The Current - Windsor’s workers in the firing line of Trump’s tariffs

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

Thousands of Windsor’s autoworkers have been rattled by U.S. President Donald Trump's claim that America doesn't need Canadian cars. Matt Galloway spent a morning at the Backroad Cafe in Windsor — across the street from the Stellantis auto plant — to talk to workers worried about the threat that Trump’s tariffs pose to their livelihoods in the auto industry, as well as the region’s substantial agricultural sector.

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You're listening to The Current Podcast, live from Windsor, Ontario, in the Backroad Cafe. I'm Matt Galloway. Detroit may be the Motor City, but on this side of the river, I am in the heart of Canada's auto sector, looking out at a parking lot that is full of Chrysler vans at the Stellantis plant. The industry is the main economic driver for this region.

It employs thousands of people and for these workers, the stakes are very, very high with the threat of 25% tariffs from the United States looming. James Stewart is president of the local union that represents workers at that Stellantis plant and Jonathan as a party is the president of Laval International, an auto parts tool and mold manufacturer in the region. They both join us here in the cafe with the coffee. Good morning to you both. Good morning. James, how are you feeling?

It's been some week. You know, it's been more than a week. The threats have been there for, you know, a year. He's been talking about terrorists. How that was going to look here in Canada obviously wasn't outlined clearly and the goalposts have moved a lot since he came into the presidency so you know it's been rough and it's it I don't think that's over yet I think it's going to continue to be rough for a while yet. John you said that in some ways it feels like a funeral. Yeah. What did you mean by

that? Well it's funny I was sitting in the same room in the same spot in the same chair eight years ago. And things felt a little different back then. This time it feels like a funeral because it seems like our best friend, who we've had a relationship for many years, as you said, most of us have families on both sides of the border. Most of us, you know, if we had to go to dinner, we'd go to the other side of the border. All of a sudden, that seems like it's died to us, like that's been closed to us.

And that's, in a lot of ways, that's hurtful and we're starting to get a bit angry. You make your way here to this cafe James and you come through, I mean the plant is everywhere around here. It's enormous and you see everybody who's heading into work as we're making our way in. This is the largest employer in Windsor, Stellantis is. What would 25% tariffs mean for the auto industry here? It would be devastating. Devastating. Make no mistake, when you understand the system, you understand no one knows this better than Jonathan, but the

parts that go into the vehicle, they cross the border six to eight times before it's actually built and then shipped. So if you can imagine each part every time it crosses the border getting a tariff of 25%, the cost of the vehicle goes up exponentially and consumers aren't going to buy it. And suppliers that have to bear the brunt of the cost of the vehicle goes up exponentially and consumers aren't going to buy it. And suppliers that have to bear the brunt of the cost originally won't be afforded to ship the parts that they need. So I think it would affect our plants almost immediately on both sides of the border in the States, in Canada and in Mexico. The plants, but what about the people who work in those plants?

What are you hearing from your members about what this last week in a bit has been like? They're nervous and I think they feel a lot uh the same feelings that everyone is feeling. I mean the the belief was if those tariffs came into place on Tuesday the talk was that lines were going to shut down within a week. Then that's true we would do everything we can to keep them running as long as we can but there's no doubt without uh the stop of the tariffs that could happen very quickly. I don't know if it's a couple of days, I don't know if it's two weeks, but it would be fast. For people who have mortgages, car

payments, they have kids in hockey and dance and whatever else. Terrifying. It's one word, terrifying. The whole world would change literally overnight. We have good things bargained in our collective agreements but the supply chain

doesn't have those things. Work protections, income protections for a short period of time. That would, it would be a terrifying feeling for these workers and the result would be terrible. This city would be affected almost immediately. What about for you, John? Tell me about Laval and what you make, but also the stakes for your business in the face of this threat. Well, Matt, tell me about Laval and what you make, but also the stakes for your business in the face of this threat.

Well, Matt, I'd like to say that you're welcome to the manufacturing capital of Canada. The automotive is a big part of our economy and our community, but we are a manufacturing juggernaut. So what this community has done is continue to make things that make things.

So that's what we do. We primarily make molds that make parts that go into potentially vehicles or other products. So we have two plants, one that makes the equipment, one that makes the parts. So our parts, as James was saying, we live the spirit of what the Free Trade Agreement was written for. We will buy American steel.

