The Current - The literary icon who isn't Indigenous after all

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

Thomas King was one of Canada's best-known Indigenous writers. But it turns out he is not Indigenous at all. His books, including The Inconvenient Indian and Green Grass, Running Water were critically acclaimed and taught in schools. We speak to Anishnaabe writer and humourist Drew Hayden Taylor who considers Thomas King a friend and mentor, and scholar Kim Tallbear of the Sisseton-Wahpeton Oyate nation about why these kinds of revelations keep coming — and what needs to change.

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Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. For decades, Thomas King was a celebrated leading light in Canadian literature. His novels were taught in high schools and universities. His much-loved show, The Dead Dog Cafe Comedy Hour, ran for four seasons here on CBC radio. King's book, The Inconvenient Indian, was a bestseller, one of the five Canada Reads books in 2015. It helped drive a national conversation about reconciliation. He won numerous prizes, including the Governor General's Award, the Stephen Leacock Medal for Humor, and a National Aboriginal Achievement Award.

Well, that was then. This week, in an essay published in the Globe and Mail, Thomas King revealed that he is not indigenous after all, after being confronted by genealogical information that showed he does not have any Cherokee roots. Drew Hayden Taylor is a playwright and author from Curve Lake First Nation. He's co-director of the CBC documentary, The Pretendians. Drew Hayden Taylor, good morning. Good morning.

You consider Thomas King a friend. What did he mean to you as a writer? Oh, I mean, his use of humor in the indigenous community was revolutionary, basically. Prior to then, a lot of native writers were dealing with the tragic consequences of colonization. and Tom came in and basically introduced the factor of humor as a healing factor. And I personally thought of him as a, almost like a role model. I found his writing intelligent, humorous, well thought out, and I just was a big fan. And so what went through your mind when you learned the news this week about who Thomas King really is?

Well, there had been rumors around for a long time. I was just surprised it came out. It took so long to come out and that basically it was generating so much publicity, shall we say. I had even talked with him about the possible topic and he was very, very confident in his heritage at that time. So I was just sort of like something had to give eventually and something did give. There are, and we'll talk about this more, but there are some people in Inevitational. communities who are feeling angry and betrayed by the news. Do you understand that?

That's generally the news about any pretendian revelation. I mean, when it came out about Buffy St. Marie, you could feel the waves of disappointment and hurt to go across the country. Same, I think, with several other people like Joseph Boyden, et cetera, with Tom. Tom was like a grandfather in the native community. He's here for the longest time. He taught a lot, for a number of years. He shepherded in a new generation.

So, yeah, I can understand that sense. You mentioned the rumors, and I mean, Thomas King addressed those rumors and mentioned them as well in the piece that he wrote for the Globe and Mail. Do you think he should have addressed those questions about who he was earlier? I think so. It sure would have solved a lot of problems. But, again, he got his information from his father. and his mother

and I mean who likes to disagree with their father and mother so he was going pretty much on that and yes he should have checked that's one of the three reasons there's a saying

in the native community about talking about your indigenity one is you self-identify two you have a particular community

you can trace your lineage back to and three, that community recognizes you and acknowledges you. And I don't think, I don't know where Tom was with the last two. You mentioned Buffy St. Marie and Joseph Boyden. There have been others as well who high profile people, particularly within arts communities, who have turned out not to be indigenous after spending their careers working as indigenous people. Why do you think this keeps happening?

Well, one thing, people like to belong to a group. I love like-minded people. That's why people join motorcycle games, book clubs, all this type of thing, because they want to belong to a certain group with a similar interest. And let's face it, being indigenous in today's community as a sort of unique cachet.

Secondly, I do not really think this is Tom's flaw that you can make money that way. If you, you know, indigenous again, is popular, writing books, novels, whatever. as an indigenous author gives you a certain unique entry into that world. I think Tom is the victim of the third reason. One third reason is that being family lore. Your father, your grandfather, an uncle, whatever, says,

oh yeah, we have Indian blood, so-and-so, came from so-and-so, and they just accept it on face value. I think that's what happened with Michelle Latimer, who said she was from get-again Zibi, and I think somebody from get-again Zibi said, no, you're not. So I think that was the case. He just went on a strong belief in family lore.

One of the reasons, if I can go back to people being upset and feeling betrayed, one of the reasons that people are using those words in particular is because they feel that he won prizes and perhaps garnered attention that could have gone to actual indigenous people. The writer and scholar Nigon Sinclair has said that Tom King took up a lot of space in most conversations about indigenous people in Canada. And Thomas King wrote about that in that Globe and Mail piece and asked a series of questions saying, you know, did you benefit Mr. King from grants earmarked for native scholars? Did you trade on this?

