The Current - Will tougher laws make Canadians feel safer?

Episode Date: October 17, 2025

Prime Minister Mark Carney’s government is rolling out sweeping new crime measures — tougher bail laws, longer sentences, and 1,000 new RCMP officers. British Columbia’s Attorney General Niki Sharma reacts to what she calls a long-awaited step toward safer streets. While Kent Roach, professor of law at The University of Toronto questions whether the forthcoming legislation will actually improve public safety.

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Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. Right now, in most bail hearings, the starting point is to release. And the crown must prove why someone should not be released on bail, making it too easy for repeated violent offenders to quickly get back on the street, sometimes back into the same communities that they just, committed crimes in. Our new law will flip that script. Yesterday, Prime Minister Mark Carney revealed his government's plan to change the criminal code.

He says this new legislation, which will be tabled next week, will bring in harsher sentencing and make it much harder for repeat offenders to get bail. It is something that conservatives, police, and many Canadians have been pushing for, especially in the wake of several specific cases across this country. Aaron Dunn's daughter, Tori, was 30 years old when she was killed. the accused in her murder had a lengthy criminal history and was out on bail when he invaded her home in Surrey British Columbia. That's just wrong. That's just, you know, we're very, very angry and we're upset and we want justice for her. This should never have been allowed to happen.

British Columbia's Attorney General, Nikki Sharma, has also been urging the federal government to toughen bail and sentencing laws, and she joins us now. Nikki Sharma, good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being here. You specifically have been asking for what you called real reform. form, is what the Prime Minister has promised that? Well, you know, I'm hopeful. We are here right now with all attorneys generals and public safety ministers and Canaanascus sitting down and getting a real sense of what's happening across the country.

I haven't seen the details of the bill that'll be introduced next week, but I'm hopeful that like the high level of what Prime Minister Carney is talking about is what provinces are asking for and really addresses hopefully some of the issues that we're seeing. you mentioned with the Tori Dunn case, which is just one example for my province. People have examples across the country where these cases have come in really tragic ways to highlight the needs for change. Do you believe that the bail system is set up now in a way that allows people who should be held to be able to walk out of custody?

I think that there are serious issues with the bail system right now when it comes to repeat violent offenders or repeat offenders that are causing continual harm. We have a system that rightly so is innocent to proven guilty and as it should be. But when you come up on bail, there are certain factors about your tendency to recommit those crimes to cause harm to community to be a reoffender that I think needs to be tightened up. So when those factors are taking into account, people that are going to cause harm are being held instead of released. We've asked for very specific things and it's interesting across the country. there's different issues that are plaguing crime. Crime will always evolve and the types of crimes you have to respond to will evolve in every jurisdiction. So unless we always are reflective of what the criminal code is doing and what needs to be changed and address those, then we're going to, you know, we're going to be stuck. You rightly say that we have a criminal justice system that is based on innocent until proven guilty. The charter supports that as well. Do you believe that reverse onus bail where the accused needs to prove that they deserve to be led out on bail?

Does that question or undermine that premise of innocent until proven guilty? Yeah, reverse onus existed in our justice and simply because of the fact that there's certain types of crimes that you should flip that, right? You should say, you know, this person is being picked up and accused of a crime and should they be let out on bail because of the violence of the crime or the type of offender? That's already exists in our system. and what we're asking for is really circling around those times where we see gaps in that application. So one of the things I called for is stricter rules on intimate partner violence because we know when somebody comes forward in the system and says, asking for safety and saying this person's hurting me and there's an accused and that the risk to that victim is really high at that state.

We had another really tragic case in BC where a person out on a bail order convicted of intimate partner violence, killed their victim. So the system needs to respond to these types of offenders that shouldn't be out on the street on bail. So that's the balancing act that the criminal code always needs to strike. And in our view, there's certain crimes where we're out of balance. And you believe that's charter compliant? Again, not talking about those specific cases, but you believe that reverse onus piece is charter compliant? Well, you know, what we have here in Canaanascus is a team full of of a prosecution, big prosecution service across the country, attorneys general public safety ministers that are bringing real proposals

that we think are charter compliant that respect the balance of somebody's rights versus public safety. And we're actually giving those proposals. And I've sent letters to Mr. Fraser from our perspective of what that could be. So absolutely, we need to make sure we're complying with the charter. And we need to strike the right balance. And we have a lot of suggestions from across the country. I have to say the one thing that I really appreciated in the process I've been a part of is the collaboration between the federal government.

