The Current - Weekend Listen: A hometown tour with Jean Chrétien (via The House)

Episode Date: November 1, 2025

He may be known as ‘the little guy from Shawinigan’, but Jean Chrétien’s impact on his hometown has been anything but small. And at 91, the former prime minister seems far from slowing down. In this exclusive documentary from The House, host Catherine Cullen travels to Shawinigan, Quebec to spend the day with the former prime minister. She learns about how the small city shaped his political career, what he’d say if he was in a room with Donald Trump, and his fiery take on Albertans who want to separate from the rest of Canada.Politics these days can seem like one big shouting match. On The House, Catherine Cullen cuts through the noise. Every Saturday she makes politics make sense, taking you to Parliament Hill and across Canada for in-depth interviews, documentaries and analysis of the week’s news. More episodes of The House are available here: https://link.mgln.ai/nLqBQW

This is a CBC podcast. Hi, it's Catherine Cullen. It has been a pleasure to step in for Matt and host the current this week. Before I go, I wanted to share a special feature from my own show, The House. I recently visited former Prime Minister Jean Crecheeng in his hometown of Schoenigan and got his take on today's global threats and why Canadians must unite in the face of it all. At 91, the famously candid Kretchen is really holding nothing back.

You'll hear why he thinks Trump is a threat to demolition. democracy, why separatism is a bad idea for Albertans, and also more of his more personal side, brought out by his memories of his late wife, Aline. Have a listen to the house. So, Bonjour, Monsieur Cretien. Thank you very much for doing this, sir. I know you're very much in demand.

Oh, a little bit, yes. You were in. I thought this was remarkable. You were in Ukraine in August. Why? Why did you decide? Because I wanted to go to Ukraine. I'm curious. You got to see President Zelensky while you did.

Yes, not very long, do. Did you share a message with him? Was there something you wanted to say to him? Yes, yes. Can you tell us? No. No, I just said, you know, I was impressed by the resilience there. When you believe in things, you have to fight for your ideas.

Just because Jean-Cretchen is out of politics doesn't mean he's done fighting. He's still got plenty of opinions. He's still out and about sharing them, talking to key players, including that trip to Ukraine. And on top of it all, he's been quietly giving back in his hometown of Schwinnigan, Quebec. A few weeks ago, we went to Schoenigan to meet up with the former Prime Minister and saw firsthand just how fiery he still is. I'm Catherine Cullen, and this is a special edition of the House looking at the big shadow cast by the little guy from Schoenigan. Plus, the U.S. ambassador is bleeping mad about those TV ads by Ontario.

We'll talk Canada, US, and whether this budget might be about to send us into an election. I'm joined by my friends from our election podcast, House Party, Danielle Tibaut, and Jason Marcosoff. But we begin with Canada's 20th Prime Minister in his element. The House in Chewinigan with Jean-Cretchen. Hacheng is now in session. So you can see all these gifts that Aline and I receive, you know, rather than put them in boxes,

we made it available to the city of Shornian, and they did that with that. Because I say to have 800 gifts in your living room, it's a lot of dust. So the city decided to take over the job of dusting them. Even at 91 years old, Jean-Cretien definitely isn't just sitting around dusting his souvenirs. Though he has got a lot of them, hundreds of gifts from world leaders and ambassadors on display here at the Prime Minister Jean-Cretien Museum in Chouinigan, Quebec. Kretchen walks between the glass display cases, containing vases, statues, commemorative plates, even a special piece of sports equipment.

I wanted to ask you about the baseball bat. over there. It's a gift that George W. gave to me. What do you remember about getting that baseball bat from George W. Bush? You know, the problem with him, very different than Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton loved to argue. He wants to convince you. It takes a long time. George was very different. You will have a position. He will express it. It's easy if you have a disagreement. We'll rapidly agree to disagree and start to talk baseball and talk football, and he was surprised that I knew so much about baseball and football.

You know, he was the owner of a baseball team. So, because of that, he gave me a baseball bat that I never use against him. What would happen if we put you in a room with President Trump right now, do you think? I don't know, but I'm not looking forward to that. I don't use the An An Anseigneur very easily. Asensoil? to tell him what he wants to know. I'm not strong on that.

