The Daily Beast Podcast - Breitbart Wants Its Followers to Get Vaxxed to Own the Libs w/Rep. Ro Khanna

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

Jeet Heer tells Molly Jong-Fast about a candidate from the Canadian presidential race whose big issue was dairy control management. Will Sommer and Swin Suebsaeng, Daily Beast reporters and hosts of the Fever Dreams podcast, discuss the ways that outlets like Fox News and Breitbart are approaching vaccinations with their stubborn audiences. And Congressman Ro Khanna from California joins to discuss the state’s recall results and gets cornered by Molly about Dianne Feinstein. If you haven't heard, every single week The New Abnormal does a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast’s membership program. where Sometimes we interview Senators like Cory Booker or the folks who explain our world in media like Jim Acosta or Soledad O’Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner and sometimes its just discussing the fuckery. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a Beast Inside member where you’ll support The Beast’s fearless journalism. Plus! You’ll also get full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member head to newabnormal.thedailybeast.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Jong-Fast and welcome to The Daily Beast, The New Abnormal. I'm a left-wing pundit and an editor-at-large at the Daily Beast. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. Our world has been turned up day down. On the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and figure out how to get ourselves out of it. And I'm producer Jesse Kennan. I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails.

We have a super interesting episode today. Congressman Roe Kana from California's 17th District is going to talk to us about California's changing its recall system and what's going on in Congress. Then Aswan Subisang and Will Summer, the host of the Daily Beast Fever Dreams podcast, will talk to us about this weekend's failed January 6th Prisoners Rally and how the MAGA movement is mutating. But first, we have Nation columnist and Substacker, as well as returning favor. it Jeet Here. Welcome back to the new abnormal Jeet here. Good to be here, as always. We're such fans of yours. So you are up north in the north, and in the north, you are having a little known election. That's right, yes. It was actually a kind of unexpected or an election of choice. We last had election in 2019. In theory, the liberals who have a minority government and have to

use the NDP to support them to govern, they could have run out for another two years, but Trudeau decided to call the election as he was running high in the polls. The fourth wave hit. There's new restrictions and the very vibrant anti-vaxing movement. And so things are much more complicated

than I think Trudeau expected. It's kind of a roll of the dice. I mean, it looks like the liberals might get back in with a minority government, although it's also possible you have a conservative minority. You need to explain all of this for people who are stupid like us. we don't have a coalition government.

We don't even understand the idea here. So can you just give us a quick explainer? In the United States, there's two parties, really, like the Democrats and the Republicans. In Canada, you know, there's like six parties. You know, there's the liberals who are kind of like the Joe Biden Democrats and the conservatives who are maybe like the Mitt Romney Republicans. But we also, and they're the two parties that usually govern, but they don't always get a majority. and if you don't get a majority of seats in parliament,

then you have to require other parties to support you. And usually the liberals, if they have a minority, they require to use the NDP, which is headed by guy named Jack Mead Singh. And they're kind of like the Bernie Sanders Democrats. They're like more labor-oriented, more government intervention. And that's the group that Bernie actually is supporting. Well, yeah, I mean, the interesting thing is,

and I want to really use this podcast to complain about foreign intervention in Canadian politics. Yes. I was hoping someone would come in here and talk about foreign intervention in Canadian politics. Which foreign is intervening first? Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton endorsed Justin Trudeau. Then Bernie Sanders endorsed Jack Meets Singh and the NDP. You know, like all the joys and pleasures of the 2016 presidential primaries, are being replayed in Canada.

Oh, Jesus Christ. So there's kind of like the left is a little split. We also have a smallish green party, which usually, you know, gets one or two or three seats. More significantly, in Quebec, there's a Quebec party, the Black Quebecois. Also, the separatist party causes complications. And in this election, what's really interesting is that there's a breakaway conservative right-wing party, which is a kind of like a Trumpist party led by this guy, Maxime Bernier, who's popularly known as Mad Max. I shouldn't laugh because we know what happens when we laugh.

We get terrible, terrible presidents. He's a former conservative and actually very high up. He had been in the Harper government in a variety of cabinet positions, including he was like foreign minister, which is like a very senior position, like Secretary of State. And then you'll like this. I think you'll find him an interesting guy because he had hooked up with this biker chick who had all sorts of friends in the,

Biker gangs, who just don't ride motorcycles, but also kind of engaged in criminal activities. And so he had this biker chick girlfriend, and he was foreign minister. And, oh, oops, he left sensitive documents in her apartment. Jesus Christ. And so he was kind of like demoted and there's a little bit of a scandal. But he recovered from that. And then he ran in 2017 for the leadership of the Conservative Party and came very close. I mean, actually, he got more votes, but as one of these cases we have, like, sort of super delegates or whatever.

And he was kind of shut out and he got mad. And he created his own party on the issue. And this is even more Canadian and hilarious. His big issue was dairy control management. Oh, good. I've been hoping that a party would really address that. What the hell is that? In Canada, as in the United States, like, farmers are heavily subsidized because we want to keep our farmers going.

and that all the parties support this, but he had this libertarian idea, we should just have a free market of milk. And so he created this party, the People's Party of Canada, dairy supply management. And guess what? This was the stock of the century.

This did not actually, was not the set the prairies on fire. This was not a winning issue. They got like 1.6% of the votes. And he himself got only 600 votes in his own riding in 2019. Dairy management, was not working. Grand V, xenophobia and anti-vaccin.

