The Daily Beast Podcast - Epstein Sent This Ominous Note Just Before He Died

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles to unpack the surreal world of Jeffrey Epstein—from the salons of Manhattan’s elite to the shadowy corners of MAGA conspiracy. Wolff, who cultivated Epstein as a source and planned to have breakfast with him the morning after his arrest, reveals the financier’s deep ties to figures like Donald Trump, Steve Bannon, and Bill Gates. He shares the eerie final message Epstein sent Wolff before his death—and challenges both the suicide narrative and the murder theory. Wolff debunks the myth of a “client list,” critiques the DOJ’s recent denial of foul play, and exposes the hypocrisy of right-wing figures like Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, who once demanded answers and now run the very agency saying there’s “nothing to see.” He also examines Epstein’s enigmatic financial empire, his influence over powerful men, and the unspoken role Trump’s inner circle may play in concealing the case. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yes, Bannon felt that the one person who had the goods on Donald Trump was Jeffrey Epstein. I'm Joanna Coles, Chief Content Officer of The Daily Beast, and you are listening or watching to The Daily Beast podcast. And we have a remarkable conversation for you today, bouncing off the news that Pam Bondi is not releasing any more Epstein files that Jeffrey Epstein definitely committed suicide with the author Michael Wolfe, who not only spent a lot of time with Donald Trump, but of course spent a lot of time with Jeffrey Epstein.

It's a really remarkable conversation and will leave you with more questions than answers, but there will definitely be surprises in it. I have talked to Michael many times about the dinners that he attended at Jeffrey Epstein's house, and even I was surprised by some of the information that he shares. So sit back or sit up or. or lean in to a conversation which, well, you make your mind up.

Michael, very good to see you. You posted an intriguing Instagram today. We're recording this on Tuesday morning about the Epstein files. And you mentioned that Cash Patel and Don Bongino, the number one and the number two at the FBI, respectively, have been hoist by their own partard. They've been initially part of the conspiracy theorists demanding the release of the Epstein files and the Epstein client list. And now, of course, Pam Bondi at the Department of Justice has said there's nothing to see here.

There is no client list. He definitely killed himself. It wasn't murder. And now the people that were very much at the forefront of the conspiracy have had to accept that it is indeed so. So what are your thoughts? about all this. I really want to unpack Jeffrey Epstein with you. I know you spent a lot of time with him and I really want to understand it. And also, so interesting to me that the DOJ literally released, or Axios got the story, the initial story about the DOJ saying this exactly six years from when

Epstein was arrested at Tieterborough Airport. It was July the 6th, 2019 and I was just checking today when he was arrested and it was exactly six years that they, after, that they released the statement. Just to fill in some some details, he left his apartment in Paris

and got into his Mayback to go to the airport. Nice detail. Most expensive Mercedes, I think. And called me. And called you? Whoa. Yes. Okay. I'm nothing really.

really paying attention, right? To arrange breakfast the next morning. So this was a Saturday to arrange breakfast on Sunday. We never had that breakfast, of course. He arrived at the airport and then was immediately arrested. So how did you find out that he wasn't able to meet you for breakfast? You know, I can't quite remember who who called and how I may have heard it from the news.

It was immediately enormous. But somebody in the circle of people who knew Epstein. And in fact, it may have been Steve Bannon who called me. Steve Bannon, who was a friend of Jeffrey Epstein's too. Yeah, Bannon and Epstein were very close. I knew them both. and Bannon was very concerned about this. Well, can you remind people what the first thing Steve Bannon said to Jeffrey Epstein was when they met?

I was there and it was that moment. And Bannon said to Epstein, and he said this in a good humor, he said during the campaign, that would be the 2016, campaign, you, meaning Jeffrey Epstein, were the only person I was afraid of. Meaning that he had stories about Donald Trump that should they surface? Yes, Bannon felt that the one person who had the goods on Donald Trump was Jeffrey Epstein. So we had Anthony Scaramucci on the podcast on Tuesday morning.

He said this doesn't smell right. Something definitely odd about this. Elon definitely thinks there's something between Trump and Epstein. You should ask Michael Wolfe. So we're asking you. Tell us about the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. But how significant is this statement from the DOJ that there is no client list? Are they passing words?

