The Current - What political chaos in Quebec means for Canada

Episode Date: December 16, 2025

There's been a lot going on in Quebec politics this year while many of us may have had our eye on the Canada-US relations. The Quebec government has been under fire for its policies on doctors, on secularism, on a new constitution, and more. The new leader of the opposition Quebec Liberals is under heavy pressure to resign. And the Parti Quebecois, which many had written off, is now talking about winning the next election in October, and promising a  referendum when it does. We talk to Emilie Nicolas, a columnist for Le Devoir in Montreal, and Valérie Gaudreau, a political columnist for Le Soleil in Quebec City about the future of Quebec politics, and its impact for Canada.

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Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. For much of the year across this country, the political conversations have been dominated by the Trump-Karnie relationship, questions around what's coming. at us next from south of the border, and the grand bargain the federal government struck with Alberta. Meanwhile, there is drama in Quebec, political turmoil that could have national implications. The Quebec government has been under fire for its policies on doctors, on secularism, on a new constitution, and more. The new leader of the opposition Quebec liberals is under heavy pressure to resign, and his party is under criminal investigation for allegations of vote buying. And the party Quebecois, which many had written off for dead, is now talking about

winning the next election in October and promising a referendum when it does. What is going on in Quebec? Joining us now, our Emily Nicolop, columnist for Le DeVois. She is in our Montreal studio. And Valerie Goddreau, a political columnist for Les Soleil. She is in our Quebec City studio. Good morning to you both. Good morning.

Emily, is there a word that you would use to describe the state of politics in your province? It can be in English or in French. Disarray. Disarray. Disarray. there is not a single party at the National Assembly who is doing, who is in good health, essentially. And so it's been a race to the bottom

in terms of people making missteps. And so it leaves Quebecers with difficult choices in terms of what's ahead of them. We'll talk about those difficult choices. Valerie, is there a word that you would like to apply to the situation that you are overseeing in your columns? Just crazy times.

I don't know who thinks politics isn't exciting, but every day was like a roller coaster. I mean, this session, those last month, really lots of self-injured wounds, you know, like really in the inside of the party, more than politics itself. Yeah, it's inside problem that makes everything, like, to a party.

That's crazy. Yeah, crazy. You and I spoke when I was in Quebec City in advance of the federal election, and now, I mean, it's provincial politics. That's the hot topic. Let's start with the party in power. What is going on with the Premier Francois Lago and his party?

Well, he thinks it's going well. Actually, he's been turning the pools for more than two years now. Now, he just, I mean, we can say he ends the year on a good note, knowing that this fight with doctors is number two. He really wants, he opened a fight with the doctors saying, you want to change the way they are paid. He wants more people to be taken in charge by physicians. So that's, that was the whole year almost was this question.

That's now, he really stepped back on lots of things that were contained in this, in this law. Can you explain that for us? I mean, he picked a fight with doctors. People need doctors. He picks a fight with them that leads to huge protests. There are doctors that are threatening to leave the province and go elsewhere, which would increase the doctor's shortage. Why did he pick a fight with Quebec doctors? It's something like an historic war. In Quebec, the way the doctors are paid, it's like same system for like

50 years. And the CAC and the Coalition of Neur Quebec and the health minister, right, Christian Dubet, has been saying since they're elected in 2018, they say, we're going to change it because they have too much power, you know, their privilege, they have lots of money. We paid them nine billions a year, and we still have health problems. So People waiting at the emergency, people don't have family doctors. So the way he could make them change would be by this law and the way they are paid. And the thing is probably he underestimated the mobilization or the way the doctor react to this. So now he's still like he's trying to save his law, but he backtracked back on lots of points.

So it's not only the fight with doctors Emily. There is also this new Quebec Constitution. Why is the KAC, the ruling party, determined to give Quebec its own constitution? I'm going to try to be very concise because there's so many things going on in terms of bills activity, and I think it's important to take them as a whole, and that includes a constitution. The Bill 1, the Constitution, basically what it does, that's being criticized by the Quebec Bar Association, as well as basically everybody that is alive and breeding is the bill. society in Quebec.

Just a small population, but continue. Yeah, yeah, is the fact that essentially introducing this idea of a parliamentary sovereignty, which basically says if a government says a law is about parliamentary sovereignty, then it cannot be challenged in court. Essentially, that's what it says. It also limits the ability of any organization that receives any amount of public funds to be able to challenge bills put forward by the government of Quebec. And it also very randomly enshrines the access to abortion in the Quebec Constitution,

which actually, because there is no law in Canada in abortion, what it does is that by putting that in writing, you open the door to that element of that piece of legislation to be amended in the future. And so it's giving a handle for anti-abortion groups to be able to amend this in the future. So feminist groups and people who defend women's right in Quebec are absolutely angry, not to use stronger words, at this. So it's something that has been put forward without any consultation. It basically obliterates a lot of First Nations rights as well. by writing Quebec Constitution without them, that barely also mentions First Nation in Inuits in Quebec.

