The Current - Why Pope Francis was ‘a shepherd who smells like the sheep’

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

Pope Francis worked to be close to people right up to the final day of his life, says Jesuit priest and journalist Father Sam Sawyer. We look at how that focus on human dignity has shaped his papacy, from speaking out for refugees and the marginalized, to his apology for the Church's role in residential schools.

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This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. It was a remarkable ending to his 12 year papacy. Though he had been extremely sick, Pope Francis spent his final day in St. Peter's Square waving and blessing the crowds. I think it's just wonderful that he was able to complete Holy Week to celebrate Easter, the resurrection of the Lord with the people of Rome, coming out and being there with them, blessing them. This is the way a pastor wants to go after giving

his all to his flock. Father Tom Reese, with the National Catholic Reporter, believes Pope Francis will be remembered for his love and compassion. Known as the People's Pope, Pope Francis was the first pontiff from the Americas. He ushered in a more welcoming, inclusive Catholic Church and in his final address called for peace and mercy for migrants. Cardinals have announced today that his funeral will be held on Saturday. Father Sam Sawyer is a Jesuit priest and editor-in-chief of the Catholic publication America magazine. Father Sawyer, good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here. What was your reaction when you

heard of the Pope's death, especially as I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, so soon after he made that final Easter Sunday appearance? You know, I was of course surprised and saddened, as I think Catholics and other people all over the world were, but I just heard the bit from Tom Reese, one of my Jesuit brothers, and I think Tom was exactly right that this is how Pope Francis would have wanted to go. So having blessed people on Easter Sunday in the square and then going quickly without another return trip to the hospital, but really being there pastorally with people at the last moment. So I hoped we would have him for much longer. You know, we thought he was getting better rather than worse after he got out of the hospital. But this is absolutely how he would have wanted to go to God.

You met him in 2022 and you wrote, the most surprising thing about meeting Pope Francis is how normal it feels. Can you tell me about that? What was normal about that? Sure. So I was with a team of my colleagues from America Magazine, blessed to have the chance to interview him. And he, so he invited us into his residence at Santa Marta. my colleagues from America Magazine, blessed to have the chance to interview him.

So he invited us into his residence at Santa Marta and we met him in a first floor, just sort of parlor living room space there, nothing terribly fancy about the space. And we were setting up our audio recording equipment for the interview and somebody tapped me on the shoulder as I was working on the audio equipment and said, oh, the Pope's here. He had just walked into the room without any fanfare, without staff to announce him, without any handlers or anything. And then he just sat and talked with us

for about an hour and a half. And so that's what I mean. It just felt normal. It felt conversational. I mean, significant of course, because you're sitting with the Pope, but he didn't stand on ceremony or formality. How do you think, I mean, you mentioned of course, because you're sitting with the pope, but he didn't stand on ceremony or formality. How do you think, I mean, you mentioned that you're both Jesuits and people have made a

lot of his humility. How do you think that background, that Jesuit background influenced who he became as pope? So I think there are two big answers to that that I've been thinking about over the last day and a half or so. One is that the fundamental Jesuit mission and identity is as men available and ready to be sent, to be sent anywhere where needed, and especially to be sent where the need is greatest. And so I think his attention to the peripheries, to people on the margin, to people who are

vulnerable comes out of that Jesuit impulse towards mission and availability. Send us to the place where the need is the greatest. I think you saw that in him all over the place. But the other thing I think is, you know, we Jesuits, our leadership inside the Jesuits doesn't stand very far apart from us. It's very relational, very conversational. Our superiors are appointed superiors and then go back to being regular, normal Jesuits.

And so I think his humility and that kind of more informal style he was able to take with the papacy, that visible humility of being close to people, I think that also reflects some of the characteristics of Jesuit leadership as well. How did you see that play out in the causes that he championed? I mean, so much attention was paid to the work that he did

in elevating the attention that was paid to the climate crisis, in going to Lampedusa, in many ways the center of the refugee crisis, and washing the feet of a Muslim refugee, in talking about LGBTQ rights when he was asked about members of the clergy who might be gay and he said, who am I to judge? How did what you were talking about in terms of him being a Jesuit influence those causes that he took on?

So I think again, you know, we Jesuits, we talk about our mission as being at the service of the faith that does justice. I think that inspiration to link the service of faith with advocacy for justice and with concern for people who are being marginalized and oppressed, that's characteristic of Jesuit mission. But also, the reality for Pope Francis was that he has in his own family's living memory, they were migrants from Italy to Argentina. And so I think we also just saw in his attention, especially to the needs and the plights of migrants, somebody who had that experience sort of more directly accessible to him and was

always in Argentina as Archbishop of Buenos Aires, you know, was with people who were in the slums, was with people who were poor and marginalized, and that's sort of always where his heart was. And in fact in La Dato Si, you know, as much as it's celebrated and justly so for being an encyclical that really took the science of climate change seriously. The other thing Francis kept reminding us in the Dato Si was that the burdens of climate change are going to fall hardest on those who are already most vulnerable.

