The Current - These U.S. voters were undecided. What made up their minds?

Episode Date: November 5, 2024

As election day finally arrives in the U.S., we check back in with three undecided voters in crucial swing states that could decide whether Donald Trump or Kamala Harris become the country’s next president. What helped them make up their minds?

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current Podcast. It is, as you might have heard, Election Day in the United States, and according to the polls, it remains one of the tightest presidential races in that country's history. Just over six weeks ago, I spoke with three undecided voters from three battleground states about what it would take to help them make a final decision as to who to vote for. Well, they have since made up their minds, and they are back with us this morning. Amy Danzer is a grant writer at the University of Pittsburgh. She is in Erie, Pennsylvania.

Cameron Llewellyn is an IT professional, and he is just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. And Jeff Herr is a publisher of a lifestyle magazine in Tucson, Arizona. Good morning, everyone, and welcome back. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning.

Let's get right to it. Amy, when we last spoke, you said that if you had to vote that day, it would be, in your words, unfortunately, Kamala. How did you end up voting? Nikki Haley. You wrote in. Can you explain why you did that? I felt that I couldn't necessarily go and vote for somebody and live with my own conscience if I didn't fully believe in that person as being

the leader of the country. So why of the two people who are on the ballot, why did neither of them speak to you? And why did somebody who ran and then ultimately ended up stepping out of that race, why is she somebody who you think deserves your vote? I believe that the parties have done us a disservice by going and not allowing a full, thoughtful process, allowing individuals across the country to give their opinions well, that they have set it up in such a way that the party decides who the candidate is. sides who the candidate is. I could not go and vote for Donald Trump. Anybody that uses retribution as an ongoing theme within his way of governing is not someone that I want to have governing our country. Harris did not give me any good reason to go and vote for her because there are problems with the way we continue with our policies that have already been put into place without evaluating those carefully. And so Nikki Haley, it is for you. We'll come back to that decision.

Jeff, you weren't sure if you were going to vote at all for the presidential candidate. Who did you end up voting for? So all through the summer and into the early fall, I've been trying to figure out, you know, is Kamala the right answer? Because Trump was absolutely a no-go. I mean, zero possibility of voting for that guy. But then I realized about a week ago, you know what? I don't have to vote for somebody. I can just vote against somebody and try to move the needle that way. I got good with that, and then the more I started looking at her policies, some were

a little bit, you know, I don't know, a little bit, I don't know, ill-founded, kind of like what Amy was saying. It just doesn't seem like it's fully baked up. But, you know, there's some good stuff in there. I've been reading her position papers, and they're better and better.

So I'm looking forward to voting in a couple hours. And you're going to vote for Kamala Harris? Yes, sir. And is that going to be, I mean, to your point, is that going to be a vote against something? Or is there enough there that you're voting for something? I think I'm voting for something now. The positive tone and the focus on bringing everybody together, this has been a horrible couple of years. And so it'd be nice to get into something a little bit more positive.

Can I just ask just about one specific issue? And I asked this because we were down in Tucson just a couple of weeks ago and then headed even further south down to the U.S.-Mexico border. You live right near there. And so you know that immigration is a huge issue in your part of the country. How much of that impacted where your vote lands? It's a big deal. I mean, not because it's an invasion like Trump says, but because we need to process this situation in a more thoughtful and rigorous way. We had legislation that would have brought thousands of immigration judges to review the cases, thousands more border patrol agents, and that was scuttled for political reasons. So it's very important.

Cameron, you also voted early, kind of, I guess, beating the lines and getting ahead of a big day like today. Tell me about your final decision. Yeah, unfortunately, I kind of voted in a way that I've never had to vote for before because because in some very real ways, the genocide in Gaza became one of my major issues. And specifically, I don't have any confidence in Harris. And so I stared and stared for what must have seemed like at least five minutes, right, just at my ballot. At least five minutes, right, just at my ballot. But ultimately, I did cast a vote for Trump in the way of a protest vote in part to Kamala Harris, but specifically because I don't have any confidence that she would not have us into a war. Can you tell me about those five minutes where you're standing looking or sitting looking at the ballots? What was going through your mind? Well, it's awful. I mean, Matt, there's not really an easy way to say this. I was standing there with my daughter. I was hesitant to even come on the program, to be honest, just because

