The Current - UofT’s President on what a university education is really for

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

As thousands of graduates toss their caps in the air, the president of Canada’s largest university is stepping down. Meric Gertler reflects on 12 years at the helm of the University of Toronto —and the future of education and life after the classroom in the age of AI and fewer jobs.

Ten years ago, I asked my partner Kelsey if she would marry me. I did that, despite the fact that every living member of my family who had ever been married had also gotten divorced. Forever is a Long Time is a five-part series in which I talk to those relatives about why they got divorced and why they got married. You can listen to it now on CBC's Personally. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is the current podcast. It's convocation season and across this country students in caps and gowns sit patiently in college and university halls listening to the sometimes inspiring words of the commencement speaker.

And the question, what's next, is at the top of everyone's mind. This year, University of Toronto President, Merrick Gertler, is also contemplating his future. After 12 years at the helm of this country's biggest institution of higher learning, he's stepping down. He has led the university through transformative

and tumultuous times, through debates over freedom of expression and the right to protest, of higher learning, he's stepping down. He has led the university through transformative and tumultuous times, through debates over freedom of expression and the right to protest, and through an era when universities face existential questions about their role in society and the purpose of higher education itself. Meric Gertler is with me in studio now. Good morning. Good morning, Matt. This is, I was saying to you as you came in, one of my favorite times of the year, because I go through your campus every day on the way home and I see hundreds and hundreds of parents and students who are very proud, maybe kind of embarrassed by the pride of their

parents in this moment. What is it like for you? What's the best thing about this moment for you? Yeah, it is so great. It's wonderful to see the joy, the pride that families have in the achievements of their children. And it's also just a reminder of the role that an institution like the University of Toronto plays, not just in the City of Toronto, but in the country, as a kind of gateway of opportunity for so many aspiring new Canadians and Canadians who've been here a while.

We really are creating opportunity by educating so many young people, and it means so much to them. On my way here this morning, my taxi driver who came from Ethiopia 40 years ago was proudly telling me that his daughter's in the third year of a science program at our Scarborough campus, and he's just bursting with pride to sort of describe and imagine what her future might be like. And obviously he has high hopes for her. So what's it like for you, knowing that this is the last time

that you're gonna be on the stage? And that means a big moment when the student walks across the stage. It is indeed. And I speak to every one of them, call them by name, to make sure that they know that their achievements are being recognized, not just by their families, but by the people who lead the institution as well. Now, that's something I will really miss because it is just such a tangible expression of the

importance of what we do. This is why we are here ultimately to educate students, to educate future citizens. Those students are being launched into a world that is not particularly receptive to them. It's really hard for graduates to find employment right now. How do you see that? And how do you see the role of the university in this moment? So it is hard. I mean, the labor market for the graduating cohort is pretty depressing at the moment. Hopefully that will be short-lived and that once Canada can resolve some of its macroeconomic challenges and particularly the dispute with our neighbors to the south.

But it was beyond that. I mean, people wonder whether the jobs that they perhaps went to school thinking that they would end up in are going to exist because of things like artificial intelligence and what have you. It's absolutely true and something that we've been trying to reckon with in terms of how we educate our students. So artificial intelligence is of course a huge game changer across so many different occupations, so many different fields. When chat GPT 4 broke a couple of years ago, everyone's first impulse was to worry about academic misconduct. Cheating. Cheating, if you want to call it that. But we've changed our whole view on it,

recognizing that the world of work is changing and that whatever field you work in, you're going to have to find a way to use those tools, use them responsibly, use them productively and effectively, use them ethically. And so we are now integrating this kind of work into the way that we teach, making sure that when our students graduate, they are fully equipped to use these kinds of tools properly. Do you think the universities need to rethink how they prepare their students for this world?

