillary McBride explores the transformative power of psychedelics in a therapeutic setting.With her psychological expertise, Dr. Hillary leads her clients through drug-assisted therapy, guiding them to new heights on their healing journeys. Experience these real, unscripted sessions firsthand as they unfold in each episode.This season offers an unprecedented look at psychedelic psychotherapy, breaking new ground in the podcast space and demystifying this often misunderstood practice as a powerful tool in trauma recovery.More episodes of Other People’s Problems are available at: https://link.mgln.ai/1RjPLj

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Hello, we have a special bonus episode for you today from the brand new season of CBC's Other People's Problems. Real people, real problems, this season on psychedelics. Normally, therapy sessions are totally confidential. This podcast opens the doors though. In this new season of Other People's Problems, Dr. Hilary McBride explores the transformative power of psychedelics in a therapeutic setting. With her psychological expertise, Dr. Hillary leads her clients through drug-assisted therapy, guiding them to new highs on their healing journeys.

This season offers an unprecedented look at therapy using psychedelics and psychoactive drugs, breaking new ground in the podcast space and demystifying this often misunderstood practice as a powerful tool in trauma recovery. Have a listen. Hi everyone, Hillary here. This season of Other People's Problems is about therapy using psychedelics and other psychoactive drugs. I'm a registered psychologist in my home province of British Columbia and everything we've included is legal and I am licensed to do.

Okay. How's the medicine feeling in your body? So I think it's kicking out a little bit. I think so. Yeah, I can feel it. Yeah, nice. Okay. I'm Dr. Hilary McBride. This is a really special season of other people's problems.

These are real-life therapy sessions using psychedelics and psychoactive drugs. I don't think anyone has ever gotten to hear what these sorts of sessions actually sound like, so this is really important and new. And for this one, you'll hear me and my patient were calling Brandy. Okay, my name is Brandy, and I've been working with Hillary in therapy for over seven years.

This was probably my fourth or fifth time using cannabis in a session. For sure, the cannabis is helpful as a medicine, but the other medicine of this work is the connection that I have with my body and the connection to Hillary in our relationship. And those are really more powerful in this work. And the cannabis, I feel, just allows me to access those other connections and those other medicines much more easily than I could without using the cannabis. She had profound social anxiety

and had a history of religious abuse and trauma from her childhood. She'd grown up in a cult and her father was actually one of the main leaders in that cult. And as we started our journey of therapy, she became more and more connected to her queer identity. She since ended her marriage as it looked at that time and has been engaged in relationships with women and exploring that part of herself. And it seems at this point in our work, what we're doing is we're going back,

going back to places, places that still keep her stuck in spite of all the work that we've done and things that still live in her body, they make it hard for her to be connected to her voice and her power and her confidence. If you're ready, you can start by noticing, talking me through what you're sensing in your body. In this session, you're hearing Brandy and I do work that's a little different than some of the other sessions.

She's actually online in her home, and I'm in my office. And again, a reminder, as always, the invitation here is for us to try to set down some of the ways that you get away from experiences. And I'm going to help you with that container just by reminding you to ease up on movement and things like that. But if at any point it doesn't feel like it's working for you, you need to know that it can end, you can stop it at any point.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. I feel just a general tinglyzyness, but nothing really specific yet. Yeah. So even those little things like the wiggling of the toes and the swallowing, it may help to try to intensify what's happening. Close those doors. I feel like I want you to be there before I go somewhere. Yeah. Yeah.

I wanna be there too before you have to go there. I'm afraid. You're afraid, yeah. There's just this resistance to connect. Because if you connect to what might happen. Because we're gonna go and break these patterns that are really comfortable and old and normal. Mm-hmm. That feels great. Yeah. Because it might get harder. It might get harder.

Yeah. Yeah. As a child, I really had to live a lot of my life very dissociated and disconnected from myself and my body because of a very high control religious system that I was raised in. Not having caregivers to help me in those moments when I needed it most just built this serious distrust in myself. So I think I'm saying in this clip that it's scary to perhaps go back into things knowing that it will change. In my experience with this work, something has to change when you do this work.

