The Current - Why a B.C. ostrich farm – and high-profile supporters – are pushing back against cull order

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

The fight to save 400 ostriches from being culled at a B.C. farm where avian flu was detected late last year has attracted international attention — including from some big name supporters, including Dr. Oz and U.S. Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. A member of the family that’s owned the ostrich farm for 30 years tells Matt Galloway about why they have fought the cull order, while an immunology expert explains the risk the birds pose to public health.

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Available now. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. In the tiny town of Edgewood, B.C., 570 km east of Vancouver, a fight to save 400 ostriches has gone global. Last December, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency received a tip that at Universal Ostrich Farms, some of the birds had fallen ill and died. Tests conducted by the agency found the presence of avian flu, and the agency issued an order to cull the farm's birds. But the family that has operated the farm for more than 30 years has defied that agency's orders, launching a campaign to save the birds. And that has attracted

dozens of supporters who have camped outside the property to prevent inspectors from entering. It's also attracted international attention. Among the farm supporters are celebrity Dr. Oz and US Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Katie Pesitny's mother owns Universal Ostrich Farms. Katie, good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having us on this morning. Thank you for being here. On Friday, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency released a statement saying they have imposed fines totaling $20,000 on your farm for failure to report the illness and adhere to quarantine orders. Why are you continuing to order, ignore the orders from the

Canadian Food Inspection Agency? Right. So that was a complete misinformation that they released on Friday. We've been developing a response to that actually, just through the whole weekend. We released some of that yesterday. We have another release today. We did not, like for the reporting of Avian Influenza, we absolutely did the proper protocols. We phoned our vet. They were aware of that. That was in our tribunal record. So there's a lot of misinformation.

We don't continue to defy the quarantine. We are upholding all of our measures as best as possible and have done so since day one. And actually prior to them even being involved, we have them. But you are preventing, I mean, your supporters are preventing the Canadian Food Inspection Agency inspectors from entering the farm, right, and from carrying out this call. That is something that you are saying can't happen.

Yeah, no, we aren't actually preventing them from coming in. We have supporters here that are all around us and they're trying to give us love and support and show everybody that can come together at a time like this, but at no time have they stepped in the way of Canadian Food Inspection Agency when they've been present. The CFIA says that these ostriches on your farm have tested positive for avian influenza, H5N1, and that they need to be culled because if they are allowed to survive, that could mean there's a risk of this virus mutating and spreading to humans. They're in the open,

they are exposed to perhaps other wild birds. What would you say to people who are worried about this risk? It was on their own website, Canadian Food Inspection Agency's website. They shed for seven, the virus when they're sick, they shed the virus for about seven to fourteen days. We are at day 139 of healthy, beautiful, prehistoric flightless animals that have herd immunity

and herd immunity is a real thing. That's natural immunity. We all survive with it and they are not contagious. We want the opportunity to test these animals, to prove to everybody that they are healthy and we are being met with resistance. What is the scientific evidence that you've presented to support? Because you've asked the court for an exemption saying that, to your point, the birds have scientific value.

What is the evidence that you've presented that there is any scientific value to this? Yeah, we've went through, we had a five and a half hour Zoom call with them that resulted in us giving them all of our research papers, our business plan and model, working with Dr. Tsukamoto out of Kyoto University in Japan. We were working with another clinic immune biosolutions out of Quebec and that had a whole bunch of studies done showing even that our ostrich antibodies have the ability to neutralize the COVID-19 variant. All of this material was given to Canadian Food Inspection Agency at the beginning, that would have been our January 2nd, they had received all this information.

The CFII says it has not received any evidence of scientific research being done at the infected premises. And a federal court judge ruled that the agency's decisions were in its words, both reasonable and fair. What does that tell you? Yeah, it's pretty disappointing on our side that is misinformation, it is not accurate on our side that is misinformation. It is not accurate.

And that is what we've spent the last weekend and last night providing, creating a document to show the public, like the public, the court, the courts of the public opinion, basically, if we're going to get this stuff not seen in or heard in court and not represented properly by our own court system, then I think it's really important that the public sees the most accurate answers because that is not true. We don't supply that information. The CFIA has said that in not, I just want to go back to that issue though, in not culling these birds, there is a risk that bird flu could spread, that other birds could pick

this up and spread it around and that it's in the public good to have these birds culled. You're not a scientist, I'm not a scientist, but what do you believe you know that they don't know? but what do you believe you know that they don't know? Well, as long as there's migratory birds in the world, there's nowhere in the world that's going to be avian influenza free. And so, all I know is by killing each and every one of our farmers' livestock,

we are not solving the problem. It's we are risking losing our genetic diversity. We are risking losing our genetic diversity. We are risking losing our special rare genetics that we all breed for, for health and speed and everything that all of our different species are bred for. We are risking losing natural immunity. So as long as there's migratory birds in the world, nowhere is going to be avian influenza free. So eradicating all of our farmers is not going to be the solution. It's going to just create massive catastrophic failure in humanity in the near future.

