The Daily Beast Podcast - Comic’s Comic Andy Kindler: ‘Manipulative’ Louis C.K. Got What He Deserved

Episode Date: October 16, 2022

Comedian Andy Kindler has very strong opinions on cancel culture, specifically regarding Louis C.K.’s so-called “cancellation” and comeback after sexual misconduct allegations. Lucky for New Abnormal podcast listeners, the “Bobs Burgers” and “Everybody Loves Raymond” actor decided to share all of them with host Andy Levy on this bonus episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. And I'm producer Jesse Kennan, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some great guest co-hosts, as well as some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try to make some sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. Hello, and welcome to another bonus episode of the new abnormal,

and we like you so much for being here. So we're sometimes going to try something a little different on Sundays and have guests who aren't necessarily from the political world. And obviously, ultimately you, the listeners, will let us know if it's something you didn't know was missing from your life and now you can't live without it, or something you are actually very happy living without. And you know what, Andy, we would love to go back to that life.

We did this a few weeks ago with Paul F. Tompkins, the response seemed to be good. So I figured, who better to kill any possible momentum than my next guest, the great comedian, the Comics Comic, Andy Kindler. Aplaus here. Thank you. Oh, thank you for sending me up for failure

because that's exactly, that's been my whole schick. There's no way I can follow. First of all, I can't follow Paul Toppkins in a comedy club, so I can't follow him here in your show. And I'm looking as if I can see you. And I didn't want to see you, but I'm still looking for you. I'm here. I'm in the clouds or something, so you can't actually see me.

Your voice sounds very, I've never heard your voice like this. You've had some coaching or something. I'm sitting in a $10,000 booth right now. Oh, with a Neumann? We have a Neumann, Mike? I don't. I don't. I have a, can I say what Mike? I have a Yeti X. I don't know if I can say that. Oh, Mr. Big Shot with the blue, the blue shadow, Mike. Yes, yes, exactly. All right. So I want to talk to you. I actually want to talk to you about some things. I want to start with a phrase that we hear all the time now. And that phrase is cancel culture. And I want to talk to you about cancel culture and as it pertains to comedy. And I want to know when you hear that phrase, what's the first thing you think of? I think of right-wing comedians who don't like it when you criticize their act. So they have come up with a phony issue. I tend to agree with you there. And it just, it always like, but all these people, I always hear about how brave, you know, all these people are and how they're risking being canceled

because they're still doing. It's always like, you know, it's always racial humor or rape jokes or just something that, like, you know, most people have sort of decided, hey, we don't need to do that anymore. And they're out there going, no, I'm, I'm brave. I'm the truth teller out here. Right. Now, I will say this one thing. I mean, this is actually the example that's always brought up about this topic.

is that there was a woman, she was a PR person, and she was on a plane, and she did some, whatever, some casually, she thought it was funny, but it was like, she's not going to get AIDS. I forget what the joke was. By the time she had landed, she had been completely fired. So I do think that, and I'm not saying she shouldn't have been fired, or whatever I'm saying is there is that thing where the whole world comes down on you with shaming culture.

So I do think that people can make mistakes and they can apologize for the sake. But the things that upset me are like where there aren't mistakes. It's like, for example, like I've been arguing for the whole last week about Louis C.K. And all these people argue that he took, he apologized and he took responsibility. This is just false. Yes. And they take that. And in fact, I'm going to say anything that comes by mind you.

You can, you know, take out anything. But I remember, like, Louis was dating somebody from France. And the woman in France had said he asked every single person if it was okay. that he exposed himself. So why? These are lies. Right. So the point is that cancel culture, I mean, cancel culture, forget about the use of it as a gimmick. But the idea that you're going to pay, that you should be no blowback for your comments. And you should be able to say this.

And that's why that New Yorker article makes me white with rage is that it seems to be saying the New Yorker article that came back. He seems to be saying that a genius, genius comedy can only come in a format where someone like Shane Gillis can say, you know, use the C-H-S word. I'm not going to even say it because I don't go that route. Sure. I don't go the route that these guys go, like you see on Rogan or whatever they go, hey, we got to use the, we have to, like are Josh Zeps? I mean, using some of the names here, but there are also people I don't like. It's like, we have to use the N-word. And it's like, it's just ridiculous.

It's like, what was the blowback from Louis? He should have been, who wants to work with him after all this? Nobody at FX, nobody at this, but guess who's still making a wonderful living? Louis C.K. Yeah, and he's acting like he's been victimized. No, that's absolutely right. And the thing is, it's like, you know, again, there's a difference between people who make a mistake. And, you know, Louis C.K. didn't mistakenly take his penis out and masturbate in front of women without

their consent on multiple occasions. Right. He knew exactly what he was doing because he's not stupid. So he knew there was a power dynamic there that whether or not the women wanted to stay. Some of them felt like, you know what, I can't leave because this guy could decide whether I continue to be on stage or not. That's right. So the idea that, like, we call this, oh, well, he's paid enough. It's not up to me to decide that Luis E.K. should never work again.

It's up to people whether or not they still want to see him. I would never, in my life, would I pay money to see him again? And obviously, there are people who don't agree with that. And that's fine. But that's not cancel culture. Or it's not how they use the phrase. What it is is it's sort of almost like a, it's like a, you know, it's like capitalism. It's like the market deciding.

Right. And the thing is about this is that, you know, this is a thing that really bothers me. So I'm going to be totally honest. And again, you can. We'll cut out all your honesty. Okay. I have not, never liked Louis C.K. And actually, I loved Louis C.K.

When I first met him and I wanted to be friends with him, like everybody who meets him. He is an extremely manipulative, ambitious person who always came off like, I'm not ambitious. I'm not, I'm not this way. There's nobody who wanted to be more famous than Louis C.K. And so, like, I'll give you a perfect example. And I've never told the story before because I don't care anymore. What am I hiding it from? I was walking during the time period when Louis C.K. was writing for Conan.

I guess he was writing for Conan. I can't remember all the years together. So you have to check on me. So I came upon him in, you know, in New York. I just have been walking and I forgot where I was. And he was there. And I'm not going to say he was, he wasn't like drunk, but he certainly was very, very, very, very,

I thought he had been drinking because he was very, very, very loose-lipped. And he was saying things to me, like Conan knows I'm funnier than him. He knows it. He just can't deal with it. I'm the funniest thing on that show. And Conan knows that he can never be as funny. This is what he said to my face.

This is what he said to my face. So here's a guy, and then I don't know about the thing at Letterman, but apparently I wasn't there, but the thing of Letterman was he claims that they, told him to go in and complain at the end to lettering about being, you know, that they weren't using him. So it's like he's always had these power struggles everywhere. But if he's going to manipulate on a show like Conan O'Brien just because he thinks he's the best. You don't think you think he's the relationship with these women that he sexually abused is some kind of a thing that didn't happen.

Like it was like not an example of him being the way he is in every. single part of his life where he wants it, he's going to get it, and he's manipulating it because it's power. It's clearly power. Sorry from going on like a schmekel. No, I think that's absolutely right, though, but I do want to move. You brought this up, but I want to go into a little more detail in it. So a couple of weeks ago, there was this piece in The New Yorker that was called Shane Gillis's Fall and Rise. So Shane Gillis is a comedian, and back in 2019, Saturday Night Live, hired him. And then after some old podcast comments of his that didn't not include racial slurs for Chinese people were surfaced by a journalist named Seth Simons, he was unhired by S&L four days later.

So now the New Yorker decided to do a piece on him and what he's up to now. And judging by the one or two tweets that you, I'm sorry, that's a typo, that's one or two hundred tweets that you have posted about this, the piece really bothers you. I think that, yeah, exactly. Well, Oh, it was well written. No, the piece is the worst, it's the worst thing I've ever experienced in written form. And here's the backstory. My parents have, I've been subscribing to the New Yorker since I was 21 years old. I'm 70, 60, and my parents did. How old are you, Andy? But I could be, how old is 50? I'm older than that.

So this is like a great magazine, you know, except it's not a great. My problem is I overvalue things, but it's like I kind of had this view that, you know, it's a sophisticated magazine. And Hilton Al, as if I'm pronouncing his name, he wrote a great review in the New Yorker, just trashing Louis C.K's last special. So I don't know what happened at the New Yorker or, but the point is that they're all basically saying that this guy did say, called Chinese people, used a C word for Chinese people, really didn't apologize for it, but that this is somehow, I don't. know what the argument was that somehow the guy was basically saying the guy who wrote the article was saying there's two ways you can look at at comedy one way is you want comics who agree with you and are resonant with your with your position so like if you are you know you're not anti you're pro trans there's that kind of comedy or there's comedy that just says whatever you want

and says whatever's happening that's a phony premise there's no nobody goes out i don't go out to say pro-trans things on stage. It's not a form of comedy. I'm reacting to Dave Chappelle. Right. Dashing and trashing these people. So the person who wrote this idea basically has the winners in the comedy pool, because it was a fallen rise,

the winners in the comedy pool of life and creativity are Louis C.K., Shane Gillis. Because Shane Gillis said, I'll apologize to you personally, if you thought it hurt your feelings. And people keep saying, have you heard his act? I have no desire to hear his act. I don't care about his act. I wouldn't have listened to anything.

I wouldn't have been aware of it if I hadn't seen the stories, which he admits to. You know, it's like, how do I know if he's going down wherever he was in the village and he was using the C.S. How do I know that he doesn't call me a, can I use a word against myself? Yes. He could call me a kike, right? And then I go, oh, well, that's cool. What is cool about it?

And there's nothing cool. And that is set up as if it's somehow a creative choice. It's brave. That's right. And the thing is, everybody thinks the article starts out with the premise that this guy didn't go and complain later. He just basically said, look, I guess they should have fired me. And that's considered to be a wonderful thing.

He should have been ashamed. He never actually said, he said, I'm going to say these kind of wild things again. Right? Right. Well, that's the thing. And, you know, so he did this stuff on a podcast and he said bad things. And then he did like a just unbelievably hacky, quote unquote Chinese accent like you would have heard in a 1950s movie, you know, or something like that. Again, I'm not saying he shouldn't be able to work for the rest of his life. I'm saying I'm like you. I have no desire to see his show. Right. And he may be very funny. But you know what? There are a lot of people out there who are very funny. Who? don't go around using racist words for Chinese people. So it's not like you have to choose between, oh, funny and racist and not funny. Like those are your only two choices.

That's like, you know, that's what bugs me is when they sort of set it up like that. Well, it's also calculated because if he, does you use the N word like that? Does you use the N word like that? My feeling is like I don't understand why any white person, no white person should ever use the N word. Any black person can use the N word. That's a simple rule. Right. Except Louis K. apparently. Right.

But he knows he knows not to use the N word. I'm not saying he would use the N word, but he knows where he can push. So as he's going, we get these, whatever, he knows that that's not, until

recently, people weren't even aware that there weren't admitting outside of the Asian community that there was all this hate. And there's been so much hate And so much, but because it's like a little bit left, he goes against a group that not is not everybody is like primed. He gets away with it. But that's worse to me. Well, you raise a good point.

It's like, where's the New Yorker article on Michael Richards? Yeah. And Michael Richards, what was, and does anyone I'm going to say that was, yeah, here's the other thing. Here's what I use the word cancel for. I've been thinking for the last week, I might cancel. Most of your shows. I may or may not cancel my subscription to the New Yorker. That is not me saying that I demand that the New Yorker stop writing articles about him.

I am expressing my outrage. And this is the thing, though, is to me, this is a perfect example, a small example of it. Let's say I was coming, I was the president of ABC programming. And someone came in and they said, I want you to put the Hitler hour on. Put the Nazi hour on. would I be obligated to put it on because of some misunderstanding of what free speech is? No, I'm not obligated to do things that go against. It's just like you're not obligated in a war to start shooting people indiscriminately.

I'm not obligated as a human being to sign off on white supremacy, you know, unless I'm at Fox News, in which case that's part of the pitch. Right. Well, and that gets to a thing also. It's like the people who sort of pride themselves on being these free speech warriors and they're always like, you know, are they're anti-cancel culture and you should be able to say anything. They don't actually believe that because there are things they won't say and there are things that they think are beyond the pale. It's just that they draw a different line, but then they set themselves up as, you know, as sort of these heroes of free speech. But they're not really like, again, they'll be like, oh, Seth Simon used a slur against Chinese people.

should he pay for that forever? No, but then they'll say, not Seth Simon, St. Billis. Yeah, I apologize to Seth Simons for that. But then if you gave them another example, you would say, oh, well, you can't say that. It's just that they draw the line in a different place, but then they set themselves up as these, you know, free speech warriors, which I just maintain they're actually not. Right. And they're not free speech choice because the other thing is like, as I started to talk about this article, I get a lot of people from the, you know, Legion of, I call him the Legion of Spanx, and I laugh hilariously to my skull. Because that's what those guys are ending up doing. They're in a hotel room spanking. And that's about as blue as I'm going to get. But the Legion of Spanx, I started to get this borderline things like, hey, why don't you come here and fight me? And it's like, I'm not going for the, they're saying free speech ends at me criticizing and telling the truth about them being racists or whatever that I'm saying. That's where free speech ends to them. No, exactly. And I just want, you're talking about the Legion of Skanks is what they're known as, what they're self-identified as. And it's a, it's sort of this comedy sort of, I don't know,

troop isn't the right word, but it's, it's Louis J. Gomez and I guess Dave Smith. I don't know if he's still part of that and some others. And I don't even know Dave's. I'm just recently hearing about Dave Smith. Dave Smith, I actually know. I mean, I, I look, I have a, Hey, let me finish, Andy. This is the kind of people that we should. No, I'm kidding. I was saying, like, I was going the other way. Let me finish, Eddie. I like him. I don't know anything about it. But I've been hearing not so good things about what he says, but I don't know. Dave Smith is a very nice guy, personally. I mean, I've known him for a while, but I don't like where his politics have gone. He's a libertarian who suddenly, as many libertarians did, became all too comfortable with the alt-right for my taste.

You know, I've said this joke before, Andy. He's heard it. In the old days, it was like, I was angry and comedy was so hacked with the, whether it's the guy the drive-thru-it-it-mcdonald sounds like. But I never thought it could end the world as we know it. I never thought people would die because Adam Carolla saying don't get vaccines. Yeah, it's sort of unbelievable where it's gone. We could go on for hours with this, but we're getting a little short on time. And I want to make sure I bring up, you've been doing a weekly podcast called Thought Spiral with the great J. Elvis Weinstein. Or did he say Weinstein or Weinstein? Okay, yeah. Okay. Well, he's wrong, but whatever, whatever. I guess if my name were Weinstein at this point, I would want to pronounce it differently, too. So, yes. Anyway, he's fantastic.

And you've been doing this podcast with him for like five years now, I think it is. But I love that you still, like, you title every episode, test episode. So you're up to like test episode 277. Test show. Test show. Test show. It was all Josh's idea. It's such a great idea. It makes me laugh every week. I mean, if sometimes a joke can get old, but this is a joke that keeps paying off because you're going to have various people and various, when they encounter the show, why wouldn't they think these were old catch shows? Right. And I also want to bring up that you do a sort of recurring Instagram live. It seems to be on a slightly less rigorous schedule than the podcast, which is weekly,

but you do it with Megan Kester, if I'm pronouncing her name, right? I think it's Kister. Well, I know it's Kester. Yeah, Maggie Keester. Yeah. I may be wrong, but I've been saying Kester for a long time now. Oh, okay. Anyway, Megan, is super funny and I would also like to point out she is one of the few comedians slash writers who actually earns the word brave. She went through so much shit trying to get people to understand

what a scumbag, Louis C.K. is before it became sort of like officially okay to believe that. At the festival that I was at. I know. And on my alternative comedy show she came up and was like, and she was, you know, people were so mean to her because the whole thing was like, you can't legally say,

this or you can legally. And who was prescient? Who knew what was going on, Andy? Megan Keester. She did. Yeah. Yeah. She's unbelievable. And yes, I didn't want to interrupt you, but she's just the greatest. And yeah, she's been sounding this alarm forever. Yeah, absolutely. And I just wanted to make sure that she got the credit for that, and you didn't. Wait, hold on a second there. See, now, they think that two Jews like Andy, we couldn't be a comedy duo. I think we could be. We're not the same Jew. You are more of a rational. And then now wait a second, Andy.

Why would you not celebrate Purim this year? Like that. And I'm like, I'm sick of the hamentire. Oh, let me get this straight. Is that the same holiday? We're sick of the, oh, Heyman. Heyman, we killed him. And now we have a cake in the shape of his hat.

That's nice. I have four hours. of this kind of material. No, I wish we had four hours to hear it. I just, I, people, I can't recommend enough to you go see an Andy Kindler show if he ever leaves his house again, which he may not actually since COVID. Have you been outside since COVID? I've been outside, but I haven't done any. One gig I did was in 2021, just for last, was doing a, thing and it was my only gig that I did and of course

I spent it, it's a TV gig and I spent half the time basically saying what else do I want to talk about because I was rusty. I had fun though. Didn't you do something with a hologram for that? No, that was the, I'm very proud of that. That was the most recent state of the industry

was via via hologram. That was the greatest because I was a totally different, I was nowhere near this industry, I was a different country. This is sort of your ideal world. Yeah, so I don't plan to go, my only plan is I did have a, and I'm not someone who likes to promote their stuff, but I did this a comedy album. I'm very proud of it, hence the humor, so proud of it, still available. I'm going to do another comedy album. That's what, that's, that's,

going to be my venture out. And there's a couple of good reasons for it, Andy. Sound exchange. I've got two words for you. When I had my album out, I was like a rich man for, I mean, Like a relatively rich man. You get a check for $20,000? This guy? God, do I sound like the cheapest guy? I've never gotten the Jay Leno thing. Yeah, come over to 3M.

We'll pay you $150,000 for 10 minutes. Well, if you do, I mean, if you actually do a, if you're going to record this comedy album live, I would encourage our listeners to get tickets for it if they can. I'm sure there will be plenty of seats available. So you shouldn't have a problem there. It's going to be COVID-friendly. It's different thing.

So it's like really, it's like one of these. It's hilarious. There's no ventilation. And we have testing during the show. Okay. While you're on stage, people are coming by with swabs. Yeah. Oh, is that like that commercial?

Swabs. I'm sorry. That was the worst pun. I'll ever do. But all I do all day is watch commercials that nobody else sees because they're not home during the day. And so other people aren't worried about who they're, who can afford a financial advisor, Andy? That's my question to you.

Why is every commercial about something that nobody I know can afford? I don't know. I only get commercials for catheters, so. And that steams me too, Andy, because I'll tell you, they go, you can get the comfortable catheter or you're the painless catheter or the smooth. Can you put it all in one thing? Shouldn't painless be the bottom line? You could have a painful catheter, but it's very colorful. And it takes...

I find it I like to get my catheters. I'll go on eBay and just get used ones because they're cheaper. So all I'm doing, Andy, is because I'm 65 and I've had a couple of procedures recently. All I'm thinking about is this procedure that I had that no one told me about a prostate, Andy. No one told me that I could go to the condo circuit in Florida and make a beautiful dollar talking about my prostate for the rest of my life and KoloGard jokes.

I don't like your favorite commercial I did. I honestly can't believe nobody told you that. I'm KoloGard. Would you, sure, can you focus, shoot a cut, can you focus more on where the small animated a box that you put your stuff in, your colon in?

Oh, hi, Kolo Guard. Okay, this is it. That's it. And you know what, Andy? I just want to say a lot of comics are afraid. They're afraid to go after commercial. They don't stay, but I, that's right where I go to. I can't believe I ate the whole thing. I can't believe you made the whole thing.

All right. I have to end this, unfortunately. I know, I really do. I really do. Andy, this is my only chance. Our Jewish producer, Seamus, is telling me that we have to get out. Pick up Andy's album. I know you can't tell from this interview, but he's very funny.

Absolutely pick up his album. Listen to his podcast. He makes me laugh more than anyone else in the world. Andy, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much. I just want to say to you, what was it with the matzo? We didn't have time to bake the bread. So now for 40,000 years, we eat it and it's horrible.

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