And so those concerns were linked for him. Many of those things infuriated very conservative members of the church. What did they see as being wrong with his approach? What were they concerned about? I mean, I think people were concerned that Francis was, the words I often heard were unclear or confusing, that his, when he, when he spoke about a broader range of the Church's teaching and when he emphasized parts of Catholic social teaching with great fervor and as equally a part of the tradition, I think that was sort of a change in tenor from the way some Catholics had gotten used to the Church speaking mostly in moral absolutes.

And Francis was calling us into situations that were a little less clear-cut, where there was more need for prudence and adaptability, but where the church's mission, I think, is equally vital and equally important. But he was very direct in this. I mean, whether it's criticizing US immigration policy and the deportations, one of his final meetings was with the US Vice President, JD Vance. And there's talk that initially he didn't meet with JD Vance, the vice president, but sent somebody to speak very directly about this and about what was going on in the United States.

He had talked about how American conservatives were replacing faith with ideology. That's a very public rebuke in many ways of what's going on in some parts of this world. Yeah, and he also, you know, he sent about a month ago an open letter to the US bishops about migration and the plight of the way we were talking about immigrants in the US that was very direct and a pretty surprising intervention by a pope. I mean, and I think the reality is that's it's a it's a crisis of human dignity the way immigrants are being treated particularly in the United States right now and Pope Francis is giving clear witness to the human the equal human dignity of all people whatever their country of origin and he's Speaking prophetically he spoke prophetically to make that clear. Where does that leave the church now? It has been said in the New York Times and elsewhere

that he faced disruption, disrespect, and demonization by a well-organized, well-funded block of conservatively-minded Catholics. Where does that leave the church now as it looks for its next pope? I mean, I think this will sound pious, but I mean it honestly. It leaves the church in the hands of the Holy Spirit.

Nobody expected a Jesuit pope to be elected 12 years ago. Certainly nobody expected that Cardinal Bergoglio, when he became Pope Francis, would be the kind of pope that he was. He was a surprise to all of us. And I suspect that whoever the next pope is will also be a surprise to all of us in And I suspect that whoever the next pope is will also be a surprise to all of us in some way that we can't foresee right now. Down here on Earth, though, do you

expect a power struggle in some ways between those various, I'm not saying factions, but certainly arms of the church? I expect that there will be, I expect that the cardinals will be looking for someone who answers different needs than Pope Francis did. And somebody to guide the Church through a period of, I think, greater stability. Pope Francis certainly introduced many changes. He was elected with a mandate to reform the Vatican bureaucracy, parts of which he got done, parts

of which still remain to be done. He made a big push for synodality in the last two October, the big sessions of the Synod on Synodality, as a way to reorganize how the church governs itself and how we talk together as Catholics. So I think after those periods of significant change, there'll probably be a desire for a sort of consolidation for the Church to be able to digest some of that change and integrate it into our normal way of proceeding rather than continue changing all these big things so vigorously. Just before I let you go, how will you remember him? I mean, again, having that personal interaction, but also more broadly, how will you remember

him? So I think I will remember him, and I think he would want to be remembered as a pastor primarily, as someone who deeply cared for people. You know, probably one of the most famous phrases of his papacy, a shepherd who smells like the sheep. He wanted to be close to people, and even on the last day of his life, he was close to people. So I think that's how I'll remember him. I'll also, speaking quite frankly as a journalist, I will remember being on tenterhooks every time he got on a plane and gave an impromptu press conference, waiting to see what he said that we'd be talking about for the next week after that.

Father Sam Sawyer, good to speak with you. Thank you very much. Thanks. Father Sam Sawyer is a Jesuit priest and editor-in-chief of the Catholic publication America Magazine. He was in New York City. it immediately or wanted to know the wildest research an author has done for a book or even what book talk books are actually worth your time. Hi, I'm Morgan Book. Yes, that is actually my last name. And this is Off the Shelf, my new podcast that covers everything related to books. Each Thursday I chat with other bookworms and authors or sometimes it's just me rambling

about my latest book obsession from book to screen updates to hot takes on new releases. And of course, our monthly book club discussions. I've got you covered. So get your TBR list ready and listen to Off the Shelf wherever you get your podcasts. Natan Obed is president of Inuit Teppurete Kanatami, the national representational organization for Canada's Inuit. He was at the Vatican in 2022 when Pope Francis offered the church's apology for historical abuses in residential schools in Canada, he was also part of the delegation that welcomed the Pope to Edmonton later that year.

