The Current - You're ordinary. Get over it. You just might enjoy it

Episode Date: June 26, 2026

We push ourselves to optimize our careers, our health and our relationships. But we can't all be the best. So why do we struggle to accept that we're ordinary? The New Yorker staff writer Joshua Rothman and author and broadcaster Amil Niazi have each wrestled with that question. Their advice? Accepting mediocrity might be the best choice you ever make.

I am an actor, fresh out of theater school with big dreams and an even bigger drug habit. But things are pretty good. That is until my best friend is set up on a date with David Lee Roth. Yeah, from Van Halen. If you know, you know. From CBC's personally, this is Discount Dave and the Fix. The true-ish story about how a fake rock star led me to a real trial that held up a mirror to me. And okay, let's just say that not everyone in this story is who you think they are.

Personally, discount Dave and the Fix. Available now on CBC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. You know, sometimes it feels as though we are measuring every aspect of our lives these days. How many steps did you get? How many likes did your posts get? Did you get an A plus on that paper, score a goal, get a promotion, high sleep score?

we are supposed to be optimizing everything. There is this concept of maxing these days, money maxing, sleep maxing, fiber maxing. We live in this culture that prizes excellence, but we can't all be the best. It is statistically impossible. Most of us are just ordinary, mediocre. And for many of us, that's hard to accept. But maybe we should learn to embrace an ordinary life. And what does that actually mean to be ordinary? Well, Joshua Rothman and Emil Niazzi have both been thinking about this. Joshua recently wrote a piece for the New Yorker with the headline, Why is it so hard to be ordinary? He is on Long Island in New York.

And Emil wrote a viral column for the cut a few years ago called Losing My Ambition. She has since expanded that into a book called Life After Ambition, a good enough memoir, and she is in Toronto. Good morning to you both. Good morning, Matt. Hi. Joshua, you begin your piece. Talking about a sign that was your son's Little League softball game, tell me about the sign and how that got you thinking about ordinariness it was such a great sign my my son is seven going on eight and so this is very little little league and um at the ballpark one day there was a new sign that appeared and it said remember if these are kids this is just a game no scholarships will be awarded today and um it's interesting just watching kids playing sports because they have such a wide variety of expectations about their own

performance. And, you know, some kids are happy being regular. Other kids are like bitterly disappointed when they're not, you know, being incredible athletes all the time. And it just makes you think about what's better. You know, what's the desirable way to approach life? Because, of course, like also the parents get all involved in having expectations about whether their kids are going to be extraordinary or, you know, quote unquote, merely ordinary. So I guess that got me thinking, you know, among other things about this subject. Where does that show up in our lives? Because in the piece in the New Yorker, you write, society as a whole is shaped by the relentless pursuit of excellence in every domain, that there isn't room left in some ways for a two-star experience. So where does that show up? Well, there's like an element of this that's about consumerism and, you know, everything has to get bigger and better and cooler and fancier and more capable every year. But it's also just a social fact about competition and it's an economic fact about how income is distributed across, um,

You know, the CEO makes a lot more money than the regular employee. And then I think what interested me in particular was that there's a kind of existential aspect to it too. It's like it's not just that we're rewarded for being extraordinary, but maybe that we've internalized that very deeply. And so inside ourselves, we come to think that, you know, unless we're the best, we're worthless. So there's this real challenge of figuring out, you know, how to really believe. even the value of being regular, you know, without giving up on striving and trying to be better. You know, it's in all areas, but it's that internal space that I feel is like somehow the most troubling. That's what you nailed, Emil, in that piece that you wrote for the cut that went all over the world.

The opening line was, I have abandoned the notion of ambition to chase the absolute middle of the road, mediocrity. I just want to be man. And the new dream is simply no goals, just vibes. What happened to you that led you to have that sort of reckoning? You know, it was a building for a long time, but I remember having a conversation. I was a new mom relatively. I think my son was about a year old. And I was at drinks with another mom. And we were chatting about just how we weren't, you know, getting farther ahead at work.

