The Current - Trudeau is in a ‘delusional, false reality,’ says Liberal MP

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

Liberal MPs Wayne Long and Chad Collins say that the prime minister has lost the confidence of his caucus — and must resign. They talk to Matt Galloway about the leadership crisis, and why Chrystia Freeland got a standing ovation after her shock resignation. 

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. As we were speaking about earlier in the program, it was a tumultuous, is that a strong enough word? A tumultuous, is that a strong enough word? A tumultuous day in Ottawa yesterday. The finance minister and deputy prime minister, Christy Freeland, resigned with an open letter in which she made very clear her differences with the prime minister. Throughout the day, a growing chorus of Liberal MPs called for Justin Trudeau to resign. The prime minister hasn't said much in response.

Wayne Long is a Liberal MP for St. John Rothesay in New Bruns, and Chad Collins is a Liberal MP for Hamilton East, Stony Creek, Ontario. Both have been calling for the Prime Minister to go, and both join us now. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having us on, Matt. Chad Collins, Christy Freeland got a standing ovation yesterday in the caucus meeting. The Prime Minister was there as well.

You were there in that meeting. What did you make of that? I thought it was a very kind of sad and somber event in terms of, you know, everyone recognized her contribution over the years in terms of the various portfolios that she's had. And I think most people in the room kind of looked at her as a victim in terms of not just circumstance, but of the political machinations that happen in the Prime Minister's office and happen quite regularly here in Ottawa. Do you see her as a victim? I do. I absolutely do. Yeah, I think most people on caucus know that she was dedicated to, you know, addressing some of the affordability issues that we have in the country. She was also dedicated to ensuring that we passed a fiscally responsible budget. And I think it's no secret that, you know, the prime minister is one who's open to spending maybe more than we should. And I think those two visions and political positions collided last week.

And I think the outcome was what we witnessed yesterday. So just to be clear, I mean, in her resignation letter, she pointed out costly gimmicks, and people have assumed that that was this idea of the $250 check that would go to working Canadians. It's not in the fiscal, the fall economic statement. This is also the fall economic statement. This is also the GST holiday. Do you see those things as costly gimmicks?

The rebate for sure. You know, I was one of those people who openly criticized its release. It excluded seniors and people with disabilities. I don't know how we try to address affordability issues for all Canadians and exclude those two very vulnerable groups. And it's not something I think we've been accustomed to doing in the past. And so there were many people in caucus without breaching confidentiality who shared the same concern, who many talked about in making those investments in other areas, like housing and other portfolios. And so it was a bit of a surprise when it was released. And I do see it as a gimmick. And I really respect the fact that, you know, Ms. Freeland stood her ground and held the position and took the position that she did. You know, I've heard from my constituents that they were very concerned about it. And again, I just think it speaks to two different visions for where we should go with the 2025 budget.

And it seems as if Ms. Freeland won that battle. It just wasn't, as you just mentioned, it wasn't in the fall economic statement. Just because you were in the room, let me just ask you one more thing. And I know there's confidence that you can't preach, but the prime minister did address members of caucus. Do you believe that the prime minister enjoys the confidence of caucus? No, no, absolutely not. I think if there was a secret ballot that was held with caucus, I think it would be overwhelmingly, I don't think there's support there for the prime minister. So there was this letter that was circulated earlier with names of MPs.

You were on that letter calling for him to resign. People have been saying over the course of yesterday that more names were added. How many people are on that letter? That'd be a guess for me, but I'd say that we're probably talking several dozen MPs who've now joined the list. And there were many, Matt, back in October who talked about, you know, I'm just not there yet. You know, give me a couple of weeks, give me a couple of months, and let's see what happens through the fall. Let's see what happens with the GST scenario in terms of whether it resonates with Canadians. It hasn't. And so I think the actions that the Prime Minister took with Ms. Freeland, I think, convinced many that now's the time.

Wayne Long, you were not at the caucus meeting yesterday, but you have obviously been watching this very closely. What do you make of the Prime Minister's response to yesterday's events? Well, I mean, a couple points, and thanks for having me on the show. The Prime Minister's clearly lost the confidence of, you know, the party and the country. And, you know, I came out at the end of June and, you know, openly called for his resignation. And since then, you know, we've dropped more in the polls. We've had, you know, things like security clearance issues with Pierre Palliat, foreign interference. We came out with the HST holiday. We continue to either drop

in the polls or stay the same in the polls. I mean, we are 20 to 22 points back. And let me summarize it this way. I wasn't in the room last night. I had house duty and I wasn't allowed to go. But there is no question that the prime minister feels he knows what's best for the electorate and for the country better than the electorate and the country. There's no question about that. You can see it in his tone. You can see it in what he says. He feels he knows best, and he also feels that no matter what is happening, come election time, it's going to be okay. But if he's lost the confidence of caucus, if he's lost confidence of the party, why haven't more people put their names to that? Why aren't more people coming out? Why

