The Current - The top EU diplomat navigating shifting global alliances

Episode Date: March 14, 2025

Donald Trump’s return to the White House has strained his country’s alliances with Canada and the EU, while drawing Russia closer. As G7 foreign ministers meet in Quebec, guest host Mark Kelley talks to Vice-President of the European Commission Kaja Kallas about navigating this shifting world order.

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This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media. You should be thanking the president for trying to bring it into this conflict. Have you ever looked into Ukraine that you say what problems we have? Everybody has problems. Even you, but you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future.

God bless, God bless, God bless, you will not have a war. Don't tell us what we're going to feel. US President Donald Trump and Vice President JD Vance on the offensive at the White House against Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky. It was just one in a series of events that show how relations between Europe and the United States have changed, including Donald Trump saying the European Union was, quote, formed in order to screw the United States, end quote, and excluding Europe out of peace talks around the Ukraine war, while bringing Russian president Vladimir Putin in closer.

Kaya Callas negotiates all of this, as the EU's top diplomat, the high representative for foreign affairs and security policy for the European Union, and vice president of the European Commission. She's in Charlevoix, Quebec for a meeting of G7 foreign ministers. Ms. Kallis, hello.

Yes, thank you for having me. After that nasty exchange in the White House, you posted on social media reaffirming the EU's support for Ukraine, but you added, you know, provocative words. You said the free world needs a new leader. Why did you say that? Europe definitely needs to step up because we are standing for the principles of territorial integrity, sovereignty, the principles that are enshrined in the UN Charter and the principles that are core for the international rules-based order, really where it's a rule of law, not the rule of power. I think these are the principles that we stand by,

and these are also the principles that are at play right now in Ukraine. And yet, as we speak, the US is front and center negotiating a 30-day ceasefire with Russia. They are at the table, the EU is not. Do you trust the United States to negotiate a deal that is in the best interest of the EU and Ukraine? Well, for any deal to really work, there has to be Ukraine and there has to be Europe around the table, because this war is on European soil, so the implementation of any deal, you need the Europeans.

And that's why all these conditions need to be negotiated with us. And I was just in the room with with Secretary of State of the United States, Marco Rubio, who said that all conditions will be discussed with us beforehand. You've already voiced your concerns, the US will make concessions to Russia, for example, blocking Ukraine's acceptance into NATO. You said making concessions to Russia is like the US making concessions to Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden after 9-11. So clearly, you do have some concerns about what the US

is going to put on the table. No, we definitely know how Russia operates. And therefore, our worry is that we are not walking into any kinds of traps that Russia is setting up, really imposing conditions that have broader consequences. And therefore, we really need to look out to those, what is agreed, but also what is followed by Russia. Because but also what is also followed by Russia, because the practice and history has shown that Russia is not really good

in keeping the ceasefire agreements. And so, I mean, the conditions presented by them are also, you know, we have to take them with how they are. They're trying to really have the leverage for themselves. But what I want to stress is that it's not only a question of security of Ukraine, it's a question of security of Europe, but actually security of the whole world. Again, if aggression pays off in Ukraine, then it serves as an invitation to use aggression elsewhere.

When we talk about China, when we talk about Iran, when we talk about North Korea, and different actors that have appetites for their neighbor's territories. And Vladimir Putin says he's open to discussing this ceasefire, but he asked a question. I want to put that question to you. He says, who will police a ceasefire? Well, that's why the Ukrainians were proposing first the ceasefire on air and sea, because that is very well monitored, whether this ceasefire is air and sea, because that is very well monitored, whether this ceasefire is breached.

