The Current - The new pope is an American. Here’s why that’s surprising

Episode Date: May 9, 2025

Cardinal Robert Prevost is the first American pontiff, choosing the name Pope Leo XIV. Jesuit priest and journalist Father Sam Sawyer explains why that surprised some people, as did the new pope’s social media rebuke, earlier this year, of JD Vance and the Trump administration’s treatment of migrants and asylum seekers.

How did the internet go from this? You could actually find what you were looking for right away, bound to this. I feel like I'm in hell. Spoiler alert, it was not an accident. I'm Cory Doctorow, host of Who Broke the Internet from CBC's Understood. In this four-part series, I'm going to tell you

why the internet sucks now, whose fault it is, and my plan to fix it. Find who broke the internet on whatever terrible app you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. Peace be with you all. The newly elected pope addressing the crowd yesterday in St. Peter's Square, Robert Francis Prevost, an American from Chicago, now known as Pope Leo XIV, will lead the world's 1.4 billion Catholics. It is the first time an American has filled this role. Today, Leo XIV held his first Mass as Pope in the Sistine Chapel in front of the Cardinals

who chose him and he started with a few words in English. Through the ministry of Peter, you have called me to carry that cross and to be blessed with that mission. And I know I can rely on each and every one of you to walk with me as we continue as a church, as a community of friends of Jesus as believers to announce the good news, to announce the gospel. Father Sam Sawyer is a Jesuit priest, editor-in-chief of the Catholic publication America Magazine. He is in Rome. Father Sawyer, good to have you back on our program.

Thank you for joining us. Thank you very much. One of the things I read this morning was somebody saying that the idea of an American pope for generations was unimaginable to some people. Were you surprised to see a pope pick from the United States? I was very surprised. But on the other hand, I'm a Jesuit. In 2013, I would have told you a Jesuit pope was impossible.

24 hours ago, I would have told you a pope from the United States was impossible. So apparently, I'm just terrible at predicting conclaves. Pete Slauson Why was that a surprise to you? Again, one of the other things I had read was that the idea of nationality and geography and the power of the United States prevented people from thinking that a pope from that country would be appropriate but would fit in some ways. So So what was at the root of your surprise? So I think there's a sense in the global church and just in places that aren't the United States generally,

that the US already has an outsize economic, political, military influence on the world. So one more bit of influence than an American pope would be seen as too much or not appropriate for the church, not helpful for the church. But really, Cardinal Prevost, now Pope Leo XIV, I think has the kind of profile that made it possible to look past geography because although from the United States, he has spent almost 20 years in Peru in a couple of different stints. He's actually

also a Peruvian citizen. He naturalized when he was named a bishop there. And he's also had this global profile in his work first as the Superior General, the prior general for the Augustinian order, and then in his role at the Vatican as the head of the office for bishops. So really, you know, an American, but belongs to the global church more than he belongs to the US Catholic Church. It was interesting yesterday, as he was unveiled, he did not speak English and he didn't actually reference the United States as well. To your point, he spoke Spanish, he spoke Italian, and there are many people who see him as a choice from Latin America because of the time that he

spent as a missionary in Peru. Yeah, and certainly, you know, from what we're hearing, the Latin American cardinals feel like he's one of their own. He was, in addition to his role at the head of the Office for Bishops in the Vatican, he's also the president of the Vatican's Commission for Latin America, so strongly identified that way as well. We actually, we did have to wait until this morning to hear him speak in his native English. He gave a little brief intro to his homily at the Mass in the Sistine Chapel this morning in English before switching to Italian for the full homily. This was a swift conclave, just over 24 hours before he was elected. Why do you think it

happened so quickly and why was he chosen? So why it happened so quickly, that is a great question and I will be fascinated if we ever learn the answer to that. But yeah, four ballots, it took, I think it was five ballots to elect Francis, four ballots to elect Benedict in the conclave before that. So it is a surprisingly swift conclave, particularly to get to someone who was not seen as one of the most obvious choices as they were going

into conclave. But I think it suggests that whatever happened during those general congregation meetings that the cardinals had between Francis' death and going into conclave, they actually did manage to sort something out because they achieved very significant unity and consensus getting to, you know, he got at least 89 votes during the conclave and from a group of men from all over the world who didn't really know each other

all that terribly well before they got here just a week and a half ago or so. He's been referred to as a dignified middle of the road in some ways. Do you think that, part of this is picking up on what we were talking about before the conclave began. This would be a referendum in some ways on Pope Francis. Is being a dignified middle of the road, is that helpful in this moment? I think it's very helpful. So, I mean, I think we saw two things in his first blessing when he came out on the loja yesterday. One was, if you notice the way that he was dressed, he wore that,

it's called the moseyta, that red cape with the stole over it, that Francis had not worn in 2013. So that's a nod to continuity with the tradition and the style of popes before Francis, and I think an indication that he's not trying to copy Francis one for one. But at the same time, in what he said, he thanked Francis twice, to great applause from the square both times, and he also referred to synodality, Francis' signature initiative, so very clearly an indication that he intends to continue with the processes that Francis set in motion for the Church. There are many people who are sifting through, and because of the world we live in now, sifting through communications, social media posts, and what have you to get a sense as to who

he is and how he might lead. As a cardinal, Robert Prevost had a documented history of critiquing, for example, US immigration policies, including sharing an article titled, J.D. Vance is Wrong, Jesus Doesn't Ask Us to Rank Our Love for Others. What do you make of that? Pete Slauson Well, I was surprised by it myself, in part, because in the post right after the one you just referenced, he actually shared an article I wrote. He did indeed. About the open letter Francis wrote to the US bishops about the Trump administration's

