The Daily Beast Podcast - Bill O’Reilly Accuser Andrea Mackris: I Want People to ‘Understand the Terror’ of Forced NDAs

Episode Date: July 19, 2021

On this special episode of The New Abnormal host Molly Jong-Fast and The Daily Beast's Diana Falzone talk to Bill O’Reilly accuser Andrea Mackris about the forces that protected the Fox News host from her sexual harassment accusations for 17 years, her "forced" NDA and why she doesn't care about the financial consequences of breaching it. If you haven't heard, every single week The New Abnormal does a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast’s membership program. where Sometimes we interview Senators like Cory Booker or the folks who explain our world in media like Jim Acosta or Soledad O’Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner and sometimes it's just discussing the fuckery. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a Beast Inside member where you’ll support The Beast’s fearless journalism. Plus! You’ll also get full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member head to newabnormal.thedailybeast.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to a special episode of The New Abnormal. We have a really powerful episode today with Andrea Macris, who was sexually harassed by Bill O'Reilly while working at Fox News and has come forward recently to break her NDA to talk to The Daily Beast, Diana Falzone, who will join us for this podcast to discuss Andrea's story. So my first question for you is you got this settlement and Fox kept him. Correct. Can you talk about what that was? was like to watch, you had to sort of go off and be silent, and then he just got to keep going. This is what I wrote to Diana, actually. We spoke about this, and I wrote her about this. So this is something that I'm really happy to address. I sit 17 years and counting outside of my profession

where I belong. I never wanted the money. I wanted my day in court. I wanted my career. I wanted my voice. My silence was never a bargaining chip. I'll be quiet if you pay me off. I never agreed to play a role in any of this. So a serial sexual predator is protected by my NDA. And this is a document that shouldn't even be legal that allowed Fox News Channel and below Riley to make millions of dollars, perhaps billions, off of forcing the silence of women.

So, of course, like, that was horrible to witness him harming more women, the legal system protecting him and silencing me. So it allowed him to go on and harass more women. It must have felt really powerless. It was very powerless. I had no power at all.

One of the things you talked about is there was sort of an O'Reilly shift. Like he was normal, and then when he saw that he had a little bit of power over you, he kind of changed. When you went to Bill Shine to get a raise, when you really needed the job, there was a change. When it began, yes. I mean, I just think that's very interesting and a sort of a typical kind of thing for these kind of harassers. Yeah, so this is about 2002. My fiance and I had broken up. We've been together for eight years. It was devastating as any major breakup is. And we had a shared home,

shared finances, and now I was on my own, and I did not make enough. I had student loans, and I had, you know, Manhattan's expensive. I'm not a trust fund kid. I'm making my way, you know. And I had a decent salary, but it wasn't enough. So I went to shine. And I said, you know, I don't know how to do this, but I've got to make more. And I was doing really well. So I felt like I was at that point where a lot of people get where they're like, you know, I'm doing really good work. Maybe it's time to just kind of ask.

And so I said that to him and he said, I think you just asked. That's how you do it. Let me talk to Bill O'Reilly. And Bill took everybody out to dinners. The guys on the staff, the girls on the staff, everybody on the staff would get like one-on-one dinners. It was kind of the equivalent of maybe the golf game where you get that one-on-one time that's kind of special, focused on you and what you need out of your career. That was the idea.

So he quickly, Bill O'Reilly quickly said, you know, let's go to dinner, we'll discuss your future. So the entire premise of this dinner, and I'd been to dinners with him before, I'd met his wife, I'd been to his home. Like, you know, it was, it was normal to go to dinner with Bill. So this was not my first dinner with him. But it was at this dinner where he started telling me that I should get a younger lover. and I could find one I should go to one of those charity balls I remember he was saying

you know glaucoma was big in my day maybe you should go to he was talking about different charities and ones I should go to maybe a different kind of cancer today I don't know what it was and then he said I needed to get a vibrator to blow off steam

and keep myself in traction I just remember sitting at the table turning bright red and I remember eyes going in two different directions and his daughter later in court said that he said the same word Jekylline Hyde. He changed physically

his face changed in front of me. It was terrifying. I'm a strong, confident person. And so I said, you know, I don't think at that table I actually said to stop yet. Or I'm sure I redirected the conversation. I did not add in any details. But he started, it was the beginning. He started to say that it was healthy and that this was normal.

