The Daily Beast Podcast - A Broken U.S. Healthcare System Doesn’t Make Murder OK

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

The reaction to the assassination of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson has led to some dark places. Plus! Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel unpacks the far reaching impacts of Donald Trump’s mass deportation plans. Then, Elad Nehorai joins us to talk about their recent piece, “The Deeper Reasons Democrats Lost.” Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What a great show we have for you today.

Michigan Attorney General Donna Nessel is here to unpack the far-reaching impacts of Trump's mass deportation plans and calls out the administration's troubling narratives and their appointments. Then, writer Elad Naharai joins us to talk about their recent piece for their stub stack, the deeper reasons Democrats lose. But first, let's have some fun. So Wednesday morning in Midtown Manhattan, the CEO of United Health Care, Brian Thompson, was shot and killed outside of the hotel where the annual shareholders conference was going on. And some things we know now are that the shell casings from the bullets that were used had words written on them. Apparently the words deny, defend, and depose, which sound a lot like the title of a book that was delayed, denied,

defend that was about why insurance and companies don't pay claims and what you can do about it. So the thing here is the reaction to what happened. And I'm not sure that really, I think outside of Henry Kissinger, I don't know that I've seen the kind of reactions that I saw online about this, murder. And some of it was really dark humor. Some of it was, I don't want to say, well, some of it was celebratory. And some of it was sort of like shrugging. Like it was not what you generally expect when you see a story about someone being gunned down in the middle of a city in broad daylight with people all around. And so we thought it was worth talking about what this says, what it says when the

slaying of a health insurance company CEO evokes the kinds of reactions it did. So Danielle, what did you make of this? For me, it was utterly dystopic in the feeling and vibe that was going around social media after the news broke. And, you know, to the points that you were making about the dark humor, about the shrugging, or about the celebrating, or about the celebrating. it's just not what you expect to see when somebody is murdered in broad daylight. And I think that it strikes a definite chord of the sentiments around health care in this country and the dismal space that health care is in. I mean, Obamacare allowed for there to be certain extensions. You're a young person, you're on your parents' health care until you're 26 years old. You're able to buy into

the marketplace if you are a solopreneur, entrepreneur, you know, self-employed at very still, very incredibly high premiums. We know that the financial burden of health care is probably number one reason why people go into debt in this country. And so there isn't anyone, honestly, unless you are Uber wealthy, that has not been touched in a bad way by America's health care system. And so knowing that and recognizing that we are one of the very few industrialized countries that do not have universal health care, that other countries look at America and they're just like, they don't understand what happens here. And what has happened is the greed, the unrelenting greed of healthcare companies like United,

that how much is it that they gross like $371.6 billion to deny people access to health care that they are paying for? And so, like, while I don't at all celebrate murder, death, and the like, I think it begs a large. question and discussion around our broken health care system and that while again Obamacare afforded 20 some odd billion people to be able to access health care and now we have a president-elect that is coming in that wants to now kick those people off of health care and completely do away with any government assistance whatsoever for health care. It's just, I don't know, it was dark. Yesterday, I mean, I looked through so many pages, whether it be in the music, industry, whether it be fashion, like everyone was talking about this. And it was not good.

It was not good. You know, someone on Twitter wrote, as someone covered under United Healthcare, I can completely understand the actions taken. Someone else asking, why are the police investigating this? Look, anytime someone dies, there's this thing, particularly online, where there are, when I say someone dies, I mean, I generally, I'm talking here about like some sort of political figure or powerful person along those lines. There's kind of a split between the people who react with either, again, dark humor or mockery or talk about how awful that person is. And then there's people who try to shame those people. And there was a little bit of the shaming going on, but nowhere near what there usually is. And there was a lot more of the other thing. And yeah, Danielle, I think it's

absolutely right. And what you're saying is that it is in a certain sense, it's sort of a pent-up reaction to the health care system in this country and to the fact that people have realized just how bad it is here in America. And I mean, don't even get me started if you talk to someone from Canada about their health care. And you try to explain to them how things work here and they just look at you like you're from an exoplanet in the Andromeda Galaxy. Like, it's just, it's completely unfathomable to them that it works the way. it does here. And I think that we've been bombarded from politicians with American exceptionalism and we do things right and all these other countries. Europe does them wrong and Canada does them

wrong. And it feels like at least when it comes to health care, I think people are waking up to the notion that that isn't true and probably has never been true. And I know I've been saying for years that if you've had to deal with our health care system in any kind of, of either, I would say, medium or big way, and it didn't radicalize you. There's something wrong with you. Yeah. Because it is truly a nightmare. And the amount of money I pay a month for healthcare is, I think, more than people in some parts of the country pay for a month for rent. Yep. Yep. And it is just insane. But even with that, you are constantly jumping through hoops. You are constantly trying to get things covered or getting things.

denied or being told that, oh, well, we need the doctor to explain this or, you know, for prior authorization. It's a goddamn nightmare. And my mind is pretty much there. And I'm not elderly. And the idea that it's difficult for me to navigate this thing. And then you start thinking about people who are elderly and who maybe do not have the full capacities that they once had mentally. And you just think, my God, and those are the people who need this the most. And you think, my God, they do everything in their power to make it difficult to get care. So, yeah, I really do think a lot of the reactions that we've been seeing over the last few days to this, I don't really think anyone's, I don't want to say anyone.

