The Current - Windsor and Detroit are old friends. Could tariffs change that?

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Donald Trump’s threats have left many Canadians angry at the U.S., but things are more complicated in Windsor, a city full of people deeply connected to their neighbours across the river in Detroit. Matt Galloway went there to talk to folks on both sides of the border about their shared history and community — and the future of that friendship.

When a body is discovered 10 miles out to sea, it sparks a mind-blowing police investigation. There's a man living in this address in the name of a deceased. He's one of the most wanted men in the world. This isn't really happening. Officers are finding large sums of money. It's a tale of murder, skullduggery and international intrigue. So who really is he? I'm Sam Mullins and this is Sea of Lies from CBC's Uncovered, available now.

This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, it's Matt here. Thanks for listening to The Current wherever you're getting this podcast. Before we get to today's show, wonder if I might ask a favor of you if you could hit the follow button on whatever app you're using. There is a lot of news that's out there these days. We're trying to help you make sense of it all and give you a bit of a break from some

of that news too. So if you already follow the program, thank you. And if you have done that, maybe you could leave us a rating or review as well. The whole point of this is to let more listeners find our show and perhaps find some of that information that's so important in these really tricky times. So thanks for all of that. Appreciate it. And on to today's show. You're listening to The Current Podcast live from Windsor, Ontario and the Backroad Cafe.

I'm Matt Galloway. For many Windsorites, Detroit isn't just a neighbour. It's the other half of a shared community. More than 40,000 people cross the Windsor-Detroit border every single day. We are joined here at the cafe by three people to talk about the city's relationship with Detroit and how it shapes Windsor's identity, especially in a moment like this. Reno Bortlin is a former Windsor City Councillor and a chef who owns Petrella's Italian street food here in Windsor's Ford City neighbourhood.

He's also a strategic advisor with the University of Windsor Center for Cities. Tom Lucia is a longtime owner of the Fog Lounge. It is a popular live music venue in Windsor. And Jeanette Pierce was one of those people who crossed the border this morning. She's here from Detroit and repping it on her sweatshirt that says Detroit City.

She is the founder of the City Institute in Detroit. Good morning, everyone. Good morning. Good to have you all here Reno Let's start with you. How would you describe your relationship with Detroit? For me, it's as much intertwined as it is being Canadian My mom immigrated to Detroit. My dad immigrated to Windsor both from Italy They met here they dated on the streets of Detroit, going down Woodward to see Elvis

at the Fox Theater. So for me, it's as much part of my growing up as most people have for their origin story of being a newcomer to this country. I'm a first generation Canadian that sees as much home in Detroit as he does in Windsor. So crossing that border, I think it really put a spotlight on us during COVID when the border was closed and we realized just how much we missed it and relied on it. You could see it right there but you couldn't go. Yeah, I mean a lot of you know I joked but I think Jeanette's drive here was shorter than mine today.

So depending on where you live in the city, there's the access points, people don't realize how close it is. We pop out of that tunnel, we're downtown Detroit. So for all the obvious reasons, there's all the cultural aspects. We talk about going to concerts, going to shows, going to all the sports,

but there's the connection with the people. I grew up with lots of family, aunts, uncles, great aunts, cousins, things like that. So it wasn't, this border was almost just, you know, this toll you pay on the way through and that's it. What about for you, Tom? I mean, people talk about this idea of living in a couple

of places at the same time and that they blur the border. What does the border mean to you? Oh, it's blurred for me. The border to me is just a line on the map. It's not really much more than that for me because I'm parroting Reno. My entire life has been memories on both sides. I mean, my parents taking us over to have a different relationship than I have with the city now, which was kind of what I feel like the relationship is for most people in Windsor, which is shopping, going to concerts, going to sporting events, and then coming

right back. That was the old experience I had, which has transformed with a lot of effort on my part. I mean, you do this. You take people from here across the border to show them Detroit. Yeah, it's a- And at Detroit, they might not know. Yeah, it's this mystery, you know, because it's right there and we hear about it a lot. It's in our socials.

But there's a blind spot even for people who do live here that don't experience it the way I try to make my friends experience it. What do you show them? Well, since I'm a dive bar owner, I like taking them to places where like real human beings, ground level Detroiters, real human beings live and well, yeah, not the shiny parts of the city.

Even when I take people over there, we don't even get out of the east side of Detroit. We will spend six and a half, seven hours stopping at the Heidelberg project, for instance, which is this incredible outdoor art display, I would call it. And it's not just about going and having drinks, it's about stopping at the side of the road on Mount Elliot to meet our friends and pick up barbecue. And you're pulling over next to a cemetery in East Detroit and people are like, what are we doing? And it's like, we're going to eat. We're going to eat right here. That smoking box, yep, that's what we're doing.