And although I want it to change, it's very scary to change because it's a comfortable way that I've lived most of my life prior to this. They helped me even though they weren't necessarily healthy ways of being in the world, they did protect me and help me survive in a lot of ways. being in the world, they did protect me and help me survive in a lot of ways. The thing that I love most about what she says here is that I think she's being really clear about something that happens that a lot of people that they might not say out

loud, which is that the thing that is keeping them stuck is also kind of working for them in a way. And the idea of moving forward or expanding beyond the small worlds that we've created for ourselves, as much as that might be something that some part of us wants, there might be also another part of us that is not feeling ready for that freedom or that healing. And so we live in this tension of feeling like, ah, we really want something to be different, but it might be really scary if it is.

And my sense is that it is already actually quite hard even just to tell me about this. I want you to know there's nothing that we could face on the other side of this as we break the patterns. That would change how I feel about you. That would make me want to punish or hurt or shame or judge you. I just want to feel it with you and have me by your side so you don't have to be alone and scary feelings anymore. What happens inside? Did I say that?

I want you to come. Just don't really sense it yet. Yeah. So have what we hang out with this exactly as it is right now. And I'll be here waiting with you as long as it takes. Notice everything about what you're feeling inside. Free muscle. I just know it's going to get worse. Yeah.

Yeah. And when going to get worse. Yeah, yeah. And when it does get worse, you can draw on this connection that you and I have, and we can go right into the most awful parts of it together. None of this and none of what you're about to feel is about this moment today. All about everything your body was feeling

all that time ago. Sometimes it can get a little disorienting on psychedelics because people feel very, very, very scared. And my job as someone who knows her and loves her and has come to understand her story really deeply also knows that she's safe in her home, that she's actually laying in bed and I'm seeing everything that's happening and I know that her body is safe and protected. I'm wanting to be able to clearly outline that if the terror or the awfulness or the pain emerges It's because she's finally safe enough to go back to feel everything about what it felt like at that time

I had sessions prior to this where I wasn't able to ride that wave of intensity to the other side where I come out and into a very relaxed state of calm. And so I had some where it became so intense that I had to stop. And I believe I was feeling in this session that I didn't know if I was capable. Then none of it will hurt you, break you... even in its awfulness.

Well, you are with me. And I'm pushing you in wheelbarrow. And that's how we're to move forward. Okay. I can see that on your face. Yeah. I can see my legs again. I can see that.

I don't know yet where we're going. Yeah, let's just be in that. We don't know where we're going. I feel like you're in the front and you're facing forward because you're going to tell me where to go. Okay. I'm gonna tell you where to go. Really pay attention to those legs. All the energy in your body is moving

as you're pushing this wheel of arrow forward. Yeah. You're pointing but I don't know where we're going, but you're just pointing and I'm following where you're pointing. Yeah, that's right. The story will unfold, stay with your body if you can. Really try to keep that foot still if you can.

Don't let any of the energy out through that shaking, just see what happens. Where does the energy go if your foot won't shake? Just pulsing in the back. Wow. Really feel that beat. Feel the intensity of that pulse there. Right there. I'm with you. I can see this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Looks so uncomfortable. So tight in your body. You have a sense of what feels most scary about being here. I'm afraid I'll feel so embarrassed again around people. Yeah.

She just said, I'm afraid I'll feel so embarrassed again around people. When we think about what social anxiety does, we often think about the way that people pull themselves away from connection, isolating themselves, creating small relational worlds that don't expose them to these feelings that feel unbearable. And I think that one of the things that Brandi feels often when she's around people is embarrassed, scared, ashamed, uncertain, unsteady. My understanding is that she was made to feel that way a lot growing up and that when she's around

people it's almost like her body, her nervous system has learned to anticipate that how she's going to feel in the present with people is exactly like how she felt a lot growing up. Is this what it feels like to be embarrassed in front of people? Is this what happened in your body? I think so. Like I'm curled up in a ball feeling all just. Let your body show you just how small it wanted to make you. Stay with a group of people at our house like downstairs Sitting around table or just like a Bible study or something