I think there are some people who were legitimately condoning what happened. I think the vast majority of people were not condoning and we're not saying it's okay to pull a targeted hit on someone in the middle of Midtown Manhattan or any other city, particularly where there's a ton of other people around who might get hurt, that's not an okay thing to do. And it was kind of like the Chris Rock joke with a punch I was, you know, but I understand it. And that's, I think, was what a lot of people were kind of releasing over the last few days. We're living in a wild time. We're living in a really wild time. And that breaking news on Wednesday was just a testament to that. Nothing, obviously, says wild time more than Donald Trump's parade of appointments, namely one of them,

which he's not even the worst. Let's just be honest. But Cash Patel is, I don't know why this man thinks the way that he does, but he is Donald Trump's pick to head up the FBI. And what we can say about the FBI, and I have said since this announcement, is that the FBI is not a good organization and it does not have a good history. And, you know, particularly if you are a black person that lives in the United States, you know very well what the FBI has done over the decades to surveil, threaten, and investigate black liberation fighters, whether that be Fred Hampton, whether that be MLK, Malcolm X, the list goes on and on. And I mean, not to mention that the building is named after J. Edgar Hoover,

who, like, at his death in 1972, his entire legacy was tarnished by his weaponization of said department against who he deemed to be communists, which was namely a lot of people, anyone that was protesting the Vietnam War at that time. So I say all that to say that it hasn't been a good place. But bad things can always get worse. And that is definitely where Donald Trump is heading with this appointment of Cash Patel, who some of the things that this man believes are just straight out of the front page of the inquirer. And it's wild and it's crazy.

And what I see as the consistent theme with these appointments is that these people hate America and they hate Americans, and that they want to use our agencies and departments to investigate, interrogate, and potentially in prison Americans for doing nothing other than not agreeing with their ideology. But some of the things that Cash Patel believes are that China, according to Vox, China is funding the Democratic Party and sending military-aged males across the Mexican and Canadian border to prepare for a preemptive strike. Another piece, Barack Obama directs a, quote, shadow network, if only, that were the case. Number three, that Attorney General Merrick Garland wants to throw all of us, which is to say

Trump allies in prison, I wish that that had been the case. Those are just some of the things that this incoming FBI director who will have so much power over this country thinks. And I wish it was a joke, but it's not. This is where we are. Yeah. I mean, this is a guy who in his own book that came out, I think, last year, he had what could basically be described as a Nixonian enemies list.

And I mean, the people on that list were basically anyone who spoke up against or who said bad things about Donald Trump. I mean, Cassidy Hutchinson is on this list. If we remember her, she was the young woman who testified before the January 6th committee. Christopher Ray, who Donald Trump is apparently firing to replace him with Cash Patel as head of the FBI, is on that list. Bill Barr is on that. Like it's a whole bunch of former Trump people.

It's absolutely wild. But the idea that an FBI director has an enemy's list is, again, you have, have to, I think, go back to J. Edgar Hoover to at least where it was this blatant. You know, I don't want to say that after Hoover, the FBI kind of, you know, redeemed itself and was true to its sort of Boy Scout image. I really don't think that's the case. But it wasn't as blatant as Hoover. And now, you know, we live in a time, as you and I have said over and over again, where there is no more quiet part. And that's the time when someone like Cash Patel can have an actual enemies list and actually name the people who are on it.

And that's somehow okay for him to be the director of the FBI. It's absolutely unreal. And the sad thing or scary thing is, you know, when you said at the beginning, he's not the worst of the Trump nominees. I was like, well, wait a minute. And then I was like, no, you know you're right. He's probably not. The fact that he's as bad as he is and might not be.

the worst is just, I mean, look, that's the reality we're going to have to deal with for the next four years, but it's just, it's absolutely insane that that's where we are now. I like that you think it's just four years, but, you know. Well, yeah, fair point. Fair point. I'm trying to be optimistic, Daniel. Yeah, that's exactly what the new abnormal is about optimism. Exactly.

Exactly. And hope. That's my personal new abnormal. Wrong channel, Andy. That's my personal new abnormal is. being optimistic. I'm going to go edit the description. Folks, I am very happy to welcome to the new abnormal.

