The Daily Beast Podcast - Far-Right Anti-Science Conspiracies Are Literally Killing Us

Episode Date: September 19, 2023

Dr. Peter Hotez joins The New Abnormal this week to discuss his new book, “The Deadly Rise of Anti-Science”—and why anti-vaccine conspiracies are so dangerous. Plus! An interview with labor reporter and author Kim Kelly about the United Auto Workers strike. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Kedden, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What an excellent show we have today.

Dr. Peter Hotez talks about his new book, The Deadly Rise of Antiscience, a Scientist's Warning. And then we'll talk to Fight Like Hell author Kim Kelly, who will give us an update on some of the ongoing labor strikes in America. But first, let's have some fun. So, Danielle, it looks like we have a case of meet the new host, same as the old host. at least when it comes to NBC's Meet the Press. Kristen Welker took over from Chuck Todd this past weekend, and she had as her first guest, Donald Trump, and it was pretty much a masterclass in how not to interview Donald Trump.

She did the same thing that so many reporters do when they're interviewing him. They let him spout things. They don't challenge him. NBC News posted a bunch of fact checks online, which is good. I'm glad they did that. but let's be honest, it's not the same thing as fact-checking him in real time. She let him get away with saying some really bizarre stuff, talking about post-birth abortions and how Democrats support these post-birth abortions and just weird, totally off-the-wall stuff,

that there's just no excuse for a responsible journalist to let an interview subject get away with. For everyone hoping that the end of the Chuck Todd maybe meant a return to more of a whole, Hardball journalism type thing. I think those people are not feeling great about it right now. Yeah, it's a fucking disaster. Let's just be honest, right? And I'm not saying that Kristen Welker is a disaster. I just think that media in general, their desire to bring us back to 2016,

kicking and screaming and showcase once and for all that they've absolutely learned nothing, learned not at all how to handle Donald Trump in any which way. And it is. It's a masterclass in stupidity of all of the people that you think that you want to bring in ratings with. Really, it was going to be Donald Trump as your first guest. And it would have been amazing. Had it been somebody who was going to do the fact checking in real time because you know the bullshit that he's going to spew because how many times do you have to listen to the same conversations that Donald Trump clearly has with himself out loud and calls it a rally? You know what is going to come up. So why? everyone always seems dumbstruck, but I believe it's because in those fucking sea suites, they're told, just let him go. It's good for ratings. Let them talk. People love it.

They eat it up. It's fantastic. We'll worry about the truth later. And I hope that they say that when they're in fucking Guantanamo after the Republican finish taking over. And there's no more free speech and there's no more free press. Good fucking job. To be clear, I am totally not opposed to inviting.

Donald Trump to sit down on Meet the Press. What I'm opposed to is letting him run rampant with lies and his little flights of fancy and not stepping in and saying, well, that's not true. Just be prepared to do that. I don't care. You know, if you need a team of producers and fact checkers, sit-net computers, and then feeding it in your ear. I don't care. Do that. Like, that's fine with me. But if you're, like you said, if you're going to invite him on, you have to be ready for it. You have to be ready for the bullshit. And she did not act like she was ready for the bullshit. And I don't think you're wrong when you say that this is the people in the C-suits and whatever. What worries me is sometimes I think people sit there and think to themselves,

well, we don't need to fact-check him. What he's saying is obviously ridiculous and everyone will know that. Because if there's one thing we've learned in the past eight years or so, if not longer than that with Trump, because remember, he was kind of in 2012, he was floating around, threatening to run and saying, you know, ridiculous things, all the birther stuff that was coming out of his mouth. Plenty of people are going to believe him. And you can't leave him unchallenged. I mean, you shouldn't do it with any guest. If they're saying things that are blatantly not true, you should point that out. But particularly with Donald Trump, how have they not learned how dangerous this is? I just, I absolutely do not get it, Daniel. Yeah. And I'm going to say this.

Jesse, we're opening up an invitation to interview Donald Trump any time that he would like to come on the new abnormal. Andy and I are happy to go tit for tat, combo for convoy as he goes off into his deranged thinking about 2016 and World War II. And, you know, we'll get into all of that because there's a lot to unpack here. But just saying, our doors are open, you twice impeached motherfucker, like they're open for you. I guess we should actually talk about some of the things that he. said on Meet the Press. One of the most amazing things he said was basically, as he was saying it,

you could hear the loud thud of all his lawyer's heads hitting their desks. He basically said that, yes, a lot of people around him told him that the 2020 election wasn't rigged or stolen, but that he said he had all the facts and that he's the one who drove all of the election denialism. And that is not what you want. A defamation. to be saying, and that's what Donald Trump is right now. He's a defendant. He doesn't realize that we've talked about it ad nauseum on this podcast about how he's never suffered consequences for anything. I don't think he realizes now that as a defendant, there's a little more sort of care that you should take with your words. And I don't think he's quite acknowledged that yet. I literally don't think he

gives a shit. He is Jack Nicholson on the stand in a few good men. I ordered the code red. What you gonna fucking do about it? That is who he is. He says everything that he's done. He projects all the crimes that he's committed on to other people. And he says exactly what it is that he thinks and feels. And to this day is saying that he's going to take the stand in his own defense. And the only thing that he shows that he is willing to do is continually put his entire foot leg and, you know, and bottom part of his body into his fucking mouth. But the things that he said on Meet the Press with regard to, I listened to myself, yeah, I had some lawyers, but I took in all the information and I made the decision that the election was rigged and stolen. This is shit that Jack Smith

and team already know. And they already have people that have testified to that very fact. And it isn't about whether or not Donald Trump is going to talk himself into prison. It's whether or not we're going to get an actual fucking trial date that is going to work at the pace that we needed to work as we head into the 2024 election cycle where he is the number one pick of the Republican Party. It's so unbelievable. Actually, let me just say this. I am absolutely disgusted that Meet the Press did this. And I know that I shouldn't be, and I know I shouldn't still be on this place of just when we have different people, they will do different things. No one does. I feel like we're living in Groundhog's Day in the worst fucking way over and

and over and over again. And like, no one is pulling the plug. No one is opening the door and saying, Truman, you can leave. And like, we don't have to repeat the same fucking shit over again. But here we are. Yeah, it really is bizarre. I mean, you would think that, again, eight years would be long enough to learn a lesson. But we know it's not.

