The Current - Why can’t the Canadian military recruit enough women?

Episode Date: September 12, 2025

The military is off its target to have women represent 25% of the armed forces by 2026. We  speak to a new recruit who joined the Air Force earlier this year about her experiences as well as Charlotte Duval Lantoine from the Canadian Global Affairs Institute about why women might be cautious about joining up.

Hugh is a rock climber, a white supremacist, a Jewish neo-Nazi, a spam king, a crypto-billionaire, and then someone killed him. It is truly a mystery. It is truly a case of who done it. Dirtbag Climber, the story of the murder and the many lives of Jesse James. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. I don't mean to alarm you, but we're just a few months away from 2026, and that is when

the Canadian military promised that women would make up 25% of its forces. It will not meet that target. Currently, women make up under 17% of regular and reserve roles in the military. Overall, though, recruitment into Canada's armed forces is at a 10-year high. So why is there still an issue in getting women to join? Well, in a moment, we will look at some of the systemic barriers that might be preventing women from joining. But first, I'm joined by Julie Henrickson. She joined the Air Force earlier this year, works with its logistics training center at its base in Borden, Ontario.

Julie, good morning. Good morning, Matt. Thanks for being here. Why did you want to join the Air Force? Sorry, a bit nervous. I wanted to join because I knew people who were in the California. and they gave very glowing reviews about the benefits it could provide, that you would have a stable career for a very long time.

And honestly, I wanted to do something that felt like it was making more of a difference. Did you have any family history with joining people in the armed forces? Or this was just something that you, on your own thought, you know what? This is, I could do. My grandfather was in the Air Force as well, but that didn't go into my decision to join. Okay. You started your basic training, what, in February? Yes.

How did that go? What was basic training like? It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. It was very difficult. And, well, we're in platoons of 60 people in different groups. And I was the smallest in my entire platoon. So it was intimidating.

And I wanted to quit. Often, but I did it anyways and came out successful, but it was difficult. What made you want to quit? Well, you're isolated from your family, obviously. You're physically challenged, you're very tired. They want to test you. They want to make sure that you can handle pressure and still perform. So it was a unique situation that nothing before it I could compare to.

And you didn't quit. I mean, you felt that you could stay. Why did you decide that you weren't going to walk away? That would be the easy thing to do, right? I think ultimately I wanted to prove something to myself that I could withstand the pressure and do it. Can I ask you about just what it's like to be a woman in the armed forces these days? I mean, we've talked a lot on the program about the culture of the military in this country. In your experience, what is that culture like for a woman in the forces right now?

I did feel intimidated, as I said, but it wasn't because I felt I was alone. as a female in the military. Ultimately, there were more men than there were women in my staff as well as in my platoon. But it really did feel like a very comfortable environment as far as everyone I interacted with. But it would be nice to see more female representation. I mean, one of the reasons why that question matters in the context of the conversation we're having is because there have been a number of stories of sexual misconduct within the forces, studies that talk about the sexism that women face, a culture that people have said is riddled with misogyny

and with misconduct. Did you think about those things, those stories even, when you thought about signing up? They were things I knew about and had heard. but from people I knew who were in the forces, they did reassure me that in recent years, the military has gone through a lot of changes and that that culture has taken a significant turn. Do you mind me asking you said that it weighed on you? Do you mind me just asking a bit more about that? I mean, what did you see?

What were you thinking about when it came to those stories? That I didn't want to have a situation similar to those. But I didn't feel all that concerned because I knew that the military was making a lot of changes. There was, I'm getting this right, there was an instance of sexual misconduct during your basic training, right? Yes, there was. I don't have all the details on that situation. I do know that the staff, they did address it very swiftly. And it was handled very seriously.

Part of that was that the rest of us were not given all the information on how it was handled. But I know that they took witnesses. And they handled it very seriously with professionalism and care. They tried to balance being transparent with discretion. I don't have all the information, but it did not feel like it was being pushed under a rug or ignored in any facet. Knowing that something like that happened, and I appreciate you talking about how it was addressed

and addressed in an intentional and swift way. What was that like? How did that make you feel knowing that that was happening? Honestly, I was very surprised. Because personally, from all the men who were in my platoon, I felt nothing but support and help throughout the whole experience. So it did come as a surprise because personally, I had never felt uncomfortable around any of my peers in that process. Why do you think the military is having trouble recruiting women? We said that there's this goal of 25% by, by,

next year, 2026, and the military is not going to make that mark. Why do you think that is? I did feel intimidated before I joined. It feels like something that is very daunting physically, and you're making a very big commitment to your country. I'm not, I can't speak for all of women, but I think that there are some misconceptions potentially. For example, I think not everyone knows that there are so many trade options available that the career you choose does not have to be a combat trade. The military runs much like a town.