And so it's a real issue. There's Bill 2 that Valle just mentioned on doctors. And really the bottom line in terms of what the protests were about, were more about the autonomy of the medical profession that was under attack by the government. There's Bill 3 that attacked unions and their ability to use union dues to be able to to fight for policy battles rather than just about the Rights Convention. There's Bill 7 that basically does many other things, but one in which is politicizing people who do scientists,

basically who do research in public health, as well as shut down community organization, receiving public funds from being able to criticize the government without having those funds being threatened. And I think a lot of people didn't even necessarily notice in the rest of the country that we've actually created more barriers to access to employment for women who wear the hijab in Quebec. And so Bill 21 has been strengthened and it now applies to women who work in kindergarten and daycare and other employments, basically everything that has to do with working even remotely in connection with school.

So I'm out of breath just saying that. I just want to say that a lot of Quebecers who are concerned about the rule of law and human rights are also out of breath. There was a huge union protest a couple of weeks ago in Montreal. There are more that are being planned for the spring. The question is, are we going to have a spring in Quebec that's a bit like the 2012 spring when you have massive coalition built by unions, student movements and civil society association? Huge protest. That is the question that we have.

A lot of my friends in Alberta are saying this is very Alberta-like. I think it's not untrue that some of that doesn't resonate necessarily with what you associate Quebec with. But precisely for that reason, I think there's also some turmoil being built up as well. The PWHL is back for the third season of heart-stopping women's hockey. And this season, there are two new teams looking to make their mark on the ice, the Seattle Torrent and Vancouver Golden Eyes. When the world's best women's hockey players face off, anything can happen. Will the Minnesota Frost achieve a three-beat?

Will a new team take home the trophy? There's only one way to find out. Watch the PWH for free on CBCJ. And so, Valerie, you would think that this would be a great opportunity for the official opposition party. There's an election looming. There is all of this chaos that, as Emily said, nobody particularly seems happy about in the province. the official opposition Liberal Party of Quebec elected a new leader. Former Liberal MP Pablo Rodriguez in June.

They should be enjoying this honeymoon period. Instead, he's being told by some people in his own party that he needs to step down. There is this anti-corruption investigation underway right now. What is going on with the liberals? It's just a never-ending crisis for Pablo Rodriguez. You said it is being elected on June 14th. It should have been like an honeymoon or like the Pablo effect. but didn't, it happens for some weeks, but now it's been more than a month that

hauled his corruption, allegation of vote buying. Yel, he still says, I'm not going anywhere, I'm a fighter, I'm getting, I'm staying, but the pressure is very high on him right now. Again, this morning, we learned in the Journal of Montreal that a businessman confessed that he gave $500 cash during a financing party where Pablo Rodriguez, was, even if it's not Pablo Rodriguez himself, there's this whole impression that around him people made some weird stuff for voting and for this campaign. And the thing is, right now, the official opposition is more than Rodriguez himself.

It's been hurting the liberal brand, which is, you know, 150 years old, long history. and they have a lot of problems around Commission Charbonneau there have been an ethics problem correction problem around this party like in 2012 and they've been trying so hard to make the image of this party

back on track to say we change you know we work hard to change and now it's just coming back it's like ghosts hunting the party once again so it's I don't know what he can do I don't think Pablo Rodriguez can can stay very longer.

We don't know if we'll make it until Christmas because there's former MNAs asking for him to resign, former minister. Even yesterday we learned that the Commission Janesse with all the young liberals, they

don't give their support. So it's very, very difficult. Even if, I mean, probably for him, he's, I mean, I'm sure he defends his integrity. He believes it. He said, I'm okay. I've been a MP in Ottawa for 20 years. I've never had edicts problem. You know, believe me. But the thing is this perception, this impression and in politics, you know, it hurts a lot. Emily, he says, Pablo Rodriguez says, I'm absolutely going to stay on as leader. Is he toast, do you think? Will he make the nine days before Christmas?

There's a lot of snow in Quebec right now. You could be a walk in the snow. Walking the snow is still possible. But I think it's important. for people to realize, I guess, beyond the drama, what the issue is. The issue is that the Parts Quebecois is leading in polls and that Paul Saint-Pierrelandal, their leader, is promising a referendum during his first mandate if he got selected. And so having the Federalist camp, the novel side of Quebec, and this disorganized in the current context is putting a lot of pressure on Pablo Rodriguez.

He's being pushed out of his party because a lot of people who are liberals feel like they have a duty to put their ducks in a row and get their stuff together. That the liberals would be the bulwark against any referendum, that they would be the natural party people believe in. back to fight for the no side, for example? Absolutely, because people perhaps don't necessarily remember, but Francois Lago has been elected in 25 years, and he used to be a minister for the parts of Quebecois. He was a minister for Lucein Bouchard. And so his stance is more that,

and he's been saying this in a round of end-of-year interviews in the last couple of days, is that he doesn't believe that having a third referendum that would be loss is a good idea. and that he, Francoe Lago also thinks that even the idea of circulating a referendum, if there was a referendum in the fourth year of a PQ mandate, you would have economic instability during those four years,

given that it creates uncertainty for economic actors just to float this idea around. And so he is opposing, he's a no for logistics and economic reason, he thinks the timing is bad but he's not a Canadian proud nationalist and so for people who it'd be weird to have a former

PQ minister as the head of the no I don't think that's likely going to happen so the liberals do want to get their ducks in a row they want people to have a camp that's actually organized during the No campaign Valerie to Emily's point this is in one reason why people need to be paying very close attention across the country to this story.

When we were in Quebec City, we did a little roundtable, and we spoke with a young sovereignist who said the economic conditions are such that people feel, and he felt, that people feel in his generation that they would be better off out of the country than in the country, that they feel like they could chart their own destiny in some ways by being an independent nation rather than being part of Quebec. How much support do you think there actually is for another referendum in Quebec? Well, the thing is that Paul St. Pierre Plamondon and they depict you right now, as Emily said, they're first in the pool for more than two years now.

They're representing changes, alternative to the cac. But the sovereignty itself, it's like 35%. You know, the party is more popular than the option. So the guest is taking, Paul St. Pierre Plamondon is saying, you will see, I will convince you. But young people, there's maybe some, you know, some, I don't know, like some young people, they say they're sovereignies, but it's still less popular, as I said, than the party himself. So the thing is, could they want like a, yeah, we want to try the Parts Quebecois as a normal government and we'll just vote no if the referendum is coming. And that's why Francoe Legault, as Emily said, is saying, no, be careful because even if he's elected, it could. be economically problem from day one if he's elected.

So the thing is right now we see a little bit of coming back from this idea of sovereignty among young singers, you know, populous, artistic community has always been very close. And people like Lou Adrian Cassidy, we see her recently, she's saying, I will vote yes. So there's like, there's always been this natural community for the yes, but something for the young people is really interesting is Paul St. Pierre Plandon is seen as a more conservative, somewhere a little bit more on the right side or center right. And there is also Quebec Solidar, which also is a party for the independence of Quebec, but on the left side. And the young people, they say, yeah, maybe I would vote yes, but do I want this guy, Paul St. Pierre Plamondon,

being the leader of my new country or having this vision of a country from this guy? So there's the vision. inside the yes camp himself. We're almost out of time. I'll start with you, Valerie. I mean, you talked about it being like a roller coaster. What are you looking for in the roller coaster in the year ahead? Things change very quickly, it seems. Yeah, looking for Rodriguez, of course.

It's an election. There's a by-election also, and she could see me somewhere on March. So we'll see, you know, sometimes it's a sign. We'll see this, we'll see. And all the, everything that has to do with Mr. Lugo himself. He's saying, I'll be back. If the Liberal Party is still collapsing as it is right now, who will benefit of it? So this will be very exciting.

Maybe a race for three people. We'll see. Maybe it will be a three-part race. Emily, from you, what are you going to be looking forward to, or at the very least watching? Again, one of the reasons why we want to have this conversation is because just of how quickly things change and the stakes for not just Quebec, but for the rest of the country as well. I think I'm going to look and watch for anything that happens outside the parliament in a sense that the zeitgease has been shifting to the right, I think everywhere in the Western world in the last couple of years, given movements that are extra parliamentary ideas that have been pushed in a public discourse around immigration, around other things. and they have an influence on Quebec politics like politics around the world.

And I think, as I was saying, there is a resistance brewing to attacks on literally the rollerblah or weakening of the rule of blah that it's rare that you have this coalition of interest that includes both doctors and community organizations. And your sense is that there's a real feeling of anger? There's a real feeling of angers.

There's also people I know are using the holidays to get organized and there will be more action on that in the spring. We'll see how much people can mobilize, but I think it's one of these things where the politics answer to the mood of the day and I think and the ideas that are being thrown around in society and it's been a while since there's been a social movement in Canada that actually influenced politics from the more progressive side. And I think with the collapse of the NDP, we might see some of that really as well, you know, more progressive voices being expressed outside of parliament as well.

And so we'll see if that starts with Quebec in the spring. But that's what I'm going to be watching for. I think sometimes we forget that politics starts with, not with parliament, but with actual people. And I think we're about to get a reminder of that. We will talk again in the spring, perhaps. maybe there'll be new leaders who knows whether there'll be a walk in the snow or not. In the meantime, good to speak with you both again. Thank you very much. Happy holidays. Happy Christmas and all the best.

Thank you. Thank you very much. Happy holidays. Emily Nicola is a columnist for Le Duvoir. She was in our Montreal studio. And Valéry Godreau is a columnist, a political columnist for Les Soleil. She was in our Quebec City studios. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway.

Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca. Thanks.