The Current - Worried about travelling across U.S. border? Listen to this

Episode Date: May 2, 2025

Canadians travelling to the U.S. have been warned to “expect scrutiny” at the border, including the possibility that border officials may search their electronic devices and detain them for questioning. Matt Galloway talks to immigration lawyer Heather Segal and cybersecurity expert Ron Deibert about what Canadians should think about before travelling, whether you should bring a burner phone — and what your rights are as a visitor to the U.S.

1942, Europe. Soldiers find a boy surviving alone in the woods. They make him a member of Hitler's army. But what no one would know for decades, he was Jewish. Could a story so unbelievable be true? I'm Dan Goldberg. I'm from CBC's personally, Toy Soldier, available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is the current podcast. Arash Abizadeh was supposed to attend a conference this month in the United States, but the political science professor at McGill University in Montreal decided to cancel his trip. I started seeing a lot of news about people being

arrested at the border and being detained and thrown into the ICE prison system and being held for what seems like arbitrary reasons. Amid the trade war and growing tensions with the U.S., there are an increasing number of reports of Canadians being denied entry to the US. A 35-year-old Canadian citizen, Jasmine Mooney, was held in detention for 11 days after being taken into custody crossing into the US from Mexico. The federal government updated its travel advice for the US earlier this month, telling Canadians to, in the government's words, expect scrutiny at ports of entry, including of electronic devices.

Arash is among a growing number of people in this country who are changing their plans as a result. this way. We just don't know what it is that they're going to target. It's not transparent. So you can say, well, I haven't done anything wrong. You can say, I don't have this background. You just don't know what it is that's being the target of it. Some school boards are also putting a pause on trips to the U.S., including the biggest school board in British Columbia. Surrey School District Superintendent Mark Paramain says it's not worth the risk. The last thing we want to do is have a student or a staff member put into a very, very difficult situation at a border, maybe having a visa issue or concern raised.

And that's just not what we wanted to do at this point in time. Heather Siegel is founding partner of Siegel Immigration Law in Toronto. And she's with me in studio, good morning. Good morning. Let's talk about the details and the questions and the tips that people might have.

But how realistically, how worried should people be Good morning. Let's talk about the details and the questions and the tips that people might have. But realistically, how worried should people be crossing the border into the United States right now? Well, things have changed and it's not quite what it was before. There's been a paradigm shift in the United States and people are catching up and it's a process of catching up. I always say, if you want to understand a country, look at two factors, um, immigration and tax. They're, they're almost a beeline to understanding what's going on in the country. And of course we have tariffs and there's been dramatic changes in the United States with immigration.

And so the powers that are being used by the immigration officers at the border right now are not new powers. They've always had the discretion. It's just that there's a much more enforcement-minded perspective. What kind of calls are you getting from people about this? I get calls every single day. A lot of my calls are from Americans who are afraid and want to leave actually, which I've never seen in 30 years of practice.

That's a separate story perhaps, but yes, we'll come back to that. What about from Canadians? From Canadians, I'm getting calls about, should I go? Very much echoing what these folks who've just saying on the clips. Uh, there's a group of people who may want to think twice or be aware.

Everyone has to be aware. There's, there's people who are trans, which they have now said there are two genders in the United States and it's the one you're born with. There's a list of 43 countries that are proposed to be banned countries with varying degrees of banning, depending on the color they are coded.

That's an issue. Also, like the clip said, people who are not born in Canada, but are Canadian citizens from countries that might be problematic to the United States foreign policy. That's another group of people who may have issues. Let's walk through some of the details here. What are the rights that Canadians and other non-U.S. citizens have at the border? So, not a lot. When you make an application to enter, when you're seeking permission to enter the United States,

which is a privilege, not a right, uh, you are relinquishing your right to privacy. Uh, you are accepting the rules of that new country that you're entering and that's all international, wherever you go. Uh, but the, so the, so you don't have rights. Now there is a place where you do have rights, which I always recommend people go to, which is pre-flight inspection because we are on Canadian soil.