Michigan's 54th Attorney General, Dana Nessel. Attorney General, I want to start off today with getting your thoughts right now on, there's a lot of fear, I think, across the country with regard to the changing administration coming in, Donald Trump's administration coming in, particularly as it pertains to undocumented, to the undocumented population and mass deportation. Can you talk a bit about what your plans are in your state in Michigan to protect people, but also how this is going to conflict with the ability to pursue actual crime and to pursue Donald Trump's mass deportation plan. Right. Well, first of all, thanks for having me. You know, it's an important topic to discuss

and I will say this. I mean, unlike what Trump and many of the Republicans said in 2020, I mean, I fully concede. I supported Kamala Harris for president and she legitimately lost my state. Donald Trump won and he ran on a platform of deporting people who are. undocumented. So we should acknowledge that. But I think we also should look at what that is really going to mean for states like mine, right? So it's not just the economic impact that it's expected to have, because you're not going to have enough workers who are picking fruits and vegetables or who are working at, you know, slaughterhouses or places where, you know, we have a hard time finding other people to work for low wages in those places. And that it, it is,

likely to have a very significant economic impact. In fact, I've talked to people who are in the building industry who say that they are expecting to see fewer new homes built as a result of these new policies. But in addition to that, you know, there is a finite number of resources out there federally, right? So whether you're talking about the FBI or HSI Homeland Security, whether you're talking about the U.S. Marshals, these are agencies that do all. all kinds of different work. We partner with them on so many different things. We have projects

involving human trafficking cases and sexual assault cases, domestic terrorism, which I have a bad feeling is not going to be investigated by the federal authorities anymore. And so many other kinds of cases, the concern that I have is that they're going to be so focused on, you know, capturing and deporting undocumented people who, you know, again, it's not as though they have not committed any crime at all. Being in the country illegally is in and of itself, you know, a misdemeanor offense federally. But what other kinds of cases will we not be investigating as a result? And I have grave fears that you have some really dangerous individuals out there that are not going to be apprehended and potentially not going to be investigated or prosecuted at all because we're going

to be so focused on these very low-level offenders who, again, maybe in the country illegally, but it doesn't mean that they're out there committing other crimes. And we know statistically that actually undocumented people are less likely to commit violent crimes in large part because they don't want to be discovered and they don't want to have that be a reason that they get deported. And that's obviously very contrary to the many, many ads that we saw play out in my state and the many other swing states. But, you know, that was the rhetoric that, you know, undocumented people are dangerous. And technically, that's really not the case. They're less dangerous than people who are here legally for better or worse.

To that point, I also think that the larger crime narrative that Donald Trump and Republicans have had for quite some time, but definitely amped up during this presidential cycle, in general, just stating, you know, that there is crime everywhere, that cities are infested and overwhelmed with crime, when in fact, at least where I sit in New York City, crime has been down and has been going down nationally. Why do you think that we can't seem to kind of cut through that rhetoric? Well, I don't know. I think it's just so effective to scare people. and to otherwise people and to say, hey, you know, if you are not your typical Caucasian, American-born

individual, that there must be something dangerous or scary about you. And what's scarier than to highlight those cases around the country where an undocumented person has committed a violent crime, even if those cases occur in very low numbers, you know, it's a way obviously to make people. afraid of people that are different than themselves. But what you say is very true. And we see that in Michigan and we see it across the country that violent crime is on the decrease.

And we have lower numbers of homicides and armed robberies and carjackings. And some of our most dangerous types of crime significantly lower than it's been in the past. And yet you would never know that if you're listening to the Trump campaign or if you were watching television during the course of the campaign anywhere in my state. Can you talk about some of the places? Because I think that fear is part of the point in terms of the ratcheting up of this type of rhetoric and the consistent conversation around mass deportations and it starting on day one on January 20th. Because one of the things that I think people find most concerning is that we have sanctuary cities. We have sanctuary places like

churches and synagogues and mosques. We have hospitals where people are not to be taken away from, where ICE and others don't enter into, again, as sanctuary places. What do those policies and laws mean? And do they still carry weight in this effort for mass deportation? Well, I think here's the problem, right? You can have a city where the policy of the local police, for instance, is, you know, look, we're not going to get involved in arresting people or detaining people and using our finite resources in order to conduct that kind of work when we have so many more dangerous types of activities that we need to make sure that we're keeping a careful watch on or we're investigating or we're prosecuting or we're showing up when we get those 911 calls.

So there are a lot of places where, you know, cities have said that. Like if you have not committed some other crime that we're not going to get involved and we're not going to assist federal authorities in apprehending and detaining people. But the problem with that is what the new Trump administration has threatened to do is to say, okay, fine, we can't make you cooperate with us. But if you refuse to do so, we're going to cut off very, very essential federal funding for all kinds of things that local law enforcement relies upon. And remember, I mean, a significant amount of money. that goes to local police authorities and state authorities comes from the federal government. And if you just look even at our office, right, the Michigan Department of Attorney General, we receive an enormous amount of funding federally.

And, you know, so much so that it's going to be very difficult for our department to operate if suddenly those funds were to be cut off. And, I mean, you can go division through division through division, whether you're talking about health care fraud, whether you're talking about our sexual assault unit, whether you're talking about some of the work that we do with the National Labor Relations Board or even battling invasive species with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. I mean, really, the list goes on and on. We have a major human trafficking case that we're investigating right now that involves countless people that are being sex trafficked.