Every province is experiencing something different like auto theft in Ontario, extortion, and BC crimes evolve, online exploitation, all those things. And we're facing similar challenges and we're facing different challenges. So the proposals that we've made that hopefully will make it into the bill are about evolving the criminal code to address those. in a way that complies with the charter. The Canadian Bar Association wrote a submission to the Minister of Justice last month on this, saying, in their words, they have long opposed reverse onus provisions as unnecessary from a practical standpoint

and having a disproportionate effect on indigenous accused and others historically disadvantaged in obtaining release. Before you entered politics, you yourself practiced as a lawyer representing indigenous people. Do you worry about what the Canadian Bar Association is saying, that this is going to have a disproportionate effect on a population that is already overrepresented in custody? This is a really important point, and I'm really glad you raised it. We're committed to lessening the impact of what is systemic racism against indigenous people historically in our system.

And that was also very much part of the conversation that we're having. And that means in BC that we have Indigenous Justice Centers that are 15 of them across the country that are there to provide on the ground legal services. We just opened a youth diversion center with the federal government and the First Nations Justice Council that's there for youth that have committed

indigenous youth committed their first petty crime and offense and getting them the cultural supports to get off that path. And the system needs to recognize that there are biases in there. So that's very much a part of the work we're doing. And

when we have stories like Tori Donne and we have stories like repeat violent offenders that have come out and victimized vulnerable people, we know that that stuff, in my view, has to tighten up. And it's always a balancing act, and there's always many things going on when crime rates change, and every government needs to be seized with each factor that's involved, including criminal code changes. Can I ask you about the crime rates?

The latest information that we have from Stats Canada. And again, this is not at all to suggest that those crimes that you've mentioned, the particular incidents are not horrific and tragic. The information from stats can from 2024 shows that the crime severity index, this is measuring the severity of crimes in Canada, is down something like 4.1%. And the police reported crime rate is down 5.6%. So how do you square that with what you're calling for? Because the stats would show that the crime rate is going down. I think both things can be true. We've had a lot of effort into curbing violent offense, putting interventions on the street, working with police to make sure. that people that need mental health supports

are getting it. There's been a lot of effort on the ground to do with crime and crime is very complicated, right? There's many factors related to it. Both things can be true. I think you need to continue to look at the criminal code and say what is evolving in the way crimes are being conducted, like the extortion

that's happening in Surrey, like intimate partner violence and how it shows up in our criminal justice system. You need to evolve the system and put the resources in to do that. So part of our jobs, as public safety ministers and attorneys generals is to always be watching for where how we need to shift the system to respond to what's happening. You're also facing, I think it's fair to say,

ferocious political pressure to do this, right? Well, you know what? I listen to people. I listen to people that come to me and tell me what their needs are. That's my job, whether it's whether it's, whether it's, whether it's, you know, victims of horrific crimes, women's organizations that are representing the intimate partner violence victims. We, you know, we listen. We listen to mayors from across the province that have said, you know, we're having a real trouble with a very small group of people that are causing most of the havoc and issues on the street. You know, we need to step up supports. We need to step up all the things, including figuring out if there are things the criminal code can do better at solving.

Where will you put the people who are not going to be able to get out on bail? We know that that facilities are already, in many jurisdictions, at capacity, if not over capacity. People are being double and triple bunk. So where will you put people? Yeah, you know, that's a, in BC, I don't think we have the same challenges in other jurisdictions, but it was certainly a topic here about the provinces investing in the types of facilities and supports that are needed in their correctional services to think about this problem. Like I said, in BC we don't necessarily have that same issue, but it is a component of it. And, you know, there's a lot of discussion we were having and are every, I think, public.

like safety ministers having about prevention of crime and and getting people on a better path and preventing youth from being recruited into crime and all those spectrums. Because, you know, the last resort is incarceration, right? That's when a lot of systems have potentially failed, right? I need to let you go, but you're confident you've used the word balance a number of times. You're confident that you can get this balance right. Well, I mean, I haven't seen the bill, but I'm hopeful that the minds that or working on it in the Injustice Canada will strike that balance.

Nikki Sharma, glad to talk to you about this. Thank you very much. Yeah, thanks for having me. Nikki Sharma is British Columbia's Attorney General. The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in Canada, and Google is helping Canadians innovate in ways both big and small, from mapping accessible spaces so the disabled community can explore with confidence to unlocking billions in domestic tourism revenue. Thousands of Canadian companies are innovating.

with Google AI. Innovation is Canada's story. Let's tell it together. Find out more at g.co slash Canadian Innovation. At Desjardin, we speak business. We speak startup funding and comprehensive game plans. We've mastered made-to-measure growth and expansion advice, and we can talk your ear-off about transferring your business when the time comes.

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He's written books on various aspects of the justice system. Kent, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt. Politicians of all stripes, police, victims of violence, family members have been long calling for an overhaul of the criminal justice system. I mean, the details are still to be released, but based on what you know so far, what do you make of what the prime minister has announced? Well, I mean, I think it's important to realize that we have on average about 20,000 people each day in provincial prisons. who have been denied bail. So the idea that everyone is denied bail is unfortunately a myth. We also know that it costs about $300 a day to keep people in prison.