Flattery is not your number one weapon? Flattery has never been known to be good at it. I think you've got a bit of a gift for humor, at least, sir, or no? Humor was the best way to tell the truth. Truth, coal, is difficult to swallow. But when you put the sugar of humor around, you can tell the truth. and they can swallow it. I was struck, I was reading something that you wrote about Bill Clinton,

that when you first met him, you told him, I can't be that close to you as a Canadian person. I don't want to be too close to you, I said to him. He was a bit shocked. Why did you say that to him? Because I wanted to tell him that Canada was an independent country, and I used the phrase, because if I'm too close to you,

the people will think I'm the 50th first state of America. Remember, that's the phrase I used. And it was, I never met the guy. We were in Seattle. He was sitting there. I was sitting here. And I said that to him. It's not what he expected.

And he became an extremely good friend of mine. You know, we have to show your color. That's all. Bonjour. You know, where do you come to where? Sudbury. Sudbury. There's shock on the faces of four tourists from Ontario.

as the subject of this museum walks up to them and shakes their hands. The former prime minister, who was an MP for 36 years and led the country for over a decade, introduces himself. My name is Kretien. The woman from Sudbury thanks Kretchen for all he's done for the country. He replies he did his best. Thank you for all for our country. Oh, you've made more much, madam. Welcome to my place, he adds.

No question. Schuenegan is his place. Throughout his decades in politics, he was known as Le Petigard de Schoenigan, the little guy from Schuenegan. In his time leading the country, he saw Canada through the 1995-Covember the attacks of 9-11 and their aftermath and famously kept this country out of the second U.S. war in Iraq.

But since leaving office, he's continued to come back to Schwinnigan. It's a nice city, is it not? It's beautiful, a lot of nice cafes. You know, it's a small town, but it's my town. Is it still in your head? It's still home? Oh, it's my home.

Yeah. I started here and I will finish here. Schwenigan is a community of about 50,000 people, halfway between Montreal and Quebec City. In recent years, Kretchen, has helped set up new social services for the community, including a respite center and a palliative care home. But as much as he's defined the city,

it's helped define him, too. You were always known as the little guy from Schuenegan, Lipskelde Schuenegan. Why do you think that stuck? Because, you know, I was elected young. You know, they started to call me. I was the youngest MP at the election of 63. In fact, at that time, I was the second youngest since Confederation.

Since that time, they have reduced the age to 18, so there's many more. But at that time, we were voting at 21. So they started to call me the little guy from Chauan, and everybody is a bit surprised because I'm not small. Yeah, you're a pretty tall guy. Yeah, but it was my nickname here. They called me Tijian. That's it. I was. I started to grow. I was older. So when I was 13, 14, I was rather small. It's only 17 that I reached my height. So that's the way, yeah, was known, and I'm still known as the little guy from Schoenheim. I'm so interested in the way that being from Schwinnigan shaped you and the way you did politics. What would you say is the most significant thing about being from Schwenigan shaped you? What would you say is the most significant thing about being from.

from here that you brought with you into leadership? You know, this city was a very prosperous cities in the 40, the 50s. And all that disappeared when petrochemistry came. So factories after factories were closing here. It was the city with the highest per capita income, I guess, in Quebec. And suddenly that became, over the time, a poor city. and that has nothing to do with governments and so on. It was just a change of technology.

So we went through that very difficult period of time. I think we lost four or five thousand of these very well-paid jobs. I'm still amazed that they kept me at their MP during this difficult period. Where I can only say to them, you know, we have to live with that. So we have to find other ways and do other things. and to go through that period. Now the city has come back quite a lot. And I was apparently working quite hard,

and they were very generous in their support. And if I had the career I had, is because these people here, right at the beginning, had faith in a little boy of 29. And I promised my wife that I was to quit before 70, and I quit. I was 69, 11 months, and one day. I want to talk about some of the problems you've worked to solve and some lessons that we can learn now.

So you talked about the change in Schwinn again over the years as industry changed. This is an area that has done a lot of trade with the United States. When you were the MP, there were paper mills, the aluminum smelter, softwood lumber. Obviously, that trading relationship, that free trade relationship is under a lot of strain right now. I wonder how you think this trade war is changing. the country? You know, we were free trader here, because everything we were producing was exported. We're selling a lot of wood.

But at the beginning we had in the St. Maris Valley, seven paper mills, all newsprint. Now there's no more newspapers, you know, using paper very much. So, you know, we had to live with change, and change is always frightening. you know, even if they claim they are very progressists, suddenly they become afraid of change. And there's nothing you can do when you're hit by situation that we cannot control. You have to adjust. And it is a good example of perseverance. You know, we're living through probably a period of enormous change.

We don't know what will be the result of it. You know, suddenly the Americans are going down. like 1918, complete protection is closing the border. So we'll have to face that new challenge. It's not a challenge only for us. It is a challenge for them too. And it's a challenge for the world. And what will be the end result?