And other Detroiters are pulling up behind you and next to you and you're having conversations. That's the experience I want to have. I want to meet real people there and I want people in Windsor to meet those real people there. It's just a better experience as a Windsorite and a Canadian knowing them, period. Jeanette, you're on the other side of the river.

And I mean, I said the sweatshirt, but I did not notice the earrings with the big D on it for the Detroit Tigers. Tell me about your relationship and how people in your city view this city, view Windsor. Yeah, so it did take me. I took a photo when I was at the light before going into the tunnel, even paying the toll. Then I took it after the tunnel, the toll and customs and it was literally five minutes. Five minutes from one country to another. Yes.

That's with stopping and paying a toll, talking to somebody, telling them where I'm going, all that stuff. We have such a great city that I'm always talking about, and for a long time I had to remind people that Detroit has always been a great city. But one of the things that makes us great is our proximity to Windsor. We get two countries for the price of one, right?

And it's so close, and there's so many, there's a lot of similarities that bring us together, but there's also just enough differences that make it so interesting and like, you know, oh, why would you go there if we have that here? Well, guess what? We don't have that here. So you do that as well.

You bring people from Detroit over here. Yeah, absolutely. What do you show them? What are the differences? Give me something that you can get here that you wouldn't be able to get over there. So, you know, we, first of all, we always, it's about the people, so we always want to make sure

we talk to the same thing, like, you know, we, first of all, we always, it's about the people, so we always want to make sure we talk to, same thing, like, you know, have a Windsor guide, right? Like, I'm not going to be the storyteller of a place that's, you know, right, that I'm not necessarily from. But the best thing, and I always talk about, like, literally, I'll be like, people, have you been to Windsor lately? And it's the soup dumplings.

Soup dumplings. At Shanghai Bistro. And, you know, the zhaolongbao I don't know if you know the soup is in the dumpling. We don't have it in Michigan There's no soup dumplings in Michigan. I was like I literally didn't even know it existed and 99% of people I tell have you had this And they go no and I talked to our you know some folks in our Chinese community and actually some folks in Chinatown San Francisco and I was I'm working doing some work with them. And it's because it's a northern, like we have more people from, you know, Cantonese,

you know, area and the south. And so that's literally something I will collect for my birthday lunch. I came across the Windsor to get soup dumplings. We have seen the surge in patriotism in the last week. How does that land here in a community like Windsor do you think? People have taken a lot of pride in their country and wrapped themselves in the flag in the wake of this. We have. I think we need to be careful because it also has turned into, for example, booing

a national anthem. What do we need to be careful of when it comes to that? Because again, there are a lot of people who are like, yeah, boo that anthem. Well you're throwing away, you know, hundreds of years of friendship and hundreds of years of connection because of the few stupid actions of one idiot. So I mean, to be blunt. So this is, we need to be careful not to, we know that all the governors, all the senators of all these states are calling every day, telling them not to do these tariffs. It's just a really stupid idea.

We can't take it out on the people. Months ago, we were celebrating the success of the Detroit Lions here. The mayor raised the Detroit Lions flag at City Hall to then come out and say, we don't want you going to do to spend any money there I mean that it's that's not that's not how we should be looking at it. Has that closeness in that relationship been tested in the last week do you think? Well I think so I think I mean there's

there are people like us that I think will go will do the same things but I think a lot of people in Windsor have said, okay, I'm not going over to Detroit For the next month or next few months until this settles But I think they're missing the point and I think a lot of those people Don't fully understand the relationship the relationship as Todd said Tom said it was like there, you know They go over for shopping they go over for the for the things that benefit them only Whereas if there's a reciprocal aspect to it, you realize that a lot of attention has been on Detroit over the last 10 years. But if you're from here, you actually see some of the amazing things happening on the ground

floors. It's not just about these billionaires pouring money into a city. The people of the city have been unbelievably resilient and innovative and creative. And you worry that those people are being targeted by some of the anti-Americanism, but the way that that anger is being directed. Yeah, and to be honest, on their side, it won't hurt them as much. I always compare it, you know, they're the super cool older cousin or older brother of ours. So if the pesky little brother doesn't come around, they won't care.

A lot of Jeanette's friends won't notice that Canadians are not coming over. But I think for us and I think for the general health of this area, Windsor is as much intertwined with Detroit and not just about the economic, the art auto park goes over 11 times across the border, but for everything, for the creativity, for the arts, for that culture, for the soup dumplings. You were nodding as he was saying all of that. I mean, when you hear that anger, I mean, you hear it at the hockey rink, you hear it at the basketball games, but you also see it as well.

