The Current - The transformative power of cheese and mongering

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Long-time CBC Radio host Michael Finnerty shares how training as an apprentice cheesemonger in London's Borough Market nourished his soul, gave him a sense of purpose and helped him rediscover the power of community. He talks about his new book "The Cheese Cure"  while taking Matt Galloway on a tasting journey through the sampling of four Canadian cheeses.

This ascent isn't for everyone. You need grit to climb this high this often. You've got to be an underdog that always over-delivers. You've got to be 6,500 hospital staff, 1,000 doctors, all doing so much with so little. You've got to be Scarborough. Defined by our uphill battle and always striving towards new heights. And you can help us keep climbing.

Donate at lovescarbro.cairbo. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. It's 3 a.m. Your sound asleep, the first alarm goes off. By 4 a.m. you're on the night bus, reading through the morning news on your tablet. 5.30 a.m. The light goes red, the microphone goes live, and you are on the air. For 13 years, Michael Finnerty hosted CBC Radio's daybreak program in Montreal. It was his dream job, but he was tired.

languishing, he says. And so he decided to take a six-month sabbatical and train as a cheesemonger in London's borough market. Six months became nine months. Now six years later, he continues to work part-time both in Canada and in the UK on the radio and as a cheese monger. His new memoir is called The Cheese Cure, Halcomte and Camembert fed my soul. Michael Finnerty is with me in our Toronto studio. Good morning. Yeah, what a pleasure to be back in the studio with you, Matt. Thank you very much. We should, I mean, for full disclosure, just I've known you for a long time. Yeah. And we have eaten cheese and talked about these matters.

We did the same job. And shared. Not the same show, but. So tell me about that. I want to get to the cheese bit. But tell me about where you were. This is a dream job, as I said. And the job can be a lot of different things.

What were you thinking? What were you doing? Where were you at in the job? It was a dream job hosting the morning show in Montreal. every single day that I was on air. And it was that dream job until the very last day. It's just that how could you invent a way of doing the job where all the information, all the knowledge that you need to do the show

could just kind of appear in your brain before you went on air? That's the trick. It's the everything that came around the show began to eat my life. And that was the struggle. All those things that you mentioned about getting up early and all the homework that you have to do and how you're never switched off, that seemed like sort of war stories and that's part of the job. But by the end, when you're excusing yourself at 8.30 at a dinner with friends to go sort of lie down on the sofa, it becomes less fun. And the metaphor that I use in the book

only occurred to me later, of course, but is of this giant wheel of alpine cheese, 40 kilograms, say a comte or a grueger, and cheesemongers, but not just cheesemakers. as well, we'll stick a cheese iron into it and take a sample. And they do that regular to figure out how it's tasting. And sometimes that amazing wheel of cheese that can be two years old that has come from the most amazing alpine pastures and cows, happy cows, that with the big bells and all the love that goes into the recipe and carefully turning over the cheeses and washing them despite all of that. Those cheeses can, they go flat and they can lose their taste

and people don't know why. And that's kind of what happened to me. You don't say that you were burnt out. You say you were languishing. That's a word that people use often now to talk about, I mean, how do you describe what that means? Well, what's the difference between the two? I think it's so important because I want this book to speak to people and I am not here to say that I burned out because I know people who burned out and it doesn't look like this. I was functioning well. I think the show was doing really well, even at the very last day. But there was this flatness, the colors kind of seeping out of your life. And I just was going through the motions. And it kind of occurred to me one afternoon. Friday was my big escape. I would go to the

cinema. And there I was happy and released from all the pressure until the credits rolled. And one day it occurred to me that that's it, those are my two hours of escapeism for the entire week. You once told me that it felt like you were covering the world, but not living in the world. Yeah. I think that's fair because you take, you just do the same thing. The way, part of the way to survive that job, as I think you know, Matt, is routine. And you just go through the motions. And you have to try to check yourself whenever you can. But it's survival. But it also over the long term leads to this state of languishing. And so you decide you want to make a change.

Why cheese? Yeah, I mean, why cheese? That is such a good question. I think in retrospect, it seems obvious. I think when it happened, I mean, I tried a couple of other things. I needed to do something. I was on a sabbatical. It wasn't paid.

I was in London. I needed some money. You also were wondering, like, what could you do? Exactly. What were the skills that you had? Well, here's the thing. And I think for people who pick this book up and who are in Korea, where they have

sweated to get there and their parents maybe have paid loads of money for them to get to those careers and then suddenly there they are and the magic is gone it's like what else can I do? You start to think this is all I've trained for

and that's kind of, that is where I was I thought what else can a radio presenter do? Someone said to me well one of the skills that you have is making people feel spoiled so I gave a shot up being a waiter in an Autolengi restaurant, that went sort of okay. I mean, I didn't embarrass myself, but I didn't get the job.