Maybe, and AI is part of that, but that, I mean, whether it's more work experience, co-op programs, what have you, so that those students are better prepared for the real world, as he said. For sure, and you know, when I started this are better prepared for the real world, as he said. For sure. And you know, when I started this in this gig 12 years ago, one of my highest priorities was to inspire the university to reimagine education, particularly undergraduate

education, although frankly, there's been as many changes at the graduate level as well. And so what we've seen since then are a number of big trends. We've just been talking about AI, and clearly that wasn't really on the radar in the same way as it is now 12 years ago. But what was already evident was a tremendous interest in experiential learning, a recognition both by students and by employers that giving our students an opportunity to blend in-class learning

with learning in the community, learning in the workplace, would be such a good thing both for them by giving them real-world experience and also for employers who would have a chance to try students out as interns, but also when they were looking to hire students, they would be drawn to those students who have already got some work experience under their belt. So we've done a variety of co-op programs. Our Scarborough campus has had those in place for a long time. We've had professional experience here in our faculty of applied science and engineering, which is now spreading to arts and science and elsewhere. A lot of service learning in courses where students work with community groups on applied

problems, very, very popular. And then of course summer internships. Another trend though that we've noticed and frankly we've really encouraged has been to encourage more of our students to have an international experience. Canadian students have been unusually reluctant to travel and study abroad compared to students in Europe or students in the US. So this is something that we worked on as well. What do you think, and maybe it goes to that question of what those students are prepared with and for when they leave university and go into that world. What do you think

the value of a university degree is right now? And I ask as a liberal arts grad, I mean, I have an English degree, what is that going to do? It's going to do a lot actually. Is it about, in 2025, given everything that we've talked about, is it about training people for work or is it about the idea that you are going to go and learn and be exposed to things that you never came across any other opportunity and that that is this little window where you can do that? Yeah, it's a great question.

It's one that we probably don't ask frequently enough and we should. My own view on this is that we are really in the game, in the business, of teaching people how to think, teaching people how to solve problems, giving people a broad foundation of background and knowledge and understanding that will serve them well through a career in which we know that they will be having to reinvent themselves continuously over time. Is that a luxury in 2025 when people worry about the existence of liberal arts? And so you know what?

In the real world, you don't have time to do that. Right. You know, it is often viewed that way. I would say it's a necessity that if we're going to educate future citizens who are successful in the real world, we have to give them that kind of resilience, that kind of ability to reinvent themselves over time. And when you talk to employers, they often point to the so-called soft skills that they are looking for, which is, again, problem-solving, critical thinking, the ability to work well in teams with complimentary colleagues

who are able to support and really bring different skills to the solution that they're looking for. These kinds of things that indeed will set students up for a lifetime of success. So I don't think of it as a luxury at all, but indeed as a necessity. You know, the other thing when you ask about the value of a university degree, something that we've really forgotten is that, you know, there's actually a really convincing literature that demonstrates that students with university degrees are more likely to be not just economically successful over their lifetime, they're likely to be healthier, happier, more engaged civic citizens, more likely to vote, less likely to commit crimes.

You know, these are the kinds of social outcomes that are so important and are often overlooked when we talk about the value of universities. But I think it is time for us to go back to some of those foundational ideas as we think about how we support universities going forward. What do you make as somebody who is leading a huge institution here of what's going on in the United States? Where you have research funding that's been slashed, you have international students

that are being picked up and deported, you have academics worrying about the fact that they could be targeted for doing work that doesn't fit the agenda of the government. You must know a number of the people who lead those institutions in the United States. What goes through your mind? Yeah, I know quite a few of them because the University of Toronto is one of two foreign members of the Association of American Universities. The other one is McGill and we were both admitted in 1926. So we have the privilege of joining our American colleagues at typically about 65 or so top universities from the US, meeting twice a year in Washington DC. So yes, I do know them. And I can tell you that they have experienced one shockwave after another, after another. Could you ever imagine something like

this happen? Here in Canada? Or in the United States? Well certainly it seemed beyond the pale. We had an earlier Trump administration where there were certainly some fairly turbulent things that happened, but nothing by comparison to what we've seen in the last 18 months or so. What is most alarming to you about it? Well, I think there are a couple of things that are most alarming. First of all, the weaponization of research funding in order to get university administrations to do the bidding of a particular government administration. The consequences of that are profound,

not just domestically where an institution like Harvard could see its research budget slashed by half, where Johns Hopkins has sustained an over $800 million cut to research related to USAID and international development work. If you think about the impact of that on the advancement of knowledge, the advancement of science, it is truly profound. But the impact also goes beyond the US because all those leading institutions work in partnership with great Canadian universities, great British universities and other great universities around the world. And when you see this happening to your partner,

you know that it's going to have consequences for you. It's going to reduce the rate at which one can make progress. It's going to reduce the number of partners that you can work with. At the same time, not surprisingly, it has generated a lot of anxiety amongst academic talent and students in the US who are frankly looking elsewhere for opportunities and Toronto is one of those places. What is the US who are frankly, looking elsewhere for opportunities. And Toronto is one of those places. What is the opportunity? I mean, I've read somewhere that two and a half

billion dollars worth of grants in the United States have been rescinded. Right. You have institutions in Canada that are offering special for Queens University offering what they're calling a special US doctoral recruitment initiative. Right.