How does that strike you? I was shocked to hear my customers having that patriotism, that bite back reaction. Like I've got a free throw contest to win in Detroit on Saturday. I was playing air-chill. My favorite bar. And I'm going to win. But wait, what's wrong? I can't believe that I felt like I was taking heat from my contemporaries here that I still have this extreme interest and love for the people that I know over there. I messaged a bunch of my friends, friends, these are people I care about, telling them

that we were going to do this today and what their thoughts were. And they just said kind of collectively, the border and one person or a collection of people can't stop, you know, the love we have for each other. No, we don't get to see you as often as we'd like, but they still value those relationships. One of my favorite things to ask my new Detroit friends, people when I meet them is, how often do you think of Windsor? And they go, what are you even talking about? What kind of question is that? And I say, well, I probably think about Detroit 50 times a day. How many times are you going to turn your eyes to Detroit

while you're in town for this? You're going to see Detroit and think about it that many times. Plus, whatever is in my social media feed, it's all the sports teams. It's all of that. I got an actual message today from my friend in Detroit and she said, like proudly, I think it wins her maybe once every week or two. That's a very different way that we think of one another. We have this enormous

dependency and love for the people there, but it does take a little bit more effort on our side. So it's not an exact same relationship, but it's super valuable to me regardless of that lopsidedness. I want to talk to the American here in a moment, but how do you unscramble that idea that people feel pride in their country, but part of that pride perhaps is leading them to say, I'm going to buy here and we're not going to visit the United States, we're not going to go down there, that they are represented by somebody that we take offense to. And so there it's a collective kind of sense of anger.

How do you take that apart? It's exactly the way people have relationships with different customers of mine. Sorry to boil it down, but people who are like, how do you stand that guy? It's like, I have to take the best of every customer I have. It doesn't mean that I'm best friends with every single one of them. So I can't look at somebody who wants to be selective and not go or choose where they're gonna spend their money

and tell them they're wrong because people have different relationships with even people or countries. Mine is really intimate. It's much different than most people. So it just, it stinks. I really don't want that for them. I'm trying to bring people over there to give them the human side, have them meet their contemporaries over there. And this, this whole mess is messing with

that. Jeanette, you're the American here at the table. How do you make sense of what is an anti-American sentiment that, that, I mean, people often in this country will define themselves as not being from the United States But that's become sharper in the last few days. Well, there's a couple things Detroit is always kind of we're used to people being like Well, we're not Detroit. I mean don't you know, that was the thing was like Oh, how far are you from Detroit was how people would say and now everybody a little bit more wants to be like connected to Detroit So we're kind of used to people not caring that much about us

or putting us in the doghouse. And that is when the people and the relationships do matter the most, right? And I guess one thing that just popped in my head was, the problem about getting extra nationalism and being anti-other countries is kind of how we got into this mess in the first place, I feel like. What do you mean? So this whole, right? So, I mean, this whole us and, you know, we only care about us.

We don't need your stuff. You know, and we, we, it's like, you know, I mean, it goes all the way back to, you know, Germany, right? You have like, when you have, there's a slippery slope when you start to, or a negative side to a, a nationalism and a, you know, really against everybody else kind of thing. But I also understand it. So this is the thing, Detroit is not the, we're more with you guys.

Look at if you want to get into who Detroiters voted for. Our president does not like Detroit. But a lot of people around Detroit voted for him. I mean, again, when we were in Dearborn and other places like that, a lot of folks, people in the auto sector who were supporting Donald Trump who said this is gonna bring the jobs back to our, I just wonder how, what the future of that relationship is

given the last week, what are you worried about? I think, I mean, again, all of the financial domino effects, absolutely. And we care about the small businesses here. We care about the tomatoes coming over. I think, and this is kind of one of the bigger issues as well, is that people in Detroit and Michigan and America, to some extent, to your point, they might not think about Canada all the time. But I think they would notice right

They are gonna notice when like I I drove a Pacifica here. I probably passed the plant that I got my van I have triplets. I need a Pacifica man, you know and And I don't want to I'm already but you know I was already paying a lot for it and now you know So I think people are gonna notice and even if they don't realize it and one last thing before we just because yeah Only one-third of America voted for our president Okay, one-third voted for a president one-third voted for the other person and one-third didn't vote, right? So it seems like this majority but the vet there's more of us that are frustrated and scared is then

Than not Reno. I'm gonna let you all go, and I mean there's a big breakfast menu here so people might wanna eat as well. But there are real concerns about the economic health of this community, and it's the agriculture, it's the auto sector, it's the threats of those kind of tariffs coming in. What worries you most about the future of this town?