And then one day I was walking through a Borough Market and a place that I love, anybody who knows it. Can you just describe both Borough Markets for people who have never been? Yeah, Borough Market is right at the foot of London Bridge in London. And it's been a market for hundreds of years. It's a big canopy, open-air market with all sorts of gourmet food stalls and filled with people who are passionate about food. And I was walking through the alleyways, and there was an advertisement for a cheesemonger.

And I thought, what is a cheesemonger? So I watched, and it was so cool and so strange that I put in an application and I got the job. What is a cheesemonger? A cheesemonger doesn't make the cheese. A cheesemonger cares for the cheese. What you're trying to do with it is to bring it to what I call this stage of peak delight. where it is just at its absolute best where when you taste it you feel like you're kind of levitating off the ground. So each cheese has a different set of specs. It likes to be treated in a different

way. Some of them need to be given us a little bath before bed with a sort of brush that you would use on a horse and flipped. Others need to be in wax paper, sometimes plastic. A friend of mine, A cheesemonger colleague of mine said, I love how they all have a personality. It's just a shame they all think they're Mariah Carey. So, yeah, cheesemonger does all that work. And also tries to figure out the people that come to visit. And that is absolutely crucial. Did you have experience in this world at all?

I mean, were you somebody who ate a lot of cheese, do you love cheese, what have you, or you just see the thing and you think as a curious person, that seems interesting. Yeah, I think it's the latter. And here's the thing about that is part of the languishing and the wanting to try something different was I wanted to go somewhere where I had a clean slate, where I had to learn from the bottom up. And so there I was in my 50s being taught what to do by people who are in their 20s. And I just had to embrace my ignorance. And I loved it because the other job, you are the leader of a team in many ways and you're in charge. And this one, I was making loads of mistakes and embracing the mistakes.

Sorry, I didn't do that right. Sorry, I'm going to try again. And then seeing that I still have this capacity to learn a proper skill. What did you have to do and what did you have to learn to become a cheesmonger? I mean, you started as an apprentice. You come in right at the very bottom and you're doing work like drudgery, as you describe it, in and around the cheese shop before you can even get to the cheese shop. before you can even get to the cheese, right?

I mean, at the market, it's an open-air market, the first thing you do is sweep for mouse poo. So that's glamorous. There's a lot of what I call drudgery and surprise drudgery thinks that you almost can't imagine that someone would ask you to do and suddenly you're doing it. So all of that is part of the job. But I think, you know, the cheese is, of course, a big part of it.

And the other thing is the blank canvas. because you walk into a cheese stall and it smells of a bleach-like clean. It's the tables are bare. And in an hour and a half, it's showtime. You need to set everything up. And it has to look awesome, like a cornucopia. And to be able to perform that once you're able to perform it, it's a lot of skill, a lot of lifting, a lot of artistry,

which I'm not big on, but now I'm not bad at. it's a great sense of pride. The way that you describe the work in the book, I mean, you loved that work. You loved embracing that work. The physical part of it and even the drudgery too. Like that became something that you leaned into. Yes.

And still today, I mean, look, that's not to say that after nine, ten hours on your feet, there aren't some days where like, oh, do I really have to now do all these dishes and lift these cheeses. But the thing is, once you start doing it, it is therapeutic. And I think for people, possibly for people listening who, and it was the case with me and the jobs I do now still in the summertime when I'm in

Canada, there's a lot of like sitting in front of a computer and clicking into boxes and turning them different colors. It's, it's, I love being back there and, and being able to to scrub and make clean and, and transform and, and just feel my muscles. You say that it gave you a measure of peace brought a measure of peace into your life can you describe that what that felt like uh it it see that makes me emotional because it it does bring me peace um and i'm in this kind of crazy period where i'm going around different places trying to convince people to buy the book but just last saturday i was at the market and i couldn't wait to be there because i knew it's my space where i could be with the cheeses and be with the other mongers and yeah it it is good for the soul why do you think

it makes you emotional oh i don't know um it's just brought me from some place that was difficult and it took me to this this new shinier happiness and that makes me emotional this ascent isn't for everyone you need grit to climb this high this often You've got to be an underdog that always overdelivers. You've got to be 6,500 hospital staff, 1,000 doctors, all doing so much with so little. You've got to be Scarborough. Defined by our uphill battle and always striving towards new heights. And you can help us keep climbing. Donate at lovescarbro.com.