I'd like to know, but I don't know. You said during the first Trump administration that when it comes to free trade, you can't reverse an omelette. but we see this second Trump administration is acting with an intensity that is unlike the first one. Do you think free trade with the United States is in jeopardy? You know, in reality, we never had a real free trade agreement. They signed it, but they were not respecting it during my time.

We'll go to arbitration, we'll win, and they were so, so what? So we had always to renegotiate. It was always very often a negotiated trade deal we had on a daily basis. You know, when it was suiting them, they would use the free trade to justify their move. But when it was an embarrassment for them, they didn't pay attention to it. It was pretty different than taking on the whole world the way they are now. But, you know, they would have. to live with a reality. We need them, and they need us very much. And they will need us even

more when they look at all their plans. You know, I'm very proud of one thing when I sign, finished the agreement that was started by the previous government on the free trade agreement between Canada, U.S. and Mexico. It was not finished when I became prime minister, so I finish it with Bill Clinton. And I'm very proud that I excluded from the three-day water that wasn't the three-day before. That will become, in the next generation, extremely important because we have 20% of the fresh water in the world. It's a hell of an asset. Does Donald Trump want our water? Do you think so? He wants it. Of course, he wants it. You want everything that is good in Canada. You know,

Oh, ambition is one thing, but it's not available free. You will have to negotiate. It is in our interest to have good relations with the American, and it is in their interest to have good interest with us. So we'll have to adjust, and it will be sector by sector and so on, a bit like the automobile agreement, you know, was signed when I was 1965, the auto-5. It was working extremely well, and it was a very easy concept. There should be as many jobs in Canada as the proportion of cars we buy.

So we'll have to come back to an agreement that works for both. But it will be with a lot of rubbing shoulders, but the public life is made for rubbing children. I would like to understand. You dealt with so many world leaders over the years. There is something unique about what Donald Trump is doing right now. He says he hates his enemies. He is using the U.S. justice system against them. He is relying on executive power to get a lot of things done. Immigration raids where people are being handcuffed in the streets. Do you think Donald Trump is a threat to democracy? He is. He is. because it does not care much about the rule of law. And the Western society is built on the rule of law. When there has no more rule of law, it's blackmail on a daily basis, and it's not working. So how long it will last, he will not be there forever. And there will be a price to pay for that.

I don't know what will be the result. It could cause a lot of problems out of the border. This seems to run away from values that made United States these states. So does it bother you then to see world leaders? I mean, world leaders are generally, they flatter him, they appeal to him. Prime Minister Carney calls him a transformational president. You say he's a threat to democracy. Yeah, but it's not a good transformation.

But should world leaders be more vocal about the threat he poses? But, you know, the problem is we have to fight for our lives. values that are well known. We are a trading nation by nature. You know, we produce minerals. We have to sell them. We cannot use them all in Canada. We have wood. We have to sell it. We cannot use it all in Canada. We have electricity. We have energy more than anybody else. So it's an asset that we should use, but we should sell too. So, you know, it's complicated And the word will be different and we'll have to adjust. But if you ask me if I'm very pessimistic, I said, no.

You know, I've been around for, I was the president of the young liberal in 1956 at LaValle University. You were not very old. And, you know, so I've seen a lot of periods. Sometimes we were more or less discouraged. We thought there was times I thought it was terrible. We had violence, we had terrorism in Europe, in murder all the times and so on. We look back and we went through it. So today we face, as I had to face all my life, a wall that the hell will get over or run it or underneath it.

But the end of the day, we managed to do it. So I think we'll manage again. I want to talk about this in the context of national unity, which was obviously so central to your time as prime minister. This trade war is causing tensions within the country, different provinces. On the contrary, it's a united Canada more than ever. Even when you see BC saying softwood lumber isn't necessarily getting the attention that autos is... Madam, it's been always like that. Blaming the federal government, the tension between areas, it's always been like that.

Never change. I'd like to say that. If you have a problem in a municipality or a city, you blame the provincial government if you can. If you're a provincial government and you have difficulties, you look around the easy attack, blame the federal government. For us, we try sometimes to blame the Americans because we cannot blame the queen or the king anymore. So, you know, it's always like that. And it's no worse today that it was before, because as I said, that we should offer Donald Trump the other of Canada because he has united the Canadian more than ever. But that does not say that we don't have problem.

We'll always have problems. And in that regard, I just want to understand your assessment of what is happening in front of us. Is it Quebec separation? the separatist sentiment in Alberta, or Donald Trump's desert. Everybody should all read the Clarity Act. Did you read it? Well, I was going to ask you about Donald Trump as well.

