The Current - What to do about Sir John A. MacDonald statues?

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

There are many statues of Canada’s first Prime Minister across this country — but in recent years statues of John A. Macdonald have been toppled or taken down to protest his role as an architect of the residential schools system and his treatment of indigenous people. We'll talk about what to do about the statues - and why the plans to clean up and uncover one John A. McDonald in Toronto is particularly controversial.

We're all looking for great places to visit in Canada. One of my favorites is the Stratford Festival. The theatre is truly of the highest caliber and there's so much selection. They have 11 large-scale shows on stage and trust me, whatever is on manure there will be exceptional. People always think Shakespeare when they think of Stratford, but it's so much more. Broadway musicals, family shows, classic comedy and drama. Whether it's Robert LaPage's Macbeth or Donna Fior's Annie, you will be blown away.

It's the perfect Canadian getaway. To quote William Shatner, who got his start in Stratford, every Canadian should make the pilgrimage to Stratford. Start your next adventure at StratfordFestival.ca. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. Not long from now, if you walk through the grounds of the Ontario Legislature, you will once again encounter a statue of Sir John A. Macdonald, Canada's first Prime Minister. For the past five years, that monument has been hidden behind construction hoarding,

covered up after it was repeatedly vandalized in the summer of 2020. Protesters were taking aim at Macdonald's treatment of indigenous people and his role as an architect of the residential school system. Now, the Speaker of the Legislature in that province says the statue in Toronto will be cleaned and uncovered. Sol Mamakwa is Ontario's only current Indigenous member of provincial parliament and he is not happy with this decision and warns there could be consequences. When I think about Sir John A. MacDonald, I think about Indian residential schools. Period. And I think when I say, you know, let them learn, let them learn of what's going to happen. And you know, like it might not come down. I don't know. It might come down. It might be spray painted. I don't know. Across this country, statues of John A. Macdonald have been toppled by protesters or taken down

in the past several years in cities like Montreal and Victoria and in small towns like Baden, Ontario. To talk further about how this issue has evolved, I am joined by two guests. Rob Innes is Chair of Indigenous Studies at McMaster University and a member of the Calaisist First Nation. And Anthony Wilson-Smith is the President and CEO of Historica Canada. He's also the former Editor-in-Chief of Maclean's Magazine. Good morning to you both. Good morning.

Good morning. Rob Innes, what do you think? Is it a good idea in this moment in 2025 to uncover this statue at the Ontario Legislature of Sir John A. MacDonald? No, I don't think it is. I mean, we are at a time of, in an era of truth and reconciliation. And I think that simply uncovering the statue at Queen's Park is not really the message in terms of reconciliation, in terms of truth that the government should be sending at this point. I wanna come back to that idea of truth and what that message is, but Anthony Wilson Smith,

from your perspective, what should we do? What should happen with this statue? Should it be uncovered and left to stand there? I see Rob's point. I see where this is going, but I'm of the school that you shine a light on history and you shine a light on all aspects of history. In other words, I think that we cannot ignore his role as the leading father of confederation without whom we would not have Canada and all its strengths and all its weaknesses that

we have today. And at the same time, in putting it up, you know, we should also be discussing through the plaque or otherwise all of the issues that Rob is going to raise and the concerns that come up from that. In other words, as we say in our Canadian Encyclopedia in one of our remarks, he should be remembered but not uncritically celebrated. Rob, when you think of Sir John A. MacDonald, what immediately comes to mind? Oh, for me, what comes to mind is death of First Nation and Metis people and the unbridled desire to annex Western Canada and expand Canadian territory at the expense of Indigenous people. Is there an opportunity in the statue being there to talk about that with the statue still

standing? The Speaker of the Legislature in Ontario has said that the sign will remain on display that says, and the words of the sign are, we cannot change the history we have inherited, we can shape the history we wish to leave behind. Well, you know, the problem with that slogan or that sign is it doesn't really say anything. And what history are we talking about exactly? And the thing about statues is they're there to commemorate and pay tribute. For sure, there's no denying that the importance of Johnny McDonald to the history of Canada