There's no way that we could continue on in these really important operations. operations if it was not for federal funding and if it was not for our great partnerships with the federal government. But if, you know, you have the local authorities that we work with here, if you have the Michigan State Police, if you have special agents from my department say, hey, listen, we're busy, man. We got a lot of stuff going on. We don't have time to assist you in the process of deporting people who have committed a misdemeanor because we are dealing with people who have committed, you know, life offense cases where people are being killed or raped or, you know, some pretty serious stuff that the federal government can just turn around and say, well,

we're going to cut off all your federal resources then. And we're going to sever our ties with your office. And we're not going to engage in these federal partnerships that benefit everybody. That is a legitimate concern. It sounds that in this situation, the Trump administration will have the upper hand. And that regardless of what laws may be on the books in blue states, that they will have to, at some point, bend to the will of Donald Trump if, in fact, a large amount of federal funding is received through, you know, through law enforcement agencies. And so what does it look like then to create credible resistance pushback in protection of undocumented workers that all. are in a lot of places, including New York City where I am, Michigan, where you are, are the lifeblood for those spaces?

Well, you know, if people don't care about the humanitarian considerations here, and unfortunately, it seems to me many people don't, I think they will care when it hits them in the pocketbook. And, you know, the narrative that's been out there is that, well, Trump won because people were most focused on the price of eggs. We keep on hearing that over and over again. Well, if you have a situation where because of these mass deportations, it's not just that money is diverted away from other federal programming that people care deeply about and is diverted towards this effort. But in the process, if the price of goods and services increases dramatically, which it's expected to, and then on top of that, of course, you have the threat of tariffs with, you know, countries like, Mexico and Canada and in China and other countries.

If you're saying it really hit people in their pocketbooks. I don't know if the Trump administration is going to be able to be successful in continuing that because there's going to be a public outcry. And I think you're going to have a situation where Republican officials, whether they're U.S. senators or congressional representatives or governors or what have you, are, are going to say, like, this is really hurting our state. And also, this is not going to be good for us in 26, you know, when we have, you know, not just, of course, federal elections, state elections, local elections. And there may be pressure that is applied to the Trump administration as a result of that.

And I think that's what we're going to expect to see. I want to switch gears a bit with just a few minutes that we have left. I'm staying obviously on this incoming administration. But I do want to touch upon Some of these appointments that have been announced by Donald Trump are causing alarms to go off, particularly those of people who have been investigated for sexual assault, who have credible police reports that have been filed with regard to sexual assault. I just want to get your thoughts on as a law enforcement officer what that means, what that signals to the public. when you have people that are being tapped for very high positions in our government who have records and investigations into their conduct. So this has been really tough for me to watch. I started off my career as an assistant prosecutor in Wayne County,

which is where Detroit is located. And, you know, I handled sexual assault cases, domestic violence cases, child abuse cases. Most of my career has been dedicated to that in some way, shape, or form. And we've really prioritized that here at the Michigan Department of Attorney General, whether you're talking about the Larry Nasser cases that came from the office in the Michigan State University investigation. We did one of the most wide-ranging clergy abuse investigations, where we investigated all seven diocese in the state of Michigan and investigated hundreds and hundreds of cold case sexual assault. And now we have a thriving program called Operation Survivor Justice, where

we look for people who have fled the state who have been charged with sexual assault cases. And so it's really been a priority of mine because I see how sexual assault impacts victims and survivors and the devastating effects that it can have on a person for literally the rest of their lives. And so to see people being nominated for, elevated to some of the highest offices in the land who, again, have these credible accusations made against them, that should be completely disqualifying. You know, it just seems such a devastating message to people who have been victimized. And it really says, hey, sexual assault is no big deal anymore. And it doesn't matter that you've been, again,

and incredibly accused of sexual assault. You know, it's no barrier to you holding these very, very significant offices. And it's also, I think, a signal to everyone who would serve beneath these individuals in some capacity and these giant bureaucratic structures that, you know, sexual assault or sexual harassment, you know, it's just not going to be treated very seriously. We don't care about it because look who the head of the agency is. It's really upsetting. It's really disturbing.

It sends a terrible message, not just to, of course, workers, but to, you know, law enforcement, to those of us who are charged with investigating and prosecuting these cases, that they're no big deal. To judges, to jurors who have to make fact-based decisions about these types of offenses, I mean, these cases need to be treated very seriously and having those kinds of credible accusations against you, which I should remind people like most people have not been credibly accused of sexual assault. So to see person after person after person nominated by the president-elect, I almost think he just wants to find people, you know, who reflect his values. He really doesn't value sexual assault survivors. He's got

no use for them and he doesn't really think anything negative of people who commit those sorts of crimes or engage in that sort of behavior because we know that that's the kind of behavior that Donald Trump has himself engaged in. And it's, I think it's sad on a number of different levels. And it takes us back so many, not just years, but decades in the progress that we've made to ensure that these crimes are taken very seriously. And that victims who make complaints about these crimes are believed by law enforcement. Yeah. I mean, it's, honestly, it is extraordinary. And I'm just, I'm very appreciative, Attorney General, the work that you do, for your state and the work that is ahead.

