The Current - The "Nouveau" Louvre: How can the museum improve?

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

The Louvre is the world's biggest, most visited museum in the world - about nine million visitors a year — and it's getting a makeover.  Our conversation with the first woman to lead the Louvre, President-Director Laurence des Cars about the challenges of overtourism, their ambitious billion-dollar plan to modernize the venerable institution, the role of art and culture in 2025, and the future of museums.  

The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in Canada, and Google is helping Canadians innovate in ways both big and small, from mapping accessible spaces so the disabled community can explore with confidence, to unlocking billions in domestic tourism revenue. Thousands of Canadian companies are innovating with Google AI. Innovation is Canada's story. Let's tell it together. Find out more at g.co slash Canadian Innovation. This is a CBC podcast.

Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. It is the guardian of the Mona Lisa, the home of the Venus de Milo. It holds a breathtakingly vast collection of art and artifacts spanning millennia. The Louvre is the world's largest museum. It sits in the heart of Paris. Once the residents of kings, today the museum draws more than 30,000 visitors a day. 8.7 million people walked through its halls last year alone. But that crush of tourists year over year has taken a toll.

In June, the Louvre's own staff walked off the job forcing the museum to shut down. That museum is now undergoing a major overhaul. An initiative that will cost about a billion dollars over the next decade. Lawrence Descartes is the president-director of the Louvre, and she's with me in studio. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being here. Well, thank you for having me.

How would you, I was saying as you came in, this is one of those institutions where you can say the name and people will have an idea of what it is. How would you describe the institution that you oversee? Tough question. Well, it's obviously probably the most famous museum in the world, but what is interesting is that I think everyone has an idea about the Louvre. And the Louvre is not only about all masters and antiquity. It is also, I think what is fantastic with the Louvre, it's an idea of being open to the deep history of the world, to the different forms of beauty also, you know, through time, through different territories also. The Louvre is not only about French art, for instance. Half of its collection is about the Mediterranean and the eastern side of the Mediterranean.

So it is a complex institution by its history of its fantastic history, but it is a very relevant institution for today's world because it is, it can tell us a lot of things about our world and where we're coming from, including the complex issues, including the conflicts, including the difference of religions, for instance. all these kind of things you can appreciate through the beauty, the excellence of a collection of the Louvre and with a sense of relevance and deep, deep history that I think is quite exceptional and the place itself. I think it's the only museum in the world that can just balance the beauty of a collection,

the beauty of a building, which is, you know, dates back to 8th century. I mean, the first Louvre was a medieval fortress to defend Paris against the English, of course. You know, it was the question of the day at that time. And then it became a royal residence. Every king, every emperor, I would say almost every president has, you know, wanted to add something to the Louvre. So it's an permanent metamorphosis also, which is something that defines the Louvre also. What kind of responsibility is it to lead an institution like that?

You were appointed in 2021. It's a beautiful responsibility. It's a beautiful responsibility? It's a beautiful. It is a responsibility. I can confirm that. But it's a beautiful one. And I'm extremely honored to be at the head of its incredible institution.

It's the honor my professional life, obviously. And I feel compelled to, you know, add something to the loop, to get things better, you know, for our staff, for our visitors, for the beauty of our collection, for the building that is suffering right now. you know so yeah i i i we need to move forward and we need to transform the loo once again to you know keep up with the challenges that we were facing today you mentioned the fantastic success of luv i mean it's it's it's a good it's good news but it's good news that we should you know um we we need to make to make um improvements there because the problem is not to welcome nine million visitors or ten million visitors is to welcome in a bad way the visitors. And that's a problem. So let's talk about the

problem. You described going to the Louvre as a physical ordeal. This was internal communications that were leaked out, perhaps not something that you wanted to say publicly. No, I always said it publicly, you know. I made headlines. I'm but kind of director. So why did you use those words? A physical ordeal to go to this? Yes, it is. It is. Because if you just take, if you're a normal visitor, you You will have to wait. Even if you have pre-book your ticket, you will have to wait quite, it's a short time. You have to walk. And the fact that we have only one entrance, the pyramid, which is a fantastic masterpiece, architectural masterpiece.

But one entrance for such a large building is not enough. That doesn't sound enjoyable if you describe going to the museum as an ordeal. If you go and if you go to see Mona Lisa, which 70% of our visitors want to do, you will experience not exactly the most extraordinary museum moment in the world. I mean, it is quite an experience right now. But it is something that I cannot be satisfied as a museum director, that we are not, as I'm talking for the entire staff of the Louvre, is not satisfied.

