The Daily Beast Podcast - Billionaire Trump Sets Out a Tip Jar Like an Underpaid Barista

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Labor reporter Hamilton Nolan joins the latest episode of The New Abnormal to discuss Trump’s cryptocurrency venture—and what it portends for the future of his presidency. Plus! A conversation with New Jersey Attorney General Matthew Platkin, whose office filed a challenge to Trump’s executive order that would get rid of birthright citizenship in the United States. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What a great show we have for you today.

New Jersey Attorney General Matthew J. Plattkin joins us to discuss his office's lawsuit against the Trump administration's attempts to end birthright citizenship, as well as arrived together a statewide program-paring law enforcement with mental health professionals to improve crisis response. Then journalist Hamilton Nolan, author of Hammer, Power, Inequality, and the Struggles for the Soul of Labor, joins us to discuss his essay, The Land of Greater Fools, which explores how scams and grifts have come to define America's political and economic landscape. But first, let's have some fun. So, Danielle, the theme of today's show is Father Knows Best. Oh, shit. Because what we are seeing is very clearly something that you and I have been talking about for a while and other people have to.

The Republican Party wants to turn back the clocks to the 50s. And as we've said before, you can argue as to whether that's 1950s or 1850s, and you could make a good case either way. But we'll stick with 1950s for now because what we're seeing is in some of these Trump executive orders and in some of the things that the Trump Justice Department is already doing, they're looking to return to America before the Civil Rights Act. And, you know, one of those things and perhaps the most obvious of those things is Trump issuing an executive order or actually revoking an executive order that was signed by Lyndon Johnson in 1965. And what this order did was the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, which you've probably heard of because any time you would apply for a job or see anything that you would see a little disclaimer or something saying that, you know, they were in compliance. with EEO standards or the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, it's a big thing. And it's become sort of a fabric of the American life because all it did was say, hey, the government cannot discriminate against people of color, against women.

When it comes to recruitment, hiring, training, anything employment-related. It basically prohibited the federal government from discriminating in employment, which is sort of something that you would think in the year 2024. we could take for granted and was not one of the battles we would have to fight all over again. But of course, we would be wrong because Trump has revoked that executive order. And there's a handful of other things that they're doing that make it clear that the 1950s is their target date. But let me turn it over to you, Danielle.

Why? You know, why is America? Why is America? That is honestly the best question. because I feel like we spent arguably the last two years, Andy, talking about what would happen if Donald Trump had a second term, if Project 2025 was operationalized. For more than two years, I feel like we've been saying that the goal is never about

delivering the American people anything. It is about repealing every advancement that has been made. And now while people, particularly some white folks, want to believe, well, oh, this is a good thing. Every gain that marginalized and underrepresented communities have gotten have also benefited white people. So when you look at those that have young kids that are going to be entering into college, into the workforce, grandchildren, what have you, do you want them chewing the air? Did you want them to be able to turn on the faucet and actually have clean water that comes out? Did you want them to get a quality public education?

Did you want your granddaughter to have the same goals and aspirations as like a grandson would? None of those things are going to be possible for the next four plus years. Because every signal that is being sent with every executive order is about centering the needs, the experiences, and the fragility of whiteness. And so I don't know what they think is going to happen magically when the clock goes all, the way back to 1950 or 1952 or whatever they're looking for. If they think that like, oh, now, you know, straight white Christian men are going to flourish again. No, it's actually not. Everyone is going to suffer. Everyone in this country is going to suffer greatly. And I know that,

you know, as Jonathan Metzell wrote in his book, Dying of Whiteness, that like, you know, there are racist white folks that would rather them suffer. And everyone, you know, everyone's, suffer so long as the person that they don't like suffers as well. And that's exactly where we are. Is that every single policy that is being turned back is going to harm all of America, not just a portion of it. Yeah. And I also think an important thing to remember is every time that they rant about things like DEI or affirmative action and pretend that what they want is a meritocracy, they are lying. And all you have to do is look at Trump's Cabinet picks to see that. Pete Hegseth is in no way qualified to be Secretary of Defense.

He is, for lack of a better term, he is an affirmative action higher if the affirmative action applies to Trump's sycophance. He is the definition of a mediocre white man. Tulsi Gabbard is not qualified to head our national intelligence apparatus. Cash Patel is not qualified to run the FBI. None of these people are qualified based on merit to be in the jobs that Trump wants them in. They are being nominated specifically for their ideology, specifically for their fealty to Donald Trump. And so please keep that in mind, people, every time you hear them claim that what they want is a return to merit because it's not what they want. What they want is for, again, mediocre at best white people to be elevated above people

of color. They want mediocre, at best, white men to be elevated above women, etc., etc., you know, put any group you want, any marginalized group you want into that sentence, and that's who they want mediocre white dudes elevated above. And that really is. That's a return. That's how shit, I'm not saying it hasn't been that way since 1950, but that's specifically how it was before a lot of the legislation in acts of the 1960s. And a lot of that was an attempt, whether it was, you know, successful or not, to sort of overturn that regime, the regime of white people, Uber-Alas, here in America. And the fact that they believe they need to roll all that back, because it's the only way that they can succeed. It speaks volumes. You know, the volumes that it speaks is, for instance,

the media spending the last several days debating on whether or not Elon Musk used a Nazi salute or as BBC reported a one-armed gesture or as other outlets had reported a one-arm Roman salute. And I said, I'm not going to waste time debating on what I see with my own eyes. All you have to do is look at that and then follow it with. all of the executive orders that have come out in just three days to erode the presence of black people, people of color, women, queer people, anyone who is not a white evangelical Christian from government, from any place of employment. Because when you're putting out these executive orders, the signal that you're sending to corporate media, like Amazon and Meta, who have just ended their diversity programs,

that include any programs that were elevating black people or queer people or women are now gone. And they know that they're not going to receive any pushback. They're going to be sued. And where is that going to end up at the Supreme Court? At the 6 to 3 to Supreme Court. Right. So I feel like this is what fascism looks like. This, it's here.