Went and down. Yeah. The PPC has really glommed on to anti-vaccing. They've organized all these protests against Trudeau, which are very un-Canadian in the sense of, like, you know, people hurling violent threats and rocks and stuff at Trudeau and demonizing Trudeau. And he's become a very Trumpian figure, but also a lot of xenophobia saying wants to close the border to keep American refugees out of Canada.

You know, got to build that wall. So Bernier, in the polls vary, but he's getting between 5 to 10%. Wow. And this is the Trumpy candidate. The Trumpy candidate. And I think that if the liberals win again, it will be because the right is split, that he's going to have Brinney will have taken enough votes away from the conservatives to hamper them. And so the conservatives could get another minority government. So the liberals are Trudeau? Trudeau, yeah, the liberal party. Trudeau.

Trudeau could win again because the right has divided. between the kind of Mitt Romney conservatives and the Trump right-wing anti-vax foodcakes. And his party is like filled with like just unbelievable characters, one of which I'll mention out in New Brunswick, but he is a YouTuber

who addresses his followers as the semen retention army. What? Yes. Yes. Yes. I was hoping. He very strongly believes that like a man's bodily fluid are a source of strength, which you have to agree with, right? It seems inevitable that we would get to something

this stupid. There's always ways in which, you know, your hands could get out a little bit out of control or God forbid you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend, your seaman could, you know, escape. And he promotes the retention of semen and has even breathing exercises that will help you hold on to that semen. Wow. That's what you want in office. That's right. That's right. So, so, so, but that's a party that's, you know, could get as much as, you know, one vote in 10. And what I think is actually very dangerous is, like, okay, let's say the conservatives, let's say the, you know, Trudeau wins again, it's a liberal minority. The conservatives are going to look at the numbers and think like, you know, if we have our numbers and we have the PPC, we could have won this thing.

And they're going to try to figure out ways of integrating the PPC and Bernier back into the party. And so I really think that there's a possibility of a much more right-wing conservative party emerging in Canada. The guy who's the head of the conservative party, Aaron O'Too, he got into power, one of the non-executive, nomination by appealing to some hard right groups, like saying he'll repeal gun control or weakened gun control and, you know, making noises to the anti-abortion people, the evangelicals, and they got him in. But once he got into power, once he was the nomination, he's been trying to moderate and really appeal. And one of his big appeals was puppy farms. He's going to like, you know, like, that puppies are being mistreated. It's like one of these things where it sounds like

it's like you know Canada's another country, but it sounds like Canada is another planet. So I'll just end with this note that Aaron O'Teele has tried to moderate himself. He also adopted some of Elizabeth Warren's proposals. He says labor unions should sit on corporate boards. So he's trying to moderate himself. But I think that if that doesn't work, the conservatives are going to move to the right. So I actually think what this election signifies, I think, is that we're going to get a Trumpist politics in Canada. So that's why I've got to wine.

Oh, I'm worried. But not this election, a different... Yeah, I think future elections, yeah. I mean, right now it looks tight. It's like, you know, 30 conservatives and liberals are tied. The liberals have a little bit better of a geographical spread, so it looks like they'll get the minority government. But we'll see.

We'll say it could be anything. It could be a conservative minority government. The only thing that excites me about this is I get so exhausted every time I socialize of having to hear friends say, I'm just going to move to Canada to get away from American politics. All right. not a good option. Tell them next time, if someone says that, say they have semen retention army in Canada. And yeah, and you have guys who pretend they like puppies and then we'll quickly

switch to xenophobia and anti-vaccing if that's what it takes. That is kind of amazing. I want to talk to you about anti-vaxing for a minute because I think that's a good segue into what's happening down south in our stupid country. Mississippi has more COVID per capita than Peru, or slightly less than Peru, eight per capita. And we're seeing all these red states, 13 out of 14 of the worst COVID states have Republican governors. We're in this world of hurt that is largely partisan. And vaccine mandates are super popular. We're seeing polling that says it's really popular. Republicans, don't you think Republicans have attached themselves to a losing issue here? Yeah, I actually do.

And I hate to talk about like, you know, something that's a public cult issue in a political way, but they've politicized it. So we have to. They've totally politicized it. Yeah. The thing is that a majority of people, including like 40 or 50 percent of Republicans, are pro-vaxing. Right. Maybe a little bit more of that. The problem is not every Republican is an anti-vaxxer, but every anti-vaxer is a Republican.

Yeah, exactly. It's the same issue where they had to like appease Trump to stay in because they couldn't afford to alienate his base. So the Republicans cannot afford to alienate the anti-vaccing people. And so even Trump himself, like you'll remember there's a rally where he, you know, tried to say a few nice things about vaccination and he was booed. And I think that that maybe has taught people a lesson. So they're really trying to like straddle this by saying what's a private choice matter or I won't say my, I won't say my. myself if I've been vaccinated, you know, the way Dr. Carlson does, right? So I think there's actually a real opportunity here for Democrats to use that ambiguity of the Republicans and say, you know, these guys

are not full force square for vaccination and vaccination is our really only pathway back to a normal reality. Yeah. I think California showed it to some degree. With the recall, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So the recall, yeah. So I think it does actually a very strong issue for Democrats. And I think it might be a case where like sort of public policy and politics might be brought into alignment by really using this to punish their Republicans for bad public policy. So I do think that's, I think it's perfectly fair for the Democrats to use us and to say, and I think the accurate way to say it is, like, all these Republican politicians have gotten vaccinated, but they won't necessarily say so because they're not, they're more committed to

their political future than they are to public health. And all the people at Fox have got vaccinated. I think Rupert Murdoch was probably like the second person on the planet to get vaccinated. And Fox has this passport, vaccine passport system. And the reporting I read said 90% of all people who work at Fox got vaccinated. So like, well, Tucker Carlson won't answer that question. We now know that, you know, nine out of ten of them did. Of course.