It is, we're living in extraordinary times and we need people like you on the front lines. So I just want to thank you for making time for the new abnormal and for the work that you're doing and for the work that you'll do ahead. Appreciate you. Thanks so much for having me. My next guest is the author of a piece called The Deeper Reasons Democrats Lost. And he says that we can't have the usual debates around why Trump won because the usual debates are what led us here. Elad Nehorai is a writer who specializes in anti-extremism and anti-Semitism, and he also runs a marketing agency called Justice Marketing. He joins me now. Elad, thank you

so much for being here. Thanks for having me. So maybe start by explaining what the usual debates are that you say we can't have anymore before we even get into what you think we do need to be talking about. The biggest thing is that when you read punditry and you read perspectives on politics. I think almost always it tends to be talking about very recent things. So, for example, in the campaign, you know, it's what decisions did Harris make that were right or wrong, or how is, you know, the electorate feeling, you know, in the very recent past. And so number one, I think the time frame is more focused on the way people consume news as opposed to any deeper analysis. I think also there is a lot of kind of, there's very common talking

points, there's things that people kind of jump on almost as memes in the sense of like agreeing that, okay, this is the discourse we're going to have. It's going to be around, you know, very specific items that we've all kind of agreed on are the most relevant, whether it's like the economy or race relations and all these things are, of course, relevant. So I don't mean to downplay them. But the thing is that people, when we're talking about such complex and difficult things as a fascist coming into power, there's no way to talk about it in like a normal punditry or news, a way that would properly capture that. And think about when we reflect on past fascist governments, we don't say, oh, well, you know, there was inflation, and so a fascist came into

power. It's not that simple. And when you have kind of that historical context, you start to understand how complex and how difficult these subjects are. We can, even though we're in the present moment, not looking backwards in a historical way, we have learned enough, I think, to be able to examine things with kind of that broad. broader and more analytical mindset if we want to. You say the big story of the election wasn't really about the people who voted for Trump. It was about the people who simply didn't vote. And you get into that. And what you write about is sort of like this, I guess this bigger issue, this sort of umbrella that all those things like, you know, the price of eggs has gone up, et cetera, et cetera,

that those are just really symptoms of what you call existential dread and that that's really what this is about. Am I reading that correctly? Yeah, I think existential. Dread is one of the three things I list there. The others are lack of accountability was another one. Yeah. And so I think the reason I listed those was because, you know, it's when we're thinking of someone going through their day, making a decision around something so big or not making a decision, what the people are going through are, yes, the price of eggs, but what they're also going through is thinking about what happens if I can't pay rent this month. So I think all those larger topics are really all going on in people's minds. And talk about how the COVID lockdowns and then transitioning

into the post-lockdown era, how that affected the American mindset and how that ties in with sort of your existential thread portion of your list. Right. So the reason I brought up the COVID restriction aspect is that I think people have been shared a lot of like preconceived notions that just in general around American politics and American life that are starting to break down. And one of the big ones was that during COVID, we were given a lot of things that we generally are not given as a population. We're given basic income. We were given guaranteed health care. These things really, really impacted people psychologically, I think. It made them feel safer. It made them feel calmer about this, you know, for something so horrific and so scary, it gave kind of a cushion. And the truth was, I don't think

politicians were necessarily thinking they were doing it for that reason. I think they were doing it to keep the economy aflo. So the moment the economy was not as threatened, you know, all that stuff got taken away very quickly. But I don't think people forget things so dramatic, even if they don't think about them on a day-to-day level. I think seeing that was really disconcerting for people because they'd been sold this lie that you can't keep an economy flow. You won't be motivated to work if you're not, you know,

if you're given basic income. All these things are really, in my opinion, lies that people have been told. And now they're kind of seeing them for what they are. And then to just get jolted back into a different life, I think is something to create. It's a very, not something small in someone. I think it, like, the reason I use existential is because it transforms the way you actually look at the world and feel yourself in the world.

Yeah, for sure. And one of the points that you make also is that, you know, there was a lot of rending of clothes and gnashing of teeth, if you will, about how people kept saying they were better off under Trump four years ago, which on the face of it seems insane. But then if you think about it, maybe what they're thinking about is, well, under Trump, I got money. I got a little bit, you know, yes, I was locked in my house or apartment, but as you said, I didn't have to worry about having enough money to pay my health care this month or my rent. And then that goes away under Biden when all of that stuff is stopped.

And even though it was Democrats who fought for it under Trump and Republicans who couldn't wait to get rid of it under Biden, Trump gets the credit for it and Biden then gets the blame for it going away. Yeah, I mean, I think that's true. I also do though think, like, materially, things have gotten worse for a lot of people. You know, one of the things that I listed there, you know, was the eviction rate has gone way up. And I think, you know, that is something that, again, is like kind of that longer time frame is the COVID experience. Yes, it was better. But then they're also thinking about how things have been, you know, historically watching this inequality grow and grow and grow and how quickly it could have been fixed or could be fixed.