We don't have to debate whether or not it exists or whether or not all of our eyes are working. The policies are following the gesture. So what else are you supposed to make of this like logical connect the dots activity that we're doing? It often seems that a large swath of the media operates in ironically an information vacuum in the sense that, as you say, they'll look at something and say, well, we can't say for sure if this is what happened because they will not, you know, look into their own archives and see the things that that person or that movement has done and said before. And I wasted a lot of time on the last show, and I regret doing it, talking about whether Musk's salute was a Nazi salute or just a general fascist salute. And I did say it doesn't matter. But you're right. That was an absolute waste of my time and your time and the listener's time.

And I apologize for that. I eventually got to it doesn't matter. But I shouldn't have even brought it up because it didn't matter. We all know what the intention was there. And we know it because we know the other things that Elon Musk has said and done. done. And we knew that Trump was going to do stuff like this because we know what he said and done. And we knew, by the way, that all these people that Trump was hiring and all these things that he was doing were going to be straight out of the Project 2025 playbook, even though he

kept denying all of that. And the media sort of dutifully went along with that, you know, and made it into a he said, she said thing where, you know, it was like the critics say this, but Trump says he's never even read Project 2025. And it doesn't represent him. him. And guess what? We are what? Three, four days into this administration and the amount of Project 2025 philosophies and personnel that this administration has already incorporated is off the charts. And it's not going to slow down. We knew exactly what was going to happen. And look, to go along with, you know, getting rid of the equal opportunity employment thing, Trump has also, his justice department has now issued a freeze on its civil rights division.

And as the Washington Post, I believe, first reported, the Justice Department ordered the Civil Rights Division to halt much of its investigative activity dating from the Biden administration and not pursue new indictments, cases, or settlements. And basically, all the police reform agreements that had been negotiated with the Justice Department are now on hold and, let's be honest, are probably going away. And as the Post says, what this order does is largely shut. down the civil rights division of our U.S. Justice Department. We knew shit like this was coming.

And, you know, oftentimes you are told, oh, you're being alarmist. He's not going to be able to do all this. Thankfully, they're incompetent, blah, blah, blah. And we sit there all we want and we say, you know what, a lot of that was true in his first term. And guess what? It's not going to be true in his second term. And sure enough, here we are, Danielle. I mean, you know, but to your point, because I want to put an exclamation point on it. This means that for the next four years, minimum, minimum, that the United States no longer has a civil rights division inside of the Department of Justice.

Right. So what do we think that the repercussions of that is going to be throughout police departments across the country, throughout organizations and companies throughout the country, that they now can do what, they want that they have been given the green light to reinstate, reinforce, and elevate their bigotry and discrimination because this administration just gave you the thumbs up. And who are we then to rely on? Smaller nonprofit organizations whose funding is already

being put in question, whose tax-exempt status is already going to be put in question because of a handful of Democrats who also decided to vote alongside Republicans in the House to say that the president, the executive branch, should be allowed to determine whether or not a nonprofit organization is quote unquote terrorist adjacent. So like I just want people to understand and see like the picture that is coming into full view that everyone wanted to believe wasn't going to happen. And when you find your. praying for other people's inadequacies and incompetence as a win, you are already fucking behind. God help us. Yeah, I will say I'm praying for a lot more than that, but I'll leave it there.

It is the worst fears being realized, and that is not unexpected. It's just that simple. I sort of hate the we tried to tell you thing because I find it generally not helpful, so I'm going to get off that. But when I say that people like, Like you and I have been saying this for the last couple of years, it's so much more than the two of us. There were a lot of people who were warning that this was going to happen, and their warnings were dismissed as hyperbole, as exaggerations, as outright falsehoods. There's been a lot of sort of, like, this could never happen here type things. And boy, does that need to go out the window? Because we are watching it happen in real time. We are watching it happen here.

The question is there are people out there who are continuing the fight. And I'm not even talking about you and I saying words on a podcast. I'm talking about there are people out there. AOC has been on fire. She has been on absolute fire this past week. And Jesus, we need so many more of her in democratic leadership and a hell of a lot less of the people who keep saying, well, we're going to work with them. And, you know, when when Trump does some good things, we'll support them.

And when he does some bad things, well, shut up. Yep. I mean, my God, like, it's bad enough that Trump administration is trying to, you know, erase the 20th century. You're trying to erase the 21st century and pretend like that's how shit gets done these days. And it just doesn't. But there's another thing I just want to pivot to to highlight. And that is Trump freezing meetings, travel, communications, and hiring for the the National Institutes of Health. And there is absolutely no outcome of this that does not

result in people dying. Just straight up dying. Yep. Because think about how many things we have in this country that are health related from vaccines to medical techniques to medical advances in medical equipment that were made because of NIH grants, because of NIH councils, because of NIH bringing people across the country together to share information and stuff like that. And we've known, look, Trump hates the NIH. They all hate science. I really don't know how else to put it, but it's just this is literally going to end up with some people dying.