We've seen it with the way Elon Musk has been treated by the press throughout his career and recently. The New York Times saying his politics are complicated and hard to pin down. What? We see it over and over again, and I think it's just a deference to rich white guys. And like you said, it doesn't matter how many examples we get where it should be obvious that this deference has not been earned. There is something in the mindset of the mainstream media, of the bosses in the mainstream media that just it lends itself to this worldview. Oh, well, we can't come out and say that, you know,

Trump or Elon Musk or whoever is a bad person. and look at all these, well, it's complicated. But you know what it is too, Andy? Just really quick, because I don't just think that it's a deference to rich white men because here's the thing. Joe Biden is a rich white guy. He's all too. There's no deference in the media for taking up for him and the things that he's actually

done that are good. It's a particular type of narcissistic evil rich white guy that the media can't get enough of because there are good rich white guys like a Joe Biden that doesn't get a quarter of the type of attention and coverage that Trump and must get. There has to be something about the boldness and the brashness of their narcissism and their hate. That is what is also incredibly attractive on top of the whiteness and the wealth. Yeah, I mostly agree with that. But I also do think, look, Joe Biden ain't poor. Yeah, he's not rich, rich. Sorry.

Look, we've had in this country the mindset for a long time that if you become super wealthy, you must be doing good things and you must be smart and you must be capable. Again, I'm talking here about like the Uber wealthy, the billionaires and whatnot. There's still a lot of that. And I think that's a lot of what we see with Musk and with Trump and whatever. And it's absolutely frustrating, but it's just, I don't know, it's the way things are doesn't seem like, again, no matter how many examples we have to the contrary, you would think at least in the last eight years and in the recent past, we have learned that, hey, maybe all the tech bros in Silicon Valley aren't the guys to be leading us into the future. And maybe the fact that you have over a billion dollars to

your name doesn't mean that you are, I was going to say a rocket scientist, but I guess that sort of doesn't apply to Musk. I don't know. You might even be good at your business, but that doesn't mean that you have any answers for society. And I do feel like a lot of Americans have learned that lesson. I just don't think that a lot of mainstream media folks have learned that lesson for some reason. No, they haven't. And it's just like, and again, I think that in order to learn from a lesson, you have to recognize that wrong actually took place, that something wrong happened. And by the actions that we are seeing over the last eight years, I believe that media thinks that they nailed it. Like that they nailed 2016, that they did everything right.

And so we're just going to do it again. And they did. For their bottom line, they did do everything right. The country is in fucking shambles for the first time we're registered as a backsliding democracy. And you've given Republicans all of the wherewithal to be able to finish the hit job that Trump started eight years. ago. But their coffers are filled. They move around some pieces on the chessboard, get rid of some old faces, add some new ones, but it's still the same shit. I think that again, in order to learn a lesson, you actually have to admit wrongdoing. And the way that the media is, is essentially just like

Trump. There is no course correction. I listen to myself and I do what the fuck I want. Yeah, I think that's right. And I actually like the way at the top of this, you frame this as a C-suite problem because there are reporters at the New York Times and the Washington Post who are doing good work. I don't want to paint with, you know, a super broad brush that nobody out there is doing the work. There are some. What I'm talking about here, I think what we're both talking about here, is it's an overall sort of worldview and it's corporate is what it is, basically, and it comes from the top. And even though you have some good reporters out there, I mean, there are tech reporters out there who have been saying for years that, hey, slow your role on making all these Silicon Valley Tech Bros. Your new gods. So the point is,

there are reporters out there doing the work and doing good. But it's this overall and this overarching sort of attitude. And it's sort of like both sidesism. But it's a little different than that. It's almost like we used to hear, what was it, what's good for General Motors is good for America? Yes. And it's sort of similar to that. I think the people at the top levels at places like the New York Times and the Washington Post, they sort of look at this and they're like, well, these guys are, you know, this is good for America. All this technology. All this stuff is good for America.

Therefore, these people must be good Americans. And it's almost that like that kind of worldview rather than a both sides thing where it makes them kind of downplay the bad stuff. It's very much a, well, look at what this person achieved. They must be good. Right. I will just say this. It's similarly, in some respect, what was done around Bill Cosby, R. Kelly.

You see these people. You don't want to separate them from their talent, what they offered. But you're like, you're a terrible fucking person. You're a horrible human being. And it's just like when you wrap wealth and whiteness around that horridness, it's like, oh, but look, we're going to get to go discover, you know, that we can grow things on Mars and this, that, and the other thing. So who cares whether or not you're turning on the hate machine here and giving people more fuel

to the fire that is going to cause violence? Because you have so many. other talents. Like, we need to just open our eyes. Take off the rose-colored glasses, friends. Yeah. Usually we segue into new topics with speaking of, but I'm just going to jump right in here and say, it's time to talk about the Jews, Danielle. Oh, my God. So over the weekend, it was Russia Shana, by the way, the Jewish New Year, which is one of the... Shana Tova, to our Jewish listeners. Yes, and to me. And to you. Thank you very much. This is the time of the year. It's the high holidays. So how does Donald Trump decide to wish Jews a happy new year?

He does it by posting on truth social. Just a quick reminder for liberal Jews who voted to destroy America and Israel because you believed false narratives. Let's hope you learn from your mistake and make better choices moving forward. Happy New Year. Did he really end it with a happy new year? He did. He did with an exclamation point.

How lovely. How lovely. And then under that it was a thing that says, wake up sheep. Ooh. And then a whole thing about Trump's great achievements for the Jews while he was in office. Yeah, I'm not really sure where to even start with this. But we could talk about the trope of Jews who want to destroy America.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I don't know. We could talk about how what Trump is basically saying is, if you didn't vote for me, you're a bad Jew. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Where do you want to go with this, Daniel? It's such a toss-up. It's so hard because when you think about offering happy New Year and wishing people well on their high holy holiday, it usually doesn't believe begin with you liberal Jews. There's something about that hallmark opening that doesn't fit the bill. But I think that Donald Trump is one of those like the entirety of the Republican Party. You got one black person. He got a stepson that's Jewish. he can say and do whatever he wants and everyone else is just supposed to fall in line.

