The Current - Trump lifts Syria sanctions

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

U.S. President Donald Trump surprised the world by pledging to lift crippling sanctions on Syria this week. We dig into what this means for rebuilding the country after the fall of Assad, both for Syrians who have grown up in the brutality of the civil war, and those who fled and are longing to return home.

Carly Fortune became the queen of Canadian romance with her breakout hit Every Summer After. On my podcast Bookends, Carly told me all about the life-changing success of that book, and she dished on her newest summer love story. Two young women wait to the end of my signing line once and then said, we have a bone to pick with you. And they said, we need Charlie's happy ending, justice for Charlie. Check out Bookends with Matea Roach to hear the rest of that conversation wherever you get your podcasts.

This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. It's the sound of jubilation in the streets of Homs and Damascus after US President Donald Trump announced plans to lift that country's sanctions on Syria. Sanctions that had targeted the Assad regime but caught regular Syrians in their crosshairs. For decades, these sanctions have frozen the Syrian banking system and crippled the economy of that nation. This week's announcement from the American president was unexpected, could mark a major step

toward a better future for that country. Noora Al-Jazawi is a Syrian activist, former political prisoner under Bashar al-Assad. She is now a senior researcher at the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. Noora, good morning. Good morning. It's good to talk to you again. What was your reaction when you heard this news?

I think a lot of people were surprised that Donald Trump was going to remove these sanctions. Yeah, unbelievable. In the beginning, we were hearing that President Trump is considering lifting the sanctions, and we were just debating between our friends and here and there but then when the announcement, the official announcement came up, it was unbelievable. People in Syria immediately went to street to celebrate and I feel like since December 8th people were not that much celebrating as that night. So I was talking to my friends back home and they were saying like, yeah, people are just greeting each other in the streets and celebrating together.

It was such a great time for everyone, I believe. I know that there's a lot of questions to be asked, but at least we can say that it's a huge transformative moment for Syrians. The last time you and I spoke, you were considering going back to Syria for the first time since you left in 2013. You hadn't gone yet, but you have gone now, right? Yeah, I did. What was it like? I irritate myself. What was it like? Wow. It was very emotional. It was shocking. I was very stressed before leaving. I changed. Everybody I was planning to see, including my dad, I know that they were changed,

planning to see, including my dad, I know that they were changed, whether aging or changing in terms of our thoughts. A lot of things in details. I left Syria alone. I was a young woman and returning to the country with the family. It was also like something else to reintroduce myself to the country and to my friends and family. So, but yeah, the moment we arrived to the borders, it was just a magical moment. And I felt that, yeah, now I'm like it's reshaping my identity. What do you mean? You know, like when I left the country, I escaped, I crossed the borders to Turkey illegally. My trip to Turkey took around like approximately a month because we were just taking the very

hard roads in the villages and crossing rivers in the like in the middle of winter just because Assad militias were going after me. And yeah, since then, since 2013, I was having this, it was such a scar in my soul that I'm forcibly displaced. I didn't choose to leave the country, but it was the only choice to stay alive.

After the detention, after how the Assad regime went after my family, and it was impossible to stay in the country. So this first, like this sense of exile, and you feel like, yeah, in holidays, people, your friends here, people can go home, can plan to visit their families, can just like spend holidays with family

and they can plan for their trips. Whereas like there was always something tough inside me deep down. And I believe many Syrian in exile can relate and many people who are forcibly displaced from their countries can relate to this. The moment that I arrived in the country, I crossed the borders, I stamped my passport. I needed to prove that Assad is no longer there and I can return to the country without

fear. And like then I'm no longer forcibly displaced person. I have choice now. And yeah, I felt just empowered, very happy, very emotionally fulfilled. But you know, the other side of that visit, it was heartbreaking. Soterios Johnson Just because of what the country has gone through. And that's what, I mean, you talk about this being a transformational moment. One of the things that people are hoping for is that with the easing or the lifting of the sanctions, that the country will

be able to rebuild itself. What will this mean for people on the ground, do you think? I would say like the sanctions and the war was really affecting every single aspect from their lives. It's from the water to electricity. I kept telling my friends about how hard it is to keep navigating the electricity that would probably come for two hours per day, and the water that probably would show up for one day or two days per week.

Just thinking about the laundry, how the family is going to arrange the shower schedule and all of these teeny tiny details. And people's like, as Syrians, before the war, we used to afford this, like everything was available. But that was really strange. And seeing how everything in the country is really destroyed, not only in terms of the housing, we know that the areas were affected by the conflict,

where the bombardment of Assad or the oppressions, as well as the direct attacks on besieged areas. We know I'm aware of the destruction, but when it comes also to the buildings, just seeing how many children are out of school just because their schools are destroyed or destroyed, or they're occupied to host IDPs. It's unbelievable. All the government buildings are very, very old. I was shocked when I drove to Damascus. It's the capital.

How much this person hated Syria to make the capital this way. It was such an old, destroyed, very bad-looking city. And I felt so, like, yeah, it was such heartbreaking. Where do you think the focus should be concentrated to ensure that, I mean, in the early moments, to ensure that Syria, but also the people who are there, are set up to succeed, that there is the future that people are promising.