And I guess we're going to find out how many Americans are okay with that, Danielle. I said this the other day. There was a young white man who gave a TED talk. I want to say it was a couple of years ago. And in his TED talk, he talked about the fact that the Western empires were sunseting, that they were crumbling. And that the next century was going to be focused on the global majority, which is black people and people of color, which is the continent of Africa and the Middle East being where the sun is going to be rising. And I look at this and I say, wow, you're stopping all civil rights. You're stopping all advancements in science, health, and education. And the outcome that they think

is that America is going to be great again when literally every bit of advancement that we have made like physically, intellectually, mentally over the last century plus is now being rescinded. and you're signaling to all of our allies that we're not to be trusted because with each election, we're either one foot in or one foot out of like fighting climate change and fighting for democracy. I don't know what more signs folks need that like America's time is done. In all honesty, like if you're not investing in science, in health, in technology, in like the advancement of humanity, how are you going to like to be a service, how are you going to have any offerings to the rest of the world? You're not. They are making us irrelevant on the world stage. And that to me, like, is, it's wild. But when you look at Russia and Hungary

and these other places that are shells of a country where only the top 1% have all of the wealth and they could give a fuck about everybody else, does anybody care what Hungary is doing in terms of like their research and what Russia? No, because they no longer have anything to offer. And that's, that's America. That's America under MAGA. And, you know, for all of these CEOs and these billionaires and their and their shareholders, I'd like to see how they're going to fare a year from now. But, you know, I'm not a business person. But I would think that killing your workforce is a sure way to like cut your evaluations. But what do I know? But Danielle, we have generative AI. Yeah, a $500 billion investment, so that'll be great.

Yeah, so that we can be told to put glue on our pizza. Mm-hmm, mm-mm-mm. It's on you. Folks, I am very excited to welcome to the new abnormal. The Attorney General of New Jersey, Matthew J. Plattkin, joins us today to talk about a series of really important lawsuits and work and policies that are coming out of your office right now. AG Placken. And so I want to start today with the very large lawsuit that is being mounted against the Trump administration just days into Donald Trump's second term, which is with regard to the executive order that was issued to end birthright citizenship. Your office, along with several

other states are leading the charge against this executive order. Can you walk us through it, please? Sure. Well, first of all, Danielle, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. And the lawsuit we filed on the second, I guess the first full day of the Trump administration on Tuesday, really is about ensuring that the rule of law is followed in this country. Birthright citizenship has been a right that has been recognized in the United States for centuries. It was enshrined in the Constitution 157 years ago after the Civil War. And the only period of time that someone born on American soil wasn't unquestionably an American citizen was the period of the Civil War when in the wake of the Dred Scott decision,

there was the dispute over whether descendants of slaves would be treated as American citizens. And so the president cannot just write out of the Constitution, a provision that's been there for a century and a half with the stroke of Le Pen, and the presidents in this country are powerful, but they're not kings. And so the lawsuit that we filed, along with 17 other states in the District of Columbia and the city of San Francisco, is about ensuring that the rule of law is adhered to. And, you know, there's been a lot of discussion about the rule of law in this country. And I think this is just a very clear example of what that means. We're treating President Trump no differently than any other president. No president has

tried to do what he did on Monday in over a century. I'm so grateful for you and the other states and municipalities that have joined in this lawsuit. My question with regard to it, though, is while we know that this birthright citizenship is enshrined in the Constitution, we also know that this lawsuit, if it works its way up the channel, could possibly end up at the Supreme Court, which is a six to three Supreme Court, that we have seen does not recognize precedent, even if that precedent is hundreds of years old. And so without giving away all of your strategies, what is your thinking around how this case navigates itself up to a Supreme Court that has basically by providing Donald Trump back

in July of 2024 with immunity, providing presidents with immunity, treating the presidency now as if it is that of a king, how do you prepare to navigate these new realities? Look, the Supreme Court certainly has shifted right. We all know that. I think we saw in 2022, the one-two punch of the Bruin decision and the Dobbs decision as clear examples of just really dangerous and reckless decisions that have come out of the court. Obviously, you mentioned the immunity decision, something I don't think I ever thought I'd see come out of the court. But we've also seen the court understand that clear statements of law in the Constitution need to be followed. And, you know, You know, the majority follows with a textualist, originalist approach. Let's start with the text of the 14th Amendment. Again, an amendment that was enacted right after the Civil War to ensure that we wouldn't again debate about whether somebody born on American soil is an American citizen. This is a really extreme order that the president signed.

It's unprecedented and it's extreme. And birthright citizenship was first upheld in the 1890s, right around the same time that they were deciding Plessy versus Ferguson. So it wasn't exactly the most liberal Supreme Court that you've ever seen, just like we're not dealing with the most exactly liberal Supreme Court now. But I'm confident that we're going to win this case in the courts. We wouldn't have brought the case if we didn't feel confident in that. But we also need to win in the court of public opinion. People need to understand how extreme this is.