You're all alone curled up in a ball in the closet in your room I Just want to snack Yeah Yeah, notice what this feels like you really want to snack, but you can't go down. Yeah, just like this. Like your body feel it. This is what it's like. Um, right there. Yeah, stay with it. I'm with you. I'm with you all the way in this. Your body's telling us just how awful it was Right, yes, yes

Are you pushing your feet together to stop them from moving Yeah Can see that. Good job, right? Notice where the energy is coming from and see what happens if they don't chatter up. I'm feeling angry. That's right.

I can't go down. I can't get this down. Yeah, yeah, you're angry. Feel that anger. Walk by everybody to get to the kitchen. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah, good.

Let it crunch you. Really let that anger do what it wants. It never got to do what it wanted. I can see all of this. There's nothing embarrassing about this. this. My house was a place where people were continually coming and going. My parents hosted a lot of people for various meals and Bible studies. And as a child who was typically shy, it was really difficult for me.

Just this constant overwhelm. And it felt silly, maybe, to say I just wanted a snack, but it involved me going past a whole group of people. I would sit at the top of the stairs and listen to see who was there, and there was so much talk about who's going to hell and who's not and who's saved and who's doomed and this type of thing. And I didn't realize until really quite recently that I might not have been that super shy child if I felt more comfortable with what was being talked about. One way to make sense of what's happening for Brandi is that there's actually a form of religious abuse happening, where people who are considered religious authorities and

religious leaders are using religious ideas and practices to oppress and harm not just her, but many in the community. This has long lasting impacts on people. I mean, the shame, the chronic shame that Brandi has felt, the fear about the future, the perfectionism and the sense of being surveyed. There are so many different ways that religious abuse can manifest in two forms of religious trauma. But one of the things that I see the most in people is this fundamental core belief

that they are bad. And not only are they bad, but it's actually because God wants them to feel that way. There's lots more that I could say about that. In fact, I wrote a book about it called Holy Hurt. But for now, what I want for you to understand is that she's been out of that community for decades and is still grappling with the messages that she learned about herself. A VP at HBO said no one would ever watch Yellowstone. Stephen King was rejected by 30 publishers, Charles Schultz was told he'd never make a living scribbling, and Missy Elliott was dropped by her label. The stories of famous names, their lesser-known rejections,

and the insights those rejections provide. We regret to inform you the Rejection podcast. Listen to Season 6 wherever you the rejection podcast. Listen to season six wherever you get your podcasts. What's here? Let it surprise you. You know, wheelbarrow and I'm pushing you down the stairs. Good. yeah. And right in like just smashing into the table where I'm sitting. Yeah.

It's a little hard to hear, but she says that she's got me in a wheelbarrow and that we're smashing to the table where everyone's sitting. Feel what happens in your body as you see that. That's right, let it build, let it build. Yeah, I see all that in your legs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And instead of pushing your feet down or together to try to stop the shaking, see if you can just tighten everything in your body to inhibit that. Close all the valves, use up all the energy. Good, good. I'm just screaming at my parents in front of all these people that they've ruined my life. Yeah, yeah. Feel that where that's care about all these strangers instead of me. Feel where that scream is coming from in your throat. Really stay with the sensation as you see that.

Feel, yeah, good. Right there, all that energy in that mouth and throat. I can see it. Feel what this is like in your body to have this much anger and energy. Just screaming, I just want a fucking snack. Good, good, good. Everyone's just staring at me.

That's right, show us, show them. Oh, it's my arms. Yeah. Oh. Let me stay with you. Good, good, good. Notice what happens inside when you can feel me with you. I'm not gonna leave.

Good. That's right. I'm not gonna leave and notice what happens. I just need to have my arms. Yes, what's holding them? They're protecting me. But I don't need that anymore. Good. Good. Notice what that's like. You are strong enough, you are connected enough, you are brave enough, you're yeah good, good right here, right here. I don't feel scared

anymore. Good, good. You've got a lot of power. That's right, you were scared for too long. You do not have to be scared. There's still standing right on the top of the table. We're still there. Good, of course we are. I can see those hands. Everybody else is scared now. Yeah, feel how powerful you are. Notice every ounce of power in your body.