This is a world masterpiece that should be, you know, looked at with a sort of, you know, peace and enjoyable moment, you know, beauty. And the reality is if you go now, you don't even, you know, you're taking the metro at six o'clock. But you don't even see the masterpiece. You see it through somebody's phone who's in front of you. You see the crowd waiting for it. And the crowd not paying attention to all the other masterpieces in the room, in the Sal Des Eta, where you have one of the most extraordinary Venetian collection of paintings. And that's not the way it should be, you know. Your own staff, as I said, in June, closed the doors to the museum. In a protest, because of the crowds, because they said it was...

It was not a strike in my emphasis. They just closed it down. They closed it down for a couple of hours, and they were emphasizing, you know, the fact that we needed to go forward, which is absolutely what we did. And you have to also keep in mind that it was the start of the summer. The summer is a very tough moment in terms of. of visitor experience and also for our staff because you have important crown of tourists

which is perfectly understandable and they were worried about the crowd coming and so we took emergency measures to relieve the pressure which happened Why do you think the crowds have gotten so out of control? Well it's the world in which we are living I'm not the one who can command that but I'm just observing things

I mean, when the pyramid was decided and designed, we were in the mid-1980s. This is the entrance pyramid. The entrance pyramid designed by Yeoman, Ping, and probably the symbol of a loo for many people around the world. Half of Europe, it was before the fall of the Berlin Wall. So half of Europe was not traveling. China was not traveling. I mean, it was an all of the world. And in the last 40 years, what you have seen is the rise of cultural tourism, which is,

everywhere now. And the problem that the Louvre is encountering now is I mean, you will find it in other cities, in other museum around the world. Look at Athens with a path and look at other cities, look at Venice, for instance. What do you make it? So Venice, the leaders in Venice and people in Venice,

we'll talk about the idea of overtourism. And it's not just in Venice, Barcelona, in San Sebastian, and there are folks in Paris who have talked about this as well. What do you make of that phrase? I do not like the word of tourism. I think that we have to face the reality and find solutions about that. It's, you know, we are not here to judge people who want to visit.

How can we judge them? We would love to share our masterpieces and to share the Louvre world. Well, that's, the Lou was designed for that. It was open during the French Revolution, transformed from a royal palace to a museum for the people, for the citizens and the artists. And with the idea of talking to the world about the recognition of the equality of artistic expressions. throughout time and history. So, you know, we welcome those million visitors and we acknowledge them, you know, and we thank them for being here.

Is there a limit, though? One of the things that the representatives in those other cities have talked to it is that they're overrun. Well, you know, that you can welcome people, but you can't welcome an unlimited amount of people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right now there's a limit in the road.

Three years ago, as a first signal of the problems of the Louvre, I decided to cap the number to 30,000. visitors daily, which was, you know, quite a storm when we announced it. I just noticed that a lot of institutions have taken the same kind of decision afterwards. Because it was a moment where I said, we cannot accommodate more people, you know, daily than 30,000, which is already a huge number. And there's always a physical limit. But the Louvre is obviously designed, can welcome once we do we have this new entrance the second entrance on the eastern side of the building in front of a colonnade will be absolutely able to welcome 10 and probably more million visitors you know there's no there's no problem

about that it is a question of organization you know what's the what's the place and the purpose of a museum in that context when it's a physical ordeal part of going to look at beautiful pieces of art is having a moment of contemplation, that you stand back, you admire, you think of, can you do that for someone's jostling into you? There's a selfie stick. There's people yelling. You are just, you are just pleading for my cause. It's exactly my point is that we need to give back a sense of purpose, a sense of pleasure to the visit to the Louvre. When you come at late opening on Wednesday and Friday, it's less crowded. And you see there's a much more relaxed atmosphere. You know, people are enjoying the collection, enjoying the moment in the Louvre. It's also a collective visit. People generally do not

visit the Louvre on their own. They visit it with families and friends, which is a moment that you share. It's a memory that you have, you know, in common with other people, which is very interesting for us for the future. You're confident you can do that with more people being allowed in. Yes, because we are rethinking the whole way. Because we are rethinking the whole way the museum is working and because half of the Louvre was not the object of the Grand Lou which was designed in the

1980s so I'm taking care of the other half and joining the two halves you will have a fantastic experience as a visitor, seemingly easy way to access and to enjoy the whole of the Louvre. The Louvre is not only about

three masterpieces, the Mona Lisa the Cemetery and Venus de Maido it's about an extraordinary diversity of collection, which is reflecting the diversity of the world and the history of the world. And it's really an open window to the world. So it is something quite exceptional

that people should enjoy in good condition and our staff should enjoy good conditions of work also. The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in Canada, and Google is helping Canadians innovate in ways both big and small. From mapping accessible spaces so the disabled community can explore with confidence to unlocking billions in domestic tourism revenue, thousands of Canadian companies are innovating with Google AI. Innovation is Canada's story. Let's tell it together. Find out more at g.co slash Canadian Innovation.