Or are you worried? I think you know unfortunately we're a little bit used to it. The boom and bust of the auto sector has prepared us. We've gone through these boom and bust cycles including you know COVID most recently so we're a little bit used to it but I think what worries me is sort of this this new this new idea of nationalism that changes where we now are starting to focus elsewhere that would change that relationship with Detroit. So just looking at that specifically, we will come out of this with new trading partners, with new trade deals, whether it's the EU or other organizations or countries.

But you're going to live next door to the United States no matter what. Exactly you know I have season tickets to the Detroit City soccer team. I don't want it to be where I can't go see those games. I don't want it to be where all of a sudden they do something stupid like we need a visa to visit or you need a visit or a visa to do any work there. We want this to be a seamless area. I say this all the time. This is one of the best urban environments in the country to live in, except for maybe Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal, and I still would compete with them because of that proximity and because

of that relationship. So when we talk about how great it is to be Canadian here, it's so great to be Canadian here because we have Detroit so close. It's good to have you all here. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Safe trip back across the border. It'll probably take you less time to do that. It's true. It'll take us to get back to our hotel. Reno Bartolin is a former Windsor City Councilor, owner of Petrella's Italian street food here in Windsor's Ford City neighbourhood. Tom Luescher is a long-time owner of the Fog Lounge. It's a live music venue here in Windsor. And Jeanette Pierce came from Detroit to talk with us. She is the founder of the City Institute in Detroit, joining us here at the Backroad Cafe in Windsor.

Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy. Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighbourhood, or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto wherever you get your podcasts. This is Toronto, wherever you get your podcasts.

The city of Windsor is one of Canada's most diverse cities. And for the Black community here, the roots go back to the 1800s. Windsor played a crucial role in the Underground Railroad, helping Black families escape slavery and come to Canada. Irene Moore-Davis is Assistant Curator of the Amherstburg Freedom Museum, president of the Essex County Black Historical Research Society. And she's here with us in the cafe as well. Good morning to you.

Good morning. This is a personal story for you. Tell me about your family's connection to Windsor and how your family got here. Oh, I mean, so many of my ancestors came here through the Underground Railroad and have been here since the early 19th century. They came from Green County, North Carolina, they came from Mason County, Kentucky, they came from Frankfort, Kentucky and other

places and made their way here with dire circumstances and there are many descendants around. How closely are you tied to the city of Detroit? We have just been talking about how people's lives in many ways overlap with that city. It is as integrated as you could possibly imagine. What about for your family? to the city of Detroit. We've just been talking about how people's lives in many ways overlap with that city.

That it is as integrated as you could possibly imagine. What about for your family? I think that for a lot of families, regardless of ethnicity here, there are tons of connections to Metro Detroit. But for black community members especially, it's very rare that we don't have tons of relatives in the D.

The D. Yeah. I mean, truthfully for me, I have way more blood relatives at this point in Metro Detroit than I do in Essex County just because of the way that populations flow, the way that people move across to seek better opportunities and so on. I just came back not long ago from my cousin's 60th birthday party in Farmington Hills. I mean, this is just a very normal thing and we do really think of ourselves as a transnational group of people.

How then has the last week in a bit, but it's not just the last week in a bit, as everyone's been saying, this has kind of been hanging over this community for a long time, how has that impacted that relationship? This is really one of very few times in my life that I've had a sense of an actual border. 9-11 was one of those times, the pandemic when the border was closed was one of those times and now is one of those times when people just aren't as comfortable crossing and being together necessarily. Can you explain that? Because I think a lot of people perhaps outside of this community

would say, I mean, it's a border, of course it's a border. And when you cross the border, there are things you need to do, there are things you need to have. You never really thought about that. I mean, if you grow up in Windsor and Essex County, it doesn't really feel like a border. This is a place where, you know, for many of us growing up,

our rites of passage happened mostly in Metro Detroit. All of those fun things that we did when we were coming of age and, and you know, just flashing a birth certificate was all you needed to do to get there. There are moments in world history when that border becomes a border. After 9-11, things became much stricter for a while. During the pandemic, it was actually shut down. And now there's a sense of, you know, something lost once again. I literally had a message last week from a dear friend from Detroit who said, given the fact

that our two countries are at war, I probably won't be crossing as often. I had to explain we're not actually at war. But that says something. But it does say something. And people have that sense. I mean, for us as family members, I don't think that we're going to allow this to stop us from being together. Our family reunions happen on either side of the border, often alternating, and we're just, you know, we're always connected. And it's funny, I was listening to Tom in the past, in the last interview, talk about how, you know, people in Detroit don't think of Windsor that