The border of Ukraine and Russia is thousands of kilometres. So if it is a broad ceasefire, then it's very hard to police or monitor who is breaching or not not preaching this ceasefire. But I think, you know, right now, Ukrainians have made it clear that they are willing to, you know, enter into this kind of ceasefire. And like Secretary of State Marko Rubio said,

the goal is now in Russia's court. Really show that they want to have this ceasefire. You said this week at the UN, the world is more dangerous now than it has ever been since the Cold War. Now, you were the former prime minister of Estonia, next door neighbor to Russia. Does your country see a clear and present danger of being annexed by Russia? No, this is not the question of those countries who are in NATO, really, because Russia has

not attacked NATO. In NATO, we don't have any second or first or second class countries. We only have NATO countries and we have Article 5 that says that attack on one is attack on all. But Russia has other neighbors, neighbors like Moldova, neighbors who have critical raw materials like Kazakhstan. So if Russia is still investing more than 9% of its GDP on military, they will want to use it again. So it's up to us to make sure that they,

the conditions are such that they will not use it. It's also up to us to, you know, make more investments to our own defense so that it would deter Russia from attacking again, because they can see that they can't win. But that only happens if we are strong enough. And therefore, we need to make steps also on our side. MAX WIETHE. You're at this meeting with the G7 ministers. You mentioned you're sitting at the table with the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio His president donald trump has launched a trade war with canada and with the eu

What specific first step should canada and the eu be taking now to strengthen economic ties in the face of this trade war? Well first we want to stress that there are no winners in trade wars. I mean, in, you know, if European Union, US and European Union, Canada, you know, there are trade wars between us, then eventually, who is benefiting from this is China. And who is not benefiting from this is our companies, our economies and our consumers because it will raise prices. And looking down in the history,

you have seen this kind of tariff force leading into depression and really a very bad economic situation. So, I mean, we don't want to enter into this kind of trade wars, but we are very clear as well that we need to, you know, defend our interests if such wars are launched against us. Of course, we are trying to convince our American partners that it's not good to have trade wars or tariff wars between us. But right now, I mean, we are acting on the basis of,

what are the actual legal proposals, not only the statements that come out. Because there is so much happening all the time that we need to also keep a cool head. Marco Rubio has said he doesn't want to talk about tariffs at this G7 meeting you're currently attending. Do you?

Well, yes. It's a bit strange. We have these very good conversations inside the rooms when it comes to Ukraine, when it comes to China, all the threats in the world that we have. And at the same time, we are reading the news when it comes to putting 200% tariffs on champagne and wine. So it's like two different movies. But yeah, we also have different people who are, of course, dealing with the tariffs. We have the trade people who are working and reaching out to American counterparts.

So we really on the agenda. We don't have it, but we can't escape the discussions either because these things are going on. Kayakalas, I know you've got to get back to your meeting. Thanks again for making time to speak with us. We appreciate this. Absolutely. Good to be here.

Thank you. All the best. Kayakalas is the High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy for the I appreciate this. Absolutely. Good to be here. Thank you. All the best. Kaya Kalas is the High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy for the EU and Vice President of the European Commission. I'm going to hold your hand when I say this. This is not the time to avoid the news. There's a new administration in the White House.

Canadians are about to get a new Prime Minister. And how we address global trade, foreign wars, and the climate, it's all changing fast. I'm Marcia Young, weekday host of World Report, and I'm here to help you stay on top of the news in just 10 minutes. Find and follow World Report everywhere you get your podcasts. Roland Paris is a professor of international affairs and the director of the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Ottawa. He is a former advisor to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

He joins us from our studio in Ottawa. Roland, thanks for being with us this morning. Good morning. What you make of what Kaya Callas is saying, she's trying to thread, it seems, thread the needle here on saying that we want a voice in what happens in these global affairs, specifically with Ukraine, but is the US actually listening? Well, we'll see.

And this is one of the most difficult parts of this difficult moment for America's allies, is not knowing exactly what the US position will be on any given subject, given that President Trump seems to continue to change his mind. But I think what we heard was an attempt, as you said, to thread the needle. She mentioned that it's almost as though there are two different movies taking place at the same time. And I think that that's a reflection of the attempt by US allies to try to keep the US engaged in its longstanding commitments, including to NATO, including its longstanding project of trying to work with allies, something that Donald Trump has turned upside down, while

at the same time pushing back hard against American economic threats. And it's this weird dualism that we're going to be seeing now for a long time, I think. And the G7, I mean, this is the foreign affairs that the leaders will be meeting later in Alberta later this year. They always want to present a common front. You know, you always see the photo up of this unified group. But let's be honest, they're not unified right now.