We all know birthright citizens. You know, I live in New Jersey in the shadow of the statute of liberty in the state of Ellis Island, where millions of people came here and raised. American children in our state. And that's a story across this country. We're not talking about people who've committed violent crimes. We're talking about children born in America. And one thing the order doesn't say is what they are. It just says what they're not. It says they're not American citizen. Okay, so what are they? They have no ties to any other country. They're not citizens of any other country. You create this permanent underclass of people in this country who can't get the same access to health care and education. I don't think people voted for that. And I think Americans know,

that babies born in this country should be treated the same way every other child is treated who is born here. 100%. In sticking with the protections that you're looking to put into place in the state of New Jersey, but also to be a model for how things can be done throughout the country, one of the other issues up for debate right now is the health care access for DACA recipients. We know that Donald Trump and the Trump administration on the campaign trail has said that they are going to do away with DACA do away with the status for dreamers, cut off access that they have received through that program. And you right now are leading the national fight to protect the health care of DACA recipients.

Can you speak to that and why this is important, not just for them, but. for the health and well-being of your state and the country. Let's remember who dreamers are for a minute, Danielle. Dreamers are people who only know this country, who pay taxes, who run businesses, who've served in law enforcement, who have contributed to the fabric of American life, who are raising American children here, including American children that the order signed by the president doesn't even affect. He's not saying Dreamers' kids who were born years ago are not no longer Americans.

They're even acknowledging those kids. our Americans. So when you attack dreamers, you're attacking some of the best people in our society. And we have been proud in New Jersey to stand up for dreamers and lead the fight to protect them for years now. In 2018, when the first Trump administration stopped defending the DACA program in Texas, when Texas sued to challenge it, New Jersey stepped up and was the sole state to intervene in that lawsuit and defend the program. We've been litigating now for over six years. Just last Friday, we got a decision on that case that narrowed the injunction just to the state of Texas. So for 49 other states, thanks to New Jersey's advocacy, the DACA program remains in effect.

But certainly the incoming Trump or now the current Trump administration has made clear, and President Trump has made clear, his hostility to that program. And again, dreamers are not criminals. Nobody is saying we're going to fight the president on violent criminals. So that's just a complete lie. Dreamers are people who have done nothing wrong here. And with the health care litigation, We've stood up and defended Dreamers' right to access the Affordable Care Act Exchange,

which is all we're saying is that they can buy health care. Right, right. We're saying they can buy health care for themselves for their American kids. So if they're kids, we don't have to wait until their kids get deathly ill and have to go to the emergency room, that they can get access to a physician or a dentist, the same way my kids do or anybody else's kids in America do. It's not a handout. It's not a giveaway.

It's pretty basic. And so when you're attacking dreamers, when you're attacking their right to get health care, people just understand it's not making anybody safer. It's hurting the economy. It's hurting our states. And it's hurting American kids. And, you know, I'm proud to lead that fight. I'm not going to stop just because the president doesn't like it.

You know, how do you go about helping people of your state understand that our faiths are intertwined, our faiths? And so saying, well, I don't know a DACA recipient or I don't know a dreamer. I don't know an immigrant. So like, this isn't my fight to be in. Like, what do you say to those people? I think the president wants to talk about immigrants as if every single one of them is a murderer or a rapist or some kind of violent criminal. And look, I'm the chief law enforcement officer in my state.

I care deeply about the public safety of our residents. And I'll put our public safety record up against any state in the country. You know, you're six times more likely to be shot and killed. in Mississippi than you are in New Jersey, all right? So I don't see Mississippi with us on many of these lawsuits, but I'm not going to be lectured by them either about how to keep our residents safe. But we also got to tell the story that people understand. I really believe it's a story that people understand. Yes, we're going to hold accountable people who commit violent crimes, and no one's protecting them. But millions of people have made homes in America that are immigrants.

We're all immigrants in some former fashion. It's a story in my family. They came through L.S. Island. I'm sitting in Norke. They came to the city of Norc. They built a life here. I'm sure they never imagined that one day their grandson would be standing up for the rights of people, generations later, to have that same experience. Or my wife's family, who moved here from China and built a business work 364 days a year for 30 years to raise my wife, who's now partnering with me to raise our two American kids. And that's a story that people understand. That is the American story. And so when he threatens birthright citizenship, when he threatens American kids' rights, to get access to health care.

You know, the American public didn't vote for that. That's not what people actually believe. And we've got to tell all this story about what we're talking about. We can walk and chew gum. We can keep you safe and we can keep American kids and their families intact when they're doing nothing wrong, when they're contributing to our society, when they're building businesses, when they're helping our economy. And, you know, we shouldn't be afraid of that.

We shouldn't be afraid of telling the positive story just because people are out there demonizing whole classes of our society. No, and I think that it's more important than ever to be uplifting the positive stories. I think that it's more important than ever to show who the immigrant population is, how they contribute to the entirety of our society, and why they belong, and why we should be creating safe, healthy spaces for them to belong. In keeping with this vein of you and New Jersey leading the way, there is a program that you have launched. to kind of deal with what we have seen over the past several years as police officers have been stretched in their capacities to deal with all types of calls that come in through 911. And we've seen, unfortunately, the rise in deathly shootings of people who were not criminals, who were not violent, but who were in the midst of mental health crises.