And then he immediately started asking about my career, you know, what I wanted. And I said, you know, I really love my job. loved. The dynamic of working with him was fantastic for me. I really, we really worked well together. And he's demanding, and I responded well to his, you know, high-paced, high-energy environment on that show. You know, I was just saying that I didn't want to leave. I didn't want to have to go somewhere else. My friends at ABC and NBC and CNN, you know, we'd talk. We'd meet up after work and we talk about the news that how we, you know, the different shows we were on, how we tackled the same story that day. And I knew that they were making.

a lot more money than me. And so I said that to him. And he said, you know, he would take care of it to stick with him and I'd go far. I remember we were walking out to the subway when he said that. He turned around and he said, stick with me and you'll go far. I'll take care of you. And I remember sitting in my body in that moment terrified. I knew that a corner had just been turned and I didn't have words for it. And I was really scared. I think it's important to talk about it a little bit that you grew up very religious. Like, this was even more shocking to you. Absolutely. I'd never been spoken to this way. The portrait that was drawn of me in the press in 2004 was as a slut and somebody who was really promiscuous and drunk all the time. I was the direct opposite. I did have a very

religious upbringing. I went to Christian high school. Both of my parents went to seminary. I was always at like youth groups that were Christian-based and camps that were Christian-based. The majority of my friends growing up were Christian, you know, Catholic or Protestant, but like practicing Christian. Part of my family is evangelical, you know, even a little bit deeper into the faith. And so, you know, I had my kind of faith. I wouldn't say that I was a super religious person, but I definitely had a concept of God and prayed. And, you know, I wasn't seeking out, you know, I wasn't going to church when I was in Manhattan. I kind of broke away from my, my active, you know, like participation in church when I got to college. I was kind of done with it for a while. I needed to breathe there because it was

pretty rigorous, but it was my base. It was my roots were in the Christian faith, for sure. And so it's not that people who are Christian don't, you know, talk about sex or sexual things. It's just the context of what Bill was doing. I had never been exposed to. I think my point in the Christian thing is, what I would want to say is I had roots in a faith that grounded me in something bigger than me, you know, a concept of God, that was sort of a moral comfort. this. You know, I was raised with a sense of morality and how you treat other people. And I had certainly never been in a situation where I was treated this way or witnessed anyone being treated this way. But there were a lot of attacks on your character in these opinion pieces, one by

someone who is still on television, Smirconish. And I'm curious to know, Smirkonish also had a relationship with Bill O'Reilly. Right. What happened with, it was Michael Schmerkhanish and Richard Cohen and Deborah Norval were probably the three most painful people in the media with a vast audience, each one of them. And they each had their own relationship with Bill. Mr. Kanish would guest host the O'Reilly Factor when he was out of town. So he really had a had a horse in this race. Absolutely. I mean, he also was able to peddle his book on the number one show in cable news. I mean, it's better than that. I mean, it was pretty great for him. So the three people that really did hit pieces outside of the New York Post's fountain of hit pieces.

That's kind of the brand. Those three pieces, one in the Washington Post, syndicated column, Richard Cohen, one in the Philadelphia Inquirer with Michael Schmachos and also syndicated, meaning goes around the world. And then Deborah Norville was on MSNBC at 9 o'clock, kind of the equivalent of not exactly Rachel Maudow, but that audience base. They did not have access to my evidence. They did not speak with me. And they took a side. They took a side against me. And it's just breathtaking. And I lived with that pain for years and years. One of the things to clarify, too, Andrea at this point was silenced by the non-disclosure agreement. She was getting calls from media figures like Deborah Norval, who were asking her to, quote, unquote, explain herself. Right. And she couldn't. And she couldn't. Media figures like Deborah Norval did not understand or know at this point that Andrea was unable to respond to her messages, but was unable to respond to comment request because she was bound by a very wide-reaching Drachronian NDA, non-disclosure agreement. In part, without being able to do any fact-checking, and I'm not saying all of the media, but a lot of prominent media figures just took aside. And because Bill O'Reilly was able to go on national television and use his platform and say that there was no admission of wrongdoing.