I think that it is really hard to not see the anti-Semitism. It's really hard. But apparently, I have 2020 vision unlike the New York Times. So it's easier for me to be able to see what is happening here and the ways that he is turning Jewish people against Jewish people. You don't vote for me. You don't care about this country. you don't support me, then you're an anti-Semite,

which is essentially what Elon Musk said to, you know, ADL and others. So it's just a bag of shit. And honestly, it's the same way I feel about log cabin Republicans. If you are a person from a marginalized group and you support Donald Trump, you are supporting your oppression. That's it. Like there's no way around that. So just feel good about what it is that you're doing.

Feel like the closer that you are to your impressive. the more power you feel like you have, but recognize that they're the ones that are wielding it. So it's just you're a pet. It's disgusting. I don't know what else to say about him. No, it truly is. And look, this is something Trump has done sort of repeatedly over the years

is call Jews who don't vote for him. He accuses them of greatest loyalty. And this is just the kind of thing that he has done over and over again. Personally, I don't even know if he realizes that he's using anti-Semitic tropes. because, you know, he's not the smartest guy in the world. Are you sure? Well, okay. I am honestly not sure with him whether he knows that he's using these tropes as opposed to, let's say,

an Elon Musk who will tweet that the Soros organization appears to want nothing less than the destruction of Western civilization, which he tweeted over the weekend. And he knows damn well what he's doing. I'm just at the point where there's nothing in the world that will get me to believe that Elon Musk is not anti-Semitic on top of being transphobic and racist and everything else you want to throw at him. But the point is, Musk knows what he's doing. Musk is dumb, but he's not stupid, if you know what I mean. Whereas Trump is sort of dumb and stupid in a lot of ways. So I honestly don't know if he realizes that what he's propagating are anti-Semitic tropes. I think it's very possible that

with Trump, it's just like he just wants loyalty to him. That's all he cares about. So he calls people disloyal when they don't vote for him. And I don't know that he even realizes that this is something, this is a charge that has been leveled against Jews throughout history in whatever society decides that, you know, Jews are to blame for their problems. The fact is, again, I'm going to say it again. Like, you're a person from a marginalized group, if that is Jewish faith, if that is the queer community, the black community. a Hispanic community, and you are supporting the Republican Party and supporting Donald Trump, you are supporting your own oppression. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Don't turn around

and be Tim Scott and be like, I don't know what. It don't give me any money. And it's because you're black, sir, not because they think you're gay. Okay? Like just FYI. Anti-science has become a dangerous social force that threatens both our national security and global stature as a nation renowned for its research institutions and universities. So writes Dr. Peter Hotez in his new book, The Deadly Rise of Antiscience. And joining me now is the co-director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development and Dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine, who just happens to be Dr. Peter Hotes, which is fortuitous.

Thanks for being here, Dr. Hotes. Oh, thanks so much for having me. This book was, as we were saying before we started recording, at first I said, I enjoyed this book, and then they said, despite how frightening it was, and we agreed that Injoid would have an asterisk next to it. As long as we're doing definitions first, let's start that way. What do you consider to be anti-science? I actually define it in the book, and I'm pretty happy with the definition, so let me just give it to you as I defined it in the book. So I call it the rejection of mainstream scientific views and methods, or their replacement with unproven or deliberately

misleading theories often for nefarious and political gains. It targets prominent scientists and attempts to discredit them. So in the book, you know, which because I'm a biomedical scientist, I'm an MD PhD laboratory investigator, makes vaccines. My big interest is in vaccines. So the emphasis of the book is how the anti-vaccine movement, which is an example of anti-science, accelerated and grew from phony bologna around autism, which is how I got initially involved, because as I've spoken about in the new I've marbled before, I'm also for adult kids, including Rachel as autism, intellectual disabilities and wrote a previous book called vaccines did not cause Rachel's autism because that was the original, the OG assertion from anti-vaccine groups.

But now the book describes how it has changed and become something even far more scary, which is that it's been adopted by political extremists on the far right and the GOP and become fully embraced. And so, you know, I start out talking about the CPAC conference in 2021 in Dallas, the conference of conservatives. First, they're going to vaccinate you, then they're going to take away your guns and your Bibles. And as ridiculous as that sounds to us, a significant percentage of the country accepted it. Then you had members of the House Freedom Caucus, like Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Green, call people like media medical brown shirts and or go on Steve Bannon's Warroom podcast and start attacking me as a vaccine scientist. And then you have members of the Senate,

like Senator Rand Paul, Senator Ron Johnson, openly push discredited anti-vaccine theories amplified every night on Fox News. And this is documented by two groups, Media Matters, a watchdog group, as well as a research group out of ETH Zurich, which is the place where Albert Einstein got his bachelor's degree, his undergraduate degree. They did a deep analysis in Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingram, Hannity every night during our awful Delta wave after vaccines became freely available, openly worked to two, falsely discredit the effectiveness and safety of vaccine. The consequence of this, and the reason

it's important to talk about is not because this is just another checkbox in the culture wars or something to do with wokeness or anti-wokenness. It is the fact that it killed Americans in unprecedented numbers. And that's why I got involved because I'm a vaccine scientist, developed vaccines to save lives. And now this aggressive anti-vaccine movement, I estimate, They killed 200,000 Americans during the Delta and BA-1-OMA-Cronways after vaccines were widely available because people refused vaccines because they went down this rabbit hole and believed elected members of Congress, the senators, members of the House of Representatives, they believe the rhetoric, the far-right podcasters on Fox News and others, and it killed people. And that's why we have to care.

Yeah, you talk about that in the book. You note that the trajectory of COVID deaths in America is unique. And you explain how this anti-science is behind it. Yeah, that's right. I mean, look, for instance, in my state of Texas, where I work at the Texas Medical Center in Texas Children's Hospital in Baylor, Texas, Texas lost 100,000 people to COVID. Up there with California is the worst affected state, although Texas has 30 million people, California's 40 million people, so arguably the worst affected state, 100,000 deaths, almost half of those deaths in Texas.

And this is true of other southern states, conservative states, red states, whatever you want to call it. Half of those deaths were after vaccines became widely available because people refused to get vaccinated because, you know, they believed their elected leaders and Fox News, as opposed to a country with a similar economy or population to Texas, say Canada or Australia, where after their vaccines became widely available, and this happened around early spring 2021, after vaccines became widely available there in Canada and Australia and elsewhere, the deaths largely halted. And in Texas and other red states, they kept on plowing along because so many people refused to get vaccinated. I mean, just the horrific thought of 40,000 Texans dying, 200,000 Americans.