and the place he has in Canadian history, but the statues left alone don't tell the whole story. And so by having statues just standing there really erases the critical part of history that needs to be taught, not just a celebratory part of history. What do you think, and I'll ask you this and then Tony as well, but Rob, what do you think the sign could say? If that slogan doesn't say anything to you, what could be on a sign, if the statue is going to be there, that would give people a sense of the sweep of this man's legacy? Well, I mean, there should be acknowledgement of the death of Indigenous people, the land theft of First Nations people and Métis people, you know, the number of military attacks that were launched against First Nations and Métis people under McDonald, the largest mass hanging,

mass execution that took place in Saskatchewan should be noted and the hundreds and perhaps thousands of First Nation and Métis people who died as a result of a starvation policy that was implemented and approved by McDonald. These are the kinds of things that have to also be included besides the national dream of the railway, the railway which led to ethnic cleansing

and the starvation policy. So there has to be inclusion of the whole history and not the erasure of our history. Tony, what do we do about that? What could that sign, if the statue is going to be there, what could the sign next to the statue say that would help inform those who approach it about, as I say, the full sweep of this man's legacy? Well, I'll give you a parallel which relates to our work,

and that's that, as you'll know, Matt and Rob, hopefully we do the Heritage Minute. So we tell stories of people, and in 60 seconds, we highlight a life we can't possibly tell everything there is to know about that. Some years ago, I think about 2014, we did one on McDonald and his role in the creation of Confederation and therefore of Canada.

And that was before the, you know, before really a lot of the revelations and controversy broke out about him. As a result, in 2020, we pulled the minute for a couple years because we wanted, we, I didn't, it was historically accurate, but I didn't feel comfortable with rendition of McDonald as this cheery, charming, champagne drinking fellow who was just nice to everybody and made good things happen. So when we brought it back, just earlier this year in fact, we then included a couple of essays, one arguing in favour of his legacy, all of it, as a lot of people do, and then one by the distinguished Indigenous academic, Ngan Sinclair, saying, look, this is really

not on and making the same kind of points that we're hearing right now. You have to have something up high, but if you look at the history of McDonald's, my point would be, I guess I'd say two things. One is you either get rid of all the statues in the country, because trust me, Laurier, for example, is not clean in this area either, or in other ones as well, and a lot of people who came after. And you see in studying McDonald's, if you do have a proper Mention of his negatives as well as positives you understand how far the country has come in positive terms and how far it still has To go. What did you learn in that process? Oh

What a complex guy he was, you know So he had for example very very good indigenous friends who encouraged and things He did do a number of things in the prairies such as ensure vaccination of First Nations people at a time when smallpox was weeping. People will argue that he did, he did, you know, take measures to feed only at half measures, but to feed people during a plague there, although the counterargument is he forced Indigenous people on to reserves where they hadn't been and that starved them. And, you know, we always had this thing of, you know, what a charming guy he was and he wasn't it funny that he swirled a lot of whiskey and then went into the house. We learned the complexities go a lot deeper. He was capable of great kindnesses, including to some

Indigenous people, but you know, there's the points that rock make. We're all looking for great places to visit in Canada. One of my favorites is the Stratford Festival. The theater is truly of the highest caliber and there's so much selection. They have 11 large-scale shows on stage and trust me, whatever is on when you're there will be exceptional. People always think Shakespeare when they think of Stratford, but it's so much more. Broadway musicals, family shows, classic comedy and drama. Whether it's Robert LaPage's Macbeth or Donna Fior's Annie, you will be blown away.

It's the perfect Canadian getaway. To quote William Shatner, who got his start in Stratford, every Canadian should make the pilgrimage to Stratford. Start your next adventure at StratfordFestival.ca. The election may be over, but the next chapter of Canada's political history is just beginning. I'm Jamie Poisson on the Daily News Podcast. Front burner, we are all over this story.