Hello, it's Ray Winston. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4. history's toughest heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast. You talked about the cheese and taking care of the cheese,

and the personalities of the cheese? I don't think people who, like, most people go to a grocery store and they buy their cheese. And the cheese mongers probably roll their eyes at that. But they don't know that the cheese has personality. They get the piece of brie, they get the piece of cheddar, they get the piece of the log of goat cheese. What are the personalities of cheese? Well, so they have to, in many cases, you'll have cheeses that need to be coaxed into doing what you want them to do. And they don't necessarily want to do it.

There's a blue cheese called Bleu de Terminion that's a natural blue. So the blue molds exist in the paste, but they need to be exposed to oxygen. They aren't injected in some cases with blue cheese. Most cases, they're injected. And this blue de Terminion, you have to cut it open. And then it starts, if you treat it right, it starts to develop these blue veins they look like. And gradually it develops this beautiful. that you have helped it to turn into, to metamorphies into.

And the cheeses, yeah, they each have a set of specs that if you don't respect them, then they are going to turn on you. Can you talk about, I mean, when things have personalities, your relationship with them can be a close one or you can have a sticky, tricky relationship with it. Talk about this pari, pari, yeah, so this is a sheep cheese that. that I just could not understand at the beginning. What do you mean you couldn't understand it? Well, it smells like the barn.

I don't know how many of you listening have been close to sheep, but to me this was like really being too personal with a sheep, like kissing a sheep. And it can get crusty and runny and it has a high acidity. And I just could not sell it. I don't think I even wanted to sell it. And I couldn't figure out why we even had it. And I went up to the owner one day, feeling bold, and I said, John, why do we even sell

this cheese? And he kind of paused and went, hmm, you know, that cheese, it may not be at its best today, but there's a lot behind that cheese. And yeah, the cheeses have their good days and they're bad. But you might ask yourself whether the question or the problem is with the cheeser, the munger. And so I went back home with my tail between my legs, and I started to do some research on the peri and figured out its history and learned to make, it made it, it uses the same milk as goes into Roquefort.

And I bought the right wine to go with it, and I took it out for a date, and we fell for each other. And now I'm one of the better peri sellers. Can you talk about selling cheese? of the things you'd seem to take great pride in in the book is is turning people somebody might come in and maybe i only like this cheese and you are able to convince them that there is a wider world that is that is such a that it's not just about strong cheddar for example strong cheddar you get a lot of people who just want a strong cheddar um yeah i think you know what

and i think in this country there is a real opportunity for people to open minds about cheese because a lot of people will buy cheeses that have come from the supermarket and they're, you know, entombed in plastic and you'll come away and say, oh, I don't like goats cheese. And I'll say, well, why don't you like goats cheese? And I don't know, just don't like it, don't like the taste. And to me, I'm thinking, when was the last time you had it? And what was it? Because often it is these shrink-wrapped supermarket goats cheeses and And they have kind of a sharp taste and they don't always put their best foot forward. And there are times often with goat's cheese where I say to someone, listen, give me a chance.

Let's have a try. And I promise I'm not going to send you to a bad place. I'm going to give you something that might change your mind. And when they get to that point of opening up and being willing, you give them something that can be a gateway and their mind is blown. And cheese is blow minds. And what does that like for you when you're able to do that? When the person who just wants the strong cheddar, you put the little bit of goat's cheese on them.

And they're like, oh. That's, I mean, that's one of the best parts of the job. We have a bell at the stall, which we really only ring when we measure exactly to what people ask. I want 225 grams, bing, if you get it, which is rare. But when I turn, when I convert a skeptic, that's when I want to ring the bell. I just think it'd be a bit rude to have,

that bell sound as they're jumping away out of ghost cheese. But yeah, it feels great. And I also think that that person is the person I was 15 years ago who didn't realize. And this whole world of love for cheese and respect for what it was and what it represents is now opening up to them. This is radio. People can't smell this studio. But if you had smell a vision. Sorry.

Describe what is in front of me right now. You have put together a cheeseboard for us. Yeah, I just brought, look, I brought in some Canadian cheeses because I work mostly with French cheeses and Swiss cheeses and British cheeses. And, you know, French cheeses are awesome. But I always say to people, you want to be buying Canadian cheeses, partly because no matter how delicious those European cheeses are, by the time they come over here, who knows? Me as a cheesemonger, I'm like, oh, I'm not convinced that they've been treated properly on the way over the ocean. So here are four cheeses from Ontario and Quebec to Ontario to Quebec, and they are terrific. And they do some magical things.

And in three of the four cases, there are cheeses where the people who make them also have their cows or sheep there on the farm. And this exists in Canada. That proximity really matters. Exactly. And this know-how. And to be honest, making cheese is a bit magical. People don't really 100% understand exactly how it works. I mean, some people who used to make it were thought of as witches.