He was saying that he, you know, this was a terrible thing that happened in his life and not to believe anything that you read or see, and I'm paraphrasing. But to be able to do that within hours of Andrea's signing an NDA, obviously put him in a position of power where Andrea couldn't. respond. And that's really common with all NDAs, right, is that the woman is silenced and the man can go around and sort of write the, you know, story he wants. It's interesting, too, because Fox News gave us a statement. When I reached out for comment with Lloyd Grove, who was my co-author on this, when we reached out for statement, the Fox News rep said, in so many words, this behavior happened under different leadership, under Ailes. This happened under, you know, when Bill O'Reilly was there. He's since left. Now we have new leadership. We have a new workplace culture. The New York City Commission on Human Rights just fine them for a million dollars for an investigation that's been ongoing since 2016. There's still two current sexual harassment and or assault cases being litigated against Fox News by former. and current Fox News employees. Right, the Ed Henry case. The Ed Henry case and the Britt McHenry case.

Right. And Britt McHenry is still there, right? She's still there, yes. So it's still going on. And there are other allegations that you've written about more recently, too. Yeah, but in a nutshell, I mean, those are the two biggest high-profile cases. You have the Commission on Human Rights, giving the biggest fine they've ever given in the history of the commission to Fox News as well as restorative justice, meaning that Fox News has to agree to change the way they handle their culture. So there's serious holes in that statement, not to editorialize, but just to point out the facts. There's serious holes in that statement. It's an admission guilt.

It's the first time that they've admitted guilt. Do you find, Andrea, that when you were alone, but then it turns out there were six other suits? Yes. Against Bill O'Reilly, which is how he ended up having to pay out $45 million. But how did you find that out and how did you feel? I found out with you. I had no idea. I had not been in touch with anybody from Fox News Channel since 2004.

I was, I did not hear for one colleague ever again. I was not in touch with anyone. how would I have known? And when I read, it was, I mean, I can't even tell you how breathtaking, literally breathtaking it was to read that I wasn't alone. And it's a mixed thing. It's so good to not be alone, you know, and it's also, it revealed such a tremendous loss. And that no matter what I tried, I did stand up in 2004. I did speak. I wasn't silent. I did tell the truth. and it didn't matter. He was still allowed to abuse and harass other women protected by a team of lawyers,

some of the highest on lawyers in the United States. And also some of the people at Fox News who protected him are still there. Yes. Can you talk about that a little? Let me put you this way. The settlement on October 28, 2004, the big thing was that Fox was going to hear the tapes. They had been saying that I was a liar. they were saying, you know, she's got to, she's going to, she has fake tapes, she's got to hand them over to a judge. The next day, October 29th was our court date. All of a sudden, there's this rushed meeting at Mark Hazowitz's office on a high floor of the Paramount building. It was like I was in some sort of movie. With all men, I was surrounded by like eight men in really high-end suits. And the whole thing was it was urgent that we get the tapes to Fox. So my lawyers handed over the tapes. And Fred Newman, Bill's lawyer, went over to Fox News Channel. And, you know,

Bill O'Reilly himself, Roger Ailes, Diane Brandy, the chief in-house legal counsel at Fox, and Fred Newman all heard the tapes that are two of them. When Fred came back to the room, he apologized for his clients and said that he felt like he needed to take a shower. And then it was on. It was urgent. I was being forced to sign that document. It was not a negotiation. I was not a part of putting together anything that would protect me or any kind of thing that I would want. It was already written and waiting. And all I know is that I, like a shock went through my body. My voice started raising. I started to shout. The other thing was he was going to get to make a statement. Part of the NDA is the statement of no wrongdoing on we release.

But the thing is, what happened in that same night, Diane Brandy, chief legal for Fox, in-house counsel, makes me shake. She requested on Fox News Channel email that my tapes be destroyed. And And she sent that to another lawyer for Fox named John Pope. And he said, I'll get it done. And by the next day, my tapes were destroyed. So the in-house counsel themselves, Diane Brandy, is admitting Bill's wrongdoing. You don't destroy evidence if there isn't a cover-up. If you don't think something wrong happened.