deportation program. So no, I think he's, you know, look, the Catholic Church has a very clear teaching on the dignity of migrants and the need for governments to respect that, and I think he's clearly fully aligned with that and isn't afraid to speak that truth to his own government, which is a wonderful thing to see. Yeah, so I also find it striking, he's clearly, even though he was in Rome while all that was happening, he was in his job at the Vatican and hadn't been living in the US for a long

time by that point, he's still keeping track of what's happening in the US and in the way that the US affects the global stage. Certainly coming from Latin America, the concerns about how the US deals with migration, he's going to understand that very well from the perspective of his people in Peru. Do you think that criticism perhaps will continue of what's happening in the United States in that, in his role now as Pope? I mean, I expect, I certainly don't expect him to continue retweeting things that I've written. That would surprise the heck out of me. Never say never. Never say never.

Never say never. But I do think, I mean, I think, so I think it will be in a more careful diplomatic register, you know, because as Pope, anything, anything he does in engagement with the United States will, you know, have the involvement of the Vatican Secretariat of State and the other diplomatic apparatus around the Vatican. But I think it will definitely continue. I don't think he's going to shy back from bearing witness to the gospel on contentious political issues. Pete Slauson He is, as a cardinal, like many members of

the clergy, has also drawn criticism over his dealings with priests accused of sexual abuse. When he was a bishop in Peru, there were two priests accused of molesting young girls. There were some accusers who claimed that the cardinal covered this up, the diocese has denied this, but there are allegations that the diocese paid something like $150,000 to these girls to silence them. What do you think this election says to the critics of the Catholic Church when it comes to how the Church over time, the sweep of time, has failed victims of abuse. Pete Slauson

So, a couple things here. First, I would say, so I don't think we know the full set of facts in the case in Peru that's being brought up right now, and I'm sure that'll be reported on over the course of the coming weeks. But I would have expected anyone who the Cardinals elected, anyone who's been a bishop for, you know, more than two days basically, and most of these men have been bishops for at least ten years or more, anyone who's been a bishop is going to have, there's going to be some concerns, frustrations, some allegations about how they've mishandled or not responded sufficiently to allegations of abuse and to the way the church deals with abuse, because the church is still in

the middle of figuring out how to respond fully to abuse. And I think one of the things that Francis certainly worked on but also did not complete was there's this legislation that goes under the name Vos Estis about how to hold bishops accountable for their governance of their dioceses and the people who report to them with regard to how they treat survivors and how they treat abuse allegations. So we have legislation for that that's new, but it hasn't really been fully implemented and road tested yet. And so I think we're going to see that continue to happen. But honestly, I would have expected some kind of concern about, did he deal with abuse properly for literally anyone that the Cardinals could have elected.

Let me ask you about one other issue that has been raised and this is reporting from the New York Times talking about when addressing bishops in 2012, Cardinal Prevost expressed disapproval of the LGBTQ community. He said that popular culture had created sympathy for, in his words, beliefs and practices that are out of odds with the gospel, including in his words, the homosexual lifestyle. Do we know where he stands? And this is important in part because to a lot of people it strikes a contrast to what Francis said, of course, in the famous, almost off the cuff line, who am I to judge? And so, the answer is we don't know really where he stands on that. So, I'd point out, of course, that's 13 years old, you know, as you said, it's from 2012. It's before Francis's famous, Who Am I to Judge?

The other thing, so, the real answer is we don't know, but what I would say is, so my colleague, Father James Martin, who works with us at American Media and also is the founder of the Outreach Ministry, which tries to work with the LGBTQ community and build bridges with the Catholic Church there. Father Martin sat with then Cardinal Prevost at the same table during the Synod on Synodality last October and has nothing but good things to say about him, really respects him, found him a generous, kind, very, just a man he really loves and respects and was thrilled to see him elected as Pope. So, you know, I think it's a wait and see.

You know, certainly he's going to hold to the Church's traditional teaching. I don't expect him to suddenly start innovating on the Church's moral teaching there, but I think the tone he takes, how he decides to talk about engagement with LGBT people and how to listen to them, I think that remains to be seen as pope, because we haven't seen anything from him that's been documented any later than 2012 on that question. I'm going to let you go, but just very, very briefly, when you say wait and see, what else will you be waiting to see in terms of how he will lead your church? Oh my gosh, nearly everything.

But a couple big things that are ahead for me, he's got to sort of establish what effectively we might call his cabinet, his administration. So he'll need to appoint Vatican officials, all of whom technically lost their roles or most of whom technically lost their roles at the death of Pope Francis. So what set of appointments he makes there will be interesting. It will be particularly interesting who he appoints to his own old role as head of the bishop's office. I'm also very interested to see, you know, there was supposed to be around the end of

May Pope Francis traveling to Nicaea to celebrate this major ecumenical anniversary of the Council of Nicaea, the 1700th anniversary. I'll be interested to see what his first international trip is and whether or not that stays on his schedule. Or whether he heads home to Chicago, for example. Well, and yeah, and then, thank you for the reminder, but yeah, when is he going to make his first trip to the United States? I'll certainly be waiting to hear about that. Pete It's great to speak with you again. I appreciate your time this morning, Father Sam Sawyer. Thank you. Fr. Sam Sawyer Thank you so much. Pete Father Sam Sawyer is a Jesuit priest and editor-in-chief of the Catholic publication

America Magazine. He was in Rome.