So the fact that these amazing cheeses can exist right here in Canada, support that and enjoy it because it's part of who we are too. Mike Finnerty, do your cheese mongering. Walk us through this cheeseboard. So this bloomy rinded cheese, in other words, looks a bit like a brie. It's called Betta Seguin, which comes from Quebec, from Lido Grue, near Quebec City. Is this the one that's stinking of that? That's the one that's really stinking. It's got what we call a brassica note, so sort of cabbagey.

And, yeah, it's gooey, and Betta Seguyen means Seguin is beast. So it is a bit beastly. It's a beastly. But I think its bark is a lot worse than. and it's bite. Delicious. How would you describe what I'm smelling and what it tastes like? I mean, it's big, it's grassy, it's a little bit garlicky, it's a little bit cabbagey,

or what we would call brassica, but it's got a lovely smooth sweetness to it as well. Yeah, it's absolutely delicious. Let's go with the other Quebec cheese, which is Zachary Cloutier, which has won a whole bunch of awards. And here's an example of a brother and sister, Jean-Pol. and Mary Chantal Oude, who started making cheese not that long ago. It was a dream, brothers and sisters. So they started this farmhouse cheese business

and they make these sheep cheeses and they win a lot of prizes. Which one is that on the border here? This one closest to you. And if you think it looks a lot like a Manchego, it's because it looks a lot like a Manchego. They use the same molds as a Manchego. It's like a young Manchego.

It's smooth. It's delicious. A little bit coconut. Fantastic en bouche. And I absolutely What do you think? Oh, it's lovely. Yeah.

I mean, it's, and it's, the difference between that and the ooey-gooey, stinky. It's a mile away, isn't it? And it's the same process. And then these two here from Ontario. One is called a wildwood, which comes from Stontown artisan cheese around St. Mary's. And the other one's called a hand deck, which is from guns, artisan cheese, G.O.N. And it's near Woodstock. So the wildwood is 12 months.

and the hand deck is 24 months. The hand deck is, this is fantastic. So I'm doing something that I never do, which is eating on the radio, but I'm eating it because it's here and it's, you've brought cheese. It's rude tonight. I think you're doing,

I think you sound great with cheese in your mouth. Look, those cheeses, I tell you, they would make a grue maker blush. That hand deck is a solid Canadian product. That might be my favorite that I've had so far. And this younger one, the Wildwood, It has this neat trick of being moist, but also it has this kind of snap, crispness to it. So it really feels luxurious in the mouth, I think, and it's just a bit less big, a bit less meaty than the hand deck.

Wonderful cheeses. And there's loads of people making wonderful cheeses in this country. What is it like you said me as a cheesemonger? What is it like to say that given everything that you've, like this road that you've been on? it's a it's uh it surprises me to to hear myself say it because sometimes i still feel like an imposter because um how much do i know about cheese a fair a bit but there's people who know a lot more than i do and i'm proud i'm so proud that i was able to learn what i have learned and i love cheese mongers are this slightly crazy breed of people that have all lots of weird side hustles

a bit like me, I guess, and I love being around them. They make me happy. What have you learned about yourself in doing all of this? There's a lot more that I can do than I thought I could do. And I talk to so many people, Matt, even just the last couple of days because I'm in Toronto and meeting some people, come to book launches or old friends, and they're saying, things just aren't 100% at work, and I just don't know what else I can do. And I want to say to them, yeah, you don't know what else you can do because you haven't opened up and had the time to think and figure it out.

But you can do so many things. But that's a big leap, right? I mean, you, you, and I know this personally, you took a leap into the void. You weren't sure you're leaving a big job. It's public. And you're going into something else. And I mean, one of the things that I love about this book is it's about reinvention. And that's about possibility, right?

What would you say to somebody who thinks, I can't do that? I mean, there's no way that I could leave what I'm doing and try something else. Even if I feel like you did in the movie theater, like the two hours are the only bright spot in my life and then I'm languishing. What would you say to them?

I would say, take down your barriers. I want to say that I realize this comes from a place of privilege because I had a good job and I had it for a number of years and so I have some savings. So I know not everyone can envisage what I was, able to do, but I do make less money now and I'm much happier. I make another kind of currency, which is happiness and I'm time rich as well in many ways. And I guess what I'd say is if you can take down those barriers and imagine not staying in the same job that you're in, maybe not making

quite as much money or starting at a place where you're going to have to build yourself up again, that will open up the horizon. And that is a, it's at least a good place to play around in your mind. You seem so happy in this world. I'm happy. We're going to have to open up the doors to the studio, the smell of cheese. Your team's going to be less happy about the studio. It's a bad problem to have. Mike Finnerty, thank you very much. Oh, it's such a pleasure. Thank you. Michael Finnerty. He's a part-time broadcast journalist. Part-time cheesemonger, his new memoir is called the cheese cure, Alcante and Camembert fed my soul. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway.

Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.