They know that they've done wrong. They know that Bill's wrong. They know what Bill has done. And Bill's done a lot worse than the public knows. And they know it. And I know it. And they destroyed evidence. They destroyed evidence.

it's called in legal parlance spoliation and that is defined as consciousness of guilt. So they know, they know, so when Bill trots out, this abusive macros released me from all wrongdoing. Diane Brandy says herself that you did wrong. The Fox News Channel itself is saying that Bill was wrong when they destroyed the tapes or you wouldn't destroy him. And also to add to that, when I went for comment call to O'Reilly's counsel, who is Frederick Newman, he repeated the same sentiments today, he told us via email that Ms. Macris issued a public statement in 2004 in which she stated that, quote, there was no wrongdoing whatsoever by Mr. O'Reilly. And Andrea, I'll let you respond to what Mr. Newman said. I never released a statement. It was part of the forced NDA

in which I was bullied and coerced under duress, screaming, crying, shaking uncontrollably, saying, no, no, no, I do not want to sign this. I want to go to trial. I'll walk out of here. I'm not doing this. And they cleared the room and left me with one of my lawyers, David Ratner, who pounded his fists on the shiny, long, lacquer table and said, no one believes you. You'll never be hired again. If you walk out of here, you got to remember, we were sued too. And if you walk out of here, no lawyer. Who's going to want to work with you? And then he slammed his hands down. He said, you didn't hire us to go to trial. You hired us to stop him. This is as good as it gets. And he slammed his hands down and he said,

take the money and move on with your life. Screamed it at me. And I swear to you, I wasn't in my body. I think I blacked out. I had no protection. I had no protection. I don't remember signing. I don't remember. I didn't get a copy. I got a copy of my NDA for the first time on January 18th, 2018 from Nancy Erica Smith, who got it from Fox's own lawyers at William and Connolly during a lawsuit I had against Fox. Fox's lawyer gave me my NDA because Ben Morelli wouldn't give it to me. And when I reached out for comment to David Ratner, Andrea's former co-counsel, his rendition was very different than her boardroom encounter saying no one yelled, no one screamed, no one threatened. After several hours of negotiation, Kazowitz said that nine million,

was the final offer. Andrea read and signed the settlement agreement. She knew that the agreement contained an NDA because her portion of the settlement was paid in three annual installments to ensure that she did not violate the NDA. He added, I'm distressed, then Andrea's memory is so faulty. Well, his memory is also quite faulty because it was not actually in four installments because we had an amended NDA that came in 2007 again in my life trying to move on,

put air quotes around moving on. It's absurd. It's an impossibility when this is what happens to your life. And I got a call out of the, out of the blue from Ben. Again, urgent. You must sign this document. And he said, get to a fax machine and out pops two sheets. And it was numbered. And the number two line was about somebody named Rudy Bactiar. I'd never heard of her. I don't know who this is. And now I know who she is. But at the time I didn't know. She was working at Fox in D.C. I believe she was an on-air correspondent. And she was being harassed at the time by Brian Wilson. And she, like anybody, would see a lawyer with a case publicly, like what you're going through. You'd want to contact them. So she contacted my lawyers. And instead of getting protection, she got silenced in my own NDA. There is another woman silenced in my NDA.

The agony of that, the fact that I stood up and it didn't matter. And in fact, other women are still getting harmed by my own NDA. And I can't talk about it. I'm not allowed. If I talk about it, they'll come through another round of of annihilation. Do you wish you had just sort of released the tapes? It's a really good question. I had been begging them to release the tapes the whole time. I said, let's just press play. Can we just press play and go home? Yeah, it would have changed everything. But you know what, Molly? If my lawyers had made a copy, right?

Which they also didn't do. They really set you up. Well, how is that not working for Fox? I don't know. I mean, and God, knows. I think the American Bar Association knows. Do you think that there are more accusations besides the ones we know of being covered up at Fox right now? I have no way of knowing for sure, but I would say, you know, based on what we've all witnessed, I wouldn't be surprised. I've talked to other people who've had allegations against Fox hosts, et cetera, and they have said, and I'm curious to know what you think of this, that one of the things about Fox was that when it was under, Roger Ailes, that it was actually, like, less scary because you had your little fiefdoms, and if you were being harassed, you were still only being harassed by the person who was kind of your harasser, and it wasn't a free-for-all the way when Roger Ailes left, it was.