What is the opportunity for a school like the U of T? Can you, I mean, poaching is a strange word, but in that moment, can you bring some of that great talent here to this country? We already have. So you may have heard about three professors from Yale who have come to the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, Tim Snyder, who has been on CBC a lot, Marcy Shore, another eminent European historian, and Jason Stanley. Who you spoke with on the program about that. Exactly, right. And each of them will describe different reasons why they have chosen to leave but it's a very tangible example of the consequences of what's happening south

of the border. The media coverage around the three Yale professors coming to U of T has been global and not surprisingly it has stimulated a lot of other interests. So we've had many, many inquiries not just in history and political science and philosophy but in all kinds of disciplines as well. If you think about health research, the National Institutes of Health has frozen funding for people working on things like vaccines and vaccine hesitancy, anything related to gender, anything related to climate change in the environment. Well, U of T announced just a couple of months ago the establishment of the Lawson Climate Institute, thanks to the generosity of Brian

and Joanna Lawson and their family, our timing was not dictated by what's happening south of the border, but in hindsight it could not have been better. Because if you imagine being a scientist at Harvard or MIT or Berkeley working on climate change, and the National Science Foundation has just said, we can't fund your research anymore and then you see an announcement like the one that came out from U of T. You can imagine their excitement and their sense of opportunity. So there are lots of ways in which we will certainly benefit. Is drinking raw milk safe like RFK Junior suggests? Can you reduce a glucose spike if you eat your food in quote-unquote the right order? I'm registered dietitian Abby Sharp.

I host a nutrition myth-busting podcast called Bite Back with Abby Sharp and those are just some of the questions I tackle with qualified experts on my show. On Bite Back, my goal is to help listeners create a pleasurable relationship with food, their body, and themselves, which in my opinion is the fundamental secret to good health. Listen to Bite Back wherever you get your podcasts. Let's talk about the pressure you've faced here in your job. Most recently, you had to navigate the debate over the war in Gaza, accusations of anti-Semitism on campus that have gone on well before that war, the encampments.

What would you have done differently in that moment? This is about a year ago. It was about a year ago. What would you have done differently looking back on this? I'm not sure that I would have done much differently. Do you think it was a mistake not to meet with the people who were protesting on campus? We did meet with them. You directly?

Yes, I did. I did. Earlier on, there was a lot of complaints that you were not there in that moment. You were delegating, that you weren't there meeting with the people who were taking over the center of the campus. They were indeed. I did meet with them early on, but senior members of my administration also did meet with them quite frequently. I mean, the president of the university just does not have that kind of time to meet with them on an almost daily basis, which was what we were engaged in. But indeed, I did meet with them. Beyond that, you don't think that you would have done much differently?

Well, look, our task was to find the right balance and it's a delicate balance. On the one hand, we steadfastly defend and support the right of members of our community to protest, to exercise their freedom of speech and their academic freedom. On the other hand, at the same time, we also have to find a way to create an environment for teaching and learning and research and work, which is free of discrimination and harassment and where people do not feel excluded. And did you feel that you reached that balance? discrimination and harassment and where people do not feel excluded. And did you feel that you reached that balance?

Well, I believe we did about as well as we could do. We got a lot of heat from people for not shutting the encampment down right away. And as you know, it was up and present for two months on our front campus, right outside my office window. There was a lot of pressure on us to, quote unquote, shut it down, although it was never clear how we could actually do that, had we chosen to do so. But as a university, a place that needs to accommodate dissent and discussion and debate. We have a very, very high bar when it comes to freedom of expression, and we had to work

very hard to protect that right. At the same time, I was also hearing from people who were very upset by the presence of that encampment in the middle of our campus, including during convocation this time last year. This is a very, it became a very personalized issue issue and people directed a lot of that anger at you during convocation I know as well when you were sitting on stage for example. Absolutely true and there were protests at my home and members of my family were also targeted so it was the one and only time where that has happened in 12 years, and it was indeed very, very difficult.