Okay, here's a few movies. Guess who is the common thread between them? Lost in Translation, Ghost World, The Prestige, and like a million. Marvel movies. I'm talking about Scarlett Johansson, the highest grossing actor of all time. Scarlett's directorial debut, Eleanor the Great, came to this year's Toronto International Film Festival, and I talked to her all about loneliness, forgiveness, and compassion, all themes in her new film. Find our chat on Q with Tom Power, wherever you get your podcasts, including on YouTube. What are you going to be doing? Just the last point on the Mona Lisa, there's talk of a separate, it would be in a separate thing with a separate,

The international competition for architectural design of a new entrance and the new spaces below the Courkare, including a gallery dedicated to Mona Lisa, is right now taking place. The jury will meet at the beginning of October for the first time and select five firms will be shortlisted to design and competition and the winner will be announced early next year. So it's really moving forward, you know, and the decision. has been taken to give Mona Lisa her own space which she deserves as our most famous painting and probably because there's a special

status of Mona Lisa. It's beyond a painting by Leonardo is something quite exceptional and I think it's high time that the Louvre addressed the special status of this picture because everybody else in the world does except the Louvre

right now which you know keeps on treating Mona Lisa like another painting of the collection, which is not, you know. And she, so we, we are imagining right now quite an exciting place, I think, for her. Very beautiful. It should be very beautiful. And it should allow you to discover one of its most extraordinary masterpieces by the Honardo. Is it a blessing to have something that famous in the museum?

Or do you worry, again, it's a blessing for the Louvre. Well, there's no question about it. But people don't see the other parts of it. I just wonder a lot of people will come and see that. What's my point? Again, pleading with exactly what I'm doing right now is that you will enjoy Mona Lisa in a much better way and be able to discover the other parts of the Louvre, which are fantastic. You know, we have extraordinary anti-collection, we have extraordinary decorative our collection. We just had this Louvre Couture exhibition, which was a fantastic success, more than one million visitors, discovering a not-so-well-known department of the Louvre, a decorative,

art department, which is exactly my point. If you change a little bit the way you address the collection, you attract people, you give a hand to the visitor and say, come to the Louvre and you will see something that you don't know. While you're here, looking at this, look it over here. Or come to the Parisian who went to the Louvre with their schools in their young years and say, okay, I've been there and I have seen it all. No, say, come again.

We have something new to tell you about the Louvre. There's always something new in the Louvre for you. The refashioning of the building is going to cost, what, more than 700 million euros? There are two parts in this operation. First, there's a technical renovation, which will be completely taken by the Minister of Culture and the Louvre, financially speaking, which is really the obsolescence of the technical equipment linked to the Grand Louvre project. It's more than 40 years ago. You can imagine the elevators, the, I don't know, the climate control system.

and whatever you're thinking about. And there is this other part of a building which has not been touched by the Grand Louvre. And, you know, it's an historical monument. It's what we call a monument historic. And it needs restoration in proven the roofs. You know, we have some leaks. You know, in every old house you have leaks.

But this is getting serious in the Louvre. And below, you have fantastic collections. So you really need to do something. So this is a big part of the project. The other part of the project, is really what this international competition for of architecture is about, is the design of its new access and the design of new spaces, including the Mona Lesa Gallery, under the Courtaire.

And that is almost half of the budget that you just mentioned. How do you make the case to the French public when the government is trillions of dollars in debt? That this is an important investment for... Because President Macron came to the Louvre, announce the whole project. This is completely supported by the Minister of Culture and by the president himself, which is, you know, very rare. And it gives you the importance of the Louvre, I think, nationally also, because the Louvre is a national jewel for France and something that goes beyond this country that talks to the world. It is a symbol of culture.

And the French people understand that? You will... Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. They perfectly understand it because we are very responsible. We build financially the whole project on our own resources, on fundraising, and that's it, you know. And with a very limited support of a state, which it will not wait on the public, you know, budget and finance. We know that we are going through a crisis, and we are very responsible about it. But we cannot, my responsibility as a director is not to say, oh, if there's no public money, we won't do anything. My responsibility is to convince the politics level that the Louvre needs really to move ahead that will be responsible about it and that we should take care, always take care of this jewel, whatever the context we have and the context is not an easy one.

Everybody knows that. But I do believe that more than ever we need places of culture. We need places like the Louvre and of a great museum, great theaters, operas, whatever you think about it. Culture is something that brings cohesion, that brings people together. And in this very fractured and violent world, I think it's more

than ever important to take care of those places to also envision them as tool to experience our common past, including, you know, the dirty pages, the wars, the conflicts, the differences. I'm not

saying that everything was okay in the past and not at all. But it's important to give a sense of perspective. We are dealing, I'm talking about the younger generation that is sometimes a little bit lost, you know, and needs reference, needs answers. And I think that people are looking also for answers when they come to places like the low of personal answers, too. So it is a responsibility for us to keep this heritage alive and to give it to the next generation. Part of that context is something that President Macron has addressed.