I'm quite sure he hasn't read the Clarity Act. But Quebec, Alberta, Trump would... But you know, we have a law in Canada that to get out of Canada, it's not just like posting a letter. Even it's more difficult today. You know, it's very complicated now. The question has to be approved by Parliament of Canada. It has to be a clear majority. It was voted by a huge majority of the House of Commons.

It is the law of the land. It's not easy. So why to go through that? They will lose. Quebecers don't want to quit Canada. If you ask an honest question, another question of 100 words, a question. Do you want to separate from Canada?

When you have a poll with these words, it's clear. They don't want that. But if you tell them who can have a better deal, oh, everybody wants to have a better deal. But what's happening in Alberta right now? Yeah, but Alberta is a landlocked country. Look at the Premier. Now she wants the federal government to intervene in B.C. to help Alberta.

But don't do anything in Alberta to help the rest of Canada. Oh, no, no. Come on, you cannot double talk all the time like that. And it's a landlocked country, province. How can they build a pipeline? They would have to go in the north through Canada, to the east, through Canada, to the west through Canada. And I wish them good luck to avoid a pipeline in the state of Washington,

to go to the Pacific. Do you think there's a new pipeline? Not just that one. There's also Mark Carney revived the idea of Keystone XL. Do you think there's a new pipeline in Canada's future? It is, it is to be an economic thing. Apparently, there is nobody who wants to do it by the private sector. So the bad feds will have to pay for it.

You know, come on. You know, the market forces exist. You know, they never sold as much oil as they do today. And they're complaining as if they were bankrupt. Come on. You know, you're not alone in a country. You live with other provinces where all can. Canadians, and the values of Canada says we're able to share.

There was years when Alberta was – my mother is from Alberta. During the 30s, my uncles and my grandfather could not come. They were too poor. But, you know, we were helping them, and now is that time for them to help the rest of Canada. It's been 30 years since the 1995 referendum. I don't need to tell you. I know you remember that very clearly. Do you think Canada did a good enough job

learning the lessons of that moment? It's always been a struggle since the beginning. You know, there's always a problem. You go in a city, the people from the downtown fight against the people of Upper Town and all that jazz. Human relation is always complicated. But we are together since quite a long time. And, you know, as I say, we're very privileged.

proud Canadian. You know, I'm a proud Canadian. My country is Canada. I'm a proud Quebecers because I am from here. I'm very proud Francophone because I still speak with the French accent and all that jazz. You know, we can be the diversity in our unity is an example to the world. I remember speeches by Bill Clinton during the referendum talking about the tragedy if a country like Canada cannot survive. We can have a country per language or dialect that exists in the world. Every country have many languages and so on. We're not alone, but we're a good example of success with our diversity.

When you look back at your time leading the country, what do you think is the most important way that you changed Canada? I don't know. You know, you're not very good judge in your own case. your own case. I've done my best. You know, probably the best advice I've received was from a blue color here who had said to me, Jean trust the judgment of the people. When you're convinced that you're doing the right thing, do it. And they had a choice. They could vote me out. And in politics, we know that you can be voted out. And sometimes if you're

voted out your family is very happy. You know, I was very lucky. I was elected 12 times, 11 in this district. They kept faith in me during very difficult time. So it's why I'm coming here, you know, I still work for them on all sort of factors, and friends, privately and even helping them to have the biggest hydrogen project in Canada and so on. Because, you know, these are are my people. I'm happy when I'm with them. And they're kind of very nice with me. So I cannot ask for a better situation. He leaves his mark. And I think that if you're promen on the road, I think that all everyone knows Mr. Cretien. If Jean Cretien is devoted to his hometown, many people in

Schwinnigan are equally devoted to him. As part of this special edition of the House, In Schoenigan, with Canada's 20th Prime Minister, we stopped a few people on the street. Many worked with Kretien, some were even related. Diane Potvin-Pronevo tells me he left his mark. She starts to tear up and says Schoenigan loves the former Prime Minister. Because we love it, and we stop another woman, Denise Lejean. She says she's distantly related to Kretchen's late wife.

He's proud to be a Schoenegener, you know. until he dies, he's going to take good care of Schoenigan. We're proud having him... He's like a father to everybody, you know? He's always there, and if you want to talk to him, he's always going to wait, and he's always going to be there. He was known throughout the country, and maybe even beyond, as the little guy from Schoenigan.

What was it that the rest of the country might not have realized they were seeing his Schoeneganness? How did you see that and how he led? Well, I thought that he was doing a great... work everywhere he was going, you know. And one thing is for sure is that just the way he was treating his wife. He always put her first, you know, and he always said, well, if I'm doing that, it's because of my wife, you know.