To supervise them in the community costs about $26 a day. And so I guess I was a little bit surprised that this echoes, I think, what the conservatives are arguing in their proposed bail, not jail, that a fairly expensive, and I would say simple solution is being offered to some real crime problems that are, as Attorney General Sharma said, are being felt in different ways in different parts of the country. Why should people accused of sexual assault or child trafficking or a violent home invasion get bail and be back out on the streets? well they are presumed innocent and we also know we don't have good data on bail which is one of the problems but from the available data we also know that a significant number of people who are denied bail are actually not convicted

so we're not only ignoring the presumption of innocence but we are punishing people before they are found guilty And I think that is something that should be really troubling in a free and democratic society. And yet there are cases like Tori Duns, Bailey McCourt's in British Columbia, Kelly Verwee in Manitoba, Darren Henderson, Bellman, and Ontario. These are people who are killed by somebody who was out on bail. Can you understand why these new measures seem to give people – they seem to strike the common sense kind of bar for a lot of people. Absolutely. I mean, those are all tragedies. You know, you could add what happened in Hollow Water First Nation on September 4th of this year, a killing by a person who was out on bail. These are all tragedies. But it comes down to a bail decision is basically a predictive decision. Is this person, if released, are they going to commit another crime? The judge at the bail also has tools where,

they can release people under strict conditions. So, I mean, it seems to me that we need to, you know, certainly denying bail in some cases is perfectly legitimate, but we're not good. Judges and humans are not good at predicting future behavior. And so we need to, you know, have denial of bail, but we also need better bail supervision. programs, which will actually be less costly. I mean, one of the things about this, and of course we haven't seen the details of the bills, is, you know, most of the people in provincial prisons are there awaiting trial denied bail.

So, you know, are we going to double our provincial prison capacity? Is that the best use of resorts? to deal with the problems of addiction and precarious housing that are contributing to, you know, real crimes that are happening in different communities. So I just hope that we have a more informed debate because, you know, in 2024, we amended the Criminal Code to add reverse onuses. I mean, the prime minister said we're going to flip the switch. Well, if you look at Section 5156 of the Criminal Code, there's a very long list of offenses where you reverse the onus. So rather than the crown, the prosecutor, having to prove that you might reoffend the accused has to prove. But we can't prove this as if in the same way as we prove that a crime is.

committed in the past. Something that's happened, you know, we do have wrongful convictions, but we can prove it. But basically, and, you know, this has, you know, offers no assurances to crime victims, the families of crime victims, and those who are afraid of crime, we're guessing about the future. And we're going to make mistakes, but we're going to make mistakes both ways. Do you understand why politicians feel like they have to act, though? There is a political dimension to this. And if people don't feel safe, is it not incumbent on those politicians to figure out how to act on that?

Well, no, I mean, I think politicians also have an obligation to educate the public. And they have the obligation to provide informed debate. So, you know, the Conservatives bill, bail not jail, which is a private member's bill, there's actually one part of that, which I think is a really good idea. and that is that we should have an annual report on how many people are denied bail in Canada, which, as I've said, the available data suggests significant. We should know what the cost of that is. We should know when we're making mistakes that we're imprisoning people who maybe are not guilty. We should also know when we're letting people go and they commit crimes.

and we should look at the cost of it. I mean, I come back to, you know, we're under a period of fiscal constraint. The prime minister has told us that, and it costs over $300 each day when we deny bail. It costs about $30, $40, if we ratchet it up, $50 to supervise and support a person that is on bail. Those are the kinds of decisions that are being made. And to simply say we're going to reverse the onus is, you know, I hate to say it, it's a little bit like selling snake oil or saying, I'm going to make rain. We all want less crime.

It isn't as simple as simply reversing the on a bail decision. I have to let you go. We just have a minute or so left. But Nikki Sharma used that word balance a number of times in talking about what she is trying to achieve and what she hopes the federal government will try to achieve. How important is that balance to you? Yeah, I mean, this is going to be the details. So the Supreme Court has accepted some reverse onuses in bail.

They really haven't looked at that issue until the 1990s. If it's sweeping reverse onus for everything, you may see the Supreme Court saying, this violates your charter right to reasonable bail. but it really just depends on the details of the bill, which unfortunately it was announced without the details, which also contributes to, unfortunately, a lack of informed debate. Glad to have you here as part of our conversation to try and flesh out what we know so far, and we'll continue this as the details emerge next week. Kent, thank you very much. Thank you, Matt. Kent Roach is a professor of law at the University of Toronto. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening.

I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cBC.ca slash podcasts.