Where should the emphasis be right now? Actually, on every single sector. Probably people usually think that we need to focus on the essential needs like humanitarian aid and rebuilding the infrastructure, the critical infrastructure as well. But just following this, the rebuilding the infrastructure, the critical infrastructure as well. But just following this, doing my research on the disinformation and information warfare,

for example, and being a digital rights activist and scholar, it was unbelievable how people are... We are in 2025 and people mostly don't have good connectivity to the internet, all victims, and they are very much vulnerable to disinformation. And because of the weapons, like we have so many people, even including civilians, they have weapons in their homes. So any piece of disinformation can really lead

to a new conflict, new clashes. And we are witnessing this here and there. But we heard the sound of people celebrating on the streets. Part of that is about a generation like yourself has just grown up under this umbrella. What is the promise for that younger generation if these sanctions truly are lifted and the country is able to see that moment? generation if these sanctions truly are lifted and the country is able to see that moment. It's a huge promise. For years, many young men didn't have a job except for like the only sector was very well funded by so many regional and international actors was to fight. So, it's going to create alternative choice giving these young men second choice and second chance to choose whether they're going to become part of the security agencies or police

or even go to decide to continue with the military under the ministry, or they can find alternatives to seek employment, to continue their lives, to rebuild the life that was destroyed for more than a decade. I have to let you go, but just very briefly, and this is a question that I asked you before when we spoke, now that things have changed, would you consider going back to be part of that rebuild?

I would always consider keep going back and forth and this is my message to Canada that I wish Canada would follow the United States and the UK, the allies, to empower us as Canadians to like to do something for this country and to help Syrian people to rebuild their lives, not only building the buildings or the houses, but we need also to work on rebuilding the humans. And I believe this is a good opportunity to call on our government to empower us as Canadians to contribute to this. It's good to speak with you again.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Matt. Noura Al-Jazawi is a Syrian activist, former political prisoner under Bashar Al-Assad. She is now a senior researcher at the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive

you absolutely crazy. Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighbourhood or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto, wherever you get your podcasts.

Delaney Simon is a senior analyst with the Crisis Group. She's been following the effects of Syrian sanctions over the years. Delaney, good morning to you. Good morning. When you and I spoke in December, you said, leaving severe sanctions on Syria would be like pulling the rug out from that country as it

tries to stand. You heard from Nura, we heard from the people who are celebrating in the streets, as Donald Trump announces the plan to ease or wipe away these sanctions. What was your reaction to that? Were you surprised? Matt, I am frankly shocked and delighted to hear that President Trump is planning on ending sanctions on Syria. I mean, for him to say, it seems pretty much categorically that he will end sanctions on Syria to give Syria a chance at greatness. That's, to be honest, unprecedented in U.S. sanctions history.

If he makes good on his promise and unconditionally lifts sanctions on Syria, I think it's fair to say that he'll be the first president to do so, at least on a state that's so heavily sanctioned as Syria is. What is your sense as to why he is doing this now? That's why so many people were taken by surprise when this announcement came. Yeah, and I was taken by surprise too, because the signals that we had gotten from members of his administration were that folks around the president were very skeptical about sanctions lifting, very skeptical about outreach to the Syrian interim president al-Sharah.

And so it is surprising. There have been indications that the president was influenced by his contacts with the region, by President Erdogan of Turkey, by Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia. And it seems that the regional voices and the leaders in the region influenced him more than potentially members of his own team who work on the Middle East. Noura talked about how sanctions impacted every aspect of life in Syria.

From your perspective, how did they change the lives of citizens? You know, I've been looking into for years the extent to which sanctions crippled economic growth, crippled any efforts to rebuild the country after years of war, but also crippled the ability of humanitarian organizations to deliver aid. It became incredibly difficult for non-governmental organizations and other charities to give food to

people in Syria who were suffering from food insecurity, to bring in medical supplies and equipment, to work on major infrastructure projects after they'd been damaged by earthquake and war. infrastructure projects after they'd been damaged by earthquake and war. And this is humanitarian aid that actually sanctions permitted because of various licenses, and yet the enormous sort of near embargo that persisted on Syria made the fact of bringing supplies and services into the country extremely difficult. And so how quickly could things change? I mean, it's interesting. Donald Trump said that he was meeting with the interim president.

He called him a tough guy with a very strong past. This is somebody who until December had a $10 million bounty on his head. He was a former leader of a branch of Al-Qaeda. Donald Trump has made this about face. If he sticks to this, how quickly could change happen in Syria? That's the million dollar question because actually it's not that easy to lift US sanctions on Syria. What would it take?