He always made sure that she came first, you know. So that was a really good example. Kretchen's public image was of a scrappy political fighter, but the private man depended on his wife Elin to navigate life in politics. politics. The two met as teenagers. She passed away five years ago. Part of the Jean-Cretchen museum is dedicated to her. What is it like for you to come here? You know, they've done a good job. And, you know, I would not have been prime minister if she had not been my companion.

She was 16 and I was 18. And when I started to get involved in politics, and she was always around, applauding, commenting very privately, and telling me the truth, the real truth. It was extremely useful. Is there a particular moment you remember as leader where she told you something you needed to hear? No.

I don't know. But the most important one, when she decided, you know, I was not to run a third term. But some have been in Polly during the convention of 2000. And she was not happy. They were sort of saying, hey, you should get going on. She said, you had worked too hard to face that nonsense. And when everybody was asking me to run for a third time, I said, no. Promise, Saline, I'm leaving next year. She got out, and everybody was disappointed.

I said, no, no, it's my last term. She got out, reopened the door, put half of her body back in the room and shot four more years. She got a standing ovation. And she was giving me the permission to run a third time, and it was my best mandate. Can you tell me a bit about the beginning of your relationship with her, your first date? You met in Schoen again. You know, it's a very interesting story. I had a brother, Michelle.

It was Cane Val Cartier as a cadet. And he called me one day, and he said, I'm going to Shaolin. He was only 16. I was 18. He said, I'm going to Shaolin with 11 friends. And we want to go dancing at La Plage de Al. Can you find girls from?

us. And I was very shy with girls. I had no girlfriend. So, but when it was for me, I was afraid to be turned away, but for others it was not me. And I saw this beautiful little young girl in the bus and I asked her to come. And she said, I will go but with you, not with a stranger. I said fine and her mom said no she was very shy to come to tell me that and I said why don't we go to the movie the day after

and it started that way changed your life she was 16 and I was 18 and we were married 63 years 68 years five years ago last month that she passed away

I'm very sorry I miss her a lot but that is one day when George got elected George Bush they wanted to have

the office of the First Lady pictures of Aline and why and they said because she is Madame Bush would like to have it

because she has a reputation of being extremely well-dressed And it's an exhibition of what she was. That's beautiful. As there is something written there, the Americans are Jackie Kennedy. The Canadian had increased it. You're still so proud of her, right? And I like the way they've presented that.

I read you wrote about, or I think it was actually some of your former colleagues wrote about how important she was in keeping you in touch with Schoenigan, that she was always talking to people here, keeping you connected to the community. But she was, at the beginning, we had no staff. You know, when I was elected, there was one secretary for two MP. That was the staff. So locally, she was doing the job. People will call her.

She will tell me so and so on to see you. And people, a lot. Even my staff, when I was not moving, they will go. The last appeal was to go to Aline. It's the last chance we have. And did it work sometimes? Sometimes. Necessarily.

Hello, madame. How much so? Very well. Thank you, Mr. Fittier. With the people to see here. At the M. The last place we visit is the Maison Aline-Cretien. Bien-ne.

The last place we visit is the Maison-Lene-Cretien. The former Prime Minister helped raise some $850,000 to fund this hospice named after his late wife. It's beautiful here. It's well done. How long has the Maison been operating? Oh, I started to work on that about. How long has been open? Seven years.

When people look at what you and Aline have contributed to Schuinen, over the year. the years, even since you were Prime Minister, what do you hope that they take away from that, what they say? You know, I hope they will remember us positively, and I think it is the case. You know, they wanted to have her name on this building. It was not me who asked for it. In fact, she was a bit shy about it. You know, we visited the museum.

She did not want her to be there. She had refused. They wanted to do that at the beginning. It's only in the last years of his life that she, accepted. Because, you know, she was like that. She didn't want to show off. Do you think about how your time in office is remembered by Canadians what people take away from your own political legacy? You know, I'm not preoccupied about it. People always think about what will be his legacy. For me, it's never been my problem. In fact, I never replied

to that question. They would say, what you'd like to have as a legacy. I say, I'm doing my best, and you will write whatever you want anyway, and I will not be there to read it, so I'm not very much interested. But it is what I said. I hope they were right about me. Just I did my job the best I could with the qualities that I had, and it's pleasant because when I get out these days, everybody remember my time as Prime Minister has a very good time for Canada, who had all sort of people. problem and we found solutions and we kept the country united and we had balanced the books and we said no to the war in Iraq. But I was not talking much about it. I was just doing my best. Undersell overperform was my motto. Pretty good for a little guy from Schoenigone. Yeah, not bad.