And we were getting older. And what did it all mean? And I finally sort of turned to her. I had like an aha moment. And I said, well, what's so. wrong about mediocrity. And she gave me this withering look, like, how dare I? But it just was a life-balled moment. I was like, the things that are bringing me true joy, spending time with my son, a crisp glass of white wine, a good meal, you know, a good movie, none of those things

are achieved by excellence and striving. It's really about finding joy within myself. And so that sort of pointed, provocative question turned into a lifestyle choice, I guess. But you also, you grew up, if you were in about this, you grew up with a lot of ambition, right? I did, yes. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's kind of the classic story. My family immigrated here when I was very young. We didn't have a lot of money. And the only way to kind of get out of my situation to have more and be more was to be incredibly ambitious. And I feel that I clawed my way to the middle and then kind of had this moment where I realized I didn't, I didn't actually want to get further. And that's scary, I think, for an immigrant daughter to say,

for the eldest immigrant daughter to say, I don't want to achieve any more than I have. But yes, ambition was very, very important to me early on in my life. What is scary about that, do you think? The story of immigration is a tale of sacrifice and your parents sacrifice something to get you a better life. And so you better pay that back by achieving excellence. And to sort of abandon that is abandoning those beliefs. It's in a way sort of turning your back on your parents' sacrifice. It takes a lot, I think, anyone can relate to this, who knows that story, to then say, no, I don't want more. Joshua, you write in the piece about this idea of greatness culture,

greatness thinking. What is that? So there's a philosopher named Avram Alpert, who has a really nice book called The Good Enough Life. And his theory in this book is that we live in immersed in greatness culture, which is basically that we just think the point of everything is greatness. So he gives us an example that, you know, when we think about how desirable it would be to lift people out of poverty, a lot of the times the way that we talk about that is we're like, there could be like Einstein's and Mozart's and Shakespeare's who've never been able to achieve greatness because they've been trapped in poverty. We don't say, well, what about all those

totally ordinary people who should live better lives? But also, like, in how we relate to our relationships, for example, like he has a really nice little discussion about being best friends. We put a lot of pressure on things. We want to be best friends with the best people and have the best possible types of friendships. And anything that's less than the best feels like falling short. But the alternative to greatness culture, doesn't mean giving up. It actually might mean making sure that our lives are good enough

and that everybody's life is good enough. And that's actually hard to do. It's not easy. Maybe sometimes it's actually easier to think in more kind of stark terms about like I want to be great, I want to be the best. Instead of thinking more, which you probably won't be,

right, instead of thinking more like how can I be good enough and how can I help other people also feel that their lives are good enough? and how can my efforts dovetail with their efforts? You know, not at mediocrity. Somehow that word mediocre always sounds like judgmental to my ears. But, you know, just at ordinarily at good enoughness, which is actually kind of a high standard, you know?

Does good enough create greatness, though? I mean, don't you, you can imagine people saying, we need greatness because that's going to be how we solve, you know, terrible problems, wicked problems, that you cure cancer, that you are the superstar, our athletes, that you're the brilliant artist, or what have you, that that requires greatness. And good enough isn't going to get you there in some ways.

Yeah, I think that's a totally valid thing to say. I think what I took away from thinking about this and reading is just, you know, we all have different domains of our lives. And there's some domains in which, like, maybe we do want to try to be great by whatever measure we want to use. But it's so easy to slip into a mindset where you apply that way of thinking everywhere, like all over your life, which is just a recipe for unhappiness and dissatisfaction and despair, basically.

And there are so many forces driving us to think that way in every way, like all the time, and not to prioritize and think about how, like, in some areas we might want to try to be very special. But in other areas, we actually, like, fitting in is a virtue. And, like, finding ways of connecting over that with other people who are also fitting in and being ordinary together can be really important. Emile, and it's not just a focus on the parenting piece, but because you mentioned that as one of the catalysts in this, how does that obsession with greatness, greatness culture, turn up in parenting? And how can that be corrosive in parenting? Yeah, I mean, I see it as early as preschool. You have parents trying to figure out what piano classes and sports teams to sign their kids up for. Should they be in French immersion? What is it going to give them in their future life and how much can you control? and establish early on for them so that they can be great,

so that they can be the greatest preschool or the greatest kindergartner, the greatest grade one. And it puts a lot of pressure on these kids from a very young age. It puts a lot of pressure on you as the parent to make sure that, you know, your classes are booked, that you're making sure that you're doing the best for them at every turn. Are they eating the best food? Are they, you know, wearing the best clothes?