And I'm sure that he has. And I think, I mean, that's actually very interesting. I think that there's, the Republican Party can be seen as a. coalition between the kind of the rubs and the con artist. And one really sees us in this vaccination issue with right wing media, because none of the Fox News people are dying of COVID, right? Those are the well-off people who are at the top. They're the con artist.

They know what the game is, and they know that they're sending one message out to the public and living a different way. The rubs are the people lower down on the ecosystem, which are the right-wing radio hosts. You know, like five of which have like died of COVID. Yes. And for both of the people that actually, like, actually, they, you know, to use the parlance of the drug trade, they got high on their own supply. You know, it's an amazing example, though, of this that I think about every day on my way to work. So I work in the building next to Fox News.

Fox News makes you test every day, apparently, to go into the building. And there is a tent that has a fucking line outside of it when I go to work because they're all getting, all the people are getting tested. who can't go in there, which is way more strict than almost every other thing in New York State. It goes way behind the governor's mandate. Of course. But they don't want to get COVID. They're not stupid. I mean, they see these talk radio hosts getting COVID and dying.

I mean, it is pretty spectacular. So now, cheat, let's talk about this. You and I are longtime followers of the Democratic Party. It's like they're seizing defeat from the jaws of victory. Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, we'll see what happens with the reconciliation and the bill. I mean, it really does seem like it's a game of chicken. And I'm thinking, we'll see what happens.

I feel like that the so-called moderate Republicans will at some point have to flinch because the progressive Democrats have been very firm on this and are willing to blow up everything to make sure that both infrastructure bills pass. So I think that's the way you have to do it. You have to actually tell these people, you know, our final offer is nothing. You know, you have to do this or you don't get the roads in, you know, West Virginia that you want. But I mean, there would be an optimistic reading.

It could be because of a handful, the media describes them as moderate Democrats, but they're really, you know, conservative Democrats, or I would actually say corporate Democrats. They're really holding out on this. And they're holding out of stuff that they themselves promised. Like, like all these people, the whole party ran on lower drug prices, right?

Like, wasn't anyone saying that. And it's not like, you know, to fund the police of something that divides the party, right? which it's something that everyone agreed on, and they're going back on it. And it just happens to be a coincidence that the people who are holding out receive huge donations from the pharmaceutical companies. Yeah, what are the odds? Yeah.

Or in the case of, you know, Joe Manchin, you know, have a daughter who's like, you know, very heavily involved. Right. Or Joe Manchin takes money from oil and gas, but is set to, you know, decide Biden's climate agenda, you know. The thing I always want to talk about is, like, Nancy, Pellosi Pellosi keeps her people in line in a way that Chuck Schumer does not. Yeah, well, it's harder to control the Senate.

I mean, I don't want to give you an apologies for Chuck Schumer. Like, there could be a lot more discipline there. I think the Senate is just like a lot harder to control. They're more independent people. They have their own kind of base of support. But yeah, it is kind of a problem. And but it's also a problem in the House even. Like there are these like, you know, handful of House members that are the,

you're creating the log jam on the drug prices, right? Right. I mean, the drug prices, it's like, do you know anyone in America who's like, oh, gee, I want to pay $3,000 for my drug? You know, like nobody, I mean, our drug prices are in, you know, we're a country where if you have a medical crisis, you could ruin your life. That's right, yeah. And actually, like, makes no sense even from their own point of it.

Like, let's say you're a moderate Democrat and your thing is, well, I don't want to, like, run up the deficit and whatnot. Like, lowering drug prices is something you could actually do that has, like, no financial costs for anyone except the pharmaceutical company. Right. Who, like, you know, I'm sorry, but, like, that's the way it is with everything. You know, you get to enjoy a monopoly that the government grants you for a few years, and then you have to share it, right? And it's a good of society. And that's why every other country in the world does that.

I cannot explain enough that, like, there's nowhere else where people are picking that much money for insulin. The American health care system is so broken and damaged. that even when we start the conversation, people can't even get it. You know, I live in Manhattan on one block, and MRI costs $300 on another block. It costs $3,000. And you don't get to know which one it is because they've decided that they can rip off Medicare or Medicaid or whatever is or the insurance company that's covering it. Yeah, yeah. I know.

I just, yeah, I mean, I think the Democrats do have this problem, the sort of internal division. I have to say, like, on one level, like, if you look at the long history of the party, the moderate wing, let's call them the corporate Democrats. They're much smaller now than they've ever been before. But, I mean, the margins are so small that they can run this interference. I'm just, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know where it's going to end, except that I am heartened by the firm line that Bernie and the squad have kind of laid out. And I think that's like is the best way forward because these people, are very invested in the bipartisan infrastructure bill.

And it's tragic that you have to like play chicken like this. And you have to say, you know, like, you have to like go along with the party. We're going to blow everything up. But I think that's the only option. So your prediction for tomorrow in Canada, does Trudeau live another day? Yeah, I think so. I think that the most likely thing is that the liberals will get a minority government and that they'll leave the support of the NDP.