Well, I think, I mean, Pam Bondi, let's understand the context in which she functions. She functions. she takes instructions. So the idea of an independent attorney general no longer exists. And my understanding is that when the White House team, the inner Trump circle, had had the initial discussion with her about taking this job. And remember, the first choice was Matt Gates. and then he was he was pushed out for all kinds of well he was pushed out for his own shenanigans

with underage girls and drugs yes a scandal interlocking scandals and so she was then she was the second choice and she was and she was rather forthrightly told your job we're not doing this anymore like they used to do it an independent attorney general always at or often at loggerheads White House. Your job is to carry water for the President of the United States. You work for him. So when you say she takes instruction, she takes instruction from the president. Yeah, or the president's people. She, from the White House. So the Attorney General of the United States works as essentially an adjunct to the West Wing, to people in the West Wing. They are her superiors.

And I think it was, you know, she completely, she accepted this. This is she was going to be Donald Trump's lawyer, not the nation's highest ranking law enforcement officer, but Donald Trump's lawyer. Okay. So she's not like Jeff Sessions who got appointed as first Attorney General Joe and Trump one and promptly recused him. from pretty much everything that was going on and turned out to be a great disappointment, Trump. Right. She's not like any, even the others, even Bill Barr, who was certainly carried his share of water,

was still there trying to, trying to at least maintain the pretense of some independence successfully or not. But she doesn't. She doesn't maintain. There virtually is no pretense. And Bill Barr, who has a strange connection to the Epstein, story because his father was the headmaster of Dalton who actually hired Jeffrey Epstein. This is the stuff of which conspiracies are made. Well, that's true.

Just delivered. Right. I mean, you can't make it up. And he wrote a book about sex in space. Very odd for a headmaster to do. He did it after he left Dalton. Well, he was, let us say, a very odd headmaster. And Jeffrey Epstein, without a college degree, was a very odd.

teacher in an expensive private school, in any school. True, true. And he didn't last very long, although he obviously liked underage pupils. Whatever, let's not go down there. But let us talk about how significant is it that Pam Bondi said, there's no quiet list, there's nothing to see here. He didn't, he wasn't murdered. We're putting this to bed. Well, I think there is this, there has been this peculiar tension. of the right wing of a lot of the MAGA base propounding this conspiracy theory about Jeffrey Epstein. And in their mind, you know, this was a bunch of Democrats.

Remember, Bill Clinton was very close to, for a period was very close to Jeffrey Epstein. Larry Summers. There was a whole, a whole range of Democrats. Democrats and pay no attention to the, that there was a whole range of Republicans, too. They were very focused on, on this and not focused. And I really don't know what could be on their going through their heads on the fact that Jeffrey Epstein's closest relationship in life was with Donald Trump, that these were that these were. two guys joined at the hip for a good 15 years. They did everything together.

And this is from from sharing, well, pursuing women, hunting women, sharing at least one girlfriend for at least a year in this kind of, you know, rich guy relationship with each other's planes to to, to, to, you know, to Epstein advising, advising Trump on his taxes, how to cheat on his taxes. They were, I dare say they kind of loved each other. These were, these were, these were, you know, brothers in arms for a long time. And why did they stop being friends? 2004 over a real estate deal, and always fundamental. The reason rich guys fall out with each other is nearly invariably about real estate. And in this case, Epstein had bid on a house in Palm Beach.

He had bid $36 million. He thought the deal was his. He brought his friend Trump over to look at the house and advise him on how to move the swimming pool. Isn't that the first thing you do whenever you look at a piece of real estate? Trump immediately went around his back and bid $40 million. And then there was much squabbling after that. But the relationship immediately broke down. So is the assumption that the reason the deal,

DOJ is not releasing any more information on Jeffrey Epstein is because it's somehow trying to protect Donald Trump? Well, yeah, I mean, I think throughout the Trump years, both the first administration and this and now this second administration, and in between, it has always been an incredibly sensitive topic. So again, that weird juxtaposition of the MAGA guys, going Jeffrey Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein, and Trump, you know, basically kind of cowering. You know, and there was there was a moment which I reported on at the end of the last administration when he became very wary about the arrest of Galane Maxwell and asked whether or not, what could she say, what would she say? and should he pardon her? Well, he certainly said, oh, she's a very nice woman, I wish her well.

As she was, you know, shortly after she was arrested for, you know, an accused of grooming young women. Yes, but behind and behind the scenes, and this is, as I say, I reported this, this was a discussion. I mean, he was, I mean, everybody, everybody around him was kind of like, oh, God, do we want to, you know, we hope, we hope she won't say anything. but we really hope he doesn't pardon her. So do you think the conspiracy theorists stop now? No. This is lies, as I said in the post I did this morning, that this is Kennedy assassination level stuff.