And as Josh mentioned, that that is very exhausting. It's very damaging. And no child can ever live up to that pressure to be so great when they should be focusing on like having a good time and playing with their friends and getting skin knees and and tans in the summer. And so I think it takes away from what builds like a loving and special relationship between a parent and a child and takes away from what you should really be doing, which is just enjoying each other. We'll be right back with more of the current podcast. out of theater school with big dreams and an even bigger drug habit. But things are pretty good. That is until my best friend is set up on a date with David Lee Roth.

Yeah, from Van Halen. If you know, you know. From CBC's personally, this is Discount Dave and the Fix. The true-ish story about how a fake rock star led me to a real trial that held up a mirror to me. And okay, let's just say that not everyone in this story is who you think they are. Personally, Discount Dave and the Fix. available now on CBC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you worry about that later in life as well?

We're in the middle of graduation season or towards the end of graduation season now. And you have all these grads who, they're booing the speakers because the speakers are talking about how AI is coming. And what they hear is that AI is going to ruin their lives. It's going to take their jobs. They're going to have to become flexible and bendy so that they can do a bunch of different things or else they're going to be replaced by a robot.

And that requires them to be great in some ways. where maybe they're just graduating and they're trying to figure things out. I think they're just graduating and trying to figure things out. I mean, there's so much pressure on kids these days. I was listening to a piece on, I think it was on the current about grade inflation and how kids today have to get, you know, 4.0 and above just to get into university. And my God, how many people does that eliminate from post-secondary education and how awful to have to think about your entire childhood being just a litmus test for, you know,

how good you can be later on. And I think their booing is more a result of that same pressure that capitalism puts on people to think about how much money they can earn from the very first moment and not, well, what's life as an adult going to look like? Who am I going to meet? What kind of person am I going to be? And I see the turn away from exceptionalism as actually very freeing. I was going to be great. What do you get back? What do you get back if you drop that ambition and that artifice? You can get back everything. I think of that Steinbeck quote about how socialism could never take hold in America because the poor don't see themselves as an exploited underclass. They see themselves as embarrassed millionaires. And I think we've put all this pressure on people to see themselves as temporarily embarrassed perfect athletes or Elon Musk's. And really, we're just human beings and the things that bring us joy are really like community, connection, culture, and those. things are not achieved by being great. So I think you get back the sense of freedom that is really necessary in order to have a good enough life. But that's hard. And it's not just about parental

expectations. That's hard in a society where social media just demands that we live this performative life as well. And so how do you go about saying, I'm just going to be ordinary? Well, I don't see myself as truly ordinary. But honestly, Matt, a big part of my like journey to this has been unfollowing every single account that positioned a life that felt like it was greater than mine to have this like moment with myself of like what is really important to and and really where are you trying to get to and how much of of this desire to be someone else is just a reflection of this performance and and so I had to unfollow so many accounts. I had to touch some grass.

And that's what I'm trying to do for my kids as well, because I know, like you say, yes, sure, at home in the bubble of your family life, you can say and do whatever you want. But as soon as they get out into the world, it is about desire and wanting to have the best and the most. And I really just try and reinforce the sense that, like, you are good enough as you are. And if you want more, then, yeah, you can work hard to get it. But don't let that get in the way of caring for yourself. and loving yourself. And that's corny and it's cliche,

but I think it's cliche for a reason. The best you can is good enough is what we used to say in our house. Yeah, I love that, exactly. Joshua, what is the good enough life for you? What does that look like? I think for me, I mean, I agree with everything you just said to me, but I think for me,

I've come at it through sort of like vulnerability as the way into this, that you can recognize that there are some ways in which you are doing great and maybe you're doing better than you hoped. But there are other ways in which you are just regular or maybe even less than regular. And like speaking personally, just taking account of the ways in which you need help.