But again, we believed in the values and the principles that were really at the core of this. The need to support debate and discussion, to say uncomfortable things, even offensive things, so long as they were expressed in a lawful way, and in a way that was compliant with university policy. So again, a very, very difficult balance to find. Inside the university, of course, I heard from all kinds of different viewpoints, people who were unhappy about various things that we were or were not doing. Outside the university and subsequent to that, I have to say that most of the commentary that I have received since then has been positive to say, you know, I don't know how you did it but somehow you managed to find that right balance.

You brought in Randy Boykohta who's a professor at the U of T. We spoke with him a number of times as a special advisor on civil discourse at the University of Toronto to promote productive and respectful dialogue on a range of issues. How successful do you think that was? Is that possible on an issue like this? It better be. Is it happening? It is happening. Really?

But Matt, this is not something that you can change overnight. Consider the context. You know, the horrific events that took place on October 7th and since then, and let's face it, there have been many of them, took place after we had experienced a global pandemic. And I believe that what has happened since then demonstrates how those two events were connected. If you think about it, we had basically two years in which interpersonal interaction was almost exclusively virtual and where over that period of time members of our community lost the ability to talk to one another about difficult issues in a civil way, communicating through social media encouraged and enabled them to say things to one another that they would never have

said to that person if they were meeting in person and face to face. And so that ability was already depleted. When you lay on top of that, of course, the very contentious and difficult events that happened post-October 7th, it was really just a very, very challenging combination. So what Randy has done has been to, through his work with a working group, try and create or recreate, rebuild that capacity for people to talk about difficult things in a productive way. Do you think people want to talk about difficult things?

There's a lot of talk in the United States about ideological diversity on campus, and that means it's largely focused on conservative views, saying there's not enough conservative professors, for example, on a campus. But how good of a job do you think universities are doing in introducing students to ideas that would really challenge their views, that would push their views around? Well, so it's a great question. It's a really important question because we have to be able to do that. So what are the conditions? First of all, you want to make sure that all of those viewpoints have an opportunity to be expressed, whether from

students or from faculty. Second, in the classroom, we have to make sure that our instructors have the skill set, the tools, the capability to mediate those debates so that if you're a student sitting at the back of the class and you're feeling uncomfortable about the view that is being expressed by most of the other people in the room, you still feel comfortable in putting your hand up and making a contribution that might be contrary to what someone else says. Moreover, our faculty often bring very, very passionate and strong positions and views to these issues. And you know, that's completely understandable.

But we have to make sure that when they conduct those conversations in the classroom, that they're not crowding out others who might have a different view. They're not imposing some kind of a chill, that they have to create that space where everybody feels comfortable expressing a view, no matter how, um, off the beaten path or how far from the mainstream it might be. Just in the last couple of minutes that we have,

end with, and it picks up directly on that. I said earlier that this is the time where graduating students get inspirational words from the guest speaker, from everybody else. Everybody wants to tell them how to think. This is what you should be thinking about as you step into this new part of your life. What would you say to those students now? What's a piece of advice that you would give them?

I think that the opportunities that they have going forward are huge. And what I've said to students frequently is keep your options open. Don't foreclose opportunity prematurely. That can be practical in terms of employment, but also can be just in terms of how you think. Right? To keep your options open. Absolutely right. Because you will often be surprised by opportunities and you have to be ready to seize them. But I really do think that just from a kind of demographic point of view,

the labor force is going to be shrinking, birth rates have been declining, people who are graduating today, yes, it might be a difficult few months or maybe a year, but the kinds of long-term opportunities that they have, I think, are really unlimited and extremely exciting. I would also say how lucky they are to be living in a country like Canada, which increasingly stands out on the global stage as a kind of island of stability, of civility, of openness, and I hope it is a place that remains open for some time to come.

Glad to have you here this morning. Congratulations on your term as president and we'll look forward to whatever you do next. Thank you, Matt. It's been a real pleasure. Merrick Kirtler is the outgoing president of the University of Toronto. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. of Toronto.