How will first time Prime Minister Mark Carney handle the unprecedented threat of Donald Trump? Was the conservative election loss just a temporary setback? Those are the kind of questions you can turn to us with, plus a whole range of top of mind stories you want to know more about. Follow Frontburner wherever you get your podcasts. What did you learn about our, Canadians' interest in absorbing those complexities? Well, I think, you know, we were, you know, we were hit with, you know, if we're non-Indigenous as me, we were hit with a bucket of water in the face when this stuff first came up. One of our great builders had all these flaws. When you look at the wider sweep and scope of history, as I like to do, nobody

is without these things. The most obvious example is Churchill, who got the good side through World War II and had terrible flaws, including very clear prejudices against countries who fought on their side as well. So, you just learn that history is a complex thing, but you have to make sure you do that. You have to make sure all those aspects are included. Rob, as I mentioned, one of the reasons why this statue has remained behind plywood for the last several years is because of protests in 2020. And that came just before and in and around the discovery of possible unmarked graves in the following year, First Nations across this country.

How do you think, I mean, that was five years ago and I just wonder what's changed in that time, do you think? How have attitudes in this country changed? Well, I think that, you know, it's a mixed bag, right? So in a lot of ways, there's been a lot of movement towards reconciliation, some of it superficial and not very deep and more performative, but there have also been some real strengthening partnerships

in some areas. And right now, I think that the timing of this decision kind of aligns with the kind of shift in public opinion, certainly in North America, towards racialized and minority people. And so, to me, the decision, and sort of unilateral decision to go ahead and uncover it and then say that we'll bring in first Indigenous leadership to discuss how to do it, but the plan seems already to be in place, is really more about the government tipping their toes in the water to see which way the wind is blowing.

Now it seems like a good time as we see a rise in a lot of hate coming throughout the country. So I think that the decision to uncover it now is also kind of telling in terms of the time that we are living in. Anthony, do you see a shift in public opinion around these issues and how, again, it's not a uniform opinion, but broadly how people might in this country think about Canada's history and how to look at Canada's history? Look, I think first of all, I absolutely agree with the suggestion.

I think the government is very much dipping its toe in the water to find out where things are going. It's like that old saying, I think it was Wellington, I must find out where my people are going so I can lead them there. There's some of that aspect, but there's a whole lot of dialogue and I would, I think if done properly with proper mention that the resurrection of the statue in place is part of saying, okay, so let's have the national conversation on this Let's start getting through it. We have gone from the period of kind of shock horror anger

You know raw emotion to a point where these discussions are taking place and I also agree You know like a lot of this is performative even that's a step in itself Although not a big one But then you look at other things taking place if you know the statute alone issue is you know It can't exist as a standalone. It's part of a greater, you know a greater canvas of things So whether this works or not in moving things forward is you know, it's not gonna be the thing that causes that It's gonna be the other events that take place and how people choose to receive it But I go back again to the point that you know

You got to shine a light on history and you got to shine a light on all of history. And McDonald's is the prime unique example of that, the creator of the country and the doer of all these other things. Well, what do you make of that? That you have to shine, history is complicated and that you have to shine a light on the

complexities of history, even if, if there are painful and horrifying parts of it, that's still part of, of, of the history of this country. Yeah, and that's, you know, it's what we try to do in our work, but I would also say the arc of Canada is that, you know, is a willingness to look back and examine bad things that we've done,

other attitudes that we had in other times, and to realize that if you look at pretty much every decade through since, there has been measurable improvement in every area. And I'm gonna include indigenous in that. And you can say that as long as you also say we've got this far. We've made great progress We also at the same time then should acknowledge we've got a lot You know, we've got a good long ways to go and I go back to an argument Margaret McMillan the great historian I just read recently where she was saying, you know

We shouldn't look at history in terms of judgment of just, you know, you were good, you were bad You were innocent you were guilty But rather is something which helps us to understand how we got to the place where we are today as a country and that again Means good and bad Rob. What do you make of that? Well, I agreed and and this has been the the issue with the commemorations and the critique about it is that they've erased all the history. They are a good chunk of the history. And so certainly, you know, history is about figuring out and understanding how we got to where we are today.