It just feeds on itself. And it feeds on itself for a lot of reasons, not to mention Donald Trump at the center of this, but also because overwhelmingly, the people who have spoken about this, who with great authority, who have reported on this, who have made themselves experts on this,

don't know anything. They certainly never met Jeffrey Epstein. They were not part of his circle, of his life. And conversely, all of the people who do know something, who were in this inner circle, have scrupulously said nothing, first because

not least of all because they might then be implicated in knowing Jeffrey Epstein. So who are you talking about? You know, from Bill Clinton to Larry Summers to, you know, a long list. And there have been a long list of people who have known Jeffrey Epstein. And in fact, you can go so far as to say anybody who is anybody knew Jeffrey Epstein at certainly at a moment in time. And of course, now no one wants to have known Jeffrey Epstein. There's a one point that, and after he was arrested, I think that the New York Times said,

how did they put it? It was kind of like shocking. They said anyone who has shaken hands with Jeffrey Epstein in the last 20 years. is worthy of suspicion. So you spent time with Jeffrey Epstein. Why did you start spending time with him? In 2014, he asked me, and I had had some contact with him before this, but in 2014, he asked if I would be interested in writing a book about him.

And I said, probably not. But Jeffrey is charming. Jeffrey is accessible. Jeffrey is it's kind of like what's not to like. Oh, what's not to like was the fact that at that stage he'd already been in jail for soliciting Andrade. Yes, no, no, of course. But I'm there as a journalist, and that was part of the story. and I considered it.

So I said, and part of his then offer was, you can come into my house at any time. You can be part of this kind of ongoing discussion or salon or whatever you might want to call it that he had virtually every day and filled with people you might want to meet. From Bill Gates to Peter Thiel to, as I say, Larry Summers, to Ehud Baropp, to Steve Bannon, to Joe Ito from MIT, Jess Staley, who is the CEO of Berkeley's Prince Andrew, Leon Black, the founder of Apollo. Noam Chomsky. Yeah, that one was very confusing to me, Noam Chomsky. The Dalai Lama. I mean, the Dalai Lama. Yes, the list goes on.

I mean, the list is extraordinary. Did you actually meet the Dalai Lama at Jeffrey Epstein's? Yeah, indeed. Whoa, I don't think I knew that. I know, I'm laughing. It's just so surprising. Everything is surprising. I mean, that's so one of the answers to why I would go or why anyone would go, it was always extraordinary.

You know, there was a one time I came in and you go through these immense castle doors, and they opened kind of like in a horror film. Michael, just hold on one second. We're just going to go for some ads. And we're back with Michael Wolfe talking about Jeffrey Epstein. And this is his house on the Upper East Side, which is rumored to be the largest private house in Manhattan. Yes, and it's sort of open, like, you know, in those films. like, you know, Igor opening the door to the castle.

And you came in and then there was a large, a large kind of formal reception area. And then the house went up several stairs into the main part of the house. So I came in and he was standing at the top of the stairs. Wait a minute, what, the Dalai Lama or? No, no. Epstein. Jeffrey was standing there with another guy who looked very familiar. I mean, naggingly familiar. You know, had I gone to high school with him? Who? Did you know, was he an actor? No, it's, it's, it's, he wasn't probably an actor because he was pretty ugly.

Character actor. Yes. But, but, but then, um, uh, uh, Jeffrey said, oh, um, oh, Bill, you know Michael. Um, um, And even then it was a kind of a second. But then I got, oh, okay, yes, Bill Gates. So it was always that kind of experience. So you went back. You went once. You went twice. You kept going back.

So he enticed you with the bait of interesting people. And was he filming these people having sex and then blackmailing them? I mean, that's what we're led to believe. You know, I never, so I never, I certainly never saw any evidence of that. And I would say, on the other hand, the contrary point of that is that everybody showed up there certainly willingly and because they adored this guy. I mean, he was, I mean, this was a collection of people who arrived at Jeffries and didn't want to leave and then would stay there for meal after meal and while away the day. and while away the day. And they, you know, they were not there because they were being blackmailed.

They were there very clearly because they wanted to be there out of pure choice. So I understand. What was the role of all these young women that were around Jeffrey Epstein at events like this, where he was having his rolling salons, which sound a little bit like sort of intellectual freak-offs? Perhaps without the baby oil. Well, yeah, although it's not that different except for the quality of the people there who are, I mean, just imagine any office around any conference room where a discussion, especially in Washington, because much of the discussion was always about public policy, about what was going on in, around the world.