Do you think the publications of your work prevented the publication of similar work by native authors? Did you benefit from being native in the job market? Do you worry about that, that he took up space? in that phrase? I think so. As I remember, the only real thing, I think he has to return

as an Aboriginal achievement award. It's hard to define he takes up how much space in what environment. Yes, he probably did take up a lot of space and hopefully those people will be around

to fill that vacuum again. So I think he's addressing the issue in the only way he can and trying to make amends. Let me play you something. This is the Cree journalist, Michelle Sisa, speaking with our calling Elamine Abdel MacMood yesterday on commotion. Their work was really popular, and I think it's worth interrogating of some of that popularity is because it reflected this idea of being indigenous that wasn't based in anything real that felt kind of like a pan-indigenous performance that may be reflected stereotypes or ideas that Thomas King or Buffy St. Marie drew on when constructing their idea of what being indigenous meant and how that.

meets the expectations of a country where people have very little lived experience or awareness of what indigenous people and indigenous cultures are like. Do you see where Michelle Sisa is coming from there? Was there something about his work that made it more accessible, if I can put it that way, to mainstream audiences? Well, he's a very talented writer, and I think he did. It was his use of humor, his use of place, because with a medicine, it was a medicine river, and a green grass running, Water is in a real place where he used to teach. He taught in Lethbridge for the longest time. So I think there was an understanding, a flavor, a way of communicating with public

that made his work highly enjoyable and highly prized as examples of, let's say it, indigenous literature at that time. He gave the Massey lectures for CBC in 2003. And, I mean, that book, The Truth About Stories is seen. I remember you did a thing after the Pretendians in which you asked a series of people within indigenous communities, what book they should take to a deserted island. And people picked that book. Right, yes.

Because, I mean, you keep forgetting many of the hats he wore. He was a scholar. He was a writer. He was a world traveler, all these different things that he would bring to his writing. And the thing about it can be an Indian, I have not read it in a long time, but it sort of brought a worldly view to to the journey many indigenous people are on. And again, encapsulated it in humor. And I would actually hesitate to say the word love in it.

There's nothing malicious in any of those books. So what do we do now? I mean, we're speaking about him almost in the past tense. What do we do with the work of Thomas King now? No, that's the question. Or as a fellow playwright once said, I, there is the rub. I think he's in that gray area.

People haven't been asking the same about Buffy's music and to lesser extent, Joseph's writing. I think there's still just a sheer enjoyment quality in his work. I think it should be taken out of the folder of indigenous literature per se and plopped down in just mainstream Canadian. I think he's like above all else, he's still a very, talented writer. He has something to say. He just cannot say it as an indigenous writer. Were you look at his writing differently now than you would have last week before these

revelations came out? As I said, I've sort of heard hints about this for the longest time. But essentially, yes, I would. I would say with listening to Buffy's music. I still have a lot of her music in the house. And when I hear it, I sort of, I've removed from the power of the music to a certain extent, understanding the origin of it. But, I mean, in the end, it's still powerful music, and Tom's writing is still very talented writing. Drew Hayden Taylor, thank you very much. You are welcome.

Drew Hayden Taylor is a playwright and author from Curve Lake First Nation. His books include, Take Me to Your Chief, Motorcycles and Sweetgrass, and his new novel, Cold. You can watch his documentary, The Pretendians, on CBC Gem. Hi, I'm Sarah Nicole Landry and I'm the host of the papaya podcast where each week I ask curious questions to people with incredible stories or expertise in their fields. I'm somebody who has found so much inspiration in storytelling and learning from them and I wanted to bring that to a podcast where each week we walk away learning something that might just

change our lives for the better. Check us out every Monday on the papaya podcast. See you there. Kim Tallbear is a professor. She spent 10 years as a professor at the Faculty of Native Studies at the University of Alberta, now professor of American Indian Studies at the University of Minnesota. Kim is a citizen of the Sissotan, Wapiton, Oyati in South Dakota. And she's in St. Paul, Minnesota this morning. Kim, good morning to you. Good morning. What went through your mind when you first heard this news about Thomas King? I similarly to Drew Hayden Taylor I had heard accounts of you know I know a lot of Cherokee people and scholars and I'd heard that this was probably something that was going on at least five years ago I'm not I've never read Thomas King I don't read that kind of literature so I don't have any sort of impression of him as a writer but because I study and am called to to comment to the media on pretending in cases, I had heard about this, and that's actually how I came to know who he was because of the stories that were circulating, that his claims were probably not supportable by evidence. He had written in the piece that he published in the Globe that his mother told him

about his roots, and he tried to track down his mother as well, tried to track down family roots, but they were unsuccessful. Do you think that he should have addressed those rumors that were circled? Yes, of course, especially since, you know, we've had breaking case after breaking case since 2017 with the Joseph Boyden case, you know, high profile cases. And I think somebody like Thomas King would have been able to recognize the pattern that they had stories in their family that were similar. And when you recognize those patterns, it seems like an intelligent person with access to resources to research this.