And without the full story, then we won't know, we won't understand, and people will just assume that indigenous peoples' social and economic conditions today is because of them and not because of anything anyone else did. And so, I think that the issue, the statute issue is good in terms of it does raise the questions and brings conversations about, you know, more complexity and brings more complexity into the conversation. And I think that that is the good, that is good. And, but, you know, Indigenous people have to be a part of the discussions all the way through, not halfway through. After, you know, decisions are made, come in now, let's see how we can do this.

There should be more of a discussion, more of an interaction between indigenous peoples and the decision makers who are making these decisions. It's interesting, the late Marie Sinclair, who is chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, was interviewed about the issue of how to remember Sir John A. Macdonald in 2017 on As It Happens. And at the time, an Ontario teachers union wanted Macdonald's name removed from school buildings. Have a listen to what Marie Sinclair said. That's not what reconciliation is all about. Reconciliation is really about trying to find a balance in telling the history of this country. And the history of this country is that he was a person who did great wrong. He was also a person who did some things, those things that were necessary for this country to be established as it is today.

established as it is today. And whether we like it or not, that's part of Canadian reality and there are many Canadians who want to commemorate that. But there are a lot of indigenous people who have made a positive contribution to this country who have largely been ignored and who deserve to be honoured and commemorated just as much and we should be talking about what to do about them. Rob Innes, what have you heard, you hinted at this, what have you heard from people in indigenous communities about what it means to them if a road is renamed or a statue is removed?

In part because you were saying at the beginning of our conversation that there's still much ground to be made up when it comes to the issue of truth and reconciliation. Right, and I think that in some cities across the country, I know Saskatoon, for example, they've done a lot of work in terms of renaming streets, buildings, bridges, schools after First Nations and Métis people. And this brings Indigenous people into, you know, into contemporary urban life in these cities in a way that isn't ignoring them, isn't erasing them. But it's hit and miss across the country, and some places do a better job than others, and so there's a lot of work to do there. But these are somewhat superficial, but also meaningful.

It's similar with land acknowledgments. They're meaningful, although they're very performative as well. So I think bringing Indigenous people from out of the shadows into the light within mainstream Canada is a step in the right direction. We're just about out of time. Let me just ask you both quickly, and I'll start with you, Tony. We're in this moment, as you know,

where elbow is up, Canadian flag, people rallying around that flag, this moment of what it means to be Canadian and what our national identity means. How do you think the conversation we're having now connects with that moment? Well, I think on a pan-Canadian scale, I'm going to use a Maurice Sinclair quote, another one that's absolutely wonderful, where he was actually talking directly about Indigenous people though, and he said, you know, people often say to me, why can't you just forget

about all these ills and things? And I say to me, why can't you just forget about all these else and things? And I say to them, why can't you remember? And so that involves the remembering of everything again, you know, the issues that Rob is raising, also McDonald's nation building, the fact we are where we are today, warts, flaws, blemishes, and all the great virtues and strengths that we have, they're all of a package, you know, and you can't get around them. Rob, last minute to you. How does,

how does this conversation that we're having connect with this moment of national identity? Well, I think in terms of national identity, I think that it is important that we are presented with a full picture of our history. And as he said, the good and the bad, As he said, the good and the bad, and that helps to explain how we got to where we are today. I'm glad to have you both here to talk about this. It's not just this one statue in Ontario that is the subject of these discussions, and it

feels like those discussions will continue right across the country. Thank you both for being here. Thank you, in turn. Thank you. Rob Innes is chair of Indigenous Studies at McMaster University, also a member of the Callis's First Nation. Anthony Wilson-Smith is the president and CEO

of Historica Canada. You've been listening to The Current Podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.