Natan Obed, good morning to you. Natan Obed Good morning, Matt. Matthew 14.1 Matthew 14.2 Matthew 14.3 Matthew 14.4 Natan Obed How are you remembering Pope Francis today? Natan Obed Well, first and foremost, I'm thinking of the space that he forged in reconciliation between the Church and the Indigenous peoples

of Canada. For First Nations, Inuit, and Métis, we've been pushing for an apology from the Catholic Church for decades. And you never know when that's going to hit home to a Pope or to the leaders of this institution. And this all coalesced rather shortly, but it was Pope Francis' leadership really that made this all possible. So I'm not only thinking of his leadership, but also his humanity. There's a lot of politics at play in what happened. There's a lot that still is to be done, but no matter, Pope Francis did his best with

the power that he had in the moment to show the love and caring and the recognition of human rights abuses against Canada's indigenous peoples at the hands of the Church and for that I'll always be grateful. Tell me more about that. You have said, you said to CBC that the relationship that we, we being members of the First Nations communities in Canada have had with the Catholic Church is complicated but you don't have complicated feelings around Pope Francis. What is it that he said that struck you as genuine and as understanding truly of what you were presenting to him about the scars of the impact of the Catholic Church on those

communities? Well, it's twofold really. The trip that First Nations Inuit and Métis made to the Vatican in the spring of 2022 and the audiences that each of us had with the Pope allowed for Canadian Inuit to interact directly with Pope Francis. And in those meetings, it was quite clear that he was an active listener. He was ready and prepared to speak directly to the concerns that were brought to him. And that he also had an understanding of the differences

between First Nations, Indian and Métis in this country, which is not something that even most Canadians are able to do. But really it was driving home this was the trip to Akhaluid. And it was brought about by the request from Canadian Inuit leadership that I brought forward to Pope Francis in the Vatican meeting and invited him to Inuit Nunangat. And his response was, yes, but not in winter. And that got a big laugh from everyone in the room. But as I left the room, Archbishop Richard Smith said, he said it and we'll do it. And it came to pass. But really it was that we were able, and it came to pass, but really it was that we were able,

Inuit who were survivors of residential school, were able to speak directly to him for over an hour and really just show raw emotion and he showed emotion back. He listened to everyone. He shooed away some of his handlers who were trying to get him to move on to the next event and just sat and listened and really showed shooed away some of his handlers who were trying to get him to move on to the next event and just sat and listened and really showed that he cared.

And I just did not see any way for anyone to fake that. We can be as pessimistic as we can be about leadership, but then you also just have to see true, genuine kindness and compassion. And that's what I saw in Pope Francis in that day. When you visited the Vatican, you asked Pope Francis to intervene in the case of a specific Obelit priest. A priest who died last year had been charged with sexually abusing Inuit children in Nunavut. The Vatican did not intervene in that case, and that priest died in France. What did that tell you about

the limits of action from the Catholic Church? There are many, many people who are deeply disappointed by that. Yes, Johannes Revoir did not stand for the alleged crimes that he committed in Canada and that is a travesty. And the Catholic Church did not do all that it could to ensure that Johannes Revoir was extradited to Canada. And even the Prime Minister, Prime Minister Trudeau, spoke directly to the Pope on this matter and implored them to do whatever they could. I asked directly of Pope Francis that he speak to Johannes Revoir and encourage him to return

to Canada. I said, let's cut through all of the limitations that anyone may have, but if Johannes Revoir is a man of the Catholic faith, would he not listen to his leader? And unfortunately, that conversation did not ever take place. And I think the bureaucracy of the Catholic Church and the fear of the Catholic Church around setting precedents really took center stage within this conversation. And it remains, I think, the hard work that needs to happen.

Pope Francis could say that there was a cultural genocide in relation to the residential school policies in Canada, but he could not, in his power power find the way to speak directly to Johannes Revoir. And I do not blame Pope Francis for that failing. I think that the administration and the structure of the Church still needs to have more compassion for the victims. So just, I mean, finally, before I let you go in the last couple of minutes that we have, we were just talking earlier about what may unfold in the selection of the next pope. What would you want the church to consider when it comes to choosing its next pope, given

what you've said and the work that remains undone in this country? I do hope that the next pope will be just as progressive in relation to respecting the human rights of Indigenous peoples and the difficult legacy of residential schools and the human rights abuses associated with them. There's still a lot of work to be done on the implementation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action and the church's role within those. But ultimately, we know how difficult it is to have one leader build upon the legacy of an ex within any of our institutions. So I do hope that the relationship with Indigenous peoples, the hard work that has been done by Pope Francis, will be considered to be essential work of the Church and that it will be built on by

whomever takes on this role after Pope Francis. You remain optimistic about that? I have no choice. And you know, this is an institution of faith. And you know, I hope that they believe, as I do, that reconciliation is possible and it is necessary. Natan Obad, it's always good to speak with you. Thank you very much. Great to talk to you too, Matt.

Natan Obad is president of Inuit Tabarit Kanatami. It is the national representational organization for Canada's Inuit.