And to be frank, from my... point of view, like short, I mean, I'm an NDP supporter. And obviously I would want an NDP government. But if you can't get an NDP government, having the liberals as a minority requiring the NDP is the best possible option because, you know, like you actually, I mean, that's how the Canadian welfare state was built up. It's always been under that condition. Because there's a little, you know, they have to give the, you know, they have to give stuff to the NDP. I mean, in some ways, it's all about leverage. And that goes back to the mansion thing, right? Like, who has leverage? And who can, like, create a situation where they have

leverage. So if Manchin has leverage, then you're not going to get stuff. If the Jack Mead Singh has leverage, you're going to get stuff. Yeah, such a good point. Thank you so much, Jeet. Please, please come back. Always happy to be here. I always happy to talk. Hey, folks, if you haven't heard every single week, we do a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast membership program. Sometimes we interview senators like Corey Booker or the folks who explain what's happening behind the scenes in media like Jim Acosta or Soladadad O'Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner, and sometimes we just have friends around to analyze what's happening in the news.

You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a beast inside member where you'll support the beast fearless journalism, as well as getting full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member, head to New Abnormal.com. That's New Abnormal.com. Normal. Not the Daily Beast.com. Rokana is the congressman from California's 17th District who sits on the Agricultural Committee, the Armed Services Committee, as well as the Committee on Oversight and Reform.

Welcome back to the new Abnormal, Rocahanna. Thank you. Thank you for having me back on. We're so excited to have you. You are this, you know, this most exciting state right now. And I was hoping that we could just quickly talk about the recall election, wasted a lot. of taxpayer dollars. I don't know what the Republicans were thinking

that they were going to recall a governor who had won in a landslide election and a state that Joe Biden had just won overwhelmingly, and that they were going to do it by running a campaign

on anti-vaccines and anti-masks. It made no sense and the results basically confirmed what common sense would tell you. These ballot initiatives. Like, this is how it works in California. Is there any way to change this? Well, I think this has been an incentive to change it. I was just back home and was talking to a number of state assembly members and state senators, and they're all now looking at reforming both

the recall process and the state ballot initiative process. Very hard to do because it's saying, oh, you want to take away sort of popular democracy. But people are so frustrated with the recall, although this is a moment where we're probably getting good reform. So talk to me about, like, I've read, I read all the newsletters, and so I read that progressives and moderates, though, Jeet here, who was on the podcast, called them corporate Democrats. You know, the way these inside the belt way media organizations make it sound, it's like everyone's at their, each other's throats and Democrats in disarray.

You are a progressive, you are a progressive, you are in Washington, D.C. You are a Democrat. Are Democrats in disarray? No, I mean, first of all, I have a good relationship, actually, with Senator Mansion. I went to West Virginia. We did a project together to bring tech jobs to Beckley, West Virginia. So I don't make disagreements personal. I do think that all the Democrats, in my view, should get behind Joe Biden's agenda.

I mean, my candidate was Bernie Sanders. He didn't win. I'm not insisting on Bernie Sanders' agenda of Medicare for all in this bill. I'm not saying we should have free public college for everyone in this bill. I'm saying let's do Joe Biden's bill. And I guess I don't understand why that's so difficult. Why can't he be the person who gets to decide and Democrats follow in this instance? Do you see a world in which we can pass this?

I mean, we had this summer of floods and fires. And I know that the fires that are burning in your state now are the second largest ever in recorded fire history. So, I mean, do you think climate change has gotten bad enough so it can set the agenda? I do. I think you have many people in the House saying, how can you invest in the economy, in infrastructure, without investing in dealing with the climate crisis? We are going to have historic hearings in my committee. I chair the Environment Subcommittee on Oversight. We have sent out letters actually just last week to every big oil CEO. They're going to appear before our committee because we're willing to use any tool. I'm not going to have to answer for climate disinformation on October 28th. That's going to be like the big deal. tobacco hearings. And I'm confident that we're going to get a clean energy standard and massive investment in renewable energy as part of the build back better agenda. Yeah, I mean, it strikes me as we have been so gaslit by oil and gas that it's hard to even, I mean, like certain things like climate capture seems like a good idea, but I trust nothing. I mean, I know it's actually problematic in

certain ways, but like I trust nothing that comes out of oil and gas anyway. Well, they've lied for so many years. They've said that the climate crisis wasn't man-made at first. Then they had said it's not as serious. Now they're saying that they understand the stakes and they're committed to sustainable legislation. But then they've got lobbyists who're bragging about killing climate legislation. So they're going to have to come and answer in front of the Congress about exactly what they're doing on climate disinformation and to kill climate legislation. And they're going to have to do so under oath. So that is going to be a moment of accountability. But until then, we have a very strong bill. We have a clean energy standard that says by 2035, you will have

100% clean energy. We get there by financially incentivizing the production of solar, of wind, of geothermal, of energy. It's something that everyone should get behind. And it means a lot of new jobs in places that have been left out. Speaking of companies being malfeasant, we saw, So a lot of reporting about Facebook last week, including this, you know, that Instagram is bad for teenage girls, that Facebook was compared to big tobacco for its sort of knowledge of its dangers and lying about it. How do you propose that we're going to be able to take on tech? Because it strikes me as this is a company that desperately needs regulation. Absolutely. And it was appalling to see those studies at Facebook where. Basically, they understand that young girls on Instagram are facing higher incidences of depression, of anxiety, of suicidal thoughts because of what Instagram is doing.