But our law enforcement is not trained to deal with people in. mental health crises. So you have created a new program called Arrived Together. Talk to us about this really innovative pilot and how it has spread around your state. Well, Danielle, I really appreciate you highlighting. I'm incredibly proud of Arrived together and I'm proud of the law enforcement community in New Jersey that's embraced it. You know, look, I'm a lawyer. My wife's a psychologist. I definitely cannot do what she does. And on most days, I don't think she likes a lawyer. So I know she doesn't want to do what I do. You know, so the idea that we've asked law enforcement in this country, because of the fact that anyone in crisis, understandably, calls 911, we've asked them to be

everything to all people. We've asked them to be not just cops, but psychologists and social workers and addiction counselors and everything in between is just unfair and unrealistic. And so what arrived together essentially is a recognition that we can provide a different kind of response that keeps everybody safe. It keeps the civilians who are struggling with what we know is an epidemic in this country, a mental health epidemic. It keeps them safer. It keeps our officers safer. It keeps our communities safer. And so it started as a pilot in one community. And now we're the first state in the country to have an alternative response program statewide, which means we respond to calls a mental health or emotional distress that come into 911 with a mental health first response. Sometimes that

involves a law enforcement officer. Sometimes it doesn't. And we now have a ton of data. You here. This isn't just a handful of cases. We have like 6,500 cases. You go on our website and see them all, and we've had zero injuries, zero injuries to an individual who's suffering, to an officer, or to anybody else. And we've essentially eliminated arrests when they don't need to be made, and we've got people to health care that's going to help them. And it's amazing when you see the response to this program. You see it from officers who love it, who have embraced it and who have realized, like, they're able to do their job more effectively, and they can go out and they can stop bad guys. They don't have to be serving as mental health counselors when there's other people who can do that

more effectively. You see it from communities that are embracing this program because we've asked each community when we've gone in to expand, what do you want to see out of it? And then we've listened to them. And you can see it in the data. And so I'm extremely proud that we're the first state in the country to have this. I do think it's a model. And I think it's a way that we can deliver services and provide safety and health care services in our states that reduces the risk of injury and that gets people better health care. I think that that is extraordinary because we have to recognize too that our law enforcement, to your point, can't be everything to everyone. And so if we want new behavior, we have to have new skill sets built. We have to have new strategies and new

policies put together in order for that to happen. What do you hope other states can take from this program that you have launched? And what is your hope as we move into, you know, again, a time in our country that is precarious to say the least? Like I said, you know, we have the best trained law enforcement officers in the country, and I would argue the best law enforcement officers in the country. And our public safety record is clear. For the last two years, we've had the lowest number of shootings the state has ever had. Two years ago, we said we're going to have under a thousand shootings in the state of New Jersey, and people literally laughed at us. And last year, we were under 800. So I will put our public safety record up against anyone's. And with Arrived together,

what we've said is like, we don't have to demonize anybody. Law enforcement loves this program. Because what happens when they're asked to do everything is they get hurt too. There's been injuries to officers. They're not equipped to handle somebody who is in the midst of a mental health crisis, who's not causing a criminal risk, who's really posing a mental health or health care risk. And so by working with law enforcement and our mental health providers, we've been able to help people and build up trust in law enforcement. So I think this is a win-win, regardless of what kind of state you're in, regardless of who you are or where you stand on the political spectrum, you know, this is a type of program that we can do that keeps people safe, that gets their health care and allows law enforcement to do what they do best, which is stop crimes. And I think it's something that everybody should be looking at across the country. Well, I just want to thank you for the work that you're doing on behalf of the people of New Jersey, for the modeling that you're doing, for other states to be able to follow suit and making the time to join us on the new abnormal.

Really, really appreciate you and wish you all the best on the road ahead. Can I just say, though, I love the podcast. I'm thrilled to be here, but I think I've been abnormal probably for a long time. So I don't know if you fit right in. Yeah, I think I fit right in. My wife would love to know that it's only a new. thing that I'm abnormal. So this is going to help me at home. I love it. I really appreciate you having me, Daniel. Thank you. Thank you. Hamilton Nolan is a journalist who covers inequality and politics and labor for outlets such as in these times and The Guardian, as well as on his own substack called How Things Work. He joined me last year to discuss his excellent book, The Hammer, Power, Inequality,

and the Struggle for the Soul of Labor. And he's back to talk about a piece he wrote called The Land of Greater Fools, America as a Big Con. Hamilton, thanks for joining us again. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. There's so much good stuff in your piece. So I'm just going to start the way you do. You write, successful criminals and politicians both understand the wisdom of going big.

Talk about what you mean there. Well, you know, thinking about Donald Trump coming back in office, one thing I think that Trump realizes that the Democrats in particular probably don't is, you know, it tends to take the same amount of political. capital to do something small as something big. And so, you know, in the same way that, you know, I talk about it's a felony to steal a thousand dollars, but it's also a felony to steal a billion dollars. So you might as well steal a billion dollars. In politics, it takes more or less the same amount of political capital to do something small, a small reform as it does to do something big.

And so, you know, in the same way that, for example, getting the ACA pass probably took as much political capital as getting Medicare for all would have. Donald Trump is somebody who comes in and starts doing all these huge drastic changes that we're seeing right now. And he realizes, I think, that doing big things takes about the same amount of political capital as doing small things. And so crooks and smart politicians have that in common. Yeah. And one of the things you're talking about here is the meme coins that Trump launched right before his inauguration, which seems like it was not covered to the extent that it should have been, at least with regard to, as you put it, the level of corruption that's on full display here. I mean, I really had to laugh because I still don't think

that this has been fully digested. I mean, I guess you could say this was smart by Trump in the sense that he did it right before inauguration. So there was this huge event that was going to suck up all the news coverage. But I mean, this is the incoming president of the United States launching a coin, which is really nothing, which really amounts to a funnel to send money to the president from anybody in the world. So it's a big bucket for bribery is essentially what this meme coin is. I mean, his family just set out a tip jar and said, give us money. And he made billions and billions of dollars on paper already from this thing that is not even a business. it's just, it's literally just a funnel for money to the president-elect and his family.

I can't even think of a comparison in history of something that is this clearly corrupt and clearly set up to enrich the incoming president of the United States. And I still don't feel like this has been fully digested by the media or the public. No, I couldn't agree more. And, you know, you said it's like a tip jar that that's just like, you know, sitting in the White House or on the desk of the Oval Office. And in a sense, what you're also saying is this is exactly the wisdom of going big. Like it would be unethical and whatever else to put a tip jar on the desk in the Oval Office.

So why not just be unethical and create a meme coin that stands for nothing but allows people to funnel money to you? Yeah, I mean, look, people were mad at Hunter Biden for taking, you know, positions that he probably was not qualified for. And I completely agree that that is an example of sort of one degree from president political corruption. You know, the president's son enriching himself just by the fact of being the president's son. That is orders of magnitude less corrupt than what Trump just did, which is to just launch this thing that made him billions of dollars. You know, if somebody handed the president $100,000 in a bag, everybody would be like, oh my gosh, this is corruption. but taking in billions of dollars from a meme coin, which does not even exist as a real thing or a real asset, has been kind of glossed over, I feel like.

Yeah, and it's sort of brought to mind, for me, at least, our not so beloved mayor here in New York, Eric Adams. He got free hotel rooms and meals from Turkish nationals in return for letting them open a 36-story consulate that had a lot of safety concerns about it. And you read that, and I remember at the time, and a lot of people, including, me being like, really? That's what you sold us out for? Yeah, it's true. I mean, I always think of the United Auto Workers' presidents who went to prison for basically taking like free golf clubs and trips. You know, same example. Like, wow, you didn't think big. I mean, here's Donald Trump doing mostly we think about incoming elected officials divesting themselves from assets. And this

is, you know, the opposite of that, creating an asset to serve as a pipeline for money to the president. It's unreal. So as I mentioned at the top, the title of your piece is The Land of Greater Fools, and this is a reference to something known as the Greater Fool Theory. Can you explain what that is? Yeah, the Greater Fool Theory is just a concept kind of in the investing and finance world, which is basically like you can pay whatever you want for an asset as long as you can find a greater fool to buy it from you. So you may say, you know, you paid too much for that house, but as long as there is a greater fool that you can find to pay more than that, it's okay.

And, you know, I use that concept because I feel like kind of what's being perpetrated on America now is that we're all being treated as the greater fool in this country. I mean, the ethic of not just Donald Trump himself, but I think the entire world that is associated with Donald Trump, the people who are rising to the top of our government right now are people who got there by truth. even the American people as the greater fool. And that's kind of what we're all being subjected to politically, economically, and otherwise right now. Yeah, it's a really, really great analogy. And one of the things you talk about in the piece is how so many Democrats, elected Democrats,

are setting themselves up as greater fools. Talk about that for a minute. Part of the way I think that Donald Trump and leaders like Donald Trump, you know, strong men leaders like that work is that they make getting anything done dependent on flattering the leader. So everybody in politics right now, in politics or who needs anything from the political world from the federal government, understands now that we are in a situation where if you want something from the federal government, the way to get that is to flatter Donald Trump. And so we're already seeing, you know, for example, Phil Murphy, the Democratic governor of New Jersey saying, hey, Mr. Trump, I'd like to work with you on congestion pricing.

You know, everybody is trotting out their pet issue. You've seen labor union leaders come out and say, hey, Mr. Trump, if you're serious about caring about the working class, we want to work with you on trade policy. We want to work with you on worker-friendly policies. It's sort of this unfolding process of everybody, you know, even among Democrats and among people who are not allied with Trump, everybody is saying to themselves, well, if I can get on his good side, I can cajole him into being with me on my pet issue. And the point I try to make about that is that, you know, this is how strong men submit their power.

Because if you convince the opposition that they need to flatter you like they are in order to get anything done, what you're also doing is neutering the opposition from opposing you. Because what we really need is everybody who is not in Trump world coming together right now a former united front of opposition and say literally, we are staring down fascism in this country. You have a man who is coming in, who is vowing to carry out mass deportations that will be incredibly destructive, who is pursuing racist policies of a sort that we haven't seen in more than half a century in this country, completely rolling back affirmative action and civil rights law in this country. We need a unified front of opposition.

and inherent in being a unified front of opposition is that you're not going to stand up and say, hey, Mr. Trump, we want to work with you on our pet issue. You know, we have to recognize that that is a tool that Trump is using to neuter the opposition. It's slightly different, but there was a thing that this made me think of that I had talked about on an earlier episode of this podcast, which is that on the same day that President Joe Biden issued preemptive pardons for a bunch of his family members because he was afraid that the incoming administration would go after them. He also greeted Donald Trump at the White House by saying, welcome home. Yeah. And it's like, how do you square those two things in your mind?