This was all a kind of flow of information. And it was incredibly valuable. It could be incredibly valuable information. And what was the Dalai Lama talking about? Well, there was always a steady stream of people coming to try to get money from Epstein. And where did his money come from? That's what that's a, I mean, That's clearly a mystery that remains a mystery, probably a central mystery.

So when people talk about the blackmail and the clients, you know, I think that's a way to avoid the fact that the real mystery is a much more complicated one. Where did this money come from? And, you know, I don't know. And I don't know anyone who knows Jeffrey who actually knows. I have a few things, and I've once asked Epstein directly about this. And he said, I run a reverse Ponzi scheme. In an actual Ponzi scheme, you make it seem like money that does not exist is there, that it exists. I make money that does exist seem like it doesn't exist.

So sort of tax loopholes and strange Cayman Island type shenanigans. Yeah, well, the example he gave is if a very wealthy man gets a divorce and can hide $100 million, then he gets to save $50 million. Right. And then Jeffrey gets half of that. And did you ever think of writing the book? Yes, I've often thought about writing the book. I mean, I didn't, when he was alive, I was always skeptical of, of doing this book just because I felt he would be a pain in the ass to if you went forward with it. And then, by the way, in this conversation with Epstein, in as soon as Trump started to run, and he became this key source for me about Trump.

And obviously, I had begun writing about Trump as of 2016. But afterwards, after he died, I did consider this. And then I think it has become extremely difficult to talk about Epstein in a way that is not entirely focused on his victims, so called victims. I mean, that became that became the convention, the media convention. And I think most media, certainly established media outlets have been very, very, very reluctant to deal with this story. I don't want to deal with this story. It's too, you know, it has a life as too short aspect to it. Everybody feels they're going to get in trouble, say the wrong thing, go in the wrong direction on this story. Well, I can hear listening.

and viewers of this podcast saying, oh my goodness, she let him go unchallenged when you said so-called victims. What do you mean so-called victims? Because we've heard the women's story from the tragic Virginia Joufrey, who also took her own life last month, and who appeared to have a terrible life. And we know that a lot of the women that he ended up soliciting massages from and happy endings from, came from sad backgrounds where this. was an opportunity for them to crawl their way out. There was a sort of pyramid scheme of the girls at the local high school near Mara Lago, passing him on.

Well, we've had, yeah, and I don't, I don't disagree with this. I mean, it's just that the, I mean, all we have is is a set of depositions this. This comes from. This is all obviously, obviously there are many, each of these things creates many more questions. On top of that, everybody is fueled by a financial reward here. I mean, we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars that have this. Epstein basically ended up supporting the South Florida Bar. Clearly, he was doing, you know, Jeffrey Epstein had a part of his life.

but, you know, a fairly discreet or secret part of his life was a life devoted to, to a serious fetishism, abuse, you know, a kind of outside, outside of the context of what many people who were around him knew was going. on. And why do you think that Gellon Maxwell hasn't talked or hasn't talked more about this and has accepted a 20-year prison sentence? I assume because you know that much. You know, why else would why else would you would would you not take a get out of jail ticket? When did you last talk to him? So you were due to meet him for lunch the day after, or breakfast, the day after he was arrested. When did you last speak to him? I believe that I was, I got the last message from him before he died. And what was that message? Michael, we're just going to take a break. We love our advertisers, but we're now back and we're talking about Jeffrey Epstein. And this came, this came through

one of his, one of his lawyers on a Friday. By the evening, he died on Saturday morning. August the 10th. Yes. And he died theoretically by hanging himself. And his message to me, hours before this happened, was, and it was just in response to me asking how he was. And he said, still hanging around. He literally said still hanging around.

And was that, do you think that was a coded message? No, I don't, I don't know. I mean, it was, it was in character. Everything that he said was, was cast in, in amusing, unsurious, ironic. I'm not sure I ever quite heard him say, you know, utter an entirely serious. sentence. So you mean it was sort of heavy with irony? Yes, or it was just Blithe. And remember, just prior to this, about a week before, 10 days before, he had apparently tried to hang himself. And then there was some question of whether this really had happened or he was just trying to go to the infirmary.