And then the analysis goes into the fact that this is from Charles Gabba, the health analyst, but is reproduced by the New York Times. In fact, David Leonhard of the New York Times calls it red COVID overwhelmingly those 200,000 deaths in red states. And very importantly, the redder of the county, meaning, you know, Republican voters. the lower the immunization rate and higher the death rate. And let me tell you, this is tough stuff for me to talk about because all of my training as a physician or physician scientist said, you know, you're not really supposed to talk about Republicans and Democrats or liberals or conservatives. We're supposed to be politically neutral.

But what do you do when the numbers are so striking and the deaths were so needless? And it's not that I care about people's conservative views, even extreme conservative views. I mean, that's your right as an American, even if I don't agree with it. But the point is somehow we have to uncouple the anti-vaccine, anti-science stuff because too many people perished and lost their lives. So it's a tough book to, it's a tough book to write, a tough to talk about. And it's hard even for our scientific societies, our academic health centers, our medical schools to even talk about, because we're so committed to that concept of politically neutrality.

But, you know, at the end of the day, I say, look, I haven't found a way to talk about it rather than to talk about it. So I talked about it and wrote about it. It takes us to a very dark place in an American. But we should also point out, you're trying to save these people's lives. You're not sitting here saying, if you're an American and a Republican, you're a bad person. You're sitting here saying, if you're an American and Republican, I am trying desperately to save your life. Yeah, I'm in Texas, for God's I mean, look, I did my MD and PhD in New York 40 years ago, Rockefeller University in Wild Cornell. And at that time, I developed a vaccine for human hookworm infection for my MD PhD thesis, which is 40 years later is now in clinical trials, which is not an unusual time frame for vaccines.

And we developed two low-cost COVID vaccine technologies without a patent, without strings attached to reach 100 million people in low and middle-income countries in India and Indonesia. So, you know, we, you know, provide a proof of concept that you can make vaccines outside the big pharma company. So there's nothing to do with farmer or anything else. It's about saving lives. And 40 years ago, and I got my MD PhD, you know, the motto of Rockefeller University was science for the benefit of humanity.

And I believe that. And I still do. And that's why I'm a vaccine scientist because I think that's the highest expression of science for humanity. 40 years ago, I never would have thought that there'd be this concerted, organized political ecosystem, telling people not to get vaccinated. And now I feel part of saving lives means not only making vaccines, but also countering this. We too often call misconduct.

information or infodemic, which I don't like because that makes it sound like it's sort of random junk that shows up on the internet. It's not that at all. It's organized. It's well financed. And it's deeply entrenched in far right politics and is part of the GOP. And I'm saying, no, you know, this is not who we are as a country. Somehow we have to delink or uncouple it. But it's a tough argument to make. No, absolutely. And in fact, in the book, you say that you don't like the term misinformation, as you just said now, and that you call it. anti-science aggression. Right. And it's not slowing down. I mean, we're seeing it expand in several concerning ways. First of all, it's globalizing. So the same stuff that you're hearing on

Fox News are from Senator Rand Paul or Ron Johnson or members of the House Freedom Caucus. You're seeing that pop up in Canada now with the Freedom Convoice. And, you know, it's being egged on by evening Fox News anchors as I detail in the book. And we're seeing it in Central Europe. It's being adopted in Austria and Germany and includes far-right extremism. groups. And now it's in low and middle-income countries. So I met with Dr. Tedros, the Director General, the World Health Organization at the end of last year to say, this train is now extending to the African continent, to South Asia, and it's going to affect all childhood immunizations. And then the other extension is it's not only affecting the science, but it's affecting the

scientists. There is now a very aggressive movement to target, you know, prominent American biomedical scientists and portray them as public enemies. And I say, well, how did that happen? And is there precedent for that? And, you know, looking to communist Russia in the 1930s and 40s, that's exactly what they did. They portrayed scientists as enemies of the state. And you're seeing now play out on these awful, awful House subcommittee on COVID-19 pandemic hearings and parading prominent scientists in front of C-SPAN cameras to try to humiliate them or, you know,

trying to do gotcha with them. And that is just so destructive. And I never thought I would see that. So it's extending now. What I think is happening is by my calling out prominent elected members from the GOP, which, by the way, includes two or three presidential candidates as well, which we can talk about. Right. You know, and their role in contributing to the untimely death of so many Americans, I think you're seeing revisionist history play out. And that's what I think these House hearings are all about that.

You know, they want to say, well, no, we're going to revise history and say, rather than COVID killing Americans, it must be the COVID vaccines. Or by the way, the COVID scientists made the virus. in the first place, which is absolute nonsense. And this is what's playing out. And what's incredible is those House hearings, even the official Twitter site of those House hearings, the subcommittee, actually said we're selling popcorn. They're not even pretending that it's anything but political theater or for Fox News soundbites. And it's so awful for our country. I mean, you know, this is a country built on the greatness of our research universities and institutions. And it breaks my heart to see this happen. Well, you brought up the Republican presidential candidate. So let's

talk about one of them, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, because he underwent, I guess, whatever the opposite of a great awakening is when it comes to COVID, didn't he? Yeah, I don't know what you call it. He dove into the deepest hole towards the center of the earth that you can imagine. Yeah, and he brought on all these contrarian pseudo intellectuals to be his advisors. And oh, my God, it's terrible, the things that he say. And he goes after me, you know, I talk about it in the book. He went after me on right.

Before the Delta wave, you know, I was on, they quoted me as saying, hey, I'm worried that delta wave is now, which killed a lot of Americans. It's going to hit Florida and they were mocking me and Laura Ingraham and the governor of Florida and saying that Dr. Hottis just can't let the pandemic go and, you know, all this kind of nonsense. And right on cue, that Delta wave really hit Florida hard and so many people died, so much of the daily costs even, you know, wrote about it and how my predictions all unfortunately became true. So it was all predicted and predictable. And this set a pattern of Fox News nighttime anchors going after me on a routine basis. And then Tucker Carlson, the day I was co-nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize with my science

partner, Dr. Patzi, for our low-cost COVID vaccines for the world, I guess Tucker Carlson felt I couldn't enjoy the day too much and he just went on this horrific rant against me that evening. And then the problem is every time these guys do this, it sets off. all of these online attacks and even physical stalkings. And the attacks, the email say, you know, the army of patriots is coming to hunt me down, which I say, you don't need an army of patriots now with just me and Anne and Rachel and the cat at home. And what, one or two patriots should be sufficient. Maybe don't tell them that. You don't need the whole damn army. But then, you know, I get mad because they say, look, you know, I know what a real patriot is. My dad, idiotas, you know,

fought in the Pacific Theater and World War II. You know, we saw action in Saipan and Okinawa and the Philippines. I said, that's what a patriot is, not this crap. And if anything, the scientists are the patriots. You know, the scientists gave us the Manhattan Project and Silicon Valley and cures for disease. And so we're the patriots, not these chuckleheads. So are you saying you didn't get into your chosen field because you wanted to be compared to Joseph Mangala?