Mr. Croutin, thank you very much. My pleasure. Thank you very much. Former Prime Minister Jean-Cretier. There's lots more coming up on the House podcast. We're reuniting the House Party team to talk about whether Canada might be going into another election. I'm Catherine Cullen. You're listening to The House. Making politics make sense.

Please like, follow, review the pod and tell us what you think. You can email us at the House, at cbc.ca.ca. A lot to take in there from former Prime Minister Jean-Cretchen, including some pretty tough words for Alberta. We're going to talk about that, Canada-U.S. relations as well and the upcoming budget with the crew from House Party,

our election podcast. Danielle Thibault is the Bureau of Chief of Radio Canada in Ottawa and host of Les Cruelies du Pouvaal, and Jason Marcossoff is a producer and writer for CBC in Calgary, focusing on the West. Hey, guys, great to be back with you. Hey, good to see you both. Catherine, Dan, this is awesome.

Back. Absolutely awesome. Okay, Jason, I want to start with you, actually, because we've got to talk about what Jean-Cretchen was saying there about Alberta, Daniel Smith. Specifically, he accuses her of double talk. How do you think those comments are going to play in Alberta? I'm trying to remember the last time that Daniel Smith

and the United Conservative Party government passed up an opportunity to take umbrage at something coming from a... Coming from liberal Ottawa, whether they take the bait on somebody who hasn't been in power in more than two decades, we shall see. But he's going to open up some wounds here, especially because he was a minister back in the 80s when the bad old national energy program came in. It's interesting to hear what he said about there's not a case for the pipeline. There's an economic case of the pipeline. And yes, it's true that no private builder wants to build it now, but people out here will say that's because of all. all the regulations on climate inhibiting more greenhouse gas emissions or inhibiting the tanker

traffic. What he's saying, especially about Alberta, doesn't help the rest of the country when there's so much economic wealth being generated here and so much of our trade relationship generated here, I think won't smack true or fair to a lot of Albertans. And I don't even know if the Carney government, not only might they find anything convenient, but it doesn't necessarily resemble a lot of what they think or say either. Well, indeed, Mark Carney is the one who's bringing up Keystone XL in front of Donald Trump, apparently. Yeah, yeah.

Speaking of kind of throwbacks, his talk about NAFTA and free trade and Dan, and this talk about, we never really had free trade. Is that a bit of his way saying there's nothing new under the sun or what do you think his point is there? That was interesting. I was listening to that and it made me smile. It basically says the U.S. does whatever the U.S. wants to do, right? And we saw it during his terms. Softwood lumber is the example that comes to mind.

It's still an issue today. It feels like it's always been an issue. And Canada goes to a trade tribunal and we win. And then the U.S. says, yeah, whatever. And they keep doing whatever they want. And I think that's what he was saying. And it made me think that basically what we're seeing today is a bit of an empt-up version of how the U.S. treats its trading relation with Canada, basically, since the very beginning.

It's a big, big neighbor that has big power, big needs, and big means to apply them, and they're basically doing whatever they want. It was fun, and it was said in a very Jean-Cretien tone. I've talked to him a few years back, and it's always a great conversation. There was amazing moments in the talk you had with him, Catherine. I'd like to hear you, because I always get something back out of every conversation I have with Mr. Kretchen. What do you take out of it?

I mean, top line, I do really think it's just extraordinary to see this man who is 91 years old. He'll be 92 in January, and he is still so engaged. He's still throwing out these fireballs in terms of his opinion. Again, like, why did you go to Ukraine, Mr. Kretchen? Well, I wanted to go to Ukraine, you know, just his energy level. I got called Madame a few times there, which I think is his way of saying that he doesn't necessarily agree with the question he was just asked. I also thought, though, in terms of the moments that stood out, when he talked about Donald Trump and said, you know, he's not good for democracy, I am struck by the fact that that is so much easier for someone to say when they've been out of office for 20 years. I mean, it would have been quite interesting to imagine an alternative scenario where Jean-Kartan makes a case that Donald Trump isn't a threat to democracy and everything is just tickety-boo fine.