I mean, this was years ago, and he talked about France returning what he called stolen artifacts, particularly to African countries. There was an African art repatriation advisor that was appointed to the museum. In the context where people are thinking differently about where parts of the collection came from and who owns those parts of the collection,

What is her role going to be? And how do you think about the role of the museum in giving things back? We are precisely dealing with this project, this L'Uvre Nouvelle Renaissance, is also about giving new perspectives, new narratives about our collections, explaining why they are there, you know, and the history of it. And when there's something wrong about an object being able to, you know, give it back, but when there's something wrong? But when it's about history, and it's a complex history, you need to explain the archaeological

collection, for instance. It's less about African, you know, works of art than more about archaeology in the Louvre. I mean, Muse du Camelholy is dealing with Africa mostly, but we are dealing with those archaeological collection, but also with, you know, the Nazi looting during Second World War. I mean, this is also something. something that French Museum have been working very actively over the last years, giving back to the hairs of the families, you know, what they own. And rightly to them, you know, what they should have owned. So we are working a lot.

I mean, the museum world has changed tremendously about those questions about the last 20 years. And I think that it's something that is not a debate anymore, I would say, within the museum community. You know, I am, you know, I work with my colleagues all over the world. I am known for being quite international in my way of seeing things. And what I see is that all museums align about saying, you know, when there's something wrong with an object, we should, you know, move forward toward, you know, restitution or whatever. Do you feel like you have a responsibility?

I mean, again, when the president uses a word like stolen intentionally, do you feel like you have a responsibility to return things? We have a responsibility. We need also the legal vehicle to do it. It's why France has voted recently two lows in the parliament to, in order to facilitate these restitutions and very rightly. You know, I'm very much open about these questions. And I think that every museum in the world, every director of the museum and world is very much aware of this and trying its best, you know, to deal with this question. But that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that I am not a support.

or what we call universal vocation of the Louvre. I think it's very important to have objects from different cultures in different places. I think it's very important

that France is still able to show African art that African art can be present in Louvre Abu Dhabi, you know, fantastic in the

heart of the modern Arab world. And I think that it's very important that French art is present in American Museum. I'm not bleeding for the impressionist to get back to Paris, you know. That would be so stupid. I mean, artists and works of art are always traveled.

There's always connections. And when you look at the long-time perspective, the reality is a moving one. It's not a static one. It's always a moving one. So objects have always traveled, work and artists have always traveled. Sometimes how they travel is different, though, right? I mean, something being solved or something being taken from another culture. It's very true.

But it's also very true that there's no creation without a sort of hybridation. Does that change how people think about, just the last couple of questions here, does that change how people think about museums in the 21st century? Probably, you know, the big revolution of a museum of the last 40 years is about the public. Museums were all about collections until probably the end of the last century. And there was this call for listening to the visitors, you know. experience, listen to the audience, but what they want to do, what they don't want to see, what, you know, the comfort of the visit, but also the narratives about the

collections. And so the Louvre, New Renaissance, will take into account this, which the Louvre, the Grand Louvre in the 1980s didn't take into account, which is natural. I mean, it was a new, a new request and a new vision for a museum. And I think it, now we need to have in the Louvre a more balanced vision between the beauty of the collection, the visitors' experience, and extraordinary building around them. You have, just finally, you have, unlike the millions of people who arrive, the opportunity to experience the Louvre in a very different way. Is there, do you have a favorite place in the museum?

Do you have, is there somewhere when it, when, you know, as you say, when it's, like the favorite work of art in the collection, you know, it's a tricky one. A place that you go that is, is a place where you. you can have that moment of contemplation. You know, there are many, many places. And I'm discovering them, you know, sometimes you're caught by the beauty of a place and of a moment, you know, with just a ray of light, you know,

on a sculpture or in a place. But there is a gallery that I have a special fondness, is Sal de Cariatide. It is about the Louvre Renaissance. And it is an extraordinary place where the Valois, the former, you know, kings of France, were having their balls. where Louis the 14 attended a performance by Molière

in front of him where a lot of things happened and it's a beautiful sculpture gallery dedicated to antique sculpture right now but it has this double exposure to the sun on the east and on the west so you have the sun in the morning and you have the sun in the afternoon

and it's just a perfect place A perfect place It is a perfect place It's a pleasure to meet you Thank you for being here Thank you so much for having me Lawrence Descartes is the president-director of the Louvre The first woman to lead the museum

since its creation in 1793 You've been listening to the current podcast My name is Matt Galloway Thanks for listening I'll talk to you soon For more CBC podcasts Go to cbc.ca slash podcasts