I don't know what to make of that, but I just thought, like, that when Roger Ales left, it actually got worse because there was no, there was a certain lawlessness there. I don't know how to respond. I don't know if it's true, but that's what I... I feel terribly for the women at Fox, or the men, if they're men being harassed. I hope that they would be encouraged by the strength of the women who have come forward and join us, because this is the way it ends. This is the only way to make it end. I also wanted to add in about David Ratner. It was not in three installments.

And in fact, when I had to sign that second, the amended NDA, all of this is public, by the way. My NDA is one of the only NDAs from Fox News Channel that was made public by a federal. judge in the Southern District of New York on April 4th, 2018 as part of my defamation lawsuit against Bill O'Reilly. And so the public can read it at any time. Its value is not to be understated in describing what happens to a woman who tells the truth in filing a complaint of sexual harassment against Bill O'Reilly at Fox News Channel. This is what happens to you. And it was not in three installments when the second, when the amendic NDA came through that fax machine, it detailed that the settlement was going to be spliced. even more. So it took, I think, four more years. It wound up being longer. I think it was,

I think it was a five-year or six-year payout when it was supposed to be three, I think. That was because of my attorneys, not because of me. I had not said or done anything that required this amended NDA. The only reason that NDA came through is because they were bound in that document. Fox said that Morelli and Associates would never represent another woman with a claim against Fox. My NDA requires that my attorneys refuse to represent any other woman with a claim of sexual harassment against anyone employed at Fox. And that is against the American Bar Association, against their rules. You're not allowed to do that. I don't know how my NDA is enforceable. I don't understand it. I welcome a public examination of my NDA.

When I did reach out for comment to Fred Newman-Orily's counsel, but we were given a threat that they would sue Macris, The Daily Beast, myself, Lloyd Grove, and anyone else who acted in concert getting the story published. So that leads us to where we are now, the story published. If I have to pay a breach, it's less than the cost of the past 17 years, I'll tell you that. I welcome the risk because this is intolerable. And to answer your question, nobody at Fox knew what was happening to me. It was always alone. Some of my friends knew, and some of them were at Fox. they were all very supportive of me. I really didn't tell that many people.

I didn't understand what was happening. A different world. I didn't even know if I had a legal case. I didn't know that it was called sexual harassment. I didn't understand that there were federal laws that applied to the workplace on the subject. I had no idea. I didn't know what the EEOC was.

I watched the Anita Hill hearings, but I didn't understand the context that I was in. I want to say on the record how much this is Diana's giving me, she's opened the jail door and said, walk free and how much I'm indebted to her. And what an excellent piece that she wrote. I'm sorry that you had to go through this. I mean, it's just such a nightmare.

And what do you think of Bill O'Reilly touring with Trump now? I try not to think about Bill O'Reilly. Try not to be invested in what he's doing or not doing, saying or not saying. I think that, you know, Bill's getting older. And, you know, he has, I would wish for him that he would take the opportunity to get right with his maker and with the people he's harmed. He can always change. And it's welcome. we can always do better. We can become better people. It's never too late. That's what I think of Bill O'Reilly. He, you know, he's going to do what he's going to do. It's not my business.

Something that's very paramount to this entire narrative of the Andrew Macra story is that her alleged predator, Bill O'Reilly, was able to go on and have a career for 17 years and be one of the most successful, notable, prominent figures in cable news. woman who made the allegations and who was doing very well in her chosen line of work at Fox News had to be sidelined and silenced and derailed. And that Andrea did try to get jobs back in media. She tried two times to get a job in media. And as Andrea explained it, the prongs of power and the six degrees of Bill O'Reilly while he was going on the Colbert show and other programs, even Oprah, here she was unable to get a job in media because she was voiceless. Now we're here in 2021, 17 years later, and she's using her voice. And I hope that counts for something.

Because from what I learned about this woman is that she was really robbed of her potential. If I can come in on that. And first of all, Diana, wow, thank you. That was really beautifully said. And I really appreciate that. My story is useful to giving the human side to the legal jargon about NDAs. It's a very hot topic right now. Gretchen Carlson is the spokesperson for a bipartisan bill that was just introduced to both the House and Senate this week to end forced arbitration.