Yeah, I know, exactly. And then there's all the Nazi, they love their Nazi images. I know. comparisons. And I actually wanted to talk about a little bit in the book. I actually wound up writing. I got so interested in it, I wrote a whole separate article called on anti-science and anti-Semitism. Right. Because there are these very curious links and there's a long history that goes back to Einstein and Freud calling that Jewish science and even back to the Great Plague and blaming the Jews. All that's happening again with COVID-19 also. And you see a play out on Twitter. I mean, when the trolls or the bots go after me, there's every third one is, you know, some. I'm anti-Semitic remark or comment because I know I'm Jewish and that kind of stuff. Yeah, look, I mean, anyone who follows you on Twitter sees at least some of the vitriol that you've

gotten, but I have to imagine it's not even close to all of it. I mean, you get emails, you get full-on death threats. And as you said, a lot of it is just full-on anti-Semitic. And it's not just you. It's Anthony Fauci. It's a whole bunch of other doctors and scientists. Well, it's, again, it's portraying certainly the health care professionals, but in the book, I focus on the biomedical scientists, this idea of portraying us as public enemies. I mean, this is what Stalin did, right? He sentenced the Mendelian geneticist Vavlov to the Gulag to promote the Lamarckian theories of Lysenko. And even though those theories resulted in failed wheat crops in Russia and Ukraine that killed two million peasants, you know, that was more important to discredit the intelligency,

discredit the scientist than it was to save lives. And that's what's happening again on a different scale, of course, but still very worrisome. And how we begin walking this back, you know, is also part of the book. Well, so towards the end of the book, you write that currently little prevents this anti-science juggernaut from expanding and that it will only get worse. But you also say that it's not too late to stem the tide of anti-science. So what needs to be done? Because honestly, it sometimes feels kind of hopeless. I know you talk about a sort of a southern poverty law center, but for science. Yeah, I think just two things. One is, first of all, to ensure the scientists are protected because I've got a great medical college and

children's hospital and they're all in supporting me. So I feel very grateful for that. I also have colleagues. I mean, I do this regular Zoom call with people you know, Mike Oster home at University of Minnesota and Eric Topal from Scripps and Peggy Hamburg, former FDA commissioner and Bruce Skelon, Rockefeller Foundation and Ruth Berkelman and Penn Heaton and others. So they give me a lot of backing and support and other groups as well. And now I have the Houston Police Department in front of my house when I needed or the Harris County Sheriff's at the Texas Medical Center Police. The FBI's involved when they're sending swastikas to me from out of state. So I have been able to cobble together a strong network of support. But the average scientist doesn't have that. And the problem is,

you know, as MLK said, you know, it's sometimes not just the words of the enemies, it's silence of the friends and you don't get the backing of the scientific societies that you need or the academic health centers, you know, they, you know, basically imply it's your fault in the first place because you shouldn't be on Twitter or social media. I mean, they, the communications departments of these medical schools and universities are sort of old school and don't really understand the importance of scientists speaking out. And so, or they say, well, you're free to do it, but it's your own risk and don't get the institution in trouble, which, you know, so that's not really helpful either. So we've got to change that culture, which I think that's doable. But, you know, if you look at how we're

going to defeat anti-science, we don't really have good mechanisms. I mean, you even, and look at, look at what the surgeon general's been going through of Vec Murphy. You know, he's, he doesn't want to directly say it as I'm saying it, that it's, you know, specific members of the House Freedom Caucus and senators and Fox News. So he'll kind of skirt around the edges talking about switching up computer algorithms and social media. And now they're going after him for that. So the health sector doesn't really know what to do. This is really a political solution. And I've spoken to people in the Biden administration to say we need to get Homeland Security into this and Commerce Department and Justice Department, which is saying, I don't know what the answer is, but there are people who work on countering other dangerous societal forces, such as global

terrorism or nuclear proliferation or cyber attacks who have some experience in this. Let's bring them into this, of least conversation, get some ideas of what's even possible. Unfortunately, it's just not going anywhere. I mean, ultimately, we need the bad actors and the GOP to behave and to recognize the contribution of scientists to the success of the country. And right now, unfortunately, the Fox News soundbites seem to trump all, sometimes literally trump all. Yeah. Right. Well, whatever it takes, I hope we do it soon. I think it's going to get worse as we head towards the 2024. I mean, it already seems to be. It's ramping up. Yeah. Yeah. It's a I don't know whether, you know, I'm not a political sign.

Although I talked to political scientists in the book, and they help me to understand that people like probably people you've interviewed Ruth Ben Gatt from NYU, who's extraordinary, or I talked to Molly Jong fast. Not familiar with her. Right. And, you know, I read the writings of Ann Applebaum, who's amazing. And although I've never met her. And actually, who helped me to understand it the best for the writings of Hannah Arendt,

you know, she nailed it in terms of how they, you know, subvert, you know, what attack the intelligentsia in order that that's a number one tactic for authoritarian regimes and that's what this is all about the book is the deadly rise of anti-science it's out september 19th dr peter hotes thank you so much for joining us you are a mensch among menses and you you truly are an american hero and i hope that things get better for you and for all scientists who are out there desperately trying to save lives thank you so much dr hotes well thank you and you've been an incredible voice and have given me a great voice and I can't tell you how grateful I am for that. Believe me, it's my pleasure. Thanks so much, Dr. Hottos. Thank you. Folks, I am very excited to welcome to the new abnormal. Kim Kelly, who is an amazing freelance

journalist. She is the author of Fight Like Hell, the untold history of American labor. If you're not following her on social media at Grim Kim, you absolutely are missing out. But when it comes to all things labor, all things worker. Kim, you are the person that I come to. And we are at a moment in history where we have the writers and actors strike that has been going on for weeks. We now have the United Auto Workers who are on as of this recording day three of their strike. Kim, Give us the temperature of our society right now as it pertains to workers flexing for their rights. It may be mid-September, but hot labor summer is not over. It's such an exciting moment.