of the fact that the vitriol specifically in Georgia has gotten to a height where it's affected me in some ways that I didn't expect. Being a job suitor, I try to vote my conscience. And yet, do you really want to be seen as the person who's standing necessarily in line with President Trump and some of the things that he's known for? Well, in this particular case, if it prevents us from having an all-out war, then I unfortunately would be that person. Do you mind me just asking about that? Because I know when you mentioned your daughter, the vitriol, you posted up a photo of your daughter on social media, right? Yeah. So, you know, I, like a lot of American males, never saw themselves necessarily having a daughter. I kind of, I guess, idolized myself as having a son. And that may be because I didn't have a dad growing up. But fast forward, and I

love being a girl dad. And I posted a video of a costume that I had gotten her where I may have gone a little bit overboard, but it was just all in good fun. And I posted that video, and someone that I literally know from high school and have not seen in over 20 years posted that you don't love your daughter if you vote for Trump. And it just was so shocking, right? Not just to me, but other people who saw the comment. And I want to be honest here, Matt, right? There's part of this discussion which really affects women in a way that I'll never understand, right? Model the autonomy and having that taken away is a motivating factor, which I'm not sure anyone's necessarily qualified in any of the polls quite yet. But at the same token, it has also led to a kind of, like I said, vitriol where people who really don't have any sort of contextual information about why you might support a candidate will just lambaste you because that person goes against whatever your one issue is. And so for you, just the last point on this, for you, as you were making that decision, I mean, all of this is going through your mind, right? Right. And again, I cannot stress this enough, right? When we're talking about a situation in which a person was sort of selected to run for the office without any sort of primary, a person who has had no

remorse for what most people feel like was an attempted coup, having to seriously kind of think about, you know, what is the worst thing that could happen, whether, you know, each one of them gets elected. I've never been in a situation where that was the reason why I had to make a vote. Amy, in the wee small hours of tonight, we will be watching the map of Pennsylvania because this is one of those bellwether states. What happens in Pennsylvania may help determine what happens across the country. In a very, very tight state, in a very, very tight race, how would you answer the concerns or the criticism that some people might send your way saying writing in Nikki Haley is, I mean,

it can be a protest, but it could also be seen as a waste of a vote. How do you reckon with that? I will have to live with whichever candidate is elected. And that I will do for four years, and then we go back to the polls again. But I have to live with my conscience forever. And that's the reason that I made the choice that I did. I just wondered whether you think, I mean, depending on who wins the election, you might have regrets about writing in a candidate rather than selecting one of the two people who is in front of you that will, I mean, it's not Nikki Haley that will determine the future of the next four years.

It's going to be either Donald Trump or Kamala Harris. Whether you might regret voting for one of those two people. determine the future of the next four years. It's going to be either Donald Trump or Kamala Harris, whether you might regret voting for one of those two people. I may regret voting for one of those two people either way. You know, if the person ends up being the president and deciding on things in a way that I don't think is appropriate, or if the other person wins and, again, goes and decides on things in ways that I don't think are appropriate. This is the best way for me to vote my conscience and be able to live with that myself for the rest of my life. Jeff, you voted Republican all your life until Donald Trump came into the picture. We talked about this the last time you were here. When you speak with friends and family about the state of this vote, and I don't know whether you've disclosed to them where you're casting your ballot or not, but I'm just wondering what those conversations are like now.

First of all, it's a dangerous spot to enter into in terms of talking about who you're going to vote for for president this year. It's really rough. And so you've got to move carefully. You really don't know where people are coming from. But that said, my closest friends and family, they know where I stand. And, you know, we all have to make our choices, much like Amy was saying. You have to make a decision somehow or another. We all have to make our choices, much like Amy was saying. You have to make a decision somehow or another.

Tell me about that and what you're living with in terms of, I mean, Amy talked about, you know, being able to answer her conscience in some ways. For you, how does that play out? I guess you would say it was a process of elimination. Trump was out immediately. There's just absolutely no way. But when the Democratic Party at their convention selected her to be the candidate, it was time to quickly get on top of the issues and understand who this person is. And I have a few close friends who we were all of the same opinion about, you know, never Trump. Uh, so it was pretty straightforward with some people, but for the most part, I mean, I don't have a yard sign

out. I would never do that. Cause it's just, it's just too scary and, you know, and polarized. Too scary to have a yard sign out. Yeah. Yeah. People are going after each other just for yard signs now. Cameron, does that sound familiar? I mean, you talked about what you received online, but in conversations with people, what have those discussions played out like? Yeah, I mean, as you can tell, I'm a reasonably thoughtful person, so I wouldn't put a yard sign up, not necessarily that I would be in fear of someone taking it down. That doesn't mean that I haven't seen, you know, ridiculous acts of violence in surrounding areas around campaign signs. And there's an app that we have here in the States called Nextdoor.