I mean, Instagram basically is your worst junior high school experience on steroid. And this means we need regulations. What regulations? Well, one, we ought to strengthen and actually enforce cope out, which is not allowing kids, 13 onto these sites. It's not enforced. We all know stories of young people who've gotten on to these platforms or under 13. So there ought to be much more strict liability on that. And then from the ages of 13 to 16, we have to have some regulation on what social media can exist that isn't causing mental harm or harm to consumers. And that ought to be regulated.

And so actually my office is working right now with some of the groups on legislation specifically to deal with this Instagram problem. Yeah, I mean, like I've watched tech hearings on the Hill before. You happen to be very savvy and you come from a district that is, you know, this is your district, right? But a lot of these congresspeople don't totally understand tech or even email. Or the First Amendment, boy. I mean, you know, you can't just, you can't ban things. But for example, the Supreme Court has said that adolescents under 18 don't have the same rights to free speech as adults do. So there is more discretion in having regulation if something is geared towards young people.

But that seems like such a simple point. But the point problem is a lot of the legislation comes and they don't make a distinction between under 18 and over 18. And so it wouldn't pass scrutiny on the First Amendment. So what we need is actually well-crafted legislation. legislation that addresses the problems that's consistent with our First Amendment. And there are a lot of things you can do. For example, I mean, Zuckerberg hides behind the First Amendment all the time. But, you know, under Brandenburg, you can't have incitement of violence. You can't have speech that is going to lead to the incitement of violence. So when there was discussions about

assassination on Facebook on prior to January 6th, there should have been a disclosure requirement and obligation to remove that content and an exception to Section 230 because that was speech that was going to incite violence. And that the fact that the Facebook's private security officers didn't feel compelled to reach out to law enforcement to warn them about the assassination conversations on Facebook, there's something wrong with the law. And there are ways to fix it. We just have to get experts in and craft these things properly. I'm sure you've seen that what Facebook does, is they sort of, they get this data, you know, they apologize. Well, first they try to bury the data, and then when it comes out, they apologize very sincerely

and do nothing. You're absolutely right. I mean, they have no accountability. Here's, or they're defensive, and they point to all the good things. And there are good things. I mean, the Me Too moment, the Black Lives Matter movement, the democratization of speech. But the point is, just because you have good things, you also have enabled a lot of terrible things. Now you have like-minded people who are like-minded because they believe in QAnon or because

they believe in anti-bax conspiracies. And I guess what I said to them directly is have a little more humility. Just acknowledge that this technology has had implications that you didn't foresee, that it has unleashed some really awful things in society. It's done good, but unleashed awful things, and that you understand the need for regulation and are going to constructively work towards that regulation, instead of always just being defensive, apologizing, and saying, well, what happens next? I mean, people's patience is warranted. One of the things that I feel like we don't talk about so much, but strikes me as really something that Congress has in its arsenal, is antitrust regulation. Why is that not used more? We ought to use it. I mean, it's not a silver bullet in

getting at some of these issues, because even if you had two, three Facebooks or, and I think Facebook ought to be broken up from WhatsApp and Instagram, you still need regulations on privacy and regulations on how they can deal with children. So you need broader regulations. But I agree with you that one value of antitrust is that you would have multiple discursive spaces. In other words, I think it would be a problem. If we only had a few TV channels, I think it's a good thing for that we have many. And if we had more social media options, then I think some of the people. and would have higher standards, better standards, even at least as parents or individuals have more choice. And we ought to be enforcing antitrust to do that,

but we ought to recognize that once we do that, we still need privacy legislation and legislation to protect children. Yeah. You know, I don't know if you watched the gymnast last week, but there was a hearing last week in the Senate of these gymnasts who had been sexually abused for years and years by a doctor who was an Olympic doctor, and the FBI had really dropped the ball. And this is, we've seen a lot of FBI dropping the ball situations lately.

Do you think there can be greater accountability for the FBI? It was heartbreaking seeing that those young women testify. There needs to be more accountability. I mean, there needs to be an understanding why those cases weren't pursued. It seems so obvious hearing the testimony that they weren't pursued. of what is the culture that was preventing that. But I do think that what is going to bring accountability ultimately, more than even congressional hearings and lawmakers, is the media.

And I've seen this in my time in Congress. When people start covering things, whether it's social media or broadcast media or cable, that gets people to suddenly pay attention and act. And the more transparency we can have, the better chance we have of accountability. When will die, fire, resign? Got to throw that in there. She will serve out her term if I'm guessing. There's unlikely to be any resigning.

And I wish her good health. And if she has good help, I have no doubt she's going to serve out her term. Thank you so much, Rokana. Thank you. Always a pleasure. Aswan Subasang and Will Summer are the host of the Daily Beast fever dreams, as well as being reporters at the Daily Beast. Welcome to the new abnormal will and swing.

of fever dreams. Thanks for having us. Thank you so much for having us back, Molly. It's a fancy crossover episode, but it's actually not. It's just one interview. But who knows what could happen? So let's talk about justice for J6. They didn't get justice, did they? Not yet. I mean, yeah, so this was the, of course, the September 18th rally on Saturday that was supposed to, you know, kind of be this thing for the so-called political prisoners of January 6th. And it was a big flop. Yeah. The pictures I saw were like 50 journalists and like a guy dressed up with a hat. Did he have a loot? I thought he might have a hat a loot. Yeah, I saw people were calling him the the budget brand Q-Shaman. You know, it was a guy with kind of a, kind of a Davy Crockett type ass. Yes, he had a Davey Crockett. And didn't he sing in French or did I make

that up? He was singing at some point. Yeah, I know there was a lot of bellowing. I mean, I think maybe, you know, if you subtract the journalists, I think maybe there were a couple dozen people there. at most, and then, you know, maybe five times that, maybe even more in terms of the press. Yeah. I mean, amazing. The reporting I read before was like, this is the B team. Like, nobody got free buses. There were no private jets going.

So people just didn't go. Is that what happened or is there some other explanation? Yeah. I mean, you know, I think we shouldn't read too much into this in terms of being like, this is proof that, you know, Trumpism's over or that the right does not support a lot of the January 6th rioters. Because they do. I think it's worth.

comparing like who was promoting this rally versus who was promoting January 6th. I mean January 6th, we had Donald Trump, we had Alex Jones, we had, you know, people in Congress. We just had really like just so many people on the right, Charlie Kirk. Whereas this time we had Matt Brainerd. And Molly, I know you keep up with these characters. Have you ever heard of Matt Brainer? I saw the pictures of him. I don't understand what he is. This would be akin to if Will or I tried to throw a rally in what the lawns in front of the U.S. Capitol. about freeing January 6 riders and or jailed Antifa members having seven people show up and then somebody writing this up or going on cable news to say this was proof that the force behind these movements is dwindling. Do people think that this is proof that the force behind these movements is dwindling?

Because what I've read isn't that. I've read that it's like that this just wasn't the A team and that they knew that there weren't congresspeople in the building. so there was no one to get. Their stated intention here was not, let's take over Congress, but the last time there was kind of a specific thing they didn't like that was happening in Congress. This time, I mean, they're not going to break in and be like, you know, trash Congress on a Saturday.

Right. I mean, also, like, the idea here, I mean, no, none, most these people aren't even in jail in Washington, D.C. I think there's a few dozen who were in jail. I mean, a lot of have been transferred to D.C. This is, like, obviously a big martyr thing on the right, and they have these sort of lurid tales of torture that I think really have not been, substantiated and that, you know, these guys are becoming like they're getting their prison

letters out and their people are reading them as sort of this gospel truth. So that is certainly true. I think in this case, you just had really so many people, the proud boys, Donald Trump himself, saying that this was going to be a sci-op, you know, a federal false flag and that people should stay away. They really said that. Oh, yeah. I mean, this was huge. Yeah. I mean, really everyone from Trump said it was a setup. As I said, the proud boys did. Ron Watkins, who's sort of the head of Q and on did. Did Trump say it was going to be a setup privately or publicly? Trump said publicly that people should stay away. He called it a setup. Yeah. It's kind of amazing to me the idea that like a guy who was our president is saying this

kind of crazy stuff. I mean, I know he's always been saying this kind of crazy stuff, but it just strikes me. Yeah, I feel like sometimes you have to kind of do a gut check and be like, this is still pretty crazy. I mean, yeah, his quote here, he was interviewing with the federalist. So, you know, I mean, this is the kind of the tough questions. here. And he said, on Saturday, that's a setup. If people don't show up, they'll say, oh, it's a lack of spirit. And if people do show up, they'll be harassed. So there you go. Right. Wow. That actually is a good segue into, like, how is MAGA evolving from that? Like, what is the new sort of MAGA that doesn't have Trump in the White House?

What does that look like? I think we're seeing that, you know, they're still very hot on Donald Trump. I'm seeing a lot of talk about sort of like 2022 doesn't matter. 2024 doesn't matter until we fix 2020. And so it's this very kind of backwards looking thing. I mean, the hot thing this week is we'll be getting the results theoretically of the, you know, the so-called Arizona audit. Cyber ninjas.

Cyber ninjas, yes, they're back. You know, the cyber ninjas recovered from their case of COVID, and so they've been able to complete the audit. Jesus. Okay. Right. We're sort of in this situation right now where, okay, where does MAGA go from here in the coming

years, which I think is inseparable from when you're talking about the mainstream GOP, because sort of when we say, where does MAGA world or where is Trump world go, at this juncture of American history, when you talk about Trump world and the Republican Party, they're essentially one and the same. Does that necessarily mean that Trumpism

kind of doesn't really have anywhere to go if Donald Trump ends up not declaring officially that he's running for president again in 2024? I really don't see any evidence of that being the case as of right now, at least, because in so many ways that matter, in so many messaging priorities and policy prescriptions, of course, first and perhaps foremost among all of them, the anti-democratic sentiments that are pervading the Republican Party right now at the local, the state, and the federal level, so much of that is either being turbocharged in terms of what actually already

existed, or they're taking their cues from what Donald Trump is demanding in terms of crackdown on voting rights all across the United States. So he's going to be a force for pushing that and so much else, whether or not he actually runs for president in a year or two or three or whatever. And it's just, I don't see any evidence of it getting worked out of the bloodstream of the conservative movement any time soon. I mean, I think you can boil down the right right now to two things. which is voter fraud slash the ensuing crackdowns on voting from there and opposition to COVID measures, whether that be lockdowns or mask wearing or vaccines. And that's pretty much it.

I'm sure you guys saw Governor Tate Reeves on Jake Tapper's show yesterday. And he was saying, like Tapper was saying, you know, your state has most COVID per capita of any place but Peru. And you're still opposing vaccine mandates. And Tate was like, death is a lagging indicator. and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I mean, it's just like they are in a situation where the only way to keep the base is to oppose the thing

that would help save the base. Yeah, I mean, I think you can see that a lot of these Republican officials, as well as Republican media figures, I think are really sort of captured by their base and terrified of angering them. I mean, we saw at the rally where Trump was sort of like,

I don't know, guys, like, maybe you should get the vaccine, and they're like, boo, boo. And then he was like, okay, well, okay, protect your freedoms, And I mean, that's really the case. Like, you know, Breitbart, people may have just seen Breitbart had to do this kind of like triple reverse psychology move telling people they should get the vaccine because the liberals don't want you to get the vaccine, but they act like they do. Get the vaccine on the libs is the modus operandi for that column, yes.

I read that column and I was, my question was like, they were still like, well, maybe this is a conspiracy where liberals are telling us to take the vaccine. as a way of getting us to not take the vaccine. Yeah, liberals are telling us, and they're mandating it. But they don't want us to take the vaccine. It's only because, you know, it's essentially like a very, when you get down to it, it's a very kind of condescending way to talk to your side, which is like, look, everyone knows we have oppositional defiance disorder, and we're going to get mad no matter what.

So much of the focus right now really is on just like, frankly, never wearing masks for getting the vaccine. Yeah. Right. And not just this guy at Brightboard. He's merely a very recent symptom in terms of the, this column they put out of this phenomenon. But you do get this sense that whenever the more self-aware conservative politicians or columnists or pundits start saying, okay, this is something where we kind

of have to talk down to our readers and down to our audience to try to get them on board with something that they very clearly don't want to get. They very clearly portray themselves as having less intellectual respect for their audience than even their most bitter political and ideological enemies do on the left do for that very same audience. You see it every time this comes down, since we're talking about the Breitbart column right now in terms of the reverse psychology, jujitsu, owning the libs, do that instead of actually getting the shots just so you can, you know, save your and your family and your friend's lives. It really shows how little respect these guys have for their own audience and readers. It's stunning.

Is that what's going on, or is it that they just, you know, are not that smart themselves? I mean, like, there are some very smart people, right? Like, I mean, I despise him, but Tucker Carlson is very, very smart. But then there are people like Sean Hannity who just is like, you know, eating crayons. I mean, I get the sense these people are not geniuses. I think it's a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B. Your assessment of Sean Hannity is shared by Michael Savage, the former talk radio host, who famously was like, Sean Haney's a big moron, called him like a caveman, essentially.

But anyway, so, yeah, I mean, I think it's a mix. I mean, I think we're seeing the way that breaks down in terms of the sort of regional talk radio hosts and internet conspiracy theorists who are dying of COVID. And then the kind of big muckety mucks are not. Right. I mean, that strikes me as like a real line in the sand. You have all of these conservative talk show host dying of coke. I mean, right, we're up to five, right? Oh, yeah, at least.

And then Fox News has a vaccine passport program. Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, another thing I'm struck by is, I think there's kind of a, the audience has, you know, as we were talking about, really, I think has an opposition to being told to do anything or even sort of gently nudge towards doing anything. And so you have these situations where these hosts, like they don't want to come out necessarily, and particularly kind of the Cadillac type hosts, like the top level ones, like a Mark Levin. They don't want to come out and say, like, don't get the vaccine. But they can't quite say, go get the vaccine. And so they focus on these things, like now we're seeing this focus on now. natural immunity. And so it's like if you got COVID or maybe you think you got COVID, this is like a hot new identity class. And they say, well, I'm being erased from, you know, the narrative. And I don't want to, you know, I shouldn't have to get the vaccine because I had COVID once. And so there's kind of this constantly evolving explanation for why people don't have to do what they should. That's the Rand Paul thing. It's sort of a weird mirror image of what happened to the Republican Party and conservative voters in the aftermath of 9-11.

In the aftermath of 9-11, there was this broad, rapid, rapacious, blood-lusting, ideological push to say, okay, if you are not doing everything you can to somehow stand a threat of al-Qaeda and that kind of brown-skinned terrorism, you're a wimp, you're a pussy. If you're not doing everything possible to adhere to the 1% doctrine in that way, arm yourself to the teeth, whether figuratively or literally, that there is something deeply un-American and, you're not. unpatriotic of you. This is kind of the same thing, but a weird mirror image of that. Because in the advent of the COVID era and this raging pandemic that is still raging in America, there is this very large class of Republican conservative thinker who seems to be convinced that if you're not

doing everything you possibly can to endanger yourself and your community and your loved ones, as a thing is still killing hundreds and hundreds of Americans on average every day, you are somehow a wuss. It's baffling. Well, I have to say, did you read this New York Times monoclonal antibodies story over the weekend? Yes, I did. No, I didn't read it. But Tate Reeve did bring up that the Biden administration isn't giving them the monocomals they want. So I don't know if that's factual or not. Yeah, so these governors are, they basically, they don't want to tell people to get the vaccine. And so, but for whatever reason, conservative media hasn't decided that monoclonal antibodies are bad as a treatment. And so they say,

well, we'll just give you all the antibodies you want. And so then this sets up this crazy moral hazard where this thing that's like a hundred times more expensive, there was this guy in Houston who, you know, in a very classic anti-vaccine fashion is a guy who's in his 60s and is like, well, I didn't think COVID would ever be a problem for me. And doesn't get the vaccine, gets his antibodies, you know, costs everyone thousands of dollars. And then, you know, he gets out and he says, well, you know, I don't think I'll get the vaccine. I might be back for some more of those antibodies, though.

It's completely crazy. And the antibody therapy is actually an infeuro. So there's time, you know, it's a couple of hours or an hour. I mean, it's not like just going into CBS. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I guess the point I'm trying to make here is this is sort of where you see this, the position that I think a lot of these Republican governors are in, which is that they, rather than say, okay, our state's being overwhelmed by Delta, it's time for, like,

vaccine mandates and, you know, huge vaccine drives. We have to kind of, like, dance around this in a way that is not going to kill people, or you're going to stop people from dying, but in a way that won't infure. people because it doesn't touch on one of these right-wing media hot-button issues. Right. It's crazy. Right. And something you will hear, including from some very well-funded and established Republican strategists who the three of us might not view as completely bad shit, is that, look, you have to understand that there are a bunch of liberals and Democratic politicians in the country who are

grossly underestimating. This is their claim, take it however you will, that the number of voters and citizens across the large United States who feel that, okay, maybe we would be persuadable, maybe kind of to take the vaccine. But the moment you have things about like liberal preening and preachingness and scolding and mandates or however they want to frame it, that they just completely lock up and you basically get them to a position of just, nope, 100% not taking it. Okay, well, I mean, we can debate the actual percentages of people like that across the country some other time, but assuming that that is at all significant in the context of getting millions upon millions of people vaccinated from the coronavirus right

now, it really is just giving up the game that you are just admitting that a lot of this is exactly the stuff that you're supposed to teach your children not to do when they're young, to not be resistant to things just because you feel aggrieved on some very basic or visceral level. It's almost humiliating to talk about. This was so great. Thank you guys so much. Please come back. Well, thanks for having us, Molly.

Thank you so much, Molly. What's crazier than QAnon, more outlandish than Pizza Gate, and scarier than a Mexican getaway with Ted Cruz? The answer is, what the American right wing has planned next. Be one of the first to listen to Fever Dreams, new podcasts from The Daily Beast, tracking the conspiracy slingers, orange acolytes, and straight-up grifters pushing to retake power. Every Wednesday hosts Swin Subisang and Will Summer Checking in on the movement of the radical right Head to the Daily Beast.com

slash podcasts or your favorite podcast player To catch the first episode and get subscribed. That's Fever Dreams, which you can subscribe to wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Jesse Cannon. Hi, Molly Jong Fast. What's going on? A lot of fuckery. Tell me what flavor of fuckery is in your bonnet today.

You know, I am going to go out with some fuckery that is very annoying, but not as atrocious as the usual fuckery. Merit fucking Garland. We used to call him Merit fucking Garland because we wanted him to be on the Supreme Court. We now call him Merit fucking Garland because he's not fucking doing anything. Yeah, he's a little bit a little wimpy. I mean, maybe putting, like, a partisan good guy in to clean up a fascist bad guy was a mistake. Yeah, there was a thing that Eric Holder really feels like he always has a fight,

him. Even today, he feels like he's ready to take it on. And this is why I ask, Merritt fucking Garland, get in there, stop defending the Trump White House. They're still defending the Trump White House against E. Gene Carroll. Like, you don't need to clean up for Trump. Trump is not your problem. Like, fuck the norms take care of democracy. And to that, I say, I'm not going to say, fuck you, Merritt fucking Garland. I'm going to say, come on, man. This is like a low level fuck that guy.

It's a come on man. So I say to you, Merrick fucking Garland, come on, man. Who is your fuck that guy for this week, Jesse Cannon? Mine is a man. I really spend too much time hating. It's a man with questionable fashion sense. And a man I don't think is smart enough for his job. That is Mark Zuckerberg.

The head of my least favorite social media site, Facebook. You may have heard of him as the guy who wears too much sunblock. This is correct. According to Max Chaffkin's new book, The Contrarian Peter Thiel, the Silicon Valley's pursuit of power, and we will definitely be talking to him about this, that according to Peter Thiel, Mark Zuckerberg promised former President Trump

and Jared Kushner and their spouses, he essentially promised to champion, quote-unquote, state-sanctioned conservatism. And while Zuckerberg has denied the existence of this deal saying it was pretty ridiculous, which not pretty ridiculous is, all the data that shows it. I know Marx,

a guy loves data. And every time we see these fucking lists of what went on during this election, every one of the most popular posts on Facebook is basically state sanctioned conservative of just literally all the articles. Yeah, all the articles that kiss up to Trump and do the water carrying for his bullshit and his lies

were the most popular ones. And I think it's pretty clear to see that there's a lot of evidence here that that's probably true. Fuck Facebook. They're killing democracy, and also they may be as addictive as cigarettes. You know, this week we learned that Richard Blumenthal said that Facebook has the same sort of knowledge that big tobacco had about their own malfeasance. That's a great staying.

And for that, I say, fuck you, Facebook. Go fuck yourself. And also stop it. Stop poisoning our young people. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking. to smart folks from The Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics, and science who will help us understand what's happening to our country and the world.

We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you again on the next episode. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at thedailybeast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline head to the dailybeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.