So if he's faced with these two things, he doesn't, you know, why does he need to obfuscate at the age of 91 when he's. he's that far out from government. He can just call a spade a spade, and watching him do that and, you know, not feeling particularly inhibited. It was never brought back into the fold. Brian Maroney back in the days was actually brought back by the government at the table to advise them on how should we navigate this environment. Mr. Krizien has always stayed on the sideline of that. It shows up. It's the Gomery inquiry, I guess. But you know what, you know what that? So two things I thought about the interview that really struck me. One was the Aline moment. The four more years story, oh my God, my heart like

melted. The other one, it made me kind of think, when are we going to start to hear from Justin Trudeau reflecting? It might be a while, but it made me wonder what he would say in this moment as now a former. Probably how much he adores Katie Perry, but who knows, who knows? Listen, Dan, I do want to ask you, because there's a lot going on in politics right now. Trump threatening to increase tariffs by another 10% on Canada. We have this extraordinary moment at this event this week here in Ottawa. U.S. Ambassador Pete Hoekstra ranting cursing at Ontario's representative in Washington, David Patterson, who was just on this program a couple weeks ago about those Reagan ads.

Like, are we hitting rock bottom now? Man, what's going on? Every time I think we hit a new low, I figure, is there any possible way we can go any lower than that? And then two, three weeks later. Things get bleep and worse. I know. I know. I know. So I'm not quite sure. Is it a new low?

I believe so. Is it the lowest we'll get? Possibly not. I think you need to take what was said in the past week and a half with a bit of a grain of salt. This is not the first time that the talks are halted by Donald Trump. He did that in June, early July, if I'm not mistaken. And then we found a way back in. I think the challenge is going to be, how do we get back in?

What do we do to get back in? What do we give up to get back in? Do we give up something to keep the discussion going? And this is going to have to be a serious question that Ottawa asked themselves and likely after a broad conversation with the provinces because you're starting to see the Team Canada approach cracking here and there. And I'm hearing more and more from provinces that maybe we should adopt a a bit of a stronger tone or a stronger approach because the nice way of doing things hasn't

worked so far. And so it'll be interesting to see how that goes. They were in Asia, the two of them. They had a bit of a cheer at the table. I don't think they were toasting Canada-U.S. relations. No, no, no. No, but they looked each other in the eyes. I thought it looked like a glare in the pictures.

Yeah, well, we hear that they've had like a, well, from the Canadian side anyway, they told us like it was a good chat, a good chat, good conversation. How hard, Jason, do you think we should be pushing to speak to Donald Trump and get those talks going? I mean, on one hand, you think that there's going to be some, like, wait for things to cool down. I mean, we know that Mark Carney is not one to go fit of peak for fit of peak with Donald Trump. And I think, you know, with this rhetoric rising high, with this Supreme Court hearing coming up in a very soon here. on into the validity of the tariffs. Trump's going to be hot and looking for people to blame and looking for people to swing at.

So maybe now it's not the time. But the one thing, I mean, you can read all you want into the toasting. But one of the things that Mark Carney and the government has is that Mark Carney has a good relationship with Donald Trump. He's lashed out at Doug Ford. He's latched out of Canada. He hasn't lashed out at Mark Carney yet. And I think that if that happens, that is a, it does he point.

And I would say about the tensions with the provinces, the nationally unity things. Yes, there is some anxiety from Ford and from David Eby, but a lot of it has to do with the China relationship. It's interesting to see how the China relationship and, you know, our tariffs on their EVs, their tariffs that are really cracking up the nationally Indy on Canola. I mean, there are so many balls in the air. And, I mean, he's, you know, he just met today with us, Xi Jinping.

Nothing really big happened, but something might be moving, you know, there. Something might be moving in other places. Where do you see the government going next, Catherine? Well, specifically on Canada, U.S., I mean, I think a few things are happening. I think you're right to talk about the fact that it does still seem like Trump admires Mark Carney. And so I think that's Mark Carney's card that he's trying to play here. He's trying not to look too desperate. I thought it was interesting.

He was asked by reporters this week whether they'd been texting and he just didn't answer that question. But you see, like, Carney often, it's interesting, Jean-Cranche and talked about during our conversation using humor to political effect. He said to me at one point, you know, it's like sugar to help the medicine go down. Carney tries to employ humor too, right, trying to get Donald Trump to laugh a little. Maybe they look each other in the eyes and maybe, oh, could we rekindle things? That said, what was this really about, right? We feel that the blow up in so many ways was fundamentally about these ads. But was it also about frustration with how the conversations were going behind closed doors

that Canada was slow walking, trying to get the Americans to sort of give in on some key stuff to get a deal on sectoral tariffs. I saw one commentator saying we've gone from elbows up to maybe it's time to rag the puck now. Now, if you're in an affected industry, I don't know how good you're going to feel about ragging the puck as a strategy. But wearing down the Americans over time in order to get what we want, if this is really about the Americans saying, like, we just won't play ball. We're just not going to go there. You have to crack the door back open not only because of this, but also because, of course, we're talking about Kizma renewal, right? like more broadly the renewal of the free trade relationship,

which has enormous economic wide consequences. Yeah, that's huge. But it is this balance of like, you know, getting the timing right, being patient and, you know, how much we have to, I guess, swallow in order to get the door back open with the Americans. I want to talk about another issue that is sweeping the nation's capital this week, Dan, because the budget, of course, is coming up early next week. What are you hearing about who's ready to support this budget? because if there aren't enough folks, we're going to be back in an election.