And now seeing that under Biden, I think that is is not just a misconcons. they're not just misconstruing, you know, the benefits they got during Trump and the, and the detriment during Biden, but they're seeing, like, larger trends that make it feel more hopeless, I think, in their minds where they see, oh, Biden getting elected did not solve this inequality that I am now suffering under. Yeah, no, that's totally fair, obviously. Talk about another issue where you feel like existential dread isn't addressed enough or, you know, at best is under addressed by Democrats, particularly climate change. You say it was a big mistake. that neither Biden nor Harris got into this aspect of climate change, the existential dread aspect,

right? Yeah. You know, I had quit Klonopin like two years ago. And I was like experiencing anxiety on a much deeper level for a little while. And I started kind of obsessing over climate change. And it was really, really scary for me. And it still is. And what's so interesting looking back on it was was how intense it was and how I actually don't think anything that I thought was inaccurate. It was just that my body was. more dysregulated. And I think that is something I think about a lot when I read now about the level of anxiety people feel around climate change. That's something I don't think is normal for humanity. There's people who are literally thinking about the end of the world and seeing it as like

a realistic thing in a way that's not even like a nuclear threat, which would be sudden. It's something where we're watching in real time powerful people not doing anything about it. That's really, really scary and that's really, really hard for people. And then, you know, the reason that Another reason I mentioned climate change is beside the fact that it's scary, is our reaction to that is not necessarily like what people would expect. It's not people, you know, rebelling. It's not people voting one way or the other. When someone like Biden is talking about incremental change and not talking about like we need to transform society because of this enormous threat that people are feeling. And, you know, I think anyone with who's had some kind of anxiety can sympathize with is, you know, we check out. Like I would rather spend my time, you know, enjoying my family.

and watching Netflix, then thinking about that. And if I think that I can't do anything to improve it, then that's probably what's going to happen. Yeah. And if you think that at best, you know, like you said, that the Democrats, to maybe oversimplify it, aren't going to fix the problem or aren't going to address the problem

with the seriousness it deserves, then why are you rushing out to vote for them? And so that gets to the, you know, as you said, the story of this election is maybe not the people who voted for Trump. It's the people who just didn't vote. Exactly, exactly, especially because people, I think there's another aspect of pungry is we're kind of looking for someone to blame and especially

voters as opposed to people in power and leaders and structures systemic structures. And so we tend to focus a lot of like moral judgment one way or the other. And that I think kind of releases a lot of people from coming face to face with an uncomfortable reality, which is that when there is this kind of mass level of difficulty, you know, that's not something that we can solve easily. It's not something that we can judge people for because this is such a large trend that really in reality, so many people are really checking out. And it's not just applying to elections. They're not reading the news as much.

They're not engaged with the news as much. They're not involved as much with their life around them. You know, we know how lonely people are. That affects this. And it's not something that I think people necessarily think about when they think about elections. But when people feel alone and they feel like they don't have power and they feel like things are getting worse.

You know, that's something that will have a large trend. Even if you want to judge those people, I think there's no denying that that has a massive effect on the way people think and act. Yeah, for sure. You mentioned earlier another big thing that you think has to do with how this election turned out is basically how turned off ordinary folks are by the lack of accountability for powerful people. And this predates Trump. So take us back to a time when Flo Rida and T. Payne ruled the charts with low. And the Dark Night gave us the hero we deserved. I'm talking about, of course, the year 2008.

Yeah. 2008 really shook Americans because although there was a lot of anger and frustration with the elites, there was still some hope. And I think that 2008 really started to be a moment where that inflection point started to tip. Because what people saw was not only that their lives were materially, suddenly, much worse than they were. And suddenly they were seeing all these people in power that I think there was a brief moment where people thought, okay, these banks that are like have ruined my life are in some sense going to be held accountable. At least the leaders, maybe if we have to bail out a bank, you know, at the very least leaders will be held responsible.

No one was really held seriously responsible. And not only that, I think people looked now for years and watched as these same people stayed in, not only stayed in positions of power, They got into the government, you know, they worked for Obama. They, you know, became influential. Some of them are still, you know, we still have to hear their opinions in the news. You know, it's something that if you are now spending decades of your life, like having your life materially affected by that and you're watching this kind of integration of power in both the Democratic and Republican parties, it's hard not to be cynical about that, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. then we see a similar thing play out in the post-Obama era with Trump himself, where none of the illegal and or immoral and or unethical things he does seem to have any ultimate consequences for him. And the Democrats give us Merrick Garland. You know, so I think a lot of people are just sitting out there going, well, once again, the rich, powerful guy can do whatever he want. That's America. And I'm sitting here struggling.