And Nextdoor seems like it is littered with people talking about what happened to signs in their yard. Interestingly so, though, right? Although I would cast my vote as a Republican, I've seen more of the signs being be disqualifying if people think it's some sort of virtue signaling of who you actually are. As a black man in Georgia, you are a prized voter. People want your vote. And we have seen Kamala Harris release what she called the opportunity agenda for Men, included forgivable loans for black entrepreneurs, legalization of recreational marijuana, used to try to create these opportunities for black men in that industry. You had the former president, Barack Obama, telling black men, get over yourself in some ways if you're worried about voting for a woman, that this is the right choice to make. What was it like for you to, in some ways, be the target of those pitches? Because they came from Trump as well. And Donald Trump and the Republicans would be saying that they could do more for black men than the Democrats could. What is it like to be, as I say, in the hot seat, getting those pitches? Well, for Kamala Harris, right, the problem that I had specifically

was that all of this came so late, right? On one hand, we have identity politics in which it was really kind of put up that she was running as a black woman. And yet when asked originally about what she would do for black people, she said she wouldn't really do anything, right? Like not anything specifically because she was going to be the president of everyone in the United States. That definitely works from an idea standpoint. However, at different points in this country, we've done things specifically for targeted groups. So whether or not it was, you know, the laws that we changed to make places more accessible for the handicapped, whether or not it was making gay marriage legal so that the spouses could receive benefits. We've done those kinds of things. And then when you fast forward and this have said that in the beginning, right? You could have said that the systemic issues that have plagued black America because of where you came from and being that little girl on the bus, you know, that was

the line that she used to attack Biden. You could have said that in a meaningful way, but it feels so disingenuous if for no other reason than the last part about legalizing marijuana. Look, I am all in favor of freedom. I actually think you should legalize marijuana. But for the number of incarcerated black males specifically in America, I don't see how you're going to square that circle because you're obviously not going to do criminal justice reform. And if you are going to create some sort of opportunity for Black Americans in recreational marijuana, that very much feels like a misnomer because I don't see how you're going to get that through Congress. I don't see how the people that are corporate entities making money in that space are going to allow anyone else in. And then last but not least, it feels a bit offensive that the major initiative that you have is not around tech, not around quantum computing.

It's around marijuana, which makes me feel like you're sending Black people back to the fields. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Amy, you had said that you wanted to hear more policy, substantive policy from both candidates. Why didn't you see that, do you think?

I think, unfortunately, at this point in time that they're going after the various constituencies and almost trying to buy votes with particular policies that are being proposed. We're not going to tax social security for people who are older. We're not going to go and tax tips for people who are service workers. Those types of things, as Cameron said, are at the end, and they seem disingenuous in only trying to go and to buy votes of people of a certain demographic, you know, to the point where, you know, Elon Musk was going and offering people money to sign a petition, a million dollar check, a million dollars. Yeah. And that was allowed yesterday by a judge in Pennsylvania. Is something like that, I mean, does that seem like the most obvious example of what you're talking about? When somebody, you know, a billionaire can offer up a million dollars, that to you is the demonstration of what you're talking about, the demonstration of where politics has gone now? Yes, I think that we have devolved to a new low.

If Donald Trump loses, Jeff, there are a lot of people who believe, I mean, this will be the last of Donald Trump in politics. He's facing prison, he's facing any number of other legal concerns, and people think that this would be the last time that he would be on a presidential ballot. What would a post-Trump Republican Party need to do to get you back in its fold? Well, Trump has been consistent, at least. That's the one thing that I can say about him, consistently horrible. can say about him, consistently horrible. But he's brought on this whole crew of bootlickers that have been supporting him through Congress, through the courts, and that has to be cleaned up. It's a mess. I've been a John McCain supporter since, well, as long as he's been in,

as he was in office. And there's just, it's got, there's a whole cult around Trump. It's a cult of fear, by the way. But as soon as, hopefully he's out of the limelight, he's out of the discussion, he's off the television, out of the internet, then maybe we can go to, you know,

some of the more moderate, reasonable, and professional leaders that have been pushed to the sidelines. What about J.D. Vance? I mean, people see him not just as the vice presidential candidate, but many people in the party say that he's MAGA 2.0, that he's the inheritor of Donald Trump. Yeah, I don't see how that plays out. He doesn't have the charisma. He doesn't have the base. He doesn't have the fear factor that Trump holds over all the Republicans in Congress. I just don't see him pulling that off. And so do you have hope that you could find yourself back in that party, that if Donald Trump were to lose and that if he is,