My story about what it's like is useful in helping people understand the terror of forced arbitration and that it could happen to them. It could happen to people they love. and they would never know it because they're not allowed to speak. It takes me taking this risk. It takes somebody being able to speak about their experience with this and who can. If you're silenced, you're not going to be able to talk. If you have an NDA, you can't describe what it's like to. So what I'd like to add in if I can is my why now?

Like, why am I doing this? Like even if it's really scary, I'm at the point that no matter what chaos this might bring me, I have to take the risk to live my fullest life without fear. as something's sort of broke free in me. It's like spiritual atrophy or an existential death to try to avoid this pain of being silenced because then it's only magnified. And so I accept the cost of what's on the other side of this because it's better than this alternative, even if I have to pay a breach, it's less than the cost of the past 17 years.

And my act of breaking it is almost an act of self-defense. You know, it's like no matter what he tries to do to me, I'm going to be okay. Because I won't be able to be, it'll be useful now. It gives us paying a purpose to add my voice into this, you know, what is an NDA? Well, now you can read mine and now you can hear what it was like in forced arbitration, and it has to end. There should not be one, you know, NDAs are for the, you know, the recipe to the secret sauce or, you know, the trademark information or, you know, different bits of consulting you might have done, you know, in the back rooms with people on a project. It's not about confiscating a woman's First Amendment right to tell the truth of her own story. And if I dare tell the truth, I'm supposed, but according to my NDA, I'm held to not tell the truth, even in a court of law.

I'm not allowed to say that Bill O'Reilly hurt me. And the breathtaking extent of my silencing is useful now to, you know, that's why it's worth the risk for me. It's because it's useful now to add in to the conversation about ending NDA's enforced arbitration. one of the questions, I mean, I wouldn't ask this because I think you've been silent for 17 years and, you know, but you did get $9 million. And, you know, honestly, I would never fucking give that back. But I could see where some people might think you should, though I don't think you should. I think it's ridiculous. But what would you say to that?

I would say, fuck no. Well, my attorneys got three. Wow. It's not what I wanted. I was bullied. I didn't even have legal representation. or a proper mediator at the signing. What I wanted was my voice, my career, and a day in court with Bill O'Reilly.

And instead, I lost my first amendment right to tell the truth of my own story. I have to lie even in court. And I can never correct or clarify what other people say about me or about what happens to me. So you all out there can say whatever you want about me. And I can never add in a correction or clarification or information that might be helpful and useful. And Bill got to go on to harass more women for another decade and a half. And, you know, people say, well, you know, will you give it back? Will he give me the past 17 years? He won't even apologize.

Yeah, I wouldn't give the fucking money back. If anything, I would ask for more. I mean, you know, I think it's the idea that you should give the money back is absolutely preposterous. People are curious, why now? Why you decided after 17 years? And one of the things that you confided in me and told me was that if you tried to do this any sooner, society wasn't ready for it. it had to be after the Me Too movement, and it had to be a few years after the Me Too movement. I mean, there is legislation right now happening. So your story is particularly relevant to exactly what's happening right now. So I think this is the perfect time. Thank you, Molly. I didn't think of it that way. You know, Diana, you know, asked some questions that made me have to really take stock of where I'm at.

I mean, the reality is if everyone who had had experiences like this came out, we would have no Donald Trump today. I mean. I agree. I think that what I realized through Diana's questions was that I'm the only way out. It requires, like, the fear is worse than the actual act of walking through unsilencing yourself and breaking your NDA. And it renders it powerless. And if everyone that is, you know, some people might want their NDA. But the ones you don't, I know there's people out there in agony like I've been.

And I would want to invite them to join me over here in freedom and that you are the way out. And you render powerless by bringing your voice to this imperative moment in history of ending forced arbitration and NDAs. Yeah. And this was also one thing that I was aware of. And when we were discussing things and doing the interviews, I would remind Andrea and say, hey, this could be a brief. reach? Are you okay with that? And she took a lot of time to decide if she, if she was, this was fully Andrea's choice. It had to fully be her choice. There was, there's no way around that. She had to be ready at this point in time. Yeah, you're really brave and I am just, you know,

in awe. Mali, it's a good day to be free. Yeah. Oh, thank you so much for, for talking us today. This is really important. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from the Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from The Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics, and science, who will help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you again on the next episode. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded the Daily Beast podcast at thedailybeast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider

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