So how is this different? I mean, would you advise if people can with the, is it better to cross at the border at an airport or at a land crossing? Without question. At an airport. A hundred percent. Because you have pre-flight clearance. Precisely.

We're on Canadian soil. So if you don't like the line of questioning, if you're feeling uncomfortable, if you're just worried for whatever reason, you can say, you know what? I don't want to travel. I'm going to leave. And you'll go home and sleep in your bed that night. As opposed to at a land border crossing, which if you say those sorts of things, what happens? You can be detained.

You can be, I mean, look what happened to Jasmine, a perfect example. She got sent over to, I think it was Texas or Louisiana. This is a woman who's coming, traveling through, from Mexico into the United States trying to come in. Precisely. So at a land port of entry, they have the right to detain you. You have no rights. You cannot leave and you must let them look at all of your stuff, your phones, everything. Are there things, and I want to talk about phones in a moment, but are there things that people should think about, prepare for going to the border right now, before you even get to the border crossing?

100%. There's two questions when you get to the border. To the point of the question of what are they looking for? What's the purpose of your visit and how long are you staying? What's the purpose of your visit is going towards, are you gonna be working here? Because if you're working, you need permission.

The second question, how long are you staying, is going towards are you staying permanently, because there used to be a premise, it might be shifting, that everybody wanted to stay permanently. And the onus is on the person applying to prove that neither one of those is the case. I am in fact going on a holiday. So have evidence of your holiday. Print your documents, print your hotel, print your return ticket, print your tickets to a show or to a game or wherever you want.

And anything that's going to prove that you are going down there for whatever purpose you're saying you're going down there, but you're going to come home. Precisely. As well as potentially evidence of ties to Canada. Now, if you're super worried and you're in a potentially risky category that I mentioned, you might want to have evidence of your ties to Canada. Letters from your employer saying you're working in Canada, evidence of your rent or ownership of home, whatever it is, ties to Canada that reflect your coming home.

So much of our lives is on this device that I have in my hand right now, the phone. You've recommended that people travel with a burner phone, that I don't take my phone, that I get some sort of disposable device or something. Why would you do that? Okay, so it's been controversial because there's been some people who say

it's gonna alert people to make it an issue and they'll be suspicious. The thing is, is that the phone has the most personal private information. You wouldn't carry your bank records, you wouldn't carry your medical records, you wouldn't carry things that are on your phone with you in person. At a border, they have the right to check whatever's in front of them. And that is in front of them. So what are they going to be looking through? I mean, is it my social media posts? Is it the photos that I have on my phone? Is it the text messages? What is it that they're looking through?

If there's any suspicion that you're going to be working in the United States or staying longer, they might be looking for some evidence of that. But what we've seen of late across the United States, not so much at the Canadian border, but perhaps without everyone knowing it, it's happened. at the Canadian border, but perhaps without everyone knowing it, it's happened. If there's any issue with saying things potentially that are problematic to the administration, being part of protests, anything like that, that would be justification for you not to be admitted to the United States as you might be a threat to their foreign policy and their, or their security. It's a big deal to get a second phone.

I mean, that's a lot of money to have a second phone. That is true. Well, there's other options. They're not allowed to go past what's actually on the phone. So technically if it's in the cloud and not accessible while you're on an airplane mode, technically they're not allowed to look at it.

And so that should be, uh, that should be one solution. How common is it that people, I mean, we were talking about, about were talking about school boards not heading to the United States. The Canadian Association of University Teachers is warning academics against non-essential travel to the US, especially those who have expressed negative views of the Trump administration in public. Is it common for you to be turned away because of something that you said on Instagram?

I think those are the things that make the media. So it seems more common. It's the, you know, this sort of reverberation, the waves of hearing it. One thing I think is really important to understand is that we are on the Canadian border and we have had a wonderful history with the United States and relationship. And as a result of that, it's not like landing in Texas. It's not like landing in Louisiana. It's a whole other cohort. And the folks who are on the border in Canada live in Canada, their kids go to school in Canada, they go to pubs in Canada. They're part of our milieu. They're reading our media, potentially listening to the current. So that creates a very different orientation than the media that's down in the United States.