and those who are around him are taken out of the picture, that there could be a place for you back in that party? There could be. But until that happens, there's no place to go there. It's really interesting, Cameron. In your state, in Georgia, huge numbers of people have voted already. Something like 4 million people were already casting their ballots in early voting. What do you think is motivating people there this time around? Why is it that people, they couldn't wait, that they wanted to get out and vote right now? What's interesting is that with the last election, it was one of the first times in my lifetime that I had heard non-minorities talking about voter suppression, talking about,

you know, voter restrictions and things where they felt as though the path to voting was made easier or somehow corrupt. And so I do think that a lot of that animus was due to people trying to get their vote counted so that there's no mix-ups. You know, historically, we'd never had such a turnout in terms of mail-in voting. And so I think that that's a lot of it. You know, me in part, I wasn't going to take a chance that I would be in a precinct that had any sort of malfunction, right? Like I just value my opportunity and my right to vote so much that I wanted to secure it. So I think a lot of other people are in that same camp. Jeff, do you worry about that down in Arizona? Again, there is a real concern that history could repeat itself and that you could have disputes over election

results at the highest level trickling down, that people may not, no matter what happens, if it's as close as people say, that people may not buy the result. That certainly is the risk today. It hasn't been that way in the past. And I think it all comes down to the uncertainty and the fear that's been brought by Trump. There are good people who are in government, in leadership positions, and we just need to get them, you know, back at the table and get back to work. Let me just ask you just in the last couple of minutes that we have. Amy, at the end of this, no matter what happens today and in the days ahead, people are going to have to live with each other. They're going to have to live next to each other. And we've heard about the divisions. You've talked about the divisions. What has to happen to address that polarization in the United

States coming out of this? And are you confident that neighbors will still be neighbors in the wake of an election like this? I hope they will be. I think, unfortunately, we don't let kindergartners talk this way to each other or behave this way. And yet we're allowing those who are running for leadership positions up and down the ballot to do so with impunity. I hope that we are, in a way, able to go and talk about what brings people together after this. I hope that whoever wins the presidential and actually all the other races do so definitively and in such a way that people are able to get behind that that is the person who has been duly elected to those positions. Cameron, I heard you in the background there. Go ahead.

No, I was just agreeing, right? In order to have some sort of resolution, we need to get back to civility. The idea that we were impressed by a vice presidential debate just because they actually talked about policy, that just represents the new all-time low. You know, the biggest negative impact of Donald Trump has been the wrecking of what used to be a gentleman's agreement that we would go and do the people's work, right, and specifically argue vehemently for our positions. you could still get things done, legislation passed, and that you understood that the person who was advocating on behalf of their state did not represent some sort of existential threat. I'm tired of every election feeling like some sort of, you know, bachelor's rose history, you know, where it's the most important thing ever. It would be so nice if we had competent leadership where the continuity in government was one in which the American ideal of American exceptionalism and freedom, those things were the things that we were voting on to promote, as opposed to, you know,

this situation in which it feels like we have to pick the lesser of two evils, neither of which make a lot of people comfortable. Jeff, last word to you. I mean, what has to be done to make sure that, as I said, people can live next to each other and not beat each other's throats because of political rhetoric? not beat each other's throats because of political rhetoric. Yeah, the steady drumbeat of anger, fear, and just general negativity from the Trump campaign, that is like atmospheric level impact on all of our psyches.

And the sooner that he's off the airwaves, the sooner we don't have to look at him, the better. And it will also take away a lot of the wind in his sails and that whole movement, the maggot movement, when he's gone. So that's the first and most important step. It's a big day in your country. And we have been fortunate to be able to tap into your brains as you work your way through this decision-making process. Thank you for being here. And good luck today. And good luck in the days ahead. Glad to talk to you again. Thank you.making process. Thank you for being here and good luck today. Good luck in the days ahead. Glad to talk to you again.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Amy Danzer is a grant writer at the University of Pittsburgh. She's in Erie, Pennsylvania. Cameron Llewellyn is an IT professional. He lives just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. And Jeff Herr publishes a lifestyle magazine in Tucson, Arizona.

Your CBC News election special begins tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern on CBC Radio and the CBC Listen app hosted by Susan Bonner and Pia Chattopadhyay. And on CBC Television, Chief Correspondent Adrienne Arsenault begins covering the special she's hosting at 8 p.m. Eastern. Again, full details of the results as they come in can also be found on the CBC News app, and you'll get the latest tomorrow here on The Current as well.