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot about, you know, the Mueller investigation and how, you know, anyone who was like on Twitter at that time will remember how people were like, I mean, I didn't think this, but I know it was very widespread that like Mueller is going to solve our problems. Like this is, you know, everything I've watched, you know, on TV about justice and the way it plays out. And when someone on such a massive level is doing something wrong, someone's going to swoop in and is going to save us. And I think beyond that like desire to be saved, I think it was also just kind of an assumption about the American government is that we're going to be protected by someone, so dangerous. And I think it became very obvious, I think, beyond the fact that Trump himself wasn't held accountable and we got people like Merrick Garland involved, it was also part of a larger pattern connected to 2008 and connected to so much else where we start to, I think it starts to hit people that the people in power have a completely different set of rules than than the rest of us. And so Trump, as horrifying as everything he did was, and as horrifying as a person as he is, and how real his danger is.

On the other hand, like the way the government dealt with him is actually, I think for most people, the way they interpret it is not that much different than anything else in our country. I think it just made it a little bit clearer for people. Yeah, for sure. I want you to talk about something that you say is kind of the one thing that actually brought people hope, and particularly young people, at least for a little while. And that was the Black Lives Matters movement. So talk about that for a bit.

Yeah, you know, I've actually spoken with some of the Black Lives Matters movement. Lives Matter leaders as well. And one of the things that strikes me is how rejected they felt because they felt like they really helped bring Biden the win in 2020. And I think people, when I heard that, I was kind of, at the time, I was surprised because I didn't realize or I didn't think, I guess, about how integrated they were, how much they were trying to mobilize people at that time. And in that sense. And, you know, when I start to dig into the data, I became really interested because the truth was the engagement of young people in particular, but people in general as well was so much higher.

Wherever Black Lives Matter was active, there was a direct correlation between that and people's voting habits, registration, and how they voted. There was this time where I think people forget, because it's become kind of polluted, the discourse about BLM, people forget how activated people were to the point where, they did some more data on it, how it was the largest movement in American history

by some measures. And that that quickly collapsed very quickly for a ton of reasons, I think stuck with people as well. When you have this like nationwide conversation about race and feeling like something might change, like this is a moment where we are about to transform like the most essential aspect of American reality, which is kind of like these deep racial divisions, and then suddenly it's gone. That again is similar to the COVID thing where all of a sudden you're like, wait, what just happened? What does that say? You know, I think to a lot of people, it says the people in charge aren't going to let any real change happen. And that is, again, a reason for staying home and a reason for feeling dread about the future.

But what's your conclusion here? What do you think has to happen to sort of maybe recapture the hope and inspiration that BLM gave to so many, even if it was so briefly, before the existential dread crept back in? Well, you know, honestly, I think it's the same as what we needed then, which is we need a movement like BLM. We need people to, as a grassroots, desire to truly transform American society. I think when the threat is so large, when we're talking about such deep threats when it comes to climate change, and we're talking about such deep

inequality, you need an equal or larger response to that. And that's not something that people above us are going to give us. And I hope and believe that as much as this has made people cynical, it's also hopefully created an opportunity for people to realize now that the job is on us. The job is on us to create a movement. And I strongly believe that that's going to happen. And I actually, for that reason, have a lot of hope. I mean, that's excellent to hear and sort of echoes something that I was saying right after the election is that I think people know now that no one is coming to save us. Right. And that that's not a reason to curl up in a ball in the corner. It's a reason to realize that we have to save us. And I feel like that's what you're getting at here.

That's exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And I feel the same. Elah, thank you so much for being here. I was telling you before we started recording that reading your piece really made me actually reframe the way I was thinking about some things. And I am so deeply appreciative of that and for that. So thanks so much for coming on and taking the time to talk to me. Yeah, thanks for having me. Danielle Moody.

Andy Levy. So Danielle, close out this week, not start out this week as earlier. when I had to restart the show intro because I, for some reason, thought this was Monday, Tuesday and not Thursday Friday. Close out this week with your fuck that guy. Well, you know, we're going to stay on, I guess for me, the theme of health care, which is a new report has come out, which is utterly disturbing, according to the New York Times, that most rural hospitals have closed. their maternity wards. And this is wild. So I'll read this piece, which says that over 500 hospitals have closed their labor and delivery departments since 2010. So that is prior to the overturning of Roe v. Wade, obviously. And this has left most rural hospitals and more than a third of

urban hospitals, according to this New York Times article without obstetric care. And while this report, the data only runs through 2022, states with abortion bans have experienced a sharp decline in their obstetrician workforce. And pretty much it is being said because people are fleeing. They are, these doctors are leaving these states. Hospitals are losing funding. And it is leaving. And it is leaving, a incredibly dangerous situation for pregnant people in these states. What was quoted by the lead author of the study, Katie Cozumano, I think, who's a professor of health policy at the University of Minnesota, said this, quote, we're more than a decade into a severe maternal mortality crisis in the United States. And access to hospital-based maternity care has continued to