Just notice just- You're gonna do something, I don't know what it is. Something to destroy the rope. Good, good. Yeah, I'm going to destroy the rope. See how I do it. We're going to destroy the rope together. So at this point, Hillary and I are standing on the table. My hands are tied and people are sitting all around us and there I can tell that now I'm

in this place of power and they're all afraid. And I don't know what's going to happen. All I know is that I really need my hands untied. And Hillary takes a violin string and wraps it around these ropes and yanks it and just breaks these ropes off my arms and frees me. And everyone's watching, kind of in horror. I can just sort of see them looking up like, oh, it's gonna happen.

To me, this feels like a quintessential trauma healing moment. If trauma leaves us disempowered and without agency, that going back to that memory and getting to do it differently and finding power and agency is exactly what she needs. And in the back of my mind, I also have some delight, like a little bit of an inner chuckle.

I am still constantly surprised at where we go. There is some humor to it. Just the kind of the outlandish things that sometimes come up when I do this work. There's often these very wild, interesting stories. I mean, the part where I'm pushing Hillary down the stairs in a wheelbarrow. So I just try to go with whatever comes in the moment.

And sometimes it's really wild and interesting. And later when I reflect, it might have more significance than it seems in the moment. And sometimes it's just silly and weird. I think in the cult-like environment that she grew up in, there was so much rigidity and control on her creative expression, that us being able to use the cannabis

to kind of allow her mind to go where it goes and to trust that it's gonna give us all sorts of imagery and metaphor and symbolism, I think that's healing in and of itself. What are you most noticing? A lot calmer. Yeah. There's so much tingling in my head. Yeah, I feel that.

Doing so well. This is how. Just pick up all the ropes. Yeah. And then go around and we gather all the Bibles around the floor. Yeah. Just tie up all the Bibles around the floor. Glory. Just tie up all of the Bibles.

Yeah. Just a big pile. Big pile, good. Your body knows what to do here. Just light the pile on fire. Good, see that? When the Bible is a sacred text, like any other sacred text, when people use imagery like this, it can be hurtful for some of us.

In fact, listening to this, I'm wanting for you to know that my understanding of the Bible isn't defiled by what Brandi is saying. Here, what I'm hearing Brandi say is that she's communicating to these people in her religious community, that the tools that they use to oppress and silence and abuse her are not gonna continue to function that way inside of her or in her life anymore.

And I think it's a reminder for us about all sorts of things that we call beautiful or things that maybe we love or value, that it's possible for us to take beautiful things and do really awful abusive things with them. Notice what happens inside as you see that. Notice that breath. I feel so calm watching her. Notice the calm.

The image can stay there, but I really want for you to feel calm. Our bodies are really good at resolving the intensity when they get what they need. Her body is telling us that the thing that was missing in the original memory has now been put into place. And when we get the thing that we need, when it feels like it's over, all of that emotional response, the impulse around making it right, that can settle down. Our breath returns to normal. We actually see that we can kind of move back to homeostasis. We can move back down to a resting, connected, neutral, wherein we know we're safe, we got through, and everything's right in the world now.

So I think a lot of these sessions, if you were to hear them or watch them in a video, would seem really crazy. It takes a really high level of trust in yourself and your body and in the person that's caring for you and guiding you through it. It's amazing to listen to this because I really didn't direct very much of it. You can hear that Brandy really trusts her body, she trusts her emotion.

I mean, you can hear the years and years and years of trust that we've built between us, where she just has a sense of knowing I'm there and I'm coming with her. And with Hillary, I developed that trust over time. It wasn't instant because of my own stuff. And I know that I'm in good hands and I can go to these really hard, painful places and

come out on the other side transformed. It's a really good calm. What makes it a really good calm? How do you know? My whole body feels so peaceful. Yeah. Wow. So in awe for the work you've just done. It's not different than doing it at night. Yeah, it's bright out.