So there was, you know, hanging himself was in the part of the moment. So do you believe he did hang himself? Or do you believe that he was killed? I don't believe that it's that that he could have killed himself in the way that that the conclusion is that he would have had to have killed himself, essentially to have broken his own neck. I don't believe that that could have happened. At the same time, I do not believe that something nefarious happened and the half a dozen U.S. attorneys and at least as many FBI agents who would have been close enough to this to know at least some part of what of the nefarious, that they would have had to keep quiet and those people don't keep quiet.

So what does that mean? I don't know. So that means he could not, as described, he could not have killed himself. As the circumstances presented, he could not have been murdered. So how do you think he died? I have no idea. I mean. Well, and we're clearly not going to find out anything.

more from the Department of Justice? Clearly not. And again, remember, and I think it's, I think it is vital to understand this story that there is at the center of this a relationship between two men who are doing the same, just involved in the same thing, who are living their, living their similar lives. They have the same interests, girls, money. not working, you know, living this cyberetic life. And one ends up dead in the darkest prison in America.

And one ends up in the White House. When Elon Musk and Donald Trump had their big blow up, Elon Musk tweeted about Epstein and then later deleted the tweet, saying he'd gone too far. Why do you think he deleted that tweet? I think probably it was trying to recover some semblance of a civil relationship. You know, I think he probably realized he had a lot at risk here. And I think he realized he had touched the, you know,

the Epstein is for Donald Trump a third rail. It's fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. Well, thank you very much for coming on and talking about it. I would refer people to the chapter in your book Too Famous, which has an amazing transcript of the conversation that you witnessed there with Steve Bannon and Jeffrey Epstein and Erhard Barak, who arrives in the middle of it and asks for a boiled egg with caviar,

or possibly an omelet with caviar. He doesn't want the omelet. He wants the caviar. wants the caveat, but there's some egg in there as well. And I remember thinking, well, this is clearly a very heady environment. And there appeared to be no girls at that. I think it was taking place in the morning. Yeah, no, I don't.

I mean, the girls at Epstein's house, and I have haven't, I never went to Epstein's Island or the house in Pompestine. Beach. I mean, I've been to the house in Paris and the house in New York. And there were, the girls were, I mean, I never had any sense that these girls were younger than they should be, although they weren't old. You know, they were 20, say. And they sort of functioned as assistance, partly. kind of, you know, room decorations. They sort of fluttered around the edges. I mean, they certainly weren't in any way central to anything that was going on. And were the guests solely men or were the women of substance there too? There were a couple of women of substance.

Who were they? women of enormous substance. Can you give us a clue? I can't. I mean, I could. But you're saving it. Are you saving it for the book? You know, I do feel that, I mean, of the many,

there are many people associated with Epstein, and it has become difficult for everybody. So I sort of feel, especially with the women involved, that they don't, I mean, if no one knows who they are, it's kind of, why not leave it like that. Well, because presumably somebody knows who they are. Are you saving this for your book? No, I'm just, I mean, in one instance, you know, I had made a promise about this. When you're threading this needle, and I'm in this awkward position of being both a journalist in this environment, and then someone who was shared a lot of confidences, just because that seems to be the, I mean,

This happens to me in many situations because I kind of fade into the woodwork. I'm there taking notes. We're having a recorder on. And people forget about this. So they don't know if I'm their friend or I'm there or I'm the reporter in the midst. Well, I can't believe that anybody wouldn't understand you were the reporter in the midst. You'd be surprised. I mean, there's a whole, you know, seven months in the Trump White House. Yeah, for the fire, for fire and fury.

They didn't seem to register, quite register that. Fascinating. Well, Michael has ever very interesting talking to you and come back and talk to us soon. Any time. And just reminding people that they can follow your daily updates on Instagram on Michael Wolfe, NYC. Let's speak soon. I hope Michael does end up writing his book about Jeffrey Epstein because clearly the salons were fascinating rooms to be in and attracted lots of people.

And I understand why they don't want their names out there now. And perhaps he can do it and not mention everybody. But he has such a nuanced version of who Jeffrey Epstein was that I would love to read more about it. Anyway, if you have been, thank you for listening. Don't forget to join us for our next podcast on Sunday. And feel free to share this podcast with all your friends, with people you don't know, with colleagues.

And don't forget to go to YouTube and leave us comments. And don't forget, be beast. This podcast was produced by Devin Rodgerino, Anna von Erson, and it was edited by Jesse Millwood. Want more great listens? check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber.

Subscribing is the best way to feed the Beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.