And many people in the Canadian and U.S. public can, this is internet research, even without a paid subscription to Ancestry.com, and even without certified genealogy credentials, you can do a lot to look into your genealogy. And I just don't believe that he really did intently research that history or he would have been able to find it. What is the harm that cases like this caused?

Well, I mean, I think that's been really hashed over in the media of the last couple of days, but to recap, there are, you know, there are awards he won. There are publication opportunities that he had. I wonder why, I think Canada as a nation needs to look at itself. Why is it continuously propping up and heavily rewarding these white people, you know, or white-coded people, if you want to say, who play Indian? You know, Thomas King, taught at the University of Lethbridge, that's Blackfoot Country. That's Alberta. There are so many First Nations and actual indigenous people whose family names are known, who are grounded in that place. Why is somebody like Thomas King being promoted who's making some claim of unconfirmed ancestry and a family mythology from Cherokee people in what is now the United States? And of course, half of U.S. Americans think they have Cherokee ancestry in these same family mythologies. And this has been written about and debunked by scholars and history and anthropology by Cherokee people themselves. Why is Canada continually doing this? And I want to ask the answer to that question,

but does it, is there a factor in that that he says he didn't know that he wasn't indigenous? Does that play into into that at all? If he says he doesn't know, how could he not know? How could he not know? This is a smart man. This is an accomplished writer. How could he not know? You know, genealogy is the second most popular pastime after gardening among North Americans. Every family has a genealogist. How many people among your listeners have an Ancestry.com account? In 1992, that may have been believable. That is not believable in the last 20 years. It's just not. So go back to the question that you asked. And I asked this in part because you and I spoke in 2023 around the revelations about Buffy St. Marie. Why do you think it is that

that in this country, this story keeps happening? I think because Canadians want to, we saw this with the Mary Ellen Trepel Lafon case, too, you know, Michelle Latimer, they want to see basically somebody who looks, moves, and talks like a white person who overcame, you know, this terrible history of discrimination.

I think because it helps Canada feel that, well, colonization can be overcome. And if these indigenous people aren't doing it, that's on them. because the opportunity is here. This is a mosaic, a multicultural nation. I don't think they want to promote the much more complicated voices and stories of actual indigenous people who are all around them.

I mean, that's the reason I came to Alberta was to be in a place that had so many indigenous thinkers and culture. It was a wonderful place to be an indigenous study scholar. And yet somebody like Thomas King, who thinks he might have a smidgen of Cherokee ancestry somewhere, or doesn't really know is, you know, a literary darling. Same with Joseph Boyden. What do we do, do you think about the writings?

I'll ask about the institutions, but for the writings of Thomas King, I mean, they are taught in schools, they are celebrated in indigenous communities and well beyond. What should happen with that writing now? Well, I mean, I speak as a professor who has to put together syllabi every semester.

I have had this problem with academic pretendians, and I take them off my syllabus unless I am teaching them to highlight a certain point where I still have to acknowledge their false claims. And so I no longer just teach them as if this didn't happen. And I do also look for scholars or writers who I can teach in the place of those people in different units. And again, Canada has a lot of indigenous talent, a lot. And so there are plenty of other people to choose from. And, you know, I would hope that publishers and institutions are really going to look harder at promoting a wider variety of voices.

What about those institutions, including here at the CBC? I mean, Thomas King, his work and the work of many of the people that we have talked about were embraced by institutions like this one right here. So what do they do to prevent this from happening again, do you think? I think, yeah, I mean, that's a good question. And we've, again, I work in the university. I don't work in media predominantly. And I will tell you within the university, as you know across Canada, they have instituted committees that are really thinking hard about.

What kind of policies do we implement that go beyond self-identification? Government has done that. Foundations and universities have done that in Canada. And that's been an arduous conversation, but people have had the courage to undertake it. And we now have policies emerging in universities and government where they're, you know, asking for verification. And they are working with First Nations community.

and experts to do this. I get where non-Indigenous people are nervous about how to proceed, but that's where you turn to your actual indigenous networks and you start figuring out how do we, because within indigenous communities, we ask each other all the time, oh, who's your uncle, who's your aunt? I know this person from that First Nation you say you're from, you know,

and we're not interrogating each other to try to see if we're legitimate. We're trying to establish relationships and kinship relationships. And so I think that is a really accepted practice and this idea that kinship and ancestry is private, that, no, it's not. It's not. And I get how non-Indigenous people don't understand that, but that's why you've got to work with, you know,

indigenous people that you know were actually from a place that you're close to. I mean, again, in all of these provinces and territories across Canada, there are indigenous communities, and they should be turned to to help institutions figure out how not to do this. Do you think we'll see more of these sorts of stories in future? We have to let you go, but do you think that we'll see more of these sorts of stories? of stories in future? Oh, yeah, there's more coming. There's plenty more coming.

Kim Tallbear, we'll leave it there. It's good to talk to you. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. Kim Tallbear is a professor of American Indian Studies at the University of Minnesota. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.