It needs everything a town would need in order to get by. It needs medical. It needs teachers. It needs cooks. It needs everything that a town would need. And as much as they need, combat trades. They need support trades as well to keep that machine running. So I think people don't have a full idea of what a career in the military might look like, what your day to day might look like, because there are many options. And I didn't know about those in depth before I joined either. What do you think that the Canadian Armed Forces could do to make sure that women like yourself feel welcome in the military, but also that they stay. I mean, there's a retention issue here as well. And so you don't want to just bring people in and then have them leave.

What is it that the military could do to make sure that you and other women like yourself feel that this is a place for you? I think they're attempting to make those changes already. I, of course, I'm not privy to all the details of that process, but I know that they are working on exposure. They're trying to implement more female leadership and interaction with people to teach them about the Canadian Armed Forces. But it's, it is tough because it's a bit of a chicken and the egg situation until there are more females in the forces. It's, it's a bit hard to, I don't know. To change the environment in some ways.

Yeah, you need to change the environment. And I know that is in process, though. I work with many females. I don't feel outnumbered, and I don't feel, I don't feel like I'm viewed any differently for being a female. I've been given many great opportunities. And I'm already in a mentoring position. That's right.

while I wait for my course as well. So far, I've enjoyed personally, my journey. I'm enjoying the work I do. But I can't really speak as a whole. I am just in my first year, so it's hard for me to answer that. Let me just ask you finally, before I let you go. I mean, if you could offer one piece of advice to other young women who are thinking about enlisting,

but maybe they have the concerns that you've articulated and maybe they've read the stories that we've been talking about about the culture and what have you. What would you say to them? What's that one piece of advice you would give them? I would tell them to reach out, whether that's at a recruitment center or by delving online or looking at the Canadian Forces websites,

you're going to find a lot of information that will open your eyes about the experience so just go out there because there is information that you can get that will tell you a lot. Julie, I wish you the best of luck, and I'm really glad to have the chance to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Julie Henriksen is a new recruit into the Canadian Air Force. She was at the military's base in Borden, Ontario. There are two kinds of Canadians, those who feel something when they hear this music. And those who've been missing out so far, I'm Chris Howden. And I'm Neil Kuxel. We are the co-hosts of As It Happens, and every day we speak with people at the center of the day's most hard-hitting, heartbreaking, and sometimes hilarious news stories. Also, we have puns. Here Why As It Happens is one of Canada's longest running in most beloved shows.

You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. Charlotte Duval Antoine is a fellow at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute, writes about military culture in Canada, and has been listening. And Charlotte, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt. Let's go back to the goal. I want to just get your thoughts on what you just heard, but there's this goal. The military decided on this goal of 25% female representation by next year.

It's not going to make that mark. But why did the military decide on that number, do you think? It is a complex story behind that number. And the story actually represents is emblematic of how the lack of transparency in the military sometimes as an external researcher. But it comes from the idea that if you reach a certain number of representation, you will be able to change the culture in meaningful ways. So as Julia said right before when you were talking, it's a chicken or the egg kind of situation. There's a believe that just increasing the number will improve the status. And the military gave itself

10 years to reach that 25% goal. And we're falling very short of it. But then we need to interrogate, is it the right approach? Because they are societal barriers that Jolia talked about and I think we should talk about that might prevent the military from reaching that goal. But There are also things that the military should do in order to improve. But then is it a question of representation or is it a question of improving their lives of women in the military? Those are all big questions. As you understand, what's the military been doing to attract women since it announced that goal? So they have been targeting targeted campaigns and the military had put in place programs where it would give women a day.

It's a program like for a day where the military will kind of show women what it's like to be in the military for a day. It's a it's an outreach program. They were women FAQs posted throughout the decade. But that was also during the time that Operation Honor, the now defunct effort to eliminate sexual misconduct was underway. And there was a lot of communication about this. So externally, like to try and recruit women, that was happening. Operation Honor also served to try and show women from the inside that there was an effort to change the culture. But that remains on my view surface level. There were also leadership champions for women. At the time, it was Rebecca Patterson, who is a rear admiral and now senator.

So there were efforts like this, whether or not it was sufficient, well, the proof is into putting. It's not bad initiatives. I think that the champions, the women advisory organizations, those need to stay, but it is falling a little bit short of what needed to happen. You've used the word culture a few times, and we used it as well in the conversation that we just had with Julie. How would you describe the culture in 2025? in the military, particularly when it comes to women. So the way that I like to describe it is what we're talking about is the gendered aspect of military culture.