Oh, yeah. Wow. Hey. Wow. Wow. Hey. Hey. You just did a huge chunk of work. I feel a little shaky. Yeah, you're gonna need like a,

probably an electrolyte replacement or something after this. That's part of this, right? On the aftermath of a huge piece of work, the Trembley is your body reorganizing. Yeah. I can't see you, but are you sweaty? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I'm you sweaty? Yeah. Yeah. So sweaty. Yeah. I really appreciate how scary so many things have been when I see the intensity that your body went through. You showed me with your curled up, contracted, contorted body how scared you felt.

How scared you have felt then and not so long ago. It feels good to have you witness it and witness the other side. Mm-hmm. Feels good for me to witness it too. Why was it your violin string? Like you took a violin string off your violin and just like, like snapped the rope. I loved it. I loved everything about it.

Is that a meaning for you? I don't know. I never imagined that before. It was industrious. It was like, there's nothing. Nothing's going to stop us. I'll do whatever I have to. I'll take a string off a violin.

Nothing's standing in my way. I don't know. It was very effective. So at the end, when you see us kind of laughing and debriefing a little bit about the session, that's really genuine. Like there's this feeling of, oh, we did this thing together. In my version of it, as you were telling me, I had like 1940s pilot glasses and a helmet and I was like, I didn't see that. It's really the complete opposite of what she learned growing up, which I think at that time was you're not allowed to stay connected to what's going on inside of you.

And it's definitely going to be a problem for the people around you, not just now, but in an eternal sense, if you trust anything about what's inside of you. I wasn't dragging you along. You were like, okay, we're going. Here's how. It resolves something. She has agency. She's feeling free and we're playing. And at one point I was like, I think I'm supposed to carry you on my back. You can hear the lightness and the ease in her in between us. It's such a hallmark of the bigness of the work and how this really resolved something for her.

You could point the way, but I had to do it. Maybe that was it. Yeah. I had to do like the real work. And that reminds me of our session this past week where you're like, I want you there, but I have to do it. Okay, you can't do it for me. I have to do it. The biggest thing that changed for me with this particular kind of therapy was this vast reduction in my social anxiety.

This work has been the most transformational and I've done many, many different types of therapy, but this work specifically has this sort of immediate transformational effect. Not fully everything fixed in a moment, but a lot of things. And so this happened about a year and a half ago, this session, and I can say that there's just been this steady progress in a positive direction around my social anxiety. And I would say at this point, it's I am unrecognizable really to the person I was then. When religious experiences, ideas, practices, and communities are used in oppressive and abusive ways, this hurts people and the hurt is real. A hallmark of religious and spiritual trauma is people being taught that they are bad and

they can't trust themselves. A colleague of mine, Dr. Preston Hill, talks about this as kind of spiritual gaslighting that leaders and communities make people weary of, and actually in some cases, repulsed by their inner knowing, that what's inside of them becomes so threatening to their sense of religious identity and community belonging, that they do

everything they can to disconnect from it altogether. So what I want is not for us to look at religion and say all religion is bad or all people who challenge religion are bad, not to do any of that, but to see how these good and beautiful principles can be used to harm people and that underlying some of our religious communities are the same systems that are underlying so many other patterns of abuse. Fear, control, shame, and fragmenting people from themselves and their bodies and each other and ultimately I would say from love itself. Other People's Problems is produced by Jodie Martenson, mixed by Julian Uceli and Lee Roservere.

produced by Jody Martinson, mixed by Julian Ucigli and Lee Roservere. Jeff Turner is our senior producer. Anna Ashite and Emily Kinell are our coordinating producers. The executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the senior manager and Arif Nirani is the director of CBC podcasts. For more sessions, there are five seasons of Other People's Problems available right now in our feed. And I'm Dr. Hillary McBride. This has been an episode, a brand new season of Other People's Problems. You can listen to more episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for Other People's Problems.

For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.