aren't cabinet ministers beyond Christopher Freeland saying that they don't have confidence in him? You know, I mean, I've learned this before. I've come out, you know, against government in a few different situations over the past nine and a half years. And, you know, it's just human nature. A lot of people talk the talk. A lot of people are, you know, somewhat sincere in saying, you know, I support you. I've got your back. But, you know, when push comes to shove, a lot of people still just take that pause. They don't want to take that extra step. And, you know, to me, the prime minister is clearly living in a delusional false reality. He just, those around him are doing him a disservice. And, you know, I'm openly calling on ministers, more ministers. I mean, obviously, Chrystia Freeland, you know, with that letter, the bluntness and the directness

of that letter, the timing of that letter, that was a direct vote of non-confidence in the prime minister. I mean, you can't be any more direct than that. So my hope is that more ministers will speak up. Like, look, Matt, in the lobby, if I don't get the wink, wink, nod, nod, atta boys, pat on the back from my colleagues, including ministers for the last four months, I get them every day. So now is the time for ministers who know what's right, who know what we need to do. Like, we are heading for destruction as a party if we continue with Justin Trudeau as our leader. Chad Collins, the Prime Minister made his pitch to caucus last night, and again, not asking you to break any confidence, but is your sense that he is considering what you and Wayne Long are saying? Yesterday, I mean, some of your fellow

MPs came out of that meeting saying that he's staying. Yasir Naqvi said that he believes the Prime Minister is staying on. So is your sense that Justin Trudeau is listening to what you're saying and what you've heard over the course of the day? Well, it's anyone's guess, Matt, at this point. I mean, no one knows what's in the Prime Minister's head from one day to the next. And I was always one who would say to my colleagues that I think the Prime Minister will know when it's time to go. And I was wrong. I'm not certain, as Wayne just alluded to, I'm not certain that the Prime Minister does know when it's time to leave. And one thing I'm aware of, being in politics as long as I have been, and you and I are relatively the same age, you know, through my life, I look at all of the prime ministers who've served Canada, and you know that there's an average

length of time in office that Canadians have given them in terms of his dad was in for 11 years, Mr. Mulroney was in for nine, Mr. Crutchin was in for 10, Harper was in for nine, right? There's some very common numbers there in terms of nine and ten years. And I think history tells us that organically, Canadians desire change after that nine or ten year mark. And we're at that point. And, you know, I think he certainly knows history. And no one's won four mandates in a row since Laurier. I mean, that's 100 years ago, over 100 years ago. And so I just, I don't know what's going through his head.

And I think, you know, we have a chorus of calls from across Canada, not just from our constituents, but from our colleagues asking him to leave. And I think we're well past that point now. And the more time that, you know, that we lose going into the new year, the less time we have to properly prepare for his successor, and for someone to come forward, not just to the party, but to Canadians with a new vision in terms of, you know, what does the 2025 mandate look like for us? And I think, you know, what we fear is a polyeth government, and he was in my municipality recently with, as part of his Make Canada Great Again tour, and, you know, he

talks about fixing the budget. And we all know what fixing the budget means. It means cuts to social programs. It means, you know, defund the CBC. It means all kinds of things, right? And so that, I think, is what's motivating a lot of members. This isn't self-preservation. This is about what's possibly coming in 2025. And I think it's incumbent upon us, as Wayne has alluded to, to do everything within our power to ensure that we put our best foot forward. Wayne, we're just about out of time. There may be a little bit of self-preservation in what some people are saying, because the polling would suggest that many Liberal MPs will lose their seats. But you suggested that this is also about

the party. What sort of damage did yesterday, the events of yesterday from the letter by Christy Freeland, but also what unfolded after that letter came out. What sort of damage did that do to your party, do you think? Just briefly. I think the Liberal Party is an institution in the country, and we can recover very quickly, but we need a viable alternative to Pierre Polyev. He is absolutely beatable, but he is not beatable with Justin Trudeau. I have not seen visceral dislike for a prime minister like this really since probably Brian Mulroney when the Conservatives were reduced to two seats. And you believe your party could recover from that. If Justin Trudeau were to

take a walk in the sand or on the snow or whatever, wherever he goes for his holiday, that that would be something that could give life back to your party? There's no question. There's no question that we can, you know, mount a viable alternative and win the next election. Like, to me, it's so frustrating when I talk to ministers in our government and say, look, if we continue on this path, Pierre Polyev is going to reverse everything we've done. you on this path, Pierre Poliev is going to reverse everything we've done. So why not make a change now? Why not have some more policies that move us a little more to the center where we should be anyway? And let's find a place where we're appealing to Canadians. And right now, you know, like I said yesterday, like we're not a ship that's taking on water. We're the Titanic

right now. And we need to really change direction. We will be watching. It was quite a day yesterday. I appreciate you both being here this morning to talk about what happened and where you may go from here. Thank you very much. A pleasure. Thanks, Matt. Wayne Long is the Liberal MP for St. John Rothesay in New Brunswick.

Chad Collins is the member for Hamilton East, Stony Creek in Ontario. There will be more coverage of this story as the story unfolds. Of course, you can find that on the CBC News app right here on your CBC radio, cbc.ca and beyond. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.