Like you mentioned, we have all these massive strikes going on. My Union and the Writers Guild, we've been out for, I think, I think it's four months now. Yeah. It's going strong, still bullying the people that need to be. bullied. Shout out to Bill Maher and Drew Byermore. Yep. There is so much excitement. That's what's characterizing this moment, just excitement and enthusiasm and so much public interest around these strikes. Of course, I only got involved in the layer movement maybe seven, eight years ago, but I can't remember a time when I saw so much media coverage of these strikes, of union leaders like the UAW

Sean Fane, who, what a speaker, what a guy. He was up there literally dropping scripture to talk about how evil these corporate auto industry bosses are. That's a new thing. Not for the movement, but for this generation, for people that are following along right now, it definitely feels like we're in this very invigorated moment where young people are getting involved. You know, social media is ablaze with UAW content,

with strike content, with people bullying the heck out of scabs. It's just a beautiful thing to see in a really incredible moment to be a labor journalist with the privilege of documents. I want to talk about recent comments because I was just like outdone by the Australian CEO Tim Gurner who I believe it was a week ago found himself in a space where he was needing to apologize for things that he absolutely believed which was that we need a shift in the jobs

market and that people need to feel pain that was his word pain workers need to feel pain workers need to feel pain and remember who's in charge. And we need unemployment at 40, 50 percent. So employees know who they're working for. That is what CEO Tim Gerner said in an interview that then he needed to walk back and apologize for what we know that these billionaire CEOs are saying in their boardrooms, are saying to their shareholders are saying behind closed doors, he just had the audacity to say the truth out loud.

What did you make of his comments and the fallout that came after? This fucking guy. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. You know, he was the avocado toast guy, right? Oh, yes, that said that if millennials stopped buying avocado toast,

then they would be able to afford homes. Right. So already this man is established. He doesn't understand anything about reality or about empathy or about the economy or about much of anything it seems besides talking out of his ass from behind, I'm sure, well-guarded doors in that fancy room he was in.

But like you said, he's not an anomaly, right? Like, we know that's how those people, in this case, you know, the corporate titans, the leaders of the new Gilded Age, the tech tycoons and corporate bosses secure in their sea suites. Like, we know that's what they actually think of us, of the workers of the working class.

This is not anything new, you know, going back to the Gilded Age and even before the dawn of the Industrial Revolution when we're in the feudal era. The people at the top have always profited and leached off the labors of the people forced to be on the bottom and in the middle. And we're at this moment where more and more people, more and more workers are expressing their unwillingness to accept that long-running status quo,

to accept that type of treatment. And these people that have somehow skidded to the top on our backs, they don't like that. That freaks them out real good. And they're, I'm sure, talking amongst themselves at what can be done? How can we manipulate the economy? How can we pull the strings that are within our grasp to punish them for thinking that they might actually be worth something?

Like, it's people like this fucking guy. I'm sure they see themselves as kings and barons ruling over the unwashed masses. and they would have loved to have been born in a moment where that could be quite literally true. But unfortunately for them, that is not the case. And something that they really do seem to forget until, like this guy who came out with the rest of apology quickly remembered, is that there are a lot more of us than there are of them. And we don't really like being spoken about in that manner. And they would do well to remember that.

Because throughout history, workers have had a pretty good track record of dealing with the type of people that think of us in that way. You know, I think about his words. And I think about everything that you said is exactly what I have had in my mind, which is that these billionaire white CEOs were born in the wrong era in time. That they really wanted to be kings.

They want fiefdoms. They want, you know, bent knee and necks at their will. And that people should be grateful, as Tim Garner had said, should be grateful to even have a job. So who cares if they're abused? Who cares if they don't have a living wage? Who cares if you need multiple jobs in order to be able to put a roof over your head? Who cares? Like you should be grateful and thankful because you are what? Replacable. And so for you, Kim, when you hear these things and we recognize and there are so many stories that are being, you know,

run about the younger generations, the Gen Zs, who are basically saying, yeah, I saw how my parents had to work. I saw extreme loss. I'm a child of recession. I'm a child of the bubble bursting. I'm a child of our home went into foreclosure and all of these things. And I don't want to work like this for people who don't care about me, who steal from my pension if you still have one. What do you make of how this shift that was ushered in really greatly through COVID in terms of what power workers have with this younger generation that has also seen and lived through a lot and is saying, no, we're not the ones? You love to see it, right? I think it's an incredibly encouraging and necessary development. And it's going to pay off.

You know, you can't put lightning back in a bottle. You can't turn around and try and convince these younger folks like, oh, no, it's cool. We'll fix everything. It'll be cool now. Just please go back to work. Please don't talk to your coworkers. Don't give your boss any lip. That's not going to happen.

And honestly, throughout history, it's always been the young people, even in different areas, even in different industries under different circumstances. I mean, the first factory strike in U.S. history came in 1824 and was led by young women. and girls in Rhode Island who were protesting having their 12-hour work days extended to 14 and they walked out and they threw

rocks at their boss's house and they got that order ascended. Some of them were young as 15. I mean even some of the most famous labor leaders and worker organizers we think of in American history, whether it's the farm workers union like with Cesar Chavez and Maria Marino and Dolores Werta, they're in their

20s. Like the young generation has always been at the forefront of pushing for change, of pushing for something better, of looking at what their parents had and were forced to endure and thinking, no, we're not the ones. Generation upon generation is built on that. And now we just have so much more access to information and so much more connectivity and are able to learn from all of the struggles and lessons that we can pull from those younger generations now turned older that put that work in before we got here. it just seems like such a culmination of, honestly, centuries of struggle was what we're seeing right now. You know, and do you think, like, you're part of the writers' union, and it's been four months,

and you alluded to, and I just want to make listeners aware of, that Jew Barry Moore had decided that she was going to bring her show, her daytime talk show, back on air amid the writer's strike. And after being railed against, I mean, like railed on social media, she came out recently and said she's going to honor the strike and she's not going to bring her show back. Some hail it as a victory. Others are like, this is cancel culture, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But after four months and, you know, reports coming out of like a Warner Brothers losing, I don't know, I think it was like $200 million or something like that. since this strike has gone on. And what people are asking for is literally a quarter of what it is that they have

already lost. Do you think that there is going to be a deal that is struck? Or do these studios and CEOs, because they are so wealthy, because their power is so vast, can they wait it out and do what it is that they said when they said the quiet part out loud, they want people to lose their homes? They want people to become homeless. Yeah, they sure said that out in public where everyone could see it. Things like that, unforced errors like that, have really led to just the sense of militancy

and stubbornness and dedication among the workers who are on strike. Not only is your boss mistreating you, underpaying you, trying to devalue you, when they spin your face like that, you're going to show up in the picket line the next day, even more determined to fight. And as much capital and money and powers, the studio bosses do have, They know as well as everyone else does or is realizing that they don't really have anything without the workers creating their products. This is a thing. You can have as much money in the world as you want, but none of those people have ever done an honest day's work.