So steel is about 50% of our cost of goods. We buy that from America. We take that American steel, turn it into a mold, send it to the United States, have it further processed by Americans and American companies, bring it back to Canada, finish processing it, take that, send it to the United States, then Americans take that equipment and make parts that will be put into vehicles that will be sold in Canada and the United States. By definition, that's what a free trade agreement was written for.

For us to invest in both communities, in both countries equally, at the end to benefit both countries. Sitting in a cafe, I mean, that's like, you can't unscramble the omelet. Do you know what I mean? Like it sounds as integrated as you could possibly be. And that's how we feel about it.

I mean, I can speak for myself and I can probably speak for James and probably everybody in this room. We've done everything we could since we've been born in this community to make the border non-existent, imaginary. Doesn't exist. And it seems like all of a sudden, because of one person, and I'm going to say it's the Trump tariffs, not the American tariffs, because I don't think the Americans obviously

don't believe in what's happening because they believe in the same system as us, that it's all changed. Do you feel betrayed by that? Absolutely. Yeah, like I said before, and this is no lie, I have half of my family on that side of the border. And it feels like it's literally been closed to us because of somebody's agenda.

James, what do you make of, there's a buy Canada mentality right now. We talked about this on the program, people go into the grocery store and they're looking, you know, at the can of beans, trying to figure out where they came from, looking for the little sticker on it. And it's not just in the grocery store and they're looking at the can of beans trying to figure out where they came from, looking for the little sticker on it. And it's not just in the grocery store, it's

well beyond that as well. What do you think people across this country need to understand about how that bicanada mentality is being felt differently in this community? Well, I don't think it is different. I think what happened with Trump and his proposed tariffs, it was a betrayal.

John's right. We cross the border for concerts. We cross the border for dinners. There's a revitalization of Detroit. It's a good place to go for an evening out. We have family. We have people that live in this city. We have 1,500 nurses that live in this city and work in Detroit.

We are very close knit. You are right. You almost feel like the border is not there. It is there. You go through it. You show your ID. But it is a betrayal. That is the way we feel.

It is not by the American people. We have friends and family there. But you can see people in the grocery stores looking at this. But I think the challenge for us is greater because you can choose to buy Canadian all you want. And I think it's really what's happened is polarized Canadians in that venue. But we still, in manufacturing, in auto manufacturing, we still depend on 90% of our product crossing the border

and being sold in the States. I guess, I mean, part of it is there's a buy Canadian mentality, but there's also people who are booing the American national anthem. There are people who was on the train yesterday and a guy had a hat on with the stars and stripes on it. And I will say, as he walked down the aisle of the train, people kind of gave him the stink eye as he was walking down the aisle. It's not about just buying Canadian.

It's an attitude in some ways that's been directed towards people in the United States. And when you say that you have that close of tie, people talk about how this isn't, people look at this as a suburb of Detroit or that Detroit is a suburb of Windsor. It's more than just being neighbors, right? And I just wonder how that strikes different here. I personally don't feel that the American people are against Canadians. I don't. I have people texting me, friends and don't. I have people texting me, friends and family saying, I'm sorry what's going on. They know what my job is. I'm

sorry what's going on. I feel so bad. And that's directly from people who live right in Michigan. So I don't feel it towards American people, but I certainly feel it towards the administration. And the lack of understanding that Canada has been the number one ally to the US for 100 years. We've been the number one trading partner with the US. We sell our oil and gas at a discounted rate. The oil and gas is the only reason there's a surplus for the Canadian market. You take that out of the picture and there's a deficit in trade with Canada. So when you're talking about perception, I don't feel it towards the American people.

I certainly do feel betrayed by the administration that's there today You know, what's interesting is before the election We were down in Dearborn and we talked to a lot of folks who work in the auto sector on that side of the border And they were really enthusiastic about voting for Donald Trump and they talked about that idea of reshoring an industry They understand that it goes back and forth and back and forth, but they felt that he represented their interests more. Do you? Do you understand where they were coming from? I think they don't understand how it would affect their auto industry. I don't think...

Even people working in that industry. It's an easy thing to say. It's an easy thing to say that, oh great, he's going to rebuild the American manufacturing sector, and realistically, the tariff issue and what he's doing. Canada didn't take jobs away from the US. We're good paying in auto. We're good paying jobs. We have good benefits.