You have said, these are your words, we are not opposed to public health measures, but we are deeply concerned that the current approach lacks transparency, scientific rigor and compassion. Is this about the ostriches or is it about something beyond this? Is it about government officials telling you what you can and can't do on the farm? Yeah, I would have, I think it would be both.

I think there's been a lack of transparency. I mean, there's been a lack of transparency. I mean, there's been a lack of compassion. There's... We wanted to work with Canadian Food Inspection Agency from day one. And we said that we have the potential to bring something forward that could help stabilize a growing crisis. We were running off two controversial PCR tests off two deceased animals. There was a resistance and absolutely unwillingness to test any of our healthy animals. We're kind of going into this, you know, how can you,

There's, we're kind of going into this, you know, how can you, you look at these farmers and we're killing all of their survivors of any animal that has had a disease or had a virus. How we need more, we need more willingness to work with our farmers because we're losing our farmers right now. Our farmers are getting tired and they're giving up and culling and repopulating is not an easy job for the farmer. It's a very expensive job on the taxpayers, just all of the CO2 and the stamping out procedures. It's, yeah, I just, it's been a very, yeah, it's been a very emotional five months, but watching it and seeing that it's unnecessary,

that we have something here, we have a herd that has a recovered flock, and they're not willing to test the animals. I don't know what they're, like, why won't they test our animals? What do you make of the support that's come not just from people in Canada, but I mentioned, you know, RFK Jr., the US Health Secretary, Dr. Oz has said, send the birds down to his ranch in Florida. Will you do that? Yeah, yeah, it's powerful and deeply affirming, that's for sure.

Being heard beyond borders, it's validation that our cause matters to us and to all, that it matters not just to us, but to the whole, you know, across the borders. So it's been humbling. Yes, absolutely. If the only way is to save these animals and save the research with the potential that they could provide for human and animal health. Absolutely. Then Dr. Oz was so kind to offer his 900 acre ranch in Florida to try to step in the middle and stop what we're missing. Just very briefly, before I let you go,

what would you say just finally to people who are worried that these public health orders are designed to protect public health? And by you defying them and by your supporters saying that they are not going to allow this call to happen, you're putting the larger public at risk. Yeah, what I would say is please just request, allow us to test our animals. It is a human right and it shouldn't be a crime. Canadian Food Inspection Agency

is withholding and misleading information. All we're asking is, ask Canadian Food Inspection Agency to test our animals. That's all because I promise you, with all of our research and all of our scientific data that we have sitting in front of us, around us, we are just asking for the opportunity to prove to the world that we are not a public health threat. Katie, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Katie Pasitini's mother owns Universal Ostrich Farms. She was in Edgewood, British Columbia. Is drinking raw milk safe? Like RFK Jr. suggests? Can you reduce a glucose spike if you eat your food in quote unquote, the right order? I'm registered dietitian, Abby Sharp. I host a nutrition myth busting podcast called Bite Back with Abby Sharp. And those are just some of the questions I tackle with qualified experts on my show.

On Bite Back, my goal is to help listeners create a pleasurable relationship with food, their body, and themselves, which in my opinion is the fundamental secret to good health. Listen to Bite Back wherever you get your podcasts. Cheyenne Sharif is a professor of immunology at the Ontario Veterinary College at the University of Guelph. He has been following this story closely.

Cheyenne, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt. Do you believe these ostriches should be culled? First and foremost, I have to say that my heart really goes out to Katie and the rest of her family. I can only imagine, you know, how hard this must have been over the last four or five months or so, and I can only imagine the amount of emotional stress that this would have had on the family. So that's the emotional side of things. But from the scientific point of view, I would have actually imagined that the ostriches would have been called in January, December, January, when the infection was first diagnosed.

That's basically the protocol that CFIA and perhaps many other countries globally would follow. So that does actually raise some questions in my mind as to why the calling did not happen in January. But do you believe, given the fact that there was avian influenza detected in this flock, that regardless of the timeline, the birds need to be destroyed?