They can't write a movie. They can't do any of the work that below the line workers who are also struggling or dealing with. Hollywood and all of its glitz and glamour and money doesn't exist without the people putting in the actual labor. and we're going to win. It's going to take a good while. Hopefully not much longer, but who's to say? It's going to take a while, but we have to win. This is the thing.

It's not only about wages. It's not only about working conditions, though it is, of course, about those things. So much of this fight is about this threat of AI, about people's likenesses being used without their consent or knowledge, about the way that technology has shaped the industry and how it's going to continue to shape the way workers are treated.

like whatever happens with this strike is going to impact so many other industries because it's going to set a precedent. It's going to set a precedent of either do the humans win or do the robots win? It sounds like a very sci-fi, almost silly premise, but you've all seen the movies and nobody wants to live through the movies where the robots win. No! No, we don't. We don't.

We've all seen that like that is not a press. That's a slippery slope. And as, you know, maybe facetious as that specific example might be. Like, it's the thing, the way that automation hollowed out industries across the American Midwest earlier on, the way that the gig economy is hollowing out so many other professions, this threat of AI is threatening to hollow out screenwriting and journalism and art and so many other types of labor and art and creation. like this is a line in the sand.

And when the writers and our siblings and sag after, when they strike that's going to set out a blueprint for the way that Hollywood and the rest of the industries were a part of, just kind of act going forward. Like we have to set, this is going to be a precedent setting strike. We have to make sure the precedent is on our side. 100%. 100 because I think that this is the moment.

You've named ones before, and your book is about, you know, this untold story. Unions used to be strong in this country. It is what got us, what brought us, those inside of unions and outside of unions, into conditions that human beings should be working in. Was because of these fights that have happened, the unwillingness of CEOs to want to give an inch. As we're talking, it's like one of the. heads of the auto workers was trying to justify her salary being like, I think it was maybe over 200 times higher than like the lowest paid factory worker and saying, well, my pay is based on performance.

And I'm like, whose performance? That's what that was like. Whose performance are you talking about? Hey, if we need to automate anything, automate them. I don't know what they do, but it's certainly not making cars or writing movie scripts or delivering food or doing anything useful. The only time I hear about CEOs is when they're in the media for doing something awful to the workers who make them all their money. So it stands to reason maybe we don't need them at all. Things might go a lot smoother without them.

They don't really like that sort of idea. They don't like being challenged. Honestly, I think it says something about this moment, too, that this was like, was ABC News, like something like that, like a very mainstream, you know, whatever your mom watches on the TV type show. And this woman was asked by a reporter about how do you justify making this much money. I don't think that would have happened a couple years ago, five years ago, definitely not 10 years ago. When these people are having their feet held to the fire by media sources that they would have assumed would be friendly to them, that is significant. because if the people who are at that level are coming out, if not actively the workers, but are acknowledging the inequalities and the unfairness and really just the rank,

just ugliness of these disparities, I think that's a message that's going to reach a lot of people. It's hard to argue with anybody, no matter what their background is, what their political persuasion is, like, do you think it's fair that one person makes several hundred times as much as a person with a much harder job that doesn't have benefits that has to have a second job. Like, how does that seem fear?

How do you justify that? And the answer is that you can't, which is why they really, really hate that we're talking about it so much. And I believe that a lot of people actually do understand what is happening right now, do understand this kind of crescendo moment

that we are in. What would you tell the person that is kind of fenced sitting right now about their power in this moment? I've seen it said, quite a bit lately and I think it is not at all hyperbolic to say that this is this is class war right this is what class war looks like the working class versus the capitalist class or the owner class or the billionaire class pick your poison pick your enemy they're all in the same yacht

and we're all crowded into steerage like it is I think it's an existential moment right because there is so much attention there's so much activity there's so many big strikes getting a lot of attention that is well deserved and smaller labor actions that deserve so much more attention. And labor reporters running around trying to do our best. I do with a shout out labor notes and the real news network for really being out there being on the ground covering the UAW strike. They're doing amazing work. We need a million more of them and maybe a couple more of me. But for a person that is as interested in what's having that's feeling kind of inspired, like, oh man, how do I get in on this? Like I've gotten Instagram messages for,

from people. How can I get involved? Like, my job is like this. Like, it's complicated. I'm not sure what to do. And it's like, show your support. If there's a pick a line in your area, get your ass out on the picket line or drop out food or offer, like there's, there's a lot of different ways people can participate depending on their ability level and, you know, their comfort level and their resources they have. There's always something you could do to get involved. Even if it's just boosting a tweet or boosting something on social media, if that's all you have the resources do. That counts. That's part of it. You're part of this movement. And if you are able to get more involved or to donate to strike funds or to talk to your coworkers about what's happening and gauge

their mood and see, hey, you know, they're standing up against their boss. Our boss isn't great either. It's kind of interesting what they're saying. You know, I think that this is a moment where you can find your place in the labor struggle and start organizing whatever way is available to you and find like-minded people and just start building. up these strong working class communities and calling out the bullshit when you see it. When you hear about these CEOs, they're saying, oh, the unions are going to bankrupt us. Oh, we can't afford this. Oh, it costs too much money.

Like, well, let me see your bank account. We'll see where too much money is sitting because I feel like you're not making $16 an hour. So if any adjustments need to be made, we can start looking at your compensation first, I think this is a radicalizing moment. And I really hope that organizers and unions and labor activists and grassroots activists, just everybody who cares about the working class and as part of the working class, is seeing this for what it is, for the opportunity that it is, and is launching into high gear. Because these kind of opportunities only come every couple of generations as we've seen. And we cannot afford to screw this all. A hundred percent.