There's no mystery about that. So how does that weaken the G7's position towards specifically Ukraine? Oh, it certainly weakens the G7. It calls the G7 into question. It has called, to some extent, NATO into question. It's certainly called the US relationship with all of its traditional allies. It calls the West into question. It certainly called the US relationship with all of its traditional allies. It calls the West into question. It raises additional questions about

what kind of international order will be emerging now because we're living through a remarkable period where the old order is being disassembled incredibly quickly. me America's allies have an interest in both defending themselves and doing whatever they can to keep the United States at the table and I think that's what you see at this G7 meeting where they're talking about a common security interests including maritime security including avoiding the sabotage of undersea cables in the Baltic Sea in the East and South China Seas. These are areas where the United States and its allies might still have common cause.

But in parallel, there's another movie taking place, to use her phrase, which is this escalating and remarkable trade war. Kaya Callas says in the past, Russia has not been good at keeping their promise when it comes to ceasefires. So in your opinion, with your experience, do you think Russia can be trusted in these negotiations? There is no way that Russia could be trusted to live up to any ceasefire in Ukraine.

And that's why what's absolutely essential, if there's going to be any kind of stable outcome out of a negotiation, is that there be a very strong deterrent for Russia to renew its war in Ukraine, because its long-term goal is very clear, at least that of Vladimir Putin. It's to transform Ukraine into a puppet state, and that means really destabilizing the government of Ukraine

and essentially turning it into what Russia has already turned Belarus into, which is a satellite state. And that will involve continued threats of military force while Russia is also trying to reestablish its at least political dominance over areas of the former Soviet Union, which poses a threat to NATO. So there absolutely needs to be a strong security force in Ukraine after any permanent ceasefire. And this is the discussion that's taking place, and the question mark is what role the United States might have as a backstop to that force. And who would make up the...

You say you need a strong deterrent, you need a security force. Who makes up that security force? Well, first of all, you need an agreement, but the possible participants in a security force are already emerging, and it's a kind of coalition, it would be likely a coalition of the willing, a subset of NATO members in this force. If it was there, it wouldn't be operated by NATO itself. But the UK and France are at the lead of those discussions. You hear the Baltic states, the Nordics, Poland, and others expressing an interest in the idea. You've heard Canada saying, we want to at least be part of the discussions. But the key question is, will the United States provide some very specialized military capabilities

that would be needed for such a force? One of them is American air power. So that would be that so-called backstop. You don't need U.S. forces on the ground. The other thing is U.S. intelligence, because the ability of the United States to be aware of what's going on in the battlefield, in communication spaces, its intercepts, that's absolutely essential as well. Another conversation that's going on at the G7 right now is for Canada, engaged now in this trade war with the US, is starting to look overseas at Europe and saying we've got

to do more. Melanie Joliet-Kennedy is Foreign Minister. It's just saying this morning that Canada wants to be closer to Europe and the UK. Mark Carney, our soon to be new prime minister, is going to London and Paris next week, as prime minister reports say. How much can we gain there? What do we need to do in these negotiations in building ties with the EU right now? Well, first of all, let's put this into the context, which is that the economic threats by Donald Trump against Canada has really shone a light on the importance

of doing a number of things within Canadian policy, both at home and in terms of our foreign economic policy. In the latter, that includes deepening our trade relations with other parts of the world, especially with reliable partners. There's no more reliable partners than the members of the EU. Europe is home to the closest democratic allies of Canada in a world where we have fewer friends. We have a clear interest in the security and stability of Europe. Some people talk about joining the European Union.