Yes, because you know that like I said that's the CFIA protocol that would need to be followed irrespective of you know whether or not you know if you're looking at dogs, geese, turkeys, chickens or ostriches in this case. And let me also clarify that the order to call is not just because of biology of the virus and whether or not the virus is still present or it has it's been cleared from those ostriches. It also has to do with international trade and keeping animals that have been tested positive would actually still create international trade barriers for Canada and for the province of British Columbia. So as a result of that, we need to also look at not only biological aspects of the order,

but we also need to look at some of the consequences of not following through with that order in terms of the impact on exports from Canada. What are the public health consequences of not culling these birds? So there are a couple of issues here. Issue number one that Katie was talking about, which I think is correct to some extent, is whether or not those animals still have the virus. The reality is that influenza viruses usually get cleared within a few days, sometimes up to three weeks, four weeks experimentally. So it's quite possible

that the birds have already cleared the virus. But the issue is that if they do have some immunity left in them, and this is also something that I can come back to in the next few minutes or so, the issue is that if they have some immunity, that immunity can mask infection. So they may actually become repeatedly infected with the virus and they can still shed the virus in the environment without anyone Noticing because they have some level of immunity that would protect them from showing clinical signs of disease So they become like a silent spreader of the virus And if you can remember, you know from kovat 19 era we had the same issue that sometimes, you know

People would have some level of immunity, they catch the virus, they don't show clinical signs of the virus, but they shed the virus and they can become some sort of a super spreader. So that's also a concern. She had called for the CFA to test these animals, to allow them on the farm or either inspectors to come in or for allow them to do their own testing of the animals.

What would that reveal reveal do you think? Well it could actually reveal that they're infected or it could reveal that they're not infected. And I think that wouldn't really address the bigger problem which is the requirements for zoning arrangement and for quarantine because we have not been able to show conclusively to our international trade partners that that area, that zone is clear and it's disease free.

And I think that's really a big concern to me as a scientist in this area and as someone who has worked with the poultry industry for the last 25 years. I mean, we have talked a lot about avian influenza on this program. What makes this version of avian influenza different from the ones we've seen in other years? Because there's concern about this strain in particular. It's been absolutely unprecedented

because three years ago, over three years ago, when it first happened, many of the experts in the area would have thought that the virus would just fade away within a matter of months or perhaps a year or so but it has come back again and again and again and it has crisscrossed our country many times over at least four or five times over so that's that's that's one aspect of it the other aspect of this virus is that it has shown to be highly transmissible. It's pathogenic, meaning that it causes severe disease in birds and to some extent in mammals. And also, it's highly transmissible.

It has actually infected dozens and dozens of avian species and dozens of mammalian species, something that we haven't actually seen before. We had some ideas that, as an example, dairy cattle can become infected experimentally, but we had no idea that they can actually become infected naturally. And this virus has proven us wrong many times. You mentioned immunity. What do you make of the claim by the US Health and Human Services Secretary, RFK Jr., and others that there's value in keeping these birds alive for herd immunity. He has also said in past that farmers should allow avian flu to run through their flocks, in his words, to preserve birds that are immune to it.

What do you make of that? That is really my own area of expertise, immunology. I can provide you with a few remarks here. Number one is that herd immunity does actually exist, generally speaking. We don't exactly know to what extent it exists in this particular case, but it does exist. However, generally speaking, in the context of influenza viruses, herd immunity is not a long-term immunity. it fades away within a matter of months. In chickens, for example, that we've looked at, it usually lasts for maybe three to six months, and then it just fades away.

So that's number one. Number two, is this something that we should be doing as a routine practice to let avian influenza just go through a flock or a herd and then hope for best? No, because generally speaking for avian influenza viruses, specifically highly pathogenic ones, they can kill almost 80 to 100% of animals. So if we have any concerns about animal welfare, we would not be letting avian influenza virus going through the herd or a flock because it can cause significant mortality, especially in avian species, like for example in turkeys, in chickens, it can cause up to 100% mortality in ducks and geese.

It's a little bit lower, but it's still quite lethal. We're out of time, but let me just ask you very briefly the question that I asked Katie, which is what is this about, do you think? Is it about the ostriches, is it about something else? That's very hard to tell. From my point of view, I'm only looking at ostriches, their value for our science and determining

whether or not they are valuable. The reality is that some work has already been done in South Africa and there's tons of work done on migratory birds, showing that migratory birds can actually become reinfected with the virus. So the level of herd immunity is going to be negligible. And as a result of that, the value of ostriches for scientific purposes, in my view, would be rather limited.

Do you think that the CFIA needs to learn something from what we're seeing in this case? 100% agree. I think CFIA also needs to learn something from this. If there is any provision for flexibility in the future with respect to testing and calling, I think this is a good test case. Probably also this is a good case for thinking about vaccination of birds that are of high value. Shayan Sharif, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

You've been listening to The Current Podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon.