The Daily Beast Podcast - Comparing Trump to Tupac and MLK is Offensive and Wrong

Episode Date: August 29, 2023

On this week’s episode of The New Abnormal, why Trump’s mugshot does nothing to endear him to the Black community—despite the insistence of a number of Fox News hosts. Plus, Ari Cohn, the free speech counsel at TechFreedom, joins the podcast to discuss a new bill that tries, and fails, to prevent kids from seeing harmful content online. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What an excellent show we have today.

Daily Beast's political investigations reporter Jose Pallieri talks about his latest piece on Monica Wurrell, the latest democratically elected prosecutor fired by Governor Ron DeSantis. Then we'll talk to Ari Cohn, a free speech council for the tech policy think tank tech freedom. And he'll explain the Kids Online Safety Act making its way through Congress with bipartisan. and support. Why that might not be a good thing. But first, let's have some fun. So, Danielle, clear your calendar. March 4th, 2024.

That is the date that Judge Chutkin has set for Donald Trump's January 6th case, the federal case being brought by Jack Smith. She pretty much told the Trump lawyers in, she used different words, but she pretty much told them to fuck off. Yeah. I think that's fair to say. because they wanted this trial to happen in like 2026. And on Mars, I think.

So, yeah, I think they were moving to move the jurisdiction to more of an interstellar locale. But she said, no, we're going to do this in March of next year. So that puts us pretty squarely in primary season, doesn't it? Yeah, I'm pretty sure if we're not mistaken that this may be in and around Super Tuesday. And here's my feeling about my Jamaican compadry. U.S. District Judge Tanya Chuckin, is that what I want to believe, Andy, about 2024, what I am praying for literally every single day, all day, is that 2024, let it be the find out part of the fuck around. Because Donald Trump has more fucking court dates on his calendar

than anything I've ever seen in my life. Like, first of all, none of us can go on vacation. So there will be no spring break unless we're going to literally visit a fucking courthouse. But this judge, unlike Aileen Cannon down in Florida, is not in the pocket of Donald Trump, is not trying to undermine our democracy, and is ready for a speedy fucking trial. Look, Jack Smith wanted January 2nd for this trial and she said, okay, let's give them two extra months. But if you're watching Fox News, which I don't, but if you're watching Fox, then And you're hearing from Trump's crackpot fucking cracker jack attorneys that are saying they're good to go. They're ready.

They run their mouths all over cable news, but then want to come to court and be like, oh, this is unfair. Donald Trump couldn't get a fair trial on this planet unless it's all white people, unless it's in an all white county in an all white state and it's 90% MAGA. So I think that he and the Republican Party is in for a rude awakening come March. This is what I'm praying. for. Yeah, I mean, as you pointed out, there were all these other competing trials and dudes got more court dates than Carlos Alcaraz at this point. Come on. We'll have to see how these other trials fit in. I have to think at this point, like the, remember the Alvin Bragg

indictment? Oh, when we thought it was a big deal. Yes. No, exactly. Exactly. That feels like it was like a decade ago. And it's also the least of these charges. And I think he's already made it fairly clear that he's open to pushing back that trial. That trial just needs to, I'm not saying it needs to go away if dude is guilty. He needs to be tried. But it clearly pales in significance to the other three cases that we have going on right now. But it's absolutely unreal that we are sitting here trying to figure out when the court dates are going to be and how it's going to interfere with the primary season because this is the guy who more than likely is going to be the Republican nominee. Like you reach a point where you're like, what do you even say about this stuff anymore?

Like, this is the reality we're living in. These motherfuckers posted pictures of Tupac and Biggie. I just have to make a note of this. These fucking black Republicans who are in the pocket of the white supremacist Republican Party because they are getting a check have been trying to make. the case on social media that Donald Trump is now an icon like a rapper because apparently what they believe about black people and black culture is that all we do is identify with criminals and crooks which by the way we fucking don't and so the idea that you think that Donald Trump

having a mugshot somehow makes him down with black people just goes to show you that you know nothing and that skin folk ain't all kinfolk that is not the thing so for folks i'd like to remind you that you do not need to be white to uphold white supremacy you do not need to have white skin also interject Vivek and nicky and the rest of them right clarence thomas and the rest of them so no the mugshot does not show that he is down okay the worst of those is the ones that have the Trump Monshot and MLK's booking photos side by side. And I just look at that and I'm like, well, okay, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here because you would be all for Martin Luther King riding in jail.

So I'm not even sure what kind of comparison you're trying to make here, but it just, it doesn't work. It's not it. No. And now we come to, oh, God, the portion of the podcast where we once again have to talk about a shooting. And we once again have to talk about. A shooter, in this case a white guy who killed three black people.

From what we can tell, he killed them because they were black. And once again, we have a guy who uses Nazi imagery. In this case, he had a swastika on his rifle. And I know we say this every time, but this shit is never going away, is it? No, it's not. And to just pour alcohol into a wound that is already filled with salt. This happened on the 60th anniversary of the March on Washington at a time when the mainstream media is failing, fucking failing spectacularly and purposefully to connect the dots between the violent

fucking rhetoric from the Republican white supremac party and actions by white supremacist. These people are not lone wolves. They are part of the audience and the constituency and the base of the Republican Party that is consistently brainwashed by Fox News and Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis and Jim Jordan and the rest of them, right? You have a shooting that is racially motivated, that is racist, that is a hate crime because this person hated black people. What is the difference you see between a person that takes up a gun and a person that tries to erase black people from history and silence their ability to vote and be full citizens in this fucking country. There isn't one.

They are both about subjugation and terror. And that's the connection that folks are failing to make. Because it's uncomfortable because they don't want to sit with how they are part and parcel of the problem. Yeah. I mean, the one builds on the other and vice versa. They feed off each other. This killer, from what we know, first went to Edward Waters University, which is a historically black college in Florida. But a security guard saw him putting on his tactical vest and he fled. And then he went and found black people somewhere else because he didn't

care about a particular person. All he cared about was killing black people. But to your point, yeah, this is why watching Ron DeSantis try to give a speech about this was so infuriating. But But at the same time, it was great to hear the crowd boo and heckle him. And for him to sit there and act like this action is disconnected from the stuff he is doing as governor, from the stuff he is saying as a presidential candidate, is just absolutely infuriating. And these connections need to be drawn. They need to be drawn more clearly. They need to be talked about more clearly.

They need to be shouted from the mountaintop, as someone once said. We as a society have to reckon with this. because failing to reckon with this is what got us here in the first place. Can you imagine that the shooting that takes place that takes out three black souls wouldn't be able to be talked about, is not able to be talked about inside of the Florida schools right now? Because that would have the teacher and the administration breaking the law that Ronda Santos has put in place. Imagine being, and I want everyone to think about this, Imagine being a black kid, a black child that lives in Jacksonville and going into school that you're already terrified to go to because of school shootings just being the norm.

Also, just a couple of weeks ago, we saw a shooting at a football game in Oklahoma because that's fucking normal at a high school game. And you're asking your teacher, an adult, like what happened? Should I be scared? Asking for some clarity and them just moving on? afraid to address that child their needs, their worry, can't even have a basic conversation because of a law that that governor put in place. And then he wants to show up at a vigil that was put together by black people for black people to do a campaign fucking stop.

Miss me with it. Yeah, I was thinking about this. You'd have to teach this in Florida schools as a person shot three other people. I have to say it was really satisfying to see him booed. It's not enough. We as a country need to do more, but the people there are to be commended for basically saying hell no to Ron DeSantis and for him trying to get up there and act like he even gives his shit about this because I just don't believe he does.

At this point, it is really hard for me to reconcile the party that wears AR-15 lapel pins with any kind of outrage or sympathy that they express in the way. of these all too common shootings. I just can't reconcile it. Yeah, because it shouldn't be reconciled. And it should be called out. And it should be made plain for the American public. Like these people that are telling you that they want to send out thoughts and prayers.

They want to post during Black History Month. They want to send out the one fucking recycle quote from Martin Luther King. They want to post the picture of Martin Luther King that was going to prison that was arrested for trying to integrate our society. for telling the truth about white supremacy and you want to post that next to Donald Trump and you do so without any fucking irony? Like, it is crazy. The planet that these people live on.

And then you see right now what is happening at one university, which is probably indicative of what is happening over the entire state of Florida with teachers and professors and students just leaving 40% at new college. They don't have any professors. The students are disenrolling.

The teachers are fleeing the state because the board has been taken over by conspiracy theorists, anti-democratic figures. Yeah, New College, as you said, DeSantis pretty much booted half the board of trustees, replaced them with people like Chris Rufo, who is one of the most heinous Americans we've got going right now. Surprise, surprise, the students don't want to go there anymore. And this is a good school. This was a school with a really good academic reputation. And now they want to base it on colleges like Hillsdale and stuff like that. And they're eliminating gender studies programs and everything else that they can't wrap their tiny heads around. And wow, shocker.

Professors don't want to teach there and students don't want to go there. But they did add sports teams, Danielle. I don't know who the fuck's going to play on them. I don't either. I'm like, okay. It's just really sad what he is doing to the educational system down there. We spend a lot of time focusing fire on him as he deserves, but we got to talk more about what this is doing to the kids in Florida.

Because what it's doing is it's setting them up for failure in life. He's basically denying them a good education. And I'm talking about not just at new college, but I'm also talking about at the public school level, the K through 12 level, by not wanting to teach reality and by wanting to, you know, I guess shield these students from the truth, he is just setting them up for failure later in life. And that is just sad and it's reprehensible. And I will point out, this is the party that loves to proclaim that they're about family values and that they care about kids. And no, they don't. And no, they don't. And what they're doing are these kids is just, it's absolutely

horrific and I don't know. There has to be some way that we can get to these kids because this is the problem. They spent all their time talking about feigning indignation over quote-unquote indoctrination, but that's what they are. They're indoctrulators. They're not even indoctrinating with the truth, which would be, okay, one thing, but they are just indoctrinating these kids with a head full of lies. And they've taken it to the college level with new college and people don't want to go there and teachers don't want to teach there. And I honestly don't understand why any teacher would want to work in the state of Florida right now. And that is unbelievably tragic. Yeah. And I will say this, that you ask like what can be done to help these kids and what the association of African

American life and history is talking about the relaunching of freedom schools. And they are in St. Petersburg, Florida. And that was a thing, right? During the civil rights era, freedom schools were launched to teach and uplift and provide like the truth about American history, about black excellence, about this country in a way that the public school system before it was integrated and even still after does not teach the entirety about this country. And so these freedom schools are beginning to pop up around Florida. And frankly, my feeling should be across the country, should be everywhere. Because the denial of America's just grotesque, cruel, oppressive, subjugating past of enslaved black people, I learn things

every day. Every day from black historians, I learn about the tremendous lies that have been filled in our K-12 system. So it is so important and it isn't just, it's especially important for white kids. And that's why Ron DeSantis is going all in and the Republican Party is going all in to make sure that white kids don't know about their ancestors part in oppression, subjugation, brutality, rape and violence. Yeah, that's absolutely true. And you noted that the freedom schools were big during the civil rights era. And we should point out the freedom schools were established both for black students and also for poor whites. And the whole idea was, to give people an education who otherwise weren't getting it and weren't being served by the state.

And it's just so sad that we have to go back to these concepts. Like, these are the kinds of things that should be history, literally. Like, we should be learning about this as something that people had to do in the past because of injustice. Not that we have to bring back now because of the same goddamn injustice. I mean, how close are we to have to establish a new underground railroad? Like all of these concepts should be things that we learn about in history about terrible times that don't exist anymore. And yet here we are in the year of our Lord, 2023, and we're having to bring back freedom schools. It's just unreal to me.

And, you know, I'll tell you that there's a post that was going around on social media, that it was a picture of a church, Allendale United Methodist Church. And on the sign, it says those preventing history from being taught intend to repeat. it. And that just sits in my soul because that is it. Like, why are we going back to freedom schools? Why are we going back to thinking about how to get people out of these hate states that the Republican party is going to try in 2024 to turn into a hate nation? Like, why are we doing these things? Because they intend on repeating our damned history. That's what they are doing. This is taking the old and making it new and worse and worse. Yeah, and this is why over and over again, we see these shooters that have Nazi tattoos or swast stickers on their guns and are just straight

up racist, anti-Semitic pieces of trash. This is why. It's a lack of education. And like you said, that quote is amazing. And that's what we're seeing right now. And it's just horrific. Folks, am very happy to welcome to the new abnormal Jose Pallieri, who is the political investigations reporter at The Daily Beast where we are Jose. You wrote a bombshell piece that has my blood running hot. As Ron DeSantis usually does, the piece is entitled The Real Story Behind Ron DeSantis's newest fired prosecutor. And I got to tell you that first off, when the prosecutor was fired, This should send not just shockwaves through the state of Florida, but it should be sending shockwaves around the country.

And it just isn't. And your reporting and investigations are the reason why journalism during the time of the rise of authoritarianism in this country is so goddamn important. And so I just want you to give us a primer on this piece. I cannot express it enough, whether or not you live. live in Florida or not, this is what the Republican Party as a whole is looking towards as a model. So please give us the 50,000 foot view of this investigation. So there are three basic layers to this story. The first one, which some people might be

tangentially aware of, is that in Florida, Governor Ron DeSantis has been engaging in an anti-woke crusade. And part of that is by plucking democratically elected prosecutors from office, first in Tampa, now in Orlando. Now, we know that he did it recently in Orlando because he targeted Monique Worell saying that she wasn't doing her job, right? Her prosecutors, she was soft on crime, and so he was going to pull her from office and put somebody in there who was actually going to enforce the mandatory minimum sentences that the state has on the books. Now, there's a criticism already that this is unfair, it's not democratic, you know, it's not up to him. She was doing her job, but he didn't like the way she was doing it, right? The right place to do this is at the

ballot box, support her opponent, vote her out next year, sure. But there's another layer to this. The deeper layer is that for more than a year, his advisors had been secretly communicating with sheriff's offices locally to plot her removal. They were gathering material from her office, putting in public records requests, getting statistics that they could twist and reshape to make it look like she wasn't doing her job, which, again, makes it makes us even more uncomfortable, right? Because this is anti-democratic behavior. But then there's a third layer that we were able to uncover in this story,

which was that actually what World's office was doing was that she was preparing to pull the trigger on a massive police corruption investigation in a place called Osceola County, which is just outside of Orlando. And she was going, as we understand it, She was going to be cracking down on routine falsification of records by deputies who were covering up for each other's crimes, whether that be use of force or lethal action against other people, where they would falsify police reports, notarized documents under other people's names, and break the law. She was about to pull the trigger on that, and just when she was about to do that, that was when the governor's office pounced on her office and removed her from office. Now, I have to state right from the beginning, there are certain details that did not make it into this piece because I have agreed to hold back some details that could put people's lives at risk, could ruin investigations, could stop people from holding these officers accountable. I'm not going to do that. I actually want there to be justice. But I said as much as I could say without getting in the way of certain investigations that very well might be scuttled anyway at this point. But when we zoom out, back out, Let's zoom back out to that 50,000-foot view of what's going on in Florida.

Ron DeSantis has shown us a model for authoritarian power that functions with the Republican base. He is loved by Floridians. Republicans in Florida support him, and he is trying to bring that to the national stage. So if we want to look at a preview of what we can expect from a President Ron DeSantis, look no further than Florida because it's happening right now. You know what's wild to me, Jose, is first off, Not one goddamn journalist that has sat down with Ron DeSantis has asked him about this. Not one person has said, your model for America looks like Florida.

And in Florida, you have banned transgender people, youth from basically existing. You have a race, black history, you've done all of these things. And now you're going even further, which is to remove duly elected, people from their positions because you don't like how they're doing their job. Talk to me about your conversations with the people that have been removed and specifically with the court case that was brought where a federal judge said, oh, the governor has overstepped his bounds, but I'm also not going to do anything about it. Let's take a look at what happened in Tampa. So Andrew Warren was the state attorney for Hillsborough County.

And when he was removed from office, last year at this time, apparently August is the time for Governor DeSantis to remove democratically elected prosecutors. A year ago, when he was removed from office, he sued to get his job back. He sued in federal court. And rightfully so, because federal court is where you would assert that a governor has violated the state constitution, where the governor has violated your right to free speech. you are not going to find justice in Florida courts when the governor is appointing people to the bench that will make the decision on the issue you're bringing up, right? So that's why he took it to federal court,

which is why it was so odd when the federal judge eventually ruled after a trial, a full trial where documents came out, testimony came out, showing the extent to which the governor engaged in this like cloak and dagger politics to pull this off, that the federal judge said the law was broken here. It violated the state's constitution. You can't do this. You shan't do this. It was wrong. You violated his free speech rights. This prosecutor has, as a politician, has a right to say that he opposes the increasingly stringent anti-abortion laws in Florida. But, and this is the surprising move, the judge then said, but it's not in my hands because I'm a federal judge. This is a a state issue, take it up with the state. Here's the problem. When the checks and balances don't

function, when the people elect strong men or authoritarian's into power, we are on the precipice of having the gears of our system not function, which makes it all the more important for the very few decision makers who can actually weigh in and write the course to do something. And that is something that this federal judge chose not to do. And so Andrew Warren lost that case, through and through. It is gone. And in talking to Monique Warrell, I asked her, what will you do now? You know how this can go. And she told me, she knows. She looked at that case very closely. And so she'll be making a decision sometime in the next two weeks, what she's going to do and how some sort of legal challenge will go about. But she told me she has no faith in having Florida state courts

handle this. And in federal court, she knows, she better hope that she doesn't get a Trump appointee or a judge who is going to throw his or her hands up and say, Governor DeSantis can continue his power grab in his state. It's his state. Let's remember it's not his state. I'm sitting here and I'm listening to you and I'm like, I don't understand how states rights, how these governors are functioning like this is his kingdom. It is part of the United States of America, which means that it is bound by the rules of the Constitution. And so I'm confused at how a federal judge looks at this case and says, well, it's wrong. and I wish he wouldn't do it, but he can basically do whatever the fuck he wants. We are going to find ourselves in these court battles, not just this one, but many others,

debating about technicalities and losing sight of the bigger picture when we are on a very steady road toward a fascist theocracy. As a reporter covering not just Trump, but mass shootings and cybersecurity and national security issues now for several years, my reading list has been taking a look at what happened in Spain and in Italy and in Germany during the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, because it's instructive. People oftentimes point to Nazi Germany as the primary example. There are others. There are very good examples of what happened in Republican Spain and how the military and the police

quickly align themselves to these power brokers. We're seeing that now in Florida too. There was not a mistake. It was not a coincidence that DeSantis aligned himself with the sheriff's offices when pulling out this prosecutor because she was going to be holding these sheriff's. deputies accountable. And police across the country are increasingly lining themselves up behind the Trumps and DeSantis's of the world. We're seeing that happen in Florida. And as of yet, no one has stopped DeSantis's power grab. I mean, federal judges have held back his don't say

gay law. They have paused aspects of his policies in the state. But he's still managed to put together a book-bending counsel made up of conspiracy theorist moms, something else that we were able to surface, and their decisions are plucking books from the shelves at public schools across Florida. I grew up in Florida, and I had nothing nice to say about the education system down there under then-Governor Bush. Okay. The F-CAT, the F-Cat, which was the standardized test there, almost ensure that I would not get a good education. And yet here I am. I fought to get out of that one. But it is arguably much worse now. One of my best friends is a teacher at public school. in Florida. My family members are now in public schools in Florida, and they are suffering because

of these policies. I'm so glad that you brought this up because the reality is that Florida's education system, it has always, I believe, out of our 50 states, been somewhere circling the drain in terms of the education that it affords to the citizens there. But what is happening and what is not being reported outside of your very thorough investigations is the sinister nature in which this is occurring, but who is aligning themselves? Because when I was reading your piece, prosecutors and police officers used to work side by side to put criminals away. You have internal investigations that happen inside of police departments to make sure that everyone is following the code of conduct. I can go back to Donald Trump in Suffolk County, New York, where I am from on Long Island,

telling a bunch of police officers, don't be too kind. Don't even bend their heads before you put them in the back of the van. Just throw them in there to rousing applause. I remember that all too well. There are two moments that sent chills down my spine during campaign speeches for Trump. I remember one of them was that one in Long Island. The other was a speech he gave years ago where he said, I am the law and order. And then he paused.

Yeah. Possed. And then said candidate. I was like, oh, that was not a mistake at all. prosecutors are supposed to work hand in hand with police officers. They have a job to do, a job that I respect. One of the things that I love about being an investigative journalist is that I have a prosecutorial mindset. I will find wrongdoing and I will hold you accountable for what you did.

I truly believe that most cops think the same way. And prosecutors do as well. What's happening in Florida right now is that when this prosecutor tries to take that same level of accountability to police officers, that's where she's running into a wall. That's where this governor is swooping in to try to pluck her from office before she can do that. One of the things that came up during DeSantis's speech, justifying his removal of Warrell from office, was when he brought up someone, he's a 17-year-old who killed his girlfriend, his pregnant girlfriend, Lorenzo Larry. And he mentioned the fact that he was out on the streets when he should have been behind bars because he had previous offenses. and that he pinned directly on Whirl's office.

What didn't get stated in his speech was what we were able to learn a little more about in the course of reporting this story, which was that this young man, Lorenzo Larry, apparently shot and killed a woman in her 20s. And then the deputies who were investigating this, the detective who was investigating this, had not completed her report. She sent over a draft report to the prosecutor. in Wharles' office, essentially stating, we've got the goods, we think he probably did something wrong here, but I don't have enough yet for probable cause, probable cause to make an arrest.

Now, for those who don't know, probable cause is a pretty low bar. I mean, like, probable cause is you're pulling someone over and you smell something from their car, and you've got probable cause to search it because this smells a little weird. There's probably drugs in that car, right? She didn't have probable cause to arrest him for killing a woman, saying that he might have done it in self-defense. So the prosecutor takes a look at this and says, if you don't have probable cause, I certainly do not have beyond a reasonable doubt to indict this young man for killing this woman. So if you can't arrest her, I can't indict her. Call me back when you're ready,

and then we'll take it from there. Months later, he kills this teenage girlfriend of his, and now the sheriff's office goes running to the governor's office and says, this prosecutor let go of this young man. He did this because of her. Well, no, as I understand it, What actually was going on here was that the detective wasn't ready to conduct that arrest. That's why he was out. Had she submitted the paperwork, the prosecutors would have actually indicted him, and he would have been behind bars. He wouldn't have killed that teenage girlfriend.

And so taking a closer look at the specific instances that are being cited by the governor and his justification for removing her from office, deserve a closer look, because as I stated in my story, it might not be a liberal, soft-on-crime prosecutor, but actually just ineptitude on the part of the deputies themselves. But one of the questions that I do want to ask, Jose, too, is as you're doing these investigations, which are bringing to light some really what I will refer to, not a lawyer, but I will refer to some really nefarious acts by supposed lawmakers and police officers that is happening in Florida, is that is there a fear?

You said, I don't want to put certain details in here and potentially scuttle future investigations. But is there also a growing fear potentially for yourself and the people that you are covering and how you're covering them because of how the police and the governorship are completely aligned? And the fact that these people are not above violence against their enemies. This isn't just about a razor and removal. This is also about subjugation and oppression. And so I'm curious, as a person that is on a beat that is becoming increasingly dangerous to do, how you are actually feeling doing it. In no uncertain terms, I will state that I am not afraid because my eyes are open going into this about what we're dealing with here.

But we're at a make it or break it stage for our republic. This is the time when we will be holding people accountable, Because if we don't, in a very short period of time, it will be too late to do that through the legal means we have at our disposal. That's the thing that if you pay attention to history professors who take a look at fascist movements and democratic societies that fall apart, what they keep saying is that this is the most pivotal time to be loud, to hold people accountable, and to expose what's happening. Because if we don't, if these people continue to push forward, they will be beyond accountability. And at that point, the law enforcement apparatus that is at their disposal will be enforcing the laws that they enact themselves, right? Because they are law enforcement. They don't make judgment calls.

We can have a big philosophical debate about whether or not they should, but they enforce the law. And if these people are the ones making the laws, then they will be on the front lines. knocking on your door. At the moment, and we see this in parallel with the Trump cases that are going on in New York and D.C. and Atlanta, this is one last shot at making this justice system function in conjunction with the electoral system, because we already saw in 2020 that Trump and his MAGA movement tried to dissolve the electoral system. They are currently trying to dissolve the judicial system. If these fail, we've got nothing. And then we know where this goes. Then it's not about words. Then it's about action. And that gets really dangerous real quick.

And so at the moment, what we've got is a legal fight, right, to try to get her back in office, a legal fight to hold back authoritarian from taking a more prominent elected office. But if what you're asking me is, what's on the line, everything is. on the line at this point. We've got to be really careful about what we do going forward. And if I've learned anything from studying resistance movements in failing democracies, make your friends now and get involved. Because if you're not heard now, you won't be heard later. Jose Pallieri, thank you so much for making the time for the new abnormal. Thank you for this piece, folks. It is the real story behind Ron DeSantis's newest fired prosecutor. It is definitely worth

your time and share and reposting and all of those things. Jose, thank you. And I hope you'll join us again soon. My pleasure. Thank you. Last month, a bill called the Kids Online Safety Act, or COSA, advanced out of the Senate Commerce Committee. Supporters of COSA claim it will stop online platformings from targeting and recommending harmful content to minors. But First Amendment attorney Ari Cohen, who is the Free Speech Council at Tech Freedom, a non-partisan nonprofit think tank devoted to technology, law, and policy, and the preservation of civil liberties in our digital world, is here to explain why that ain't so. Ari, thanks for joining us. Thanks so much for having me, Andy.

So let's talk a little bit first about the history of COSA. A form of this bill was first introduced last year, right? Yes, that's correct. It's been tinkered with and modified, but they introduced it last year, and they tried to, you know, slam it through as Congresses want to do, you know, in the end of the year rush. And it failed, thankfully, because the first version was, it was rough. And it hasn't gotten much better, but we knew it was going to pop back up. And here we are once again. There's nothing that will stop people in the something must be done crowd from trying over

and over again. When they reintroduced it this year or newly introduced it, there were a bunch of amendments that were purportedly aimed at satisfying critics. And yet, as you said, here we are again. What were these amendments and why haven't they satisfied? tech freedom, the ACLU, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, multiple gay and trans rights groups, etc. Well, that's the real shit of it, really. They made some superficial changes, some of which may have been well intended, but the overwhelming majority of which were really just aimed at

trying to say, look, we fixed the problems, when really they did nothing of the sort. So without trying to, you know, do a red line of the bill for you via audio, which absolutely nobody. wants to hear. One of the key problems in the last bill was that it basically, you had to know who was a minor and who was not a minor, so you knew who the restrictions and the requirements applied to, which of course would require age verification. And that's problematic for practical, constitutional, privacy, all reasons. It's a bad idea and it shouldn't be required. And so they tried to skirt around that by saying, in this new version, that age verification is not required, but you still have to do these things when you have knowledge

fairly implied that a user is a minor. And if you ask me what that means, I will tell you I have no earthly idea, and neither do they. Well, there goes my next question. Talk to me about what's in this bill and what's so bad about it. At the end of July, Tech Freedom wrote a letter with your name on it to the Commerce Committee saying COSA takes a fundamentally flawed approach that at best achieves little protection for minors and it worse threatens to actively undermine their best interests while simultaneously intruding on the fundamental civil liberties of all Americans. So let's take that first part first. Why would COSA achieve little protection to minors if that's supposed to be its reason for being? Right. So you have to look at the section that's called the duty of care. And that

basically requires platforms to act in the best interests of miners in the design and operation of platforms or users that they know or not have knowledge fairly implied are minors. But there's a few problems with that. First of all, nobody knows what the fuck it means. They don't know what it means. I don't know what it means. The platforms sure doesn't know what it means. But I guess I'll point out three things. The first is the overarching question. These people already don't trust the platforms, why on earth would you want to outsource to them the job of figuring out what is or isn't good for minors? That just seems ass backwards if you don't trust them in the first place. It's baffling. I don't know what they're thinking. Second of all, which minors? Miners is defined in

the bill as between, I believe, 13 and 16 or 17. But in terms of developmental stage, that is a pretty broad range. What a 13-year-old couldn't handle, a 16-year-old probably could. It just requires, in more ways than one, these platforms to treat all minors of the entire age range is just one amorphous blob that has some kind of best interest. I don't know how you define that because every person is different. Take, for example, Teen Vogue in the offline world. you see these pictures of these beautiful, thin models. And a lot of people, perhaps rightfully think that causes body image issues in a lot of teen girls. But it doesn't in others.

So how do you act in the best interest of one minor when how they perceive and react to content is entirely different than how another teen might? And if you try to act in all of their best interests, then you quite obviously act in none of their best interests because you're not really actually doing. anything. But all this comes together to say, well, that means basically these platforms have to act as a psychiatrist or a psychologist for each individual teen, which is bananas. It is impossible. And trying to impose liability for failing to basically know how any particular individual will react to any piece of content, it doesn't make any sense. It's half-baked at best. What does this bill want from these sites? Does it want them to not allow a teenager's access to the site? Does it want them to not publish anything that a teenager might see, that some teenagers somewhere might be harmed by it? What does this bill want?

It's entirely unclear, but I can tell you what's going to happen. What's going to happen is that platforms are not going to allow anyone that is or they know or they think might be a minor to access anything that could relate to mental health. health, which is literally everything under the sun, because I get sad, like, looking at random ass shit all the time. Eating disorders, which by the way, you know, also cuts off some content that actually aims to prevent eating disorders or any of these other, you know, categories. They're just going to cut them off entirely because that is the only way to ensure that they are preventing and mitigating, quote, the harmful effects from that type of content. And that's, does a disservice to minors, to their parents, to, to every,

one. I mean, really, what this bill is trying to do is established social media companies as the parents of all the teenagers of America, and I really can't think of a worse idea. Yeah, no, absolutely. Is this where you say in the letter, is this the second part simultaneously intruding on the fundamental civil liberties of all Americans? Because, again, how do you do this without requiring ID? I mean, you can't. There's no way to ensure that you are in compliance. And let's not forget, this bill gives state attorneys general who are wildly partisan and absolutely insane, the authority to enforce the statute, which is going to result in Kiss James on the left doing crazy shit about hate speech. And Ken Paxton on the right, well, he might be out,

so maybe not him, doing crazy stuff about trans content. You're right. You can't do it. And the worst part about it is that this like, this doesn't just affect minors. People need to understand this affects all of us, because if they have to figure out who's the minor with a high degree of accuracy to cover their own asses, they're going to require ID from us. Say goodbye to that anonymous account the E's to troll your boss or, you know, talk shit about, you know, elected officials without fear of reprisal. That's it. You are now going to be traceable to all of your social media postsings. And there are some people who might love that, namely defamation plaintiff's lawyers, I guess. But, you know, everyone else kind of gets thrown under the bus.

there. And we've been here before. Congress tried this in the late 90s. Okay, yes. And they tried it in a much narrower way. They said, this is just for accessing effectively porn. And the court said, no, if that would chill people's willingness to access this content, which is sensitive, if they can't do it anonymously. And also, age verification just isn't reliable. And I'm sitting here and I will tell you today, age verification is no more reliable than it was in 1999. I promise you that. And here's how I know. First of all, credit cards were the method back then.

That hasn't changed. But why don't credit cards work? Because you can't really tell who's putting in the info of the credit card. But I could just as easily steal my older siblings ID or an older friend's ID and scan that. So really uploading government documents doesn't do anything either. It's the same problem as credit card. And there's some that have the selfie verification and what have you. I have an eight-year-old nephew who has figured out how to like master

3D modeling in like really like complicated CAD programs. And the kid's not even 10 years old yet. And I Google searched how to bypass or trick selfie verification. This kid could figure it out in probably under 120 seconds. It is easy and kids are tech savvy these days and they're going to do it. It still does absolutely nothing to verify anyone's, age or identity. It's just not feasible to expect it. The bill, you're talking about this. Old Bill was COPA, right? The Child Online Protection Act? Yeah. And the Communications Decency Act before it. Right. Okay. Look, the people who wrote the Kids Online Safety Act are they, I don't want to say, are they just stupid? Yes. That's a loaded question. Well, exactly. But they obviously know this.

So what have they done in this bill that they think will make it constantly? constitutionally protected, et cetera, in a way that those other things weren't. They say, you know, they write in the bill, nothing should be construed to require age verification. But if the rest of the downstream effects of the bill and the liability make it so that the only way platforms can actually be sure that they're in a compliance is age verification, it is six of one half dozen of another. It's a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, you don't have to do this. We're going to sue your brains out if you don't. Courts aren't that stupid. And frankly, I think they just don't care.

And that's the problem with legislators today is they want to be able to say, I did something. And once it gets tossed up by the court, they've already collected the checks. They've gotten the media hits. They've gotten everything they wanted out of it. And if the courts strike it down, not only is they not care, then they can just fundraise off of that and be like, oh, the evil courts are, you know, backing up the corporations.

And that's just another thing they can campaign on. They don't have to care. Why doesn't Ari Cohen want our children to be safe? That's all I'm taking from this interview. That's what they said when it came to comic books. That's what they said when it came to TV. Our parents, my parents, you know, they were born in the 50s. I'm sure that my grandparents said to, oh, my God, the TV and the house is going to destroy the youth of America because they didn't understand it.

They didn't grow up with it. Well, the Elvis with the hips. Yeah. Don't talk about the gyrations. we might get censored here. The thing is, when you're a younger generation that grows up with the technology, you find a way to integrate it into your life. It goes.

It works eventually. We figure it out. But the older generation, who didn't grow up with it and it's a brand new scary thing for them, they can't help but feel this is the doomsday for American youth. And it's been the doomsday for American youth for the past century. So I don't know what to tell you. we're still here. Yeah, I have heard stories about kids who grew up in the 1980s, figuring out how to make a cable box, how to get in between stations to watch porn. I have heard stories

about this, Ari. I've heard stories too, and I couldn't tell you from who, but I've heard them. No, but I have definitely heard stories about it. I want to point out to our listeners who may not know this. COSA is sponsored by Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal, and President Joe Biden has called for it to be passed. So I've asked this exact question of other guests already, including the great Mike Maznick and the Electronic Frontier Foundation, Cindy Cohn. Why do both parties suck on stuff like this? Because we have a bunch of geriatrics trying to regulate technology they don't understand. And Richard Blumenthal has been at this since before he was in the Senate. He was trying to get MySpace to do identity verification in like 2005. The dude is like Senator Karen. It's crazy. He's found his horse.

and he is going to continue beating it until it reincarnates and beat it again. It's his hobby horse. And it's also co-sponsored by Senator Blackburn. And it's honestly, it's cynical. It's cynical politics. It is, ah, you know, this is, I found something that, you know, the parent voter segment is concerned about. I can speak to their issue and I can sit here and thump the table about it. And it'll get me attention.

And it'll look like I'm doing something. But if they really wanted to do something, they would actually engage with the critics to try and fix the bill to make it something that might work instead of something that's going to be struck down pretty easily. But they didn't. When they made these amendments, they did not consult with people who had criticized the text of the bill, really. They consulted with the people that were going to give them positive reinforcement about it and then said, oh, well, we consulted with people. They wanted to make it seem like they had made a good faith effort. And that is a lie. Is there anything good in this bill? Is there a framework or anything or anything or

one part of it where you're just like, okay, that would be a good thing? Or is it just garbage from start to finish? I mean, it's hard to say that there's a part of it worth saving that would be effective by itself. I mean, the duty of care part of this all is just so unworkable that it just needs to be reimagined. But you talk about, give me, give me a bill about privacy. Give me a bill about enabling parents to learn about how parental controls and filtering software can work. Give me those things. Those things could actually make a difference and not be as intrusive.

Empower parents. Don't try and take over for them. And frankly, I got to say the whole, oh, well, kids are smarter than their parents and they're just going to get around it. Well, you don't think kids are going to get around whatever the government sets up either. Like, you're just destroying your own argument here. So the answer is just to educate parents, empower parents, and just don't shit all over the First Amendment. it's pretty easy to not do that. Richard Blumenthal is not necessarily smarter than a fifth crater.

It's hubris. He's got an incredible amount of hubris. If it came out of Senator Blumenthal's mouth, it is perfect and nothing needs to be done to it. Well, look, he served in the Vietnam War, so we have to cut him some, oh, no, wait. Deep cut. Yeah, I know, but I've hated him for a long time. I just want to point out, again, Blumenthal is a Democrat. Joe Biden has called for this passing.

The Conservative Heritage Foundation loves this bill, and they have some great ideas in their mind about how they're going to use it, don't they? Sure, they do. They think, because, you know, they're always arguing. And the whole, you know, anti-LGB side is always saying, oh, well, all this content, making kids question their sexuality or their gender is leading to depression, anxiety, and suicide. That's exactly what a Republican state attorney general is going to do. or maybe even a Republican federal attorney general, depending on the next election.

They're going to say, well, by allowing kids to see this stuff, you're contributing to this mental health crisis and you're not preventing and mitigating these harms. You have to remove that stuff from kids' sites on the internet. I mean, it is a ready-made censorship tool. And if you're on the right, you should be equally afraid. The same thing is going to be argued from blue state AGs about things like guns or like, ah, The hateful speech going around that's causing mass shootings means that you have to keep kids from seeing all this stuff. But here's the crazy part, really, if it wasn't crazy enough already.

This bill doesn't require that any harm to a minor have come from the minor's use of the platform. So take the racist online speech thing, two adults spewing vile garbage at each other. And then one of them goes and commits some kind of racist mass shooting. and it's terrible. And a child dies, God forbid. And that child happened to be a member, a user of that social media platform. Under COSA, there's nothing that stops liability from attaching because the minor who was heard happened to be a member of that platform. And it goes the other way, too. If Republican attorneys general say, oh, well, this parent group for trans kids, this support group are talking to each other about gender affirming therapy, And here's this kid who happens to be a user of the platform who got gender affirming care and we think that's a harm. Same deal.

And it's just, it is just going to be used to purge the internet of anything, any politician doesn't want us to see. Like, I'm assuming the Trevor Project suicide hotline would be gone. Right out the window. That's absolutely unbelievable. My exit question is, is this thing going to pass? Not if I have anything to say about it. Unfortunately, I don't have a vote in Congress. So we're working, you know, hard to educate members on the serious constitutional problems.

I am hoping that it won't even get past the Senate floor or even to the Senate floor. I would much rather Congress work on something like a privacy bill that could work that would fix a lot of these problems. But privacy is hard and people don't want to do hard work when they're in Congress because that gets in the way of, well, not doing hard work. Right. And fundraising. So, you know, there's other things they could do. that would have a much better effect that actually might not get struck down by the courts. So hopefully they turn their attention to those things instead of this monstrosity.

Ari, thank you so much for being here and educating us on this. Ari Cohen from Tech Freedom, thanks again. Thank you so much. Danielle Moody. Andy Levy. So who is your fuck-that guy to start us off on this last week of August? It's the entire country, but I am going to focus my attention. and laser rage on the Republican Party in Georgia that is going to use their new anti-democratic

law, the ability to remove a prosecutor and the DA from power for no other reason than the fact that they don't like them to remove Fannie Willis as she has rolled out her RICO case, her indictments for 19 defendants, including the former twice impeached disgrace president of the United States. And on top of that, and it being said by a state senator that the DA is trying to become some, quote, some sort of leftist celebrity that was said by state senator Clint Dixon, and that he is going to, quote, take action against her. That also comes on top of Jim Jordan, who says that, quote, the circumstances surrounding her actions raise serious concerns about whether they are politically motivated and intends to open up an investigation. All of this is fucking

bullshit. Okay. Every single last thing that this fascist party is doing is absolute fucking bullshit. And we have no rule of law. There is no law and order. There is no balance of power. There are no checks and balances. And that is what the Republican Party intends now, 2024 and into the future. So people just need to like wake up. Here's my wake up, fuck that guy to start off the week, is that they're taking what Ron DeSantis has done and they are moving it to Georgia

and they will move it across the country and there will be no recourse. None. Democracy dead. End of story. Fuck them. Fuck those guys. I'm at my wits end and it is Tuesday. Yeah, the only thing I'll add is a thank you to you for bringing up what DeSantis has done in Florida

by removing the two prosecutors as sort of a precursor to this. Because as you said, it's all of a piece and this is their strategy. And fuck those guys. So, Andy, it is evident by our show today that we are feeling great and hopeful. So how are you starting off your week with your fuck that guy? Well, I want to highlight some good stuff that, no, I'm kidding. I'm going to go with, oh, God, I hate that we have to talk about this guy, but we do. Vivek rhymes with fake, a good way to remember it. Vivek Ramoswamy, who in a campaign stop on Friday in Iowa, referred to Congresswoman Ayanna Presley as part of the modern KKK.

This is the first black woman elected to Congress from Massachusetts. There is Wama Swami comparing her to modern grand wizards of the Ku Klux Klan. And he was asked about that on Sunday, on CNN. And he stood by what he said. So, you know, he's not even claiming this time that he was misquoted or taken out of context, which every time he says that it's not true. I just want to point that out. But he's not even claiming that now.

He's just doubling down on it. And this is where we are now. A Republican presidential candidate is accusing a black congresswoman of being a modern-day grand wizard of the KKK. And I just, I don't know what else to say about it other than this is where we are. And I don't like it, Danielle. I don't like that this is where we are. I'm going to, I'm going to stand tough on this and say it's bad.

Vivek Ramoswamy, you are my fuck that guy for today. I want him to go away. And that's all I have to say on that. I want him to go away. He is a dime store fucking version of Donald Trump. You embarrass yourself. You embarrass your community. You are just a fucking embarrassment.

Go away. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of the new abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh,

and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com

slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.