And I love you guys. I do love doing House Party. Oh, we could do our thing again. But which political party might get in the way of that? Who might support this? If you, publicly, no one seems to be willing to support the liberals on that. So that's a bit of a problem. Of course, what you see publicly is one thing.

Behind the scene, there's a lot, a lot going on. And there's not that many parties willing to go back to the polls right now. I was talking to, I'm not going to give party callers, but I was talking to one leader this week who said, I think Mark Carney would like the budget to pass, but he's also okay if it doesn't go. Like he's willing to take it to the polls, if that's what it means, meaning I don't think he's willing to do that much of a compromise to get someone to play with him. I think the conservatives are not super interested in an election right now, neither are the NDP. The block could go, because it's a small. election, right? It's always, you run in a province, the machine is there, they've got the money,

they could probably get going fairly quickly. I don't think they absolutely wants to go for Christmas. I think ultimately, they'll either convince a few MPs to vote with the government or they'll convince a few MPs to just disappear when vote comes. What's your sense out, West Jason? How's that playing out on your side? On the election front, I don't, you know, there's a lot of big group here that always wants liberals out, but I don't know if they're champing at the bit, to get them out right now, especially when we're waiting for so much. We're waiting to see, you know, it's a big wait and see with Carney on this from the Alberta government, from Albertans, hoping for some relaxation of climate regulations, maybe moving the tanker ban. We'll see what comes out in the climate competitiveness plan that he's proposing, which is, of course, very different from a climate action plan of his predecessor.

But this may not be the big moment. I think how many weekends of CFL playoffs until we get to the Grey Cup and the projects list. And seeing how far along pipelines are is going to be the big thing. Speaking of weeks, are we a few weeks out to an election, Colin? I hear your trepidation. I have to say, I think, over the course of the last few days in the Parliament Hill bubble, the temperatures really ratcheted up. I mean, if you had asked me a week ago, I would have said, no way, no how, that is inconceivable. But there's this a little bit of a fervor, I think.

Dan, I don't know if you would agree, that's sort of shaping up with... The Christmas election that everyone seems to be accusing the other guy to want. Yeah, and I mean, you sort of laid out the case for a while, like, it might work for some folks and not for others. I think at the end of the day, though, this government was brought in by Canadians to get stuff done. And I really don't think the population, the public would have a lot of patience for an election right now. It was tough having an election when we were already in this moment of uncertainty with the U.S. So then you got the U.S., you got the major projects, you got the China relationship, putting everything on pause right now.

It just seems like a bad idea. And I also think Mark Carney's brand was supposed to be that he wasn't going to play politics too much, right? So that, to me, means no election. Let's get this thing done. But, you know, if Canadian politics is about anything, it's been about surprises over the last of a while. If there's an election, that would be like we would vote somewhere

around the 15th of December. Some people said maybe between Christmas and New Year's, that'd be awful. But let's see the budget lands first. I think it's going to be the big question. I mean, and it is going to be, I feel like I've hit Peacotta away here, but it is going to be an extraordinary budget, guys. I really do think this is a big moment.

It's going to be fascinating to see what happens on Tuesday. I'm glad I got to talk to you guys about it in the lead-up. Thank you both for your time today. Daniel Tibu and Jason Markisov. And I will be co-hosting CBC Radio's budget special this Tuesday with Susan Bonner. That is at 4 p.m. Eastern. You can catch that on the radio or on the CBC News app. Just click, listen here.

Okay, that is it for us this week. Our crew on the house is Kristen Everson, Emma Godmere, Benjamin Lopez-Steven, and our senior producer is Jennifer Chevalier, technical production by Miguel Plante. If you want to see Jean-Cretchen in action, we've also put together a version of this story that will air soon on the National. You can find it on the CBC National YouTube page this Saturday at noon eastern. I am Catherine Cullen.

Thank you so much for listening. For more CBC podcasts, go to CBC.ca.ca slash podcasts.