And so it is less likely, I believe, for Canadians to have problems, but I don't think we should be so naive as to think we're obviated from it. There are people who have suggested the Canadian government issue a travel advisory to the United States right now. Do you think something like that is necessary? Well, they did give one, as you mentioned earlier. Updating guidance, but not saying, you know, big red flags and are you thinking about going to the United States?

So that's a really interesting question. And the reason it's an interesting question is, you know, they have one, for example, for the Ukraine. There's a war on. We're not there, obviously, with the United States. But travel advisories, I think, are political. And we're negotiating a tariff agreement. And I'm not sure it would be such a smart move while negotiating or maybe it would to make that kind of statement.

I mean, the question is whether or not there's a risk, but there's a secondary underlying issue that I think should be understood. I have to let you go, but would you be comfortable traveling to the United States? Are there things you would think about before you got to the border? Well, I'm an immigration lawyer and on the White House letterhead, they wrote that they are looking to ensure that they, we adhere to the law and uphold it and the justice department's going to go after us.

So there's been a little chilling effect for, for people in my position. Heather, thank you very much. Thank you. Heather Siegel is a founding partner of Siegel immigration law in Toronto. She was with me in our Toronto studio. Hey there, I'm David Common.

If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you Toronto shoes with me in our Toronto studio. Whether you listen on a run through your neighborhood or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto, wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of people's fear about the border is centered on one thing. We're just talking about it, the phone. Last month, a French scientist was denied entry to the US after a border guard found texts on that phone criticizing US President Donald Trump. Immigration lawyers in the United States say more visitors are having their social media and electronic devices checked at ports of entry. Ron Debert is founder of the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. Ron, good morning. Good morning, Nat. How are you? I'm well, thanks.

You have crossed the border frequently. How do you feel about crossing the border now? Well, I mean, as your previous guest, Heather, said, there have always been broad authorities for customs agents, and it's not just the US, it's in any country. They have authority to inspect your devices without anything like a warrant or probable cause. And so for years frankly I and my colleagues at the Citizen Lab have had pretty rigorous protocols around how to handle our device security when crossing the border. But of course now there's a new sheriff

in town and they have a pretty aggressive border control policy going on. A lot of it is, it's not clear what exactly they're going to do or capable of doing. And I would add that they've poured hundreds of millions of dollars into new algorithmic surveillance technology from companies like Palantir and others are inspecting social media platforms. So the risk is far more acute now, I would say, especially for high risk type people. And I would include myself in that category.

For people in that category, I think it's very prudent to have a set of protocols before you enter any preclearance area. So let's talk about those protocols. If you are concerned, what should you do with your devices before, even before you get to the border? Mm-hmm. Well, I think that depends on your own risk assessment.

And this is the most important thing. I think before anyone crosses that border, they should do a little evaluation. What type of data do I have on my phone? Is it important to me to protect that data? So for some people, it might be slightly less of a concern. I don't think there's zero concern for anyone. If you're the type of person that says, look, I have nothing to hide. You might want to ask yourself, is that really true? Or would you be comfortable handing over all of your data, all of your passwords to a US authority?

And then there are people in high-risk categories, and there's a wide spectrum of who would fall into that category. And I think if you're in that category, it's most important, I think, to minimize as much as possible the data that you're taking with you. So does that mean wiping your device? Does that mean taking a burner phone? It could be. It could be. If you want to protect yourself in the maximum way possible, you

might go out and buy a prepaid phone and a SIM card and it could be an old flip phone and there's some inconvenience to that. Of course there is a concern that that might raise further suspicions but I think here it's important to have a couple of things in mind. One is it's never never a good idea to lie to a customs agent. And, you know, you don't want to go into that situation spontaneously. So I think it's important to have a protocol in place. And here it might be useful to have your organization or your company have a policy. And that way,

when you go into that situation and say you have a prepaid phone you can honestly answer, well this is my company's policy, this is my organization's policy, we're not supposed to put our data at risk. And that's an honest answer then and it may prevent them from asking further questions. I just wonder if somebody's, I mean it's not corporate business, if someone's just going down to Vegas for the weekend, and the customs agent, the border agent says, can I see your phone? Can you say no?