I don't understand it. It's very depressing, you know, and watching the inauguration, I'm here in D.C. I covered the inauguration. I had to watch the actual ceremony on TV like everybody else, because only VIPs got in. But, you know, watching that ceremony on television and seeing the picture of all the Democrats, you know, the Bidens, Kamala Harris, Obama, Clintons, sitting there as a backdrop to Trump, you know, shaking his hand as he went up to give a speech, calling them all corrupt and evil. And, you know, it's like, no wonder people don't take the Democrats seriously. As you just said, you know, you can't spend the campaign season saying this man is the threats to democracy. And then as soon as he wins, say, welcome in, sir, welcome in. We're going to come and

it's shake your hand and it's in the inauguration. I mean, you have to pick one. And so the Democrats are showing why I think they lost, you know, why the public doesn't really take them seriously and why Trump doesn't take them seriously as an opposition force. You know, this is why you have to toughen up and understand what you're dealing with at this point. Yeah, it's really bad what's going on with the Democrats right now. I think this whole sort of, you know, like you said, I don't care if you're what are the Democrats sitting while he's giving his inauguration speech. And and you're not standing up and applauding his lines. You're still there.

You're still giving him a patina of legitimacy by being there. Right. We're never supposed to compare people to Hitler. But the reason people compare people with Hitler is because it's easy way to illustrate a point. But, you know, if that was Hitler being elected president, would they all come and sit behind him? No, they wouldn't. And yet sort of, you know, essentially during the campaign, you're trying to convince the public that this is as great a threat to democracy as somebody like that coming in. You can't have it both ways.

Yeah. One of the other things you read about in the piece is the assumption that scams are the way to get ahead has gotten so big that it now envelops something approaching the majority of this country. How scary is this? It's very scary. You know, I think that, you know, the American dream is all been a myth, right? I mean, America in many ways, the ideals of America have always been a myth in the sense America has never lived up to its ideals.

But I think, you know, the presence of that myth is. important because those ideals set the direction that we are supposed to be moving in. So even, you know, even when the left points out all the ways that America has failed, which are very true, you know, it is still important that those American myths exist and are bought into because they, they can give you momentum when you are trying to make this country better. And I feel like what we see now, with not just Trump winning the first time, which, which could be somewhat dismissed as a fluke, but Trump coming back and winning again is that, you know, those ideals, the American myths, are even crumbling now. We're not even fooling ourselves that we have high-minded ideals in this

country. You know, the people who are ascendant in this country are hustlers, crypto billionaires. I mean, that is the embodiment of the hustler, the con man, you know, and these are the people who are ascendant in this country right now. And I think that it's dangerous, you know, it's not just that Trump himself is dangerous. It's not just that the people around Trump are dangerous. It's that the way I think that people are seeing, you know, how you get things done in America, the path to success and power in America, those stories that we tell ourselves are getting more poisonous and meaner right now, I think. Yeah, and I was thinking, you know, about how much this has metastasized outside of just the straight political realm. And it's obviously really noticeable in the

tech world. And I know, you know, people like Ed Zittron have been screaming to the heavens about this for a while now. But it's Sam Altman making ridiculous promises about open AI to get billions in investments. It's Musk basically saying every five years that he's five years from putting people on Mars. And it's also Musk on a smaller, but I don't know, maybe even more telling level, claiming he's one of the world's top ranked players of a video game when it's very clear he paid someone to level up his character. It's like everything is a scam. to make more money, which you then use to devise the next scam. Right. And I mean, look, you know, when we talk about inequality and the dangers of inequality

and the dangers of having billionaires and now, you know, having people with hundreds of billions of dollars in this country, I mean, one of the key reasons why inequality is unhealthy for society is that you put so much power in the hands of these few individuals that now stuff like Elon Musk's, you know, personality flaws are actually going to affect all of us. I mean, you are giving these people too much power. When you give somebody $100 billion or $200 billion, you know, it's not just an economic issue of that's an unfair distribution of wealth. It's that this freaking weird idiot has so much power that his flaws will now be manifested throughout the entire federal government and will hurt all of us, you know. So I think it's important for people

to understand that. We're about to live through a demonstration of why it is unhealthy and dangerous for people to have that much money. It's because all of their stupid ideas get imposed on the rest of us. Yeah. And another thing you write is that Trump is very good at taking things to extremes and overwhelming his opponents. And everything just sort of gets, I think the way you put it was, oh, he's doing something bad. And you say it's vitally important to maintain a baseline of normal behavior in your mind. Yeah, I do think that it can be very difficult for all of us to remember what normal is supposed to be. You know, you have to maintain in your minds an idea of, for example, a baseline of government ethics, you know, what is a baseline level behavior that we expect

from elected officials? These are expectations that have been around for generations in America. And when people go over those lines, we're expected to hold them accountable. The public is expected to hold them accountable. And one of the things that happens with somebody like Donald Trump is he's so transgressive of this stuff that it's hard to maintain in your mind the memory of where those lines are supposed to be. And so, you know, we all have to kind of level set and remember because once you do not just one bad thing, but a hundred bad things or a thousand bad things, we still need to hold

ourselves to those standards that we believe in. And that's important, I think, not just for the public, but it's really important for the press, you know, extremely important. Because if the press starts to, starts to slide and compare Donald Trump to a standard that only applies to Donald Trump, you're letting the guy off the hook more easily than you should. Yeah, I wouldn't worry. I don't think there's any chance that they'll do that, Hamilton. But in all seriousness, that sort of feels like a lot of the coverage around Musk's salute was sort of, you know, it was sort of the mealy mouth coverage from a lot of the press. It's like the best they could, a lot of them could come up with was, you know, it was the some say formulation. Yeah. It's interesting. I think that there's, there's a kind of

dynamic where like, we can't believe that we're living through something bad, you know, or that we're living through something as bad as we actually are. And so, you know, even when the guy gives a Nazi salutes, people and the press will find ways to deny that rather than to simply accept the fact that we are living through fascism. I mean, it's going to be actually, I think the first step out of this is when people accept that fascism is really becoming a reality and stop denying what's in front of our eyes. Amen to that. Hamilton, thanks so much for joining us. Folks go to Hamilton-Nolan.com to check out Hamilton's substack. There's so much good writing there. I really appreciate your time, man.

Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it. Danielle Moody. Andy leaving. So. Yeah, I got nothing. Who's your fuck that guy? Yeah.

You're like to end this week, this good week, this week in hell. We don't even know where we are, people. But what we are certain of is who several of our fuck that guys are for the week. So, you know, as it turns out, it's wild. to believe that we are only days into this new regime. But these executive orders and the threats of ice raids and internment camps for the undocumented is already showing signs of massive wreckage to the food industry. So according to the new republic, quote, fear of increased ice raids have already negatively affected the nation's agriculture sector, causing alarm that food prices could

skyrocket in the near future as a result of Donald Trump's aggressive immigration policies. Bakersfield, California saw a massive drop-off in the number of field workers showing up for work Tuesday, while ICE agents in unmarked Chevy Suburbans rounded up and detained immigrants in the area, profiling individuals they believe to be field workers. These are people, these fucking agriculture producers, these factory workers and CEOs, these folks voted for Donald Trump. They voted to harm their own industry, thinking that, oh, well, he's just going to pop, pop, fill in the blank with whatever bullshit you told yourself to make it acceptable for you to vote or not vote at all. and not really give a damn about how this was actually going to impact, not only yourself, but everyone around you.

The way that we have our produce in our grocery stores, whenever we feel the hunger, the desire for a fucking avocado or a piece of lettuce, is because there are thousands upon thousands of immigrants that are in the fields picking our produce at well below market. rate, which is how we end up with cheap produce. So when you no longer have a workforce that is going to do that, I don't think AI is going to be doing it. I don't think that we have robotics that are going to be doing it. So essentially, 31 or 32 percent of America just voted for their grocery prices, which they were convinced that Donald Trump was going to bring down to skyrocket in the next

couple of months for our food to literally rot on the vine because there will be no one to pick it. But since there are so many unemployed white men, I wonder if they'll be running out into the fields, taking the jobs back from the quote-unquote immigrants that stole them from them. Somehow, I think that we'll probably all starve to death before we see that happen. So for that reason, the fucking agricultural industry that back Donald Trump 100%, fuck you. Fuck all of those guys. Yeah, I have nothing but empathy for the workers. And I have zero empathy for the owners.

And I don't know. Every day I sound more and more like Marx. It's wild. It's absolutely wild. Oh, shit. Yeah. I don't know how else. to put it. Fuck those guys. So Andy, how are you closing out this Godforsaken week with your fuck that guy?

Well, I'm going to give a huge fuck that guy to the Democrats who have decided that they need to help Donald Trump and the Republican Party get rid of immigrants. And the people I'm talking about here are the ones that voted for the Lake and Riley Act, which I have covered a lot with guests on this podcast, so I won't get into it other than to say it is an absolutely heinous bill that basically gives state's attorneys general the power to sue the federal government. If these attorney generals, and we're talking here about Republican attorneys general, if they decide that the federal government isn't deporting people fast enough, et cetera, and it calls for ICE to detain and deport any undocumented immigrant who is arrested

for a crime of theft, even if it's a low-level theft. And importantly, that is arrested, not convicted, and not even necessarily charged. Just if you were rounded up in an arrest and you had nothing to do with the crime, this bill calls for ICE to detain and deport you. It's an absolutely horrible bill. And in the Senate, 12 Democrats voted to pass it. I'll read some of the names, John Federman, I guess not. a surprise at this point. Mark Kelly, I think about how his name was put forward as a serious

vice presidential candidate. John Assoff and Rafael Warnock, which is really disappointing, and I get that they're in tough seats. But at a certain point, it's like, what is the point of you being in that seat if you're going to vote for legislation like this? This is not a small thing. This is a huge bill, and it's a hugely terrible bill. Alyssa Sloth. John Shaheen, Jackie Rosen, Gary Peters. Did I mention Ruben Gallego? Because that's incredibly disappointing. And I know he's from Arizona. But again, if you run for a seat, if you run to be the Democratic holder of that seat, yes, there are certain compromises you're going to have to make. There are certain things you should not compromise on. And this was one of them. And you failed. There were, I want to say, 41 House Democrats that voted for it. Some of those names are Henry Quayar, Ritchie Torres, Tom Swazi on Long Island.

There's too many to name. But rest assured that all of you are part of my fuck that guy for this. I get what you're saying with regard to the tough seats that some Democrats have. But like, you know, to that point, it's just like what's the fucking point of you being in these tough seats if you're not going to stand firm in your values? If a Democrat, oh, you know, somebody said the other day, like, oh, remember how y'all said vote blue no matter who? And we see how well that's working out for us thus far? It's like, no, if you don't have the values and the integrity to be a firm, solid like AOC and Jasmine Crockett type of fucking Democrat, then like, don't bother. Because the Republicans don't need any fucking help right now.

And it doesn't bode well with the base, which is already in shambles, for you to put bipartisanship ahead of actual recognition of the danger that we now find ourselves in. And the little that can be done, even if it's just a PR and communication stunt to like organize collectively, we're not voting with Republicans at all on a fucking thing unless we get something for it. Like, what's the point? This is why 10 million people stayed home. Oh, my God. Fuck those guys.

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