We're not losing, the states isn't losing jobs to Canada. They're losing jobs to jurisdictions that don't pay good wages, that don't have high health and safety regulation. That's where they're losing jobs to, not Canada. And I think there's a misunderstanding by some of the Americans that maybe work in the auto industry not recognizing how this would affect them, not understanding that parts

cross the border before they land in a vehicle six and seven times from Mexico to Canada to US. So not recognizing how it would affect their industry the way the whole system is developed today. John, you talked about feeling betrayed. In light of what's happened and what may still come, I mean, people say that this is a reprieve or a stay of execution briefly or something like that.

How are you rethinking your relationship with the United States? Well, it's, I will say, and I will say this honestly, and probably a lot of people don't wanna hear this, but in my lifetime, we will not see us not become dependent on the United States. That's just the reality. That that dependency will continue.

Oh yeah, absolutely. And I don't think it's a bad thing. I've honestly always said to everybody, people have come to me and said, you know what, we should break our dependency to the United States. And I keep saying, why do you want to do that? Why does the pie have to be less?

Why can't the pie be more? Why can't we continue to create this relationship that we've had for so many years that has been great? Why can't the pie be more? Why can't we continue to create this relationship that we've had for so many years that has been great? Why can't we just add to it? Why can't we go to other countries in addition to the United States? Everybody thinks it has to be without. And I'm gonna be honest with you,

I think that should be the plan. We are very fortunate. We have access to the largest consumer in the world. We have been a great trading partner. We've been a great partner in their growth. And I don't see that changing. I do see that right now we have some things that we need to work on.

If I was the Americans, I would probably be looking at our banking system and our communications and our milk as an example, as our dairy industry, as maybe an insult, right? We want access to their markets. They need access to our markets. I think that a looser border is probably in the cards. I think we have to seriously consider that.

That does not mean we're gonna become the 51st state. That shouldn't be in the cards. I'm not excited about that at all. But I think the European Union showed that you can have looser borders that still work for everybody. And I don't think somebody who lived in Germany after the EU, I don't think they were less German.

So I don't fear that we would become less Canadian, but I do think over the next six months to a year, you're probably gonna see some changes and some of those changes maybe, you know, for the first time for a lot of us. I'm gonna let you both go, but what do you want the rest of the country to know about what is happening here and how that plays out?

Well, I mean, I won't jump in on what James got to say, but I'm going to say that, you know, pay attention to what happens in Windsor. We're like the canary in the mine. What happens here and how we, the outcome of what happens here in the short term is what the rest of Canada will feel in the next six months. So we're going to continue to fight hard. We think that there's a win at the end of this, but pay attention to what's going on.

James? My message would be that, and I'm a labor person. So I think labor, business, government have to work together to make sure that we're successful and we withstand this. Do you see that now? Do you see that happening now? I think it certainly has changed

over the course of the last three weeks. And I think that, you know, there's some bipartisanship, the I think some of what Jonathan said is correct. And the way things are going to change, I think it's a two prong approach. You know, in some ways we have to expand our markets around oil, gas, critical minerals, finding new markets, but at the same time, we are going to be dependent on the states. Manufacturing, skilled trades, investments, they're going to continue to be our number one trading partner. So I think you're right.

Watch Windsor, and we're going to work hard be our number one trading partner. So I think you're right. Watch Windsor. And we're going to work hard from the labour community, work hard to do everything we can to support Canada across the board. It's good to have you both here. Thank you very much. Thank you, Matt. Thank you. James Stewart is president of the local union representing workers at the Stellantis plant, which is right across the street from us here at the Backroad Cafe. Jonathan, as a party, is president of Laval International.

It's a tool and mold manufacturer in Essex County. I'm Sarah Trelevin, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now. The automotive sector is a major economic driver in the city of Windsor, but agriculture is a close second. Essex County is home to the second largest concentration of greenhouses in the world, shipping billions of dollars of tomatoes, peppers, and cucumbers across the border every year. And as you can imagine, a 25% tariff on that sector would be devastating. Richard Lee is executive director of the Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable Growers, and he joins us here in the Backroad Cafe. Good morning to you. Good morning, Matt. How are you?

I'm well, thanks. I gave the kind of thumbnail sketch. Tell me about the size of your industry. I've read that something like 80% of all greenhouses in Canada are in this area. Yeah, Southwestern Region is the host of the majority of our production. We represent over 4,400 acres of greenhouse vegetable production, dedicated to cucumber, tomato, and pepper production. 3,200 acres of that is located in Essex County. That would consist of the Kingsville,

Ruthven, and Leamington area. Something I did not know until rating it this week was that a lot of the cherry tomatoes, for example, a lot of the cherry tomatoes that people buy in the United States come from right here. Yes, yes, so we rely heavily on the U.S. for access. We reach about 58% of the U.S. population. Our proximity to the borders ensure that

we can get fresh nutritious vegetables to the store shelves within a day's drive. So I mean, when you talk about fresh produce, it can't get much fresher than that. All these tomatoes that you see, there's different varieties, peppers and cucumbers, a lot of snacking varieties that are hitting the shelves in the US market.

And we go as far down south as the Florida, southern tip of Florida. So you get a 25% tariff, what does that do to this industry? Very challenging. You look at the supply chain, there's not the margins anywhere along that supply chain where a grower, a produce seller, or a retailer can absorb. So ultimately that taxes the end consumer. Could they be just sold here instead of being shipped to the States? Yeah you know what Ontario

retailers, Canadian retailers do their best to take what they can. And I ask you that in the context of like the buy Canadian kind of movement. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah there's no interprovincial challenges. We have greenhouses on the West Coast, Quebec that can steadily supply retailers. But the Canadian population compared to the US is just so, it's 10%. We couldn't eat all the tomatoes and cucumbers that you're growing, as good as they are.

We grow 505 million kilograms of produce a year. So to put that into context, that's about 300 trailer truckloads leaving farms daily, with 200 of them destined south of the border. So what are you hearing from growers in the region as I mean there's this 30 day reprieve but nobody knows what's going to happen at the end of 30 days and Donald Trump has been president for two weeks.

Very concerned a lot of investment made into the sector we experienced the most sunlight throughout the year, which makes our farming location optimal. There's a lot of investment that's at risk here. And it's not like my counterparts that were just on earlier. We can't shut the switch off. We can't shut that production line off. The investment has been made. The crops are planted.

So what does that mean? People are just going to lose money? Are companies going to go under? I really hope that's not a problem. I think it's a problem. that production line off. The investment has been made, the props are planted. So what does that mean? People are just going to lose money or what? Are companies are going to go under? I really hope that's not a not a foreseeable future. But you must be looking at, you know, doomsday scenarios or at the very least trying to game this out. Yeah, worst case scenario, you're looking at impacting

over 29,000 jobs across the full value chain. You're talking about truckers, you're talking about pallet boxes, marketing, advertising. If that market is completely shut off, these marketers and these growers are very resilient. They'll find ways to be able to keep the doors open, but it's going to come with some pain. What does that tell you? And again, we wanted to come down here because,

as I said, you're in Windsor, the United States is right there. You can see it, but also the ties are just kind of back and forth and back and forth all the time. What is what you're saying tell the rest of the country about the state of that relationship between these two countries? Leadership. We need leadership.

We need policy alignment with our key trading partners. We need to be able to strengthen that relationship to promote the economies in both countries as opposed to weakening it. And these tariffs and retaliatory tariffs only weaken that relationship. What would you say to your friends on the other side of the border? I mean, one of the neat things about being here is that media crosses the border too, and so the radio wave is going to go back and forth and back and forth. So folks in the United States

were listening to this broadcast. What would you say to them? Integrated North American supply chain. If I bring us back to the pandemic, food flowed freely across that border. We fed North America, there were no issues. We need to enhance that and we need to be enabled by our federal government to ensure that North America is fed.

Are you losing sleep over all of this? It feels like groundhog day since just after Christmas and into the new year. And it's the same messaging and we're hoping that leaders in Canada and the US are listening. You just wonder whether they are. I'm listening. You just wonder whether they are. I'm sorry? You just wonder whether they are listening. It's tough. We're in a tough situation with the provincial government and federal government and that's

where we're looking for that leadership. Richard, thank you very much. Thank you, Matt. Richard Lee is executive director of the Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable Growers. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.