And then that opens you to seeing how you can help other people. I think focusing on that side of life, it helps you, when you are searching for achievement and excellence and pushing yourself, it helps you do that in a healthy way, where you're understanding that, you know, where you are trying to be better than you were before and you're trying to be the best. because I think that's also a natural part of our identities is to try to be the best of things. Where we are trying to do that, that we're doing that against a backdrop

that feels grounded and real and also true to who we actually are in the whole, which is ordinary people trying to do good things. So I've approached it like that, and I think living in a family, I live in a small town, it's really evident how we need each other because we have all very similar types of needs and troubles, which, you know, if we were trillionaires,

we could concoct universes in which we depend on no one in theory, or we could tell ourselves that. But in real life, just thinking about how much you need other people and how they need you is a really helpful way of sort of centering ordinary life and its value. And is there something that you get back from that when you are able to just understand, listen, I am just a normal person who might be trying to do extraordinary things, but this is who I am right now? Is there something that you get back when that pressure is kind of removed

or you remove that pressure? I've had sort of like complicated thoughts over the course of my life about what the point of it all is and whether I'm going to do anything worth doing or that adds up to anything. I think starting to see life as a more, you know, complicated and like variable tapestry of different things where in some areas you are doing something great

in other areas you're just doing your best is helpful in making sense of the whole arc of life because of course time passes and opportunities appear and then they disappear and projects start and then some of them finish, you know, beautifully and some of them peter out. And I think it's really helped me just roll with it a little more and be happier. Amel, what does that look like for you in your life, a good enough life? Because in addition to thinking about this, I mean, you're doing ambitious things, you're writing books.

Those are things that a lot of people couldn't possibly achieve in some ways. So how do you see what good enough looks like in your life? Yes, that is the rub, isn't it, that I wrote a book about it. And that was actually quite the ambitious project. I guess for me, yeah, it does boil down to, like Joshua said, when you think about why are we here, what makes a good life? And if the comet was coming tomorrow and I only had 24 hours left, am I clinging to my book, to my medals, or am I turning to my loved ones? Am I spending time with them? am I eating the best meal I can possibly imagine and just really remembering the very simple moments

of life and taking pleasure that I was able to experience those. And that's really what it comes down to. All of my favorite writers, all of my favorite thinkers, all of the most exceptional people in the world that I've ever looked to think about how I could, you know, be a person. They often write about the end of their lives and what they're thinking about. They say very, very similar things. And so I'm just grateful that I had that realization while my kids are still young, while I still have an able body and can get out there and really, you know, enjoy the world around me. And that to me is a good enough life. And I think it's actually pretty damn good. What would you say just finally to if young people are trying to figure this out and often they're ahead of where you think they might be in that conversation.

But what would you say to them about what they could be thinking about when they're charting out a path ahead? And they wonder if it's okay to be ordinary. I would tell them fail. Try everything. Fail, accept failure as something that is beautiful and wonderful and actually can light the way forward for you. And take that pressure off yourself and don't be afraid to really figure out who you are and in the process fall down quite a bit. And take it easy on yourself because I think we put way too much pressure on young people today. And my parents have put pressure on me, but not that, not clearly, not.

Not that much because here I am an ordinary woman. But yes, I would say take it easy on yourself because life is all about failing and getting back up. Joshua, I mean, again, it goes back to that sign in some ways, right? And that this is a game that your kid was playing. It's not the World Series. There is no instant replay. The refs aren't being paid, what have you? What would you say to these young people are trying to figure this out?

I often think about that thing speakers sometimes do, you know, look to your left, look to your right. one of you is going to be such and such a CEO or whatever. I guess the way I think about it is, you know, it's just a really big part of life to strive to try to be great. That's normal and good. You know, we wouldn't be where we are as a society if we weren't trying all the time and we have to keep trying to keep things from getting worse.

But at the same time, I think it's really important to look to your left, look to your right, and realize how much you have in common with all the other people in the world, how similar we all are, and how ordinary we all are in so many respects and how that's good.

And we should start from a recognition of our commonality. And so what that means to me is, you know, as you move ahead in life, you know, find ways to be connected to the people around you instead of trying to distance yourself from the people around you and try to build that fabric of being connected and not only invest in being distinctive. This is really great, super helpful as well. And I'm glad to talk to you both about it. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. That was a beautiful conversation.

Joshua Rothman is a staff writer for The New Yorker magazine. He was on Long Island, New York, and Emil Niazzi was in Toronto, columnist for The Cut. Her memoir is Life After Ambition, a Good Enough memoir. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.