Well, you could say no, but depending on where you are, that could result in detainment, further questioning, all sorts of things like that, and they could turn you away away and then prevent you from traveling to the United States again for a period of time, maybe years. So it's a risk that you have to take, which is why you shouldn't go into that situation without

thinking through what your answer to that question would be. And then if you're not going to have a prepaid phone, if you don't want to have that type of inconvenience, but there is data on your phone that you're concerned about, you could back up your data prior to leaving and then take some time once you cross the border and reinstall everything. At the very least, I would recommend people print out their boarding passes and power down their phone.

That is a precaution you can take to just prevent casual inspection of your device. But the fact of the matter is now these agencies have access to really powerful surveillance equipment. Sometimes it's on site. And if they take your phone, they can plug it in and those systems can crack whatever encryption is on your phone, vacuum up all of the data, including all of your credentials. What about passwords?

And I mean, so many of our phones now have, you know, you just put it up to your face and that unlocks the phone. Do we have to, if they ask for your phone, do you have to give the password? Do you have to put it up to your face to open it up or what is the protocol there? Well, again, it depends. It's really a no-win situation. If you comply, if you, you know, they can ask for your password. They have that written right on the website of the Customs and Border Patrol. If you comply, well, then they have access to all of your passwords, which gives them access to all

of your data. If you say, no, I don't want to do that, well, then you're in for a whole series of other questions and possible detainment, or maybe you'll be turned away and not allowed into the country. Here again, it's important to have a plan in place. It's much better if you can go into that situation and say, well, here's my device, there's nothing on it. And that's because I have a policy, I'm following a protocol of my company or organization, and we take precautions against the handling of data. In my case, there are research ethics protocols

at the University of Toronto that require me to protect human subject data. And so it's a very honest answer for me when I'm crossing any border to say that I am following my university's protocol and making sure that I'm not, I'm handling that data in a particular way, which means when I cross a border, I don't have access to that data. I have to let you go, but you've raised something

earlier that I want to come back to just very briefly, which is what would you say to somebody who says, you know, I have nothing to hide. It's just my phone. There's nothing on there. And I don't need to be worried about this. I'm just going down to Buffalo from, from, you know, Ontario to, to, you know, buy eat chicken

wings or something. What would you say to people who say they have nothing to hide? There's nothing on the phone that would concern them. Well, a couple of things. One is, is that really true if you reflect on your own situation and think about what's genuinely accessible through your device?

Probably most people would have second thoughts about that. And that's everything from data in the cloud to text messages, to what we've posted on social media, all of that. Correct. Yeah. And all of the people that you've communicated with, you're not putting your own, just your own data at risk, you're putting all of those people's data at risk. The other thing is the current political situation in the United States

is very uncertain. You know many of us myself included are remarking on the dissent into authoritarianism so there's an arbitrariness I think to the exercise of power that is happening here and And a lot of, you know, otherwise innocent people can be caught up in a dragnet. And there's extraordinary algorithmic surveillance technology that they're putting a lot of money into now. So I think it's just prudent to use this as an opportunity to have people reflect on their own digital footprint

and try to reduce it as much as possible in all circumstances. use this as an opportunity to have people reflect on their own digital footprint and try to reduce it as much as possible in all circumstances, but especially if you're thinking about crossing into the US border. Ron, it's great to talk to you as always. Thank you very much. Thank you, Matt. Ron Debert is director of the Citizen Lab at the University of Toronto. His latest book is Chasing Shadows, Cyber Espionage, Subversion and the Global Fight

for Democracy. You can hear more about travel to the United States coming up today on Frontburner. Jamie Poisson speaking with the Travel Reporter for the Washington Post about why tourism is down in the United States right now. It's not just from Canada, from all over the world or many places in the world. Fewer people are heading to the US. You can find that on Frontburner, wherever you get your podcasts.