Kim Kelly, you are amazing and fantastic. And folks, you should cop her book, fight like a lot. tell the untold history of American labor and follow her on all social platforms, get at her on Patreon and in all the good, good places. I hope that you come back to the new abnormal soon. Always, always a pleasure. And I'm always out here keeping an eye on things. I appreciate you. Thank you. Andy Levy. Danielle Moody.

How are you beginning this good, fantastic, wonderful, just kidding. We're in America. Who's your fuck-that-guy to start this week off? My fuck-that-guy is a group of people. It is one person and then that person's defenders. And I'm talking about Russell Brand here. Eeks. Over the weekend, I guess on Sunday, some big reports hit out of England, long, exhaustive investigative pieces that basically exposed Russell Brand for what he's done throughout the years. And this includes rape.

This includes the grooming of a 16-year-old girl. This includes sexual assault. It was really ugly and one of those things that is incredibly hard to read. So obviously, he gets a fuck that guy. But then there's this little cottage industry of people who have already come out defending him. If you said round up the usual suspects, you would know exactly who I meant. It's Elon Musk. It's Jordan Peterson.

It's Tucker Carlson. It is Alex Jones. Jones, Roger Stone. My God. It's one of the Red Scare girls. It's just a murderer's row of misogynous. Oh, my God, yes. Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

It's a murderers row of misogynist. And the most amazing thing is, so Brand knew these stories were coming out, and he sort of got ahead of it by posting a video beforehand, basically saying that they were coming for him. It's always they. They were coming for him. And that this was because he is, you know, I don't know if it's, It's anti-vax or anti-Aid to Ukraine.

Whatever it is, they always have a reason why it's they. And this has been what all of his sort of defenders have jumped on, basically saying this is a, you know, this is in their minds. The charges against him, all these reports are a deep state plot to take him down because I guess he's such a threat to society is the argument here, which, okay, whatever. I mean, he makes little videos. But it is absolutely unreal. Multiple women came forward.

And then I believe more are starting to come forward since this report has come out. So basically the line here is all these women are lying. Some of these women filed police reports a long time ago. But apparently all of that, this is a long running deep state plot, Danielle, that goes back decades where people filed police reports to lay the groundwork for these investigative pieces that have just come out. It's just unreal the way these people have conditioned. themselves to any time that there are horrific charges against someone that they like, they immediately jump to that person's defense and claim it's just a plot against them and that

they're next. And it's absolutely outrageous, but it's now become, it's the coin of the realm. It's exactly, it's how they make their money. It's all part of the grift is to pretend that these dark, huge forces are allied against them coming after them. And it's gotten to the point where they sort of have no choice but to defend someone who has been credibly accused by multiple women of rape. It's mind-blowing that this is now the norm and that this is where we are, that these people, mostly men, but some women, will come out as soon as the charges are revealed and instantly defend these people

and go straight to conspiracy theorizing and saying that it's just a plot. against them. And so, yes, Russell Brand is my ultimate fuck that guy for today for what he actually did to multiple women. But his defenders and his enablers also get a hell and hearty fuck that guy from me. It's just so gross. And I got to tell you that if those are the cast of characters that are coming out for your defense, you're an asshole. And you're guilty. You know what I'm saying? And you're guilty. You know, thanks, but no thanks. If I ever find myself in a situation, where that bunch is coming up and being like, oh, Danielle couldn't possibly have done it.

I fucking did it. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, leave it at that for that reason. That's a great one, Andy. Great fuck that guy. God. So, all right, Danielle, bring it home. Who's your fuck that guy?

An oldie but a goody, which is Mike Pence, you know, of hang Mike Pence's fame. Mike Pence loves to trot out his Christianity. in the same way that, you know, sports teams trot out their mascot. And he consistently talks about the fact that, quote, I'm a Bible believing Christian. And I have a particular view as to these matters and I'll get into what these matters are. And that's his excuse for everything. And what I know and what everybody knows is that white evangelical Christians cherry pick

what parts of the Bible can rationalize and justify their discriminatory. and hatred. You have those materialistic Christians that want to justify their greed because God said we should, you know, have plenty. You have the Mike Pence Bible believers who say that gay should be stoned to death. So Mike Pence is faced by a woman. She's a professor at Grandview University in Iowa who was in tears and questioning Mike Pence at a town hall that was put on by News Nation. And why was the woman in tears because she was asking for Mike Pence to support trans kids. And this is what she said. Quote, what is your policy plan to protect the transgender community specifically black and brown trans women from historically high levels of violence? Melissa McAllister asked as she's fighting back

tears. And this is when Mike Pence turned around and said, well, I am a Bible believing Christian, which means that I hate queer people. That's what he should just say. In my Bible, queer people are to be hated and to be marginalized and to be oppressed. Just say it. Because I'm so tired of the fucking excuses that Mike Pence and that entire religion use when that is not what any religious scholar, what any person would tell you. They use the same Bible. that justified my ancestors being enslaved. Because God told them that they were deserving to be able to conquer other human beings and enslave them.

That's their Bible. So like, you know, bravo to this woman to bringing the question directly to Mike Pence. But like, what response were you expecting? Were you expecting him to turn around, break down, and say, like, yes, I'm gonna fight for trans people like I fight for every other American in this country? That's not who the fuck these people.

people are. So just believe them. Believe them. Believe Mike Pence when he says that maybe he's thinking about a woman vice president, but he'll never dine alone with her because he promised his wife because apparently their relationship in marriage is so fucking fragile that he can't share French fry in the same room with a woman that he ain't married to. It's just preposterous. It's disgusting. It's hypocrisy. It's gross because these are the same people that welcome Lauren and Bo Burt and her groping ass with like open arms. For that reason, Mike Pence and actually every single Republican today, because I'm just in a mood, is my fuck that guy.

The worst part of this is he was asked a question about protecting the transgender community from violence. And beyond saying that he was deeply grieved to hear about those tragic circumstances, instead of just saying, yeah, regardless of how I feel about trans people, no one deserves to have violence perpetrated against him, he couldn't even do that. He had to go into a whole anti-trans rant when it wasn't even the point of her question. And it's so absolutely disgusting and fuck that guy. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of The New Abnormal.

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