decline over that entire time period. I mean, this is extraordinary. And again, these numbers, this data is prior to the overturning of Roe v. Wade. So we know that the overturning of Roe v. Wade has just exacerbated and already extenuating crisis that this country has been in. I do not understand how America continues to say that it is a leading nation. And we have women die from childbirth, from preventable issues with childbirth because, one, we now live in health care deserts in red states that have instituted these draconian abortion bans. And further than that, we just have had no investment in health care infrastructure in rural areas and urban centers. And so it's just to get pregnant in America right now, particularly if you also happen to be a black woman,

is like one and four black women die. So it's absolutely just astounding, astounding that we call ourselves an industrialized nation and our maternal mortality rate looks like that of an underdeveloped, underresourced country. For that reason, I don't even know whom I fuck that guy goes to. I guess maybe it's America because I don't know if you can really blame these rural areas for closing hospitals when they don't have the funding and the investment. And then you can't blame the doctors for leaving if they're facing jail sentences for providing care.

It's extraordinary. It's extraordinary where we are. And my heart goes out to those of, you know, that want to be parents or, you know, or just want care and can't get it and are literally now gambling with their lives if you become pregnant. It's a dark place that we're in. Yeah, it really is. And according to the Times piece by Sarah Cliff, most rural hospitals in America now do not have obstetric care.

And a third of urban hospitals don't have obstetric care. So this is nationwide. And it does seem like, you know, in the pre-Dobs era, a lot of it, if not all of it, had to do with cost. I did not realize that obstetrics units were straight up money losers for. hospitals and that, you know, what the hospital usually does is cover for that by making, you know, make up for that with other departments. But I guess particularly, you know, in a rural area, it's really hard to do that if your hospital is small to begin with. It's tough to do that. And then, of course, you know, COVID, I think exacerbated a lot of it. And there's now a

nursing shortage. And a lot of these places have had to close because they couldn't staff them. And then on top of that, you're going to throw in doctors and nurses who, as you said, don't want to have to deal with the fact that in a post-Dob's world, they may come under investigation or be charged with something if they perform a service that is deemed an abortion in a state that no longer allows that. So it's just, it's an absolutely horrible situation all around. And I think you're right here. I mean, we spent some time earlier in the show talking about, you know, the nature of the health care system in America. And I, I think that that is who this fuck that guy has to go to.

I think it really is. It just, again, speaks to how bad things have gotten and how a system that was, you know, at one point it was at least it was held up as the way to do things. And now we are learning that not so much these days. I'm with you. Fuck that guy, whoever that guy may be. The man. So, Andy, how are you closing out?

this week with your fuck that guy. Well, I'll go back to, we were talking about Cash Mattel earlier in the show, and I'll go to another cabinet level nominee of Donald Trump. And that is Tulsi Gabbard, who is who Trump wants to be the director of national intelligence. Look, Tulsi has been problematic for a while to say the least. She was a early defender of Vladimir Putin invading Ukraine. She has been a champion of Syria's dictator Bashar al-Assad. ABC News is now reporting that some of her, well, now former staff, but staff at the time,

are saying that the reason that she's so pro-Russia is that she consumes a heavy media diet of Russian propaganda. That includes RT, which is. owned by the Russian state. It used to be called Russia Today. I think it just goes by RT now. And it is a straight up, you know, Russian propaganda organization. And it goes on from there. The same former staffers have a lot of concerns about her, who she counts among her sources in places like Syria, and that they are basically, you know, she gets a lot of her sourcing from, in the case of Syria, from Assad's own people, which makes her sympathetic to him.

And he's, I mean, he's just a god-awful guy. The idea that this is going to be the person who is the head of our national intelligence community is, I don't know, eyebrow raising to say the least. It is a question, I think, of whether she will get confirmed. I suspect she probably will, but I don't know that it's going to be an easy road because I think even a lot of Republican senators seem to really believe that she's kind of an asset of Russia slash Syria, kind of a, can it be both situation? And that may not fly. So we'll see what happens. But in the meantime, just another god-awful pick by Donald Trump, just again, showing that he just does not care about this country. And, you know, we've known that for a long time. And it's not

like this is the first evidence we've had of that. It is just another check in the evidence column of does not love his country. So I guess I'll make it a joint fuck that guy to both Tulsi and Donnie. Yeah, I think that the place that I find myself is it is really still shocking to have somebody be elected president who really does not care about Americans. And like, so much so that you, the people that you are choosing to head up agencies that are going to oversee 330 plus million people in this country don't even like America. They don't even like Americans. And they're not even pretending to. And so it's just astounding. Like, why are you even in political office? And the only reason is for the power and the grift. Because it isn't to help anyone except

themselves. And so we have an entire government that is going to be filled with some of the craziest conspiracy theorists, some of like the known foreign agents. And we basically just have opened up our coffers to everyone that wants to court Donald Trump with favor. You get a document and you get a document and you get, you know, secret intel and you get secret intel. Like, it is just a free for all. Yeah. And so for that, you know, all of them. Trump and Tulsi and the rest of them. Fuck those guys. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of the new abnormal.

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