often, but for our family members, they think of it all the time. We really recite to one another all the time our origin story. We're very keenly aware of the family stories, the ancestral stories. We all talk about them, regardless of whether our cousins have grown up in Michigan or here. So what would you want the rest of the country to know about these ties? Again, one of the reasons we came down here is because something has happened in the last week

and how people think of that border is different now. Maybe they're worried about what might be coming, but they're also thinking about their relationship with the United States. What would you want the rest of the country to know about this relationship and where it might go in future? I think that we have to be keenly aware that there are forces that seek to divide us and

we have to make sure that we're doing the necessary things to safeguard our economy, but we should not allow this to cultivate any kind of hatred or division between people. Are you worried about that? We've used this phrase, anti-Americanism. I mean, there's a pro-Canadian sentiment, but it can lead to an anti-Americanism or defining yourself because you're not somebody else. Are you worried about that?

I think that there's always a piece of Canadian culture that's about seeing ourselves in binary terms as in contrast to the United States. It is, for example, why we sometimes, you know, deny the existence of racism here because we're always thinking, well, we're not like those people over there. But I think that it's really important

that we don't allow ourselves to fall into those easy definitions and that we have to understand that most American people are good people and we've got to keep working alongside them and understanding that these are integrated economies, that there are socio-cultural ties that are undeniable, and we've got to keep nurturing those, especially in a border region like this one.

It's so important that we don't let those relationships go. Who are you thinking about when you talk about that? Is there, like, one person or a group of people specifically that you're thinking about? I mean, I'm always thinking about these people. They're the people with the good recipes and people that show me the good new dances and all of that stuff. Glad to have you here. Thank you very much for being here. Thanks so much. Irene Moore Davis is Assistant Curator of the Amherstburg Freedom Museum and the President of the Essex County Black Historical Research Society.

And she joined us here in the Backroad Cafe to talk about those ties and the very personal ties between Windsor and Detroit. Whenever you visit a city, it is a smart idea to ask, this is the first thing often I will do, what's good to eat here? The city is home to a growing Middle Eastern community. We were directed to Sham Sweets, which is owned by the Haboub family. They came to Canada as refugees from Syria, walked over the border from the United States into Canada in 2017. Mohammed Amir and his wife, Hanadi Amir Alty,

and their sons became Canadian citizens last year. They proudly call Windsor home. And this place, Sham Sweets, welcomes customers from Windsor and from Detroit looking for their crazy good baklava. He says crazy good baklava because he had some last night and it was delicious. One of those customers was just walking in as our producer, Joanna Jurgici, got in. Can I order the pound of baklava, this pistach, and this cashew with black coffee, very delicious. I'm so happy to meet you. Hello, so nice to meet you. Me too, how are you?

I'm good, how are you? Good, Alhamdulillah. I make sweets, this baklava. Five hours I make this baklava every day. I came to Canada before eight years ago. Somebody told me that the weather in Hunzor is very beautiful. Hunzor is good for starting life. Very beautiful. Hunzor is good for start life.

When I arrived to Canada, to Hunzor, after maybe two months, and open business. I open small store and after one year go to other store bigger. And now your sons are working here? Yeah, I have three sons. My name is Abdul Malik, we are really happy and enjoying living in Canada, especially in Windsor. And it's like a new border with the US, like we live between two countries. That means more like a mixed culture. And we can sometimes get supplies from the US, and sometimes we go there to enjoy the weekend.

I feel really welcome here and it's very easy to meet friends and new friends. Because why in the street here, everywhere you can see the signs in Arabic, that means we have a lot of Arabic community. So we have a lot of friends. With all the talk about the uncertainty, the tariffs, people being afraid of losing their jobs here, have you felt that in the community? Yes, I feel that, yeah, I feel that. And I feel like everyone is having fear and like they just like think about in the future what we have to do if that's happened.

We are a neighbor in the end. We have to stand together and to live together. That's the point. So you guys are still getting ready, because you've expanded, right? So you're still putting some stuff up. I want to make like Arabic coffee in the corner and beautiful design for walls, like make it like a historic design for walls, like a Damascus design.

We are the new generation, and the grandfather give us this, not anyone like can make baklava. It's like we have special way to make it. We make everything handmade. I feel, that's feeling that I want to share taste of baklava to not just my country. I want to share it also in Canada and US. So to make like not just one sweet shop, I want to make one and two and three everywhere in Canada.

I want to make that like a culture of like a Middle Eastern sweets. It's my grandfather's work. I have to follow it.