I think that might be a bridge too far, but we already have a free trade agreement in place. There are opportunities to deepen trade and there are other things we can do together. Europe and Canada are both on the verge of a massive reinvestment in their defense capabilities. I think we could look at coordinating those investments so that it's not just about military policy, it's also about industrial supply chains. We can work on emerging technologies together.

I don't think we want to be exclusively reliant on the United States for, for example, artificial intelligence. And I think that we could probably have an even closer conversation about responding directly to these Trump tariffs. Well, you meant The Economist magazine, you brought this up about the joining for Canada joining the EU. The Economist magazine suggested that Canada should join the EU because the EU also has protectionist policies around their economy. But you think that's a bridge too far.

Why so? Well, I wouldn't poo poo the idea entirely. I understand where it's coming from and we do absolutely need to deepen our connections with our friends. And I mean, there is some remote chance that we could move in the direction of an EU membership, but the complexities of that would be enormous. For one thing, every EU member has to agree and technically, you know, we're not European, although I guess we have a like 1.4 kilometer border with Denmark in our Arctic at Hans

Island. But the real challenge is the massive task of aligning Canadian laws and regulatory arrangements with those of the EU. That would take years anyway, but it's not necessarily in ultimately in our interest because we want to remain in interoperable with the United States and with other markets. And fundamentally, we can reduce our vulnerability to American coercion, but we're not going to. We're still North American, and we're absolutely going to have to continue to see the United States

as our principal economic partner and try to work through the current crisis. Roland Paris, last July, in light of the Russia-Ukraine war, you wrote that Canadians must face a difficult truth. Our military needs to prepare for war. Where does that idea stand today for you? Well, I think there are, when I said that military needs to prepare for war, I was talking

about the changing security context and specifically about the growing threat of Russia to European security. And my call was not for war, it was that by preparing, by establishing a Canadian military that is capable, better able to potentially function in a high intensity war environment that we and our allies will be in a better position to deter such a war. But it's not just Europe, we have to be thinking about our Arctic as well. And this is something that has been on the minds of Canadian security officials and observers

for a very long time, but the Arctic sea ice is melting. There will be greater geopolitical competition in the Arctic. There will be security challenges there. There will be attempts to exploit the resources. There will be on increasing challenges to Canadian sovereignty. And if Trump remains in awe or Trumpism remains in power in the United States, you know, it's

possible at some time that the US president looks at the Northwest Passage and decides to more overtly challenge Canadian sovereignty there as well. It is very much in our interest to establish sovereignty or strengthen our sovereignty presence in the Arctic. It is frankly what the United States wants us to do anyway to help protect the kind of North American space, but it also gives us the capabilities to push back against the potential for the United States to challenge – for the United States in addition to other countries to be challenging our sovereignty Yeah, just one last point and just picking up on what kayak. Hollis had said from from the EU She said you that the free world needs a new leader now

Where should Canada be looking for international leadership right now? Well, you know, this is as I mentioned at the at the top of this interview we're really living through this extraordinary moment where we're seeing a reordering of the world and the demolition of the world that we've all lived through, but we don't know what's emerging. To paraphrase the Italian political thinker Antonio Gramsci, the old is dying, but the new is not yet born. And so in the meantime, we need to be doing two things. One is very much attending to our own urgent and core interests, which are our sovereignty, our economic security, and and then secondly working in common cause with other countries that share our values and our interests, and that includes Europe. And then thirdly, our interests and that includes Europe. And then thirdly, continuing to work the US political system at all levels from

Washington state local government to identify those actors within the United States who have common interests with Canada. Because eventually, my hope and expectation is, eventually this fever in the United States passes. We won't be going back to the old United States, but I think that this self-destructive period of Trumpism eventually will pass. We need to get through that period no matter how long it takes. Yeah, all things must pass.

Roland, always good to talk to you. Appreciate your time. Thank you. Thanks, Marc. Roland Paris is a professor of international affairs and the director of the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Ottawa. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.