I think that it's going to impact everyone differently. And that was kind of the point that I made in my book when I was looking at women's integration throughout the 1990s is there is still in the military a view. of who the perfect soldier needs to be, what they look like, and also what can the labor they do to be valued. That leads to all forms of misconduct, one of which is a sexual misconduct because there's still a culture of violence as a way of correcting behavior and of correct. the person. But we've seen that in what happened over the past few months in the army with racialized

and anti-Semitic and extremism violence in the Canadian Army. All of those are within the same spectrum. It's just that women and racialized and queer minority, queer groups within the military are more likely to be impacted. but men are also victims of that because of the fact that of the sheer number men still dominate the military

Is your sense that this has been I mean we've talked about this on the program it seems like for years the culture but also the efforts to try to change the culture is your sense that the military is doing enough to tackle this it's been

in the Canadian side gas for at least a decade now, but I'm studying those issue from 30 years ago, right? I think, and I've written about this recently, I think that the military, and it's actually the topic of my PhD dissertation, I think that the military is still very stuck on the bad apple mindset on those issues. Rather than what? Rather than looking at how the structures within the military might be enforcing that violence. And it's not just about the values like some scholars write about about the fact that the military reinforces a certain way of being that is male, that is white, that is Anglo-Saxon, but it is also how the structure reinforce this.

Who gets punished? What kind of misconduct gets punished and what kind of punishment do people face is also a very important part of all of that? what is the threshold to receive administrative and disciplinary action for your for your behavior what kind of behavior gets accepted what kind of behavior and and what is the balance you know we've seen that in the hockey Canada cases where does misconduct become more important than than performance and and I've heard a lot of the time people tell me, well, Charlotte, if I have a surgeon, I care that he's a good surgeon, not that he is a good person. But sometimes in an environment where you work with other people, the fact that your good surgeon is also a good person is important, because if they make mistake, people might not be able to speak out of fear of this person.

So those are very important dynamics that we need to take into account if we want to change the culture, and how does the system within it encourage this person to not only be a good performer, but also encourage a good environment within the military and how does that structure shape the behavior of its members? So step back then to the question of this number of 25% by 2026. Given everything that you've said, what would make the military more appealing for women so that they see this as an environment that they will be welcomed in, that they can thrive in,

that they will be comfortable in, that they're going to be safe in? What would make that change, do you think? Well, this is where society comes in, actually. And this is a complicated thing. I think that the military needs to change a lot of things in terms of incentivization of behavior. But also, if I can just say that women still do not have flag jackets that fit them.

I heard about that. there are practical things, like uniforms simply don't fit women. Yeah, and how do you feel included when your safety is on the line for basic equipment? So there's that piece. But you're seeing as an afterthought in some ways. Yeah, I mean, women have been allowed to join the combat trade in 1989, Matt. And the fact that we're still asking for this, that it is now consideration is a problem. And that we're still not there.

And women have been joining the military since the Northwestern rebellion. It's been centuries that we still haven't taken into account women's bodies and their ability as valuable to the military and as worth of safety and as providing unique skills. And I want to go back to something that Julia said earlier. this idea that like women are not necessarily, do not necessarily need to go into combat roles. That is true. That is true. There are over 100 occupations within the Canadian military. And actually, women are concentrated in about half of those occupations, all of them are which are administrative. But we need to ask ourselves, why is it that we think that women, are not made for combat roles?

What is it that we think that they're physically not up to the task? And I think that comes into society as well where women do not work out, do not start weight training as early as their male counterparts do. Women are constantly treated as weaker. I have a colleague of mine that is joining the military.

She wants to be an infantry officer. And she is constantly questioned as to why she wants to do this and whether she is physically capable of doing so. And when you face already women are being seen societally as like having to constantly justify their value to the rest of society. But then you increase the stake when you join the military. I've been eight years in defense as a civilian as a researcher. And I still face people discouraging me to continue the work that I'm doing because it is not in line with what they view of me, of my femininity. And that is a problem when you have both an organization that appears to not be welcome. And in certain cases, I'm very happy to hear that Julia is having a good experience, but it is not universal for all women.

and then your like society does not support them either and then it is an isolating experience for a lot of them. We just have, we're just out about it at a time, but in some ways that speaks to a question that you hinted it earlier, which is, is this about the how or is it about the why in terms of why we're trying to get to this number? How do you see that? Just very briefly, how do you see that? My view is that I was always skeptical about.

at that number. I would, I understand that the military is a male-dominated environment and getting women in through the door is going to take a lot of work. And it is a work that society needs to work with the military on. But also, how about we accept that maybe women right now, culturally and society are not interested in joining, then what's the next step? And for me, the most important thing is that I want every single member of the military, regardless of their gender and in racial and sexual orientation background, I want them to thrive in the military and what is needed for them to thrive. I would be way more interested in that conversation and looking at all the systemic factor.

Than trying to hit a number. Exactly, exactly, especially that it creates resentment, right? We're seeing that in the United States, and we've seen that in Canada, that there is a resentment if we try to reach certain numbers because people feel that it's a discrimination against other people, which is a perception that it's probably not true, but it's nonetheless real to them. So that creates more risk for discrimination, and you end up in a vicious cycle. Charlotte, I'm really glad to talk to you about this. Thank you for taking time to come into our studio.

Thank you for your thoughtful questions. It was a pleasure. Charlotte Duval Antoine is a fellow at the Canadian Global Affairs Institute in our Ottawa studio. We did request an interview with the Canadian Armed Forces about their efforts to meet this goal of 25% female enrollment by 2026, but they declined. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon.

For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.