First of all, the Trump administration would have to unwind dozens of different restrictions that had been put in place on Syria since 1979. There would have to be action from the State Department, from the Department of Treasury, from the Department of Commerce, from the White House, also from Congress. So we'd need both executive and legislative action. And even if they achieve the full lifting in a bureaucratic sense, in practice, sanctions relief might not come even if it's been delivered on paper because the private sector may be afraid to engage in a Syria that's formally sanctioned, that continues to be perceived as risky, indeed

a country that's run by individuals who used to be linked with al-Qaeda. And so I absolutely share in the jubilation of Syrians and others after this announcement, but I have to caution, it's really not very straightforward. Other cases of sanctions lifting have taken three, four, five, six, seven, eight years. And then hopes of the people haven't been met because sanctions have been lifted, but economic relief hasn't come. So if the Trump administration wants to make good on this promise, it has a very tough road ahead. Does that change if the world moves in concert? I mean, there are countries like Canada that still have sanctions on Syria. The head of foreign policy for the European Union proposed this morning further loosening

European sanctions on Syria to allow for funding of ministries in areas of reconstruction and migration. So if the world moves as one, does that accelerate the timeline? It could. US sanctions have been the real big sticking point. The Europeans relaxed their restrictions some months ago. Canada relaxed them to a certain extent, although it still has some pretty heavy restrictions

in place. The UN continues to sanction the group that the current Syrian president was part of, HDS. And so the whole world will need to move if Syria is really going to emerge from being a sanctioned state. But the US is the biggest player in this game. And so the US doing it will really make a huge difference in part because of the US's influence in the global financial sector.

Most transactions globally have to go through US banks. And so if US banks are able to do business in Syria, I can't overemphasize how important this development is. What would a more stable Syria, a Syria that is not sanctioned and is recognized and is dealt with by the rest of the world, what would that mean for the region, do you think? It's an enormous opportunity for the region.

It could mean stability on several countries' borders. It could mean increased trade and business. You can imagine a more stable and prosperous Syria with connections to Saudi Arabia, to Qatar. There would be a huge influence on the neighboring country of Lebanon, which has hosted Syrian refugees for over a decade now. It could be a massive boon for prosperity in the region. I mean, this is not a silver bullet though. And if sanctions are lifted, we'll still also have to grapple with

a tremendous amount of economic problems and also stability issues in Syria that once the spotlight on sanctions is no longer there, other issues will clearly come to the fore. Donald Trump made this announcement while he was in Saudi Arabia. This is part of his first international trip. He's in Saudi and other This is part of his first international trip. He's in Saudi and other Gulf nations. What do you take from that? Well, it's really interesting to see that Trump's first trip was to Saudi Arabia. It was also the first trip in his first term.

It's a clear deviation from the path of most US presidents in the past trips have been to Europe, the UK, to Israel, Canada, to Mexico. And so Trump is looking at less of a traditional US ally. He clearly has a deep affinity for the Gulf. But I think it signals a more transactional bend, a look away from traditional US interests and a sort of realignment of US foreign policy as we've known it. This trip does not include a stop in Israel. And there is reporting that is showing

that the administration has not been coordinating with Israel when it comes to negotiations with different actors in the region. There was the deal apparently that was done directly with Hamas to release the last American hostage held by Hamas. What do you make of that? Yeah, it's very interesting to watch. We can't forget that Bibi Netanyahu came to the White House already to meet Trump,

but absolutely in the past few weeks and months, we've seen a sort of break to a certain degree between the Trump administration and Israel. As you said, there were negotiations directly between the US and Hamas. Also, the United States made a deal with the Houthis in Yemen that didn't include Israel. And I think this recent outreach to Syria is also making the Israelis very nervous. I think it may suggest that the Trump administration is disappointing those in Israel who were really looking forward to a president who they thought would have their core interests at heart and at the center of US foreign policy making. But I will say I found it very notable that in Trump's message to Al-Sharah, that's the president of Syria when they met,

he included some asks that were related to Israeli security, namely asking Al-Sharah if Syria would join the Abraham Accords and also some commitments related to Palestinian terrorism. So, I mean, Israel is still top of mind in a lot of ways, but certainly not the priority that many Israelis hoped it would be. Could I just, before I let you go, just ask how you think Trump's language and the rhetoric that he's using is landing in the region. He's talking about Iran, saying, I want them to have a wonderful country and make a lot

of money. Of Syria, he says, they deserve a chance at greatness. As you understand it, how is that landing in the region? I think it's landing enormously well and I was particularly struck by the speech that the president gave in Saudi Arabia where he said, nation builders have wrecked far more nations than they built, too many American presidents of the past have said that it's our job to look into the souls of foreign leaders. There's like a standing ovation after that. Absolutely. And this is, I mean, this is President Trump essentially excreting his

Republican predecessors and their approach to foreign policy. And so this is a real shift, a real shift in terms of rhetoric, a real shift in the Republican Party and a shift for President Trump. But it remains to be seen practically what will happen with US foreign policy. It's really early days, so I'll be watching this space eagerly. And why he's doing this, that's the big question as well.

What is at the heart of what he's trying to say? I wish I could tell you. I don't know, but I have to say I'm really delighted to see the Syria sanctions announcement, and I can only hope that his words on this account will be matched with actions, because actions will mean everything. Words are a lot, but I'll be hoping that he really follows through and does the big bureaucratic and political lift that's required to free Syria of this horrible economic chokehold that it needs to emerge from to rebuild.

Really good to talk to you again, Delaney. Thank you. It's a pleasure. You've been listening to The Current Podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon.