The Daily Beast Podcast - GOP’s Anti-Vaxx Disinfo ‘Is What Authoritarian Regimes Do’ w/ Dr Peter Hotez & James Carville

Episode Date: August 3, 2021

Dr. Peter Hotez has been battling vaccine disinformation for years. But he was still shocked to see United States senators like Ron Johnson peddling anti-vaxxer agitprop. “Historically, this is what the authoritarian regimes do,” Hotez tells Molly Jong-Fast on the latest episode of The New Abnormal. The anti-vaccine anti science aggression has extended to the individual scientists,” he adds. “They did this in China [where scientists who tried to raise the alarm about COVID were brutally repressed] … and this is what's going on right now by elected members of the United States Congress. And we've got to do something about it.” Plus: NBC’s Jon Allen talks about how the realtors’ lobby is pushing to kill the eviction moratorium. And James Carville practically salivates at the thought of Val Demmings running against “slippery little prick” Marco Rubio.  If you haven't heard, every single week The New Abnormal does a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast’s membership program. where Sometimes we interview Senators like Cory Booker or the folks who explain our world in media like Jim Acosta or Soledad O’Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner and sometimes it's just discussing the fuckery. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a Beast Inside member where you’ll support The Beast’s fearless journalism. Plus! You’ll also get full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member head to newabnormal.thedailybeast.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Jong-Fast and welcome to The Daily Beast, The New Abnormal. I'm a left-wing pundit and an editor at large at The Daily Beast. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. Our world has been turned up day down. On the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and figure out how to get ourselves out of it. And I'm producer Jesse Kennan. I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails.

Today we have a super interesting show. We'll talk to Dr. Peter Hotes about the Delta variant and the need for a third shot. Then we'll have NBC News political reporter John Allen to check in with what's been going on in Congress and the January 6th commission. But first, we have veteran Democratic strategist and fan favorite James Carville. Welcome back to the new abnormal James Carval. Well, glad to be here. I love the show. I listen to it.

No, I'm always excited when you invite me on the show, Wally. Thanks. You're a fan favorite, which is true. So I'm curious to know what you think of what's going on right now. Like, even though it's sort of sleepy in a way, you have the Senate. You know, the Senate is working on the weekend in August. Yeah. Look, this has got to be galling Trump.

Remember every week was Infrastructure Week, and he knows Infrastructure Day. I mean, yes, it is. and there's a lot of good stuff in there, and I think they're going to go for more, and there's a good chance they're going to get that, too. But look, when something good happens, then this is something good. I'm all for it.

It's great. And you're right, they're working on the weekend. Mark Warner, he has like a spring of this step. I mean, these guys have been there so long. A lot of them are very able people, and this is just something that they can do and it actually produces some kind of results. I think a lot of the sentences are kind of excited about that.

This weekend, we learned, like, too big, yet more Trumpy dysfunction coming out. Right? This weekend we learned, first, that he was going to do the Insurrection Act, because why not? And second, that he really did plan a coup. Well, you can understand why. If you look at all of the legal jeopardy he is in now, he was a desperate man. He wasn't going gently into any, you know, short good night.

I mean, you can see that the walls are closing in on him like crazy. And the guy is one thing, he's like a shock. He's a survivalist, all right? I mean, he just, and he knew once he lost the protection of being president and being able to name the Attorney General that he was done. I mean, it was life of death to him. He wasn't like, you know, Bush 41 or Jimmy Carter and go back and be kind of, you know, respected post-presidency and have a library.

That's not in the cause for him. And he's just shaking everybody. down. He's got a pitiful people. Send money to him. And he just keeps it. It's really remarkable, but he would try anything to stay in office because you would do anything if you thought you were going to the penitentiary. So let's just talk about this for a second. Imagine a Democratic president saying, leave the rest to me. And the Republicans in Congress. He had composed people. And I think what we're going to find out, which is January 6th commissioned, I think is going to find out, is there were a lot of people in the Capitol building that aided and abetted this insurrection.

And one of the first things they teach in law school is the lookout guy is just as guilty as the trigger guy, all right? A getaway driver is the same thing. And understand, this is going to be an extension of already 500-something felonies. And they're going to find out that somebody's congressional aides, I think somebody's congressman, all right? people like that were actively supporting and assisting this sedition or insurrection or whatever it is. Just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and allies in Congress. Imagine like Obama, right? You could never imagine a Democrat saying that because a Democrat would never say that. I don't think anybody would have thought it, right? Right. I don't know. I'm serious. I've never, in all my life, in politics, and I don't know, I've worked in 22 different.

countries. I don't know what I'm trying to. I'm sure there is somewhere that something like, you know, happens around the world, but it's pretty infrequent. I don't think like, I don't think anybody's ever thought of this before him to just say I'm not, I'm a challenge the entire election, based on nothing. One of my favorite moments in these notes was that Trump said, you guys may not be following the internet the way I do. But you know what's interesting about it is it's disturbing, it's strange. There was a whole world, and there still is a really scary world of Trump supporters who will go along with anything he said. Oh, yeah. I think, though, and I don't discount it's a large part of the country, but it's shrinking. I think he's losing his grip a little bit. Not that he doesn't

still have a heavy grip, and everybody was saying, well, look what happened in Texas. And that special Democrats were the difference maker in that seat. Biden only lost that. congressional district by very few, like two points, three points or something like that. And the Democrats came out and voted against the guy that Trump endorsed. That's how, that's how they won. I guarantee that Trump's candidate carried the Republican vote in that district. And that's a special way that Texas does special elections where they have, they call it jungle primary, I guess. Yeah, we do all of our elections that way. Yeah, the top two candidates run off, even if they're both Republicans as they were in Texas.

Right. And Trump's candidate didn't win. And that is one. And we're starting to see, we saw that, we've seen that in other places, too, where Trump is starting to endorse. Now, critics will say that was a very low turnout raise. Yeah. What you would normally think in a low turnout race that the Trump people would be more

agitated and activated than normal people. And again, the woman at Trump endorsed, I think, carried the Republican votes by more than just a little bit. The reason she lost is the Democrats went, because Trump brings out voters on the other side, obviously. In the midterms, we're going to have a bunch of chances for Trump to really fuck up Republican candidates. Yeah, and the primary

is where you're hoping that he really does. I mean, Ohio is, you know, golden, North Carolina, golden. You know, I urge, I hope he gets involved in a lot of them and, you know, gives Mitch McConnell more nausea than he normally has. And I'm

sure he will. One thing Trump knows, If he stopped swimming, he's a shark. He drowns. He's got to keep going. He's got to keep the money coming in. And so this weekend or around Thursday, they met at Bedminster, Trump's quote-unquote cabinet remet. And Mark Meadows, is Mark Meadows the dumbest fan in politics? He's an unbelievably weak man. If you read John Boehner's book, he was sobbing uncontrollably, begging for forgiveness in his office. I think he's not very bright, but I think he's pathetic.

And he's got real, he's going to have real questions to ask about his role in all of this. And what did he know? Oh, yeah. And they're going to call his ass up there. They're going to subpoena him. I mean, they're going to try to fight it in court, but they're not going to win. And we're going to watch him, you know, cry again. But he is a very weak man.

He is a very weak link in this. I think it was him. It was Mick Mulvaney. One of, you know, claims their daughter found a dinosaur that proved the earth was 5,000 years old. I kid you not. I get him and Mick Mulvaney mixed up. I don't know which one is stupid. Who are you the most excited to see the January 6 Commission subpoena?

Jim Jordan. Yeah. It was amazing on Fox News when he was like, and I talked to Trump on the day of January 6th. Yeah, and Brent Barrett was going, and he kept going, and you could see he didn't want to say it because you'd have to lie. And that guy, that molestation scandal at Ohio State, they got like 60, of course he knew. Of course he knew. But by the way, I can't stop without just saying, I'm working on peace.

And of everything I have ever done in my entire life, the thing I'm single most proud of is I went after that purve Ken Starr with a, you know, a sledgehammer. Can we talk about Ken Starr? Oh, that's my favorite topic in the world. in the whole world. A prissy, self-righteous pervert. How ironic is it that Ken Storr ends up being just what he was chasing Bill Clinton for being? Well, there's no issue with consent in the Clinton allegations.

There's every issue of consent with Ms. Hirschman, all right? And what about the Jeffrey Epstein? What about the bail of stuff? How do you like to be? And he was told in the Pepper Hamilton report, which they'll never let's see the light of the day, he was easy on rape, okay? This is not some frat guys like getting drunk and, you know, filling up some co-ed. They were raping them in a bathroom and didn't do anything.

It's just unbelievable. Now, here's a question I spend a lot of time thinking about, which is, why is it that Republicans seem to manage to do things that they accuse Democrat of? And yet Democrats are unable to message this. We couldn't lie like they do. I mean, you wouldn't stand for it, okay? It just wouldn't. I think that most Republicans, they like to be lied to. They demand it, right?

They want it. They don't care. They spend this narrative, and I don't know. I think they want it. They like it that way. It's the only thing I can say is he just says it and don't care. Just like Antifa was leading. the January 6th insurrection. That's why Mo Brooks had to wear body armor. You know, come on.

You just run out. It just gets exhausting. What they have figured out is you just come up with any answer, doesn't matter what it is, and 40% of the country is going to believe that. Right, because they're so partisan and they're so stuck. So what happens now with the Ken Star stuff? Do you think there's any accountability for Ken Starr? No. No. But you know why? The Times in the Post have not reported on this. I'm going to report on what the Times and the Post said all the great things they said about Ken Starr. You see, once you end the club, they don't know what to do with you. They can't throw you out. There's this great Sally Quinn piece from 1998 about how Ken Starr was part of the Washington establishment. You know, and it quote everybody. So they're covering up

because Starr is a gigantic embarrassment for the Times in the Post. A gigantic embarrassment. But research is being done to be sure that they get proper credit for it. Let's follow that for an idea. The idea of this sort of villain who is too entrenched in the Washington establishment to ever be called out, right? He's so entrenched. It'd Ben Bradley, who was a good guy. Don't get me wrong.

I do Ben, well, I liked him. But he's... Star, let the post off the hook in a libel case against a, it was like mobile oil was involved in it or something. And they lost in addition court and star on the pellic court overturned it. And so Ben Braddock said, Ken Stark and do no wrong by the Washington Post who saved their ass. All of this is going to come out, I promise you. That's why they don't cover it. And it's interesting if you think of the other people in the Trump administration who sort of were able to walk that star line, right? They were so ensconced in the Washington establishment that they weren't held responsible.

And, you know, like, Trump has not been held responsible, but at least there's this sort of feeling that Trump is a bad guy. Whereas certain people... I can't tell you his name, but his initials of Brad Cavanaugh. That was actually... Right, exactly. I mean, Brett Kavanaugh has been pretty much completely laundered. Right. Because he knows people.

I mean, he goes to the poem. I mean, it's, you know, I was, I know that well. And once you're in, I don't know if you ever get expelled. Look at Star. That picture of him with the hat and the elevator, I mean, good God, you wouldn't let your children within 20 miles of this guy. I mean, he's got. You've worked with Democratic candidates for a long time. How does Joe Biden take the win here?

Like, he's done amazing things with vaccines. He's probably going to be the first U.S. U.S. president to do infrastructure in a long time. How does Biden take the win here and not squander these wins? Well, first of all, the virus, which is not any, not his fault at all, is sort of taking some little bit of starch out of the thing. I think what Biden has done and what he's doing, and I think he'll continue to do it is he just doesn't be, he's not anybody but Joe Biden. Right. Which is, that's what you get. You're not getting great oratory and not getting the most analytical mind that ever live.

But what you are getting is decency, experience, compassion, you know, all of the things that you like. I mean, he's, and he does, again, he does not try to be that, but she is not. So far, that's great. And he does not, he doesn't even know what, he, he doesn't know what woke is. You couldn't explain it to him. What? What are you saying now? Wait a minute. Oh, come on. You kidding me? Do people like that? Well, you know, sir, it's just, you know. I mean, which is good, in my way of thinking, it's great. And he doesn't, he speaks simple, plain English, you know, and even when he rambles, it doesn't bother you that much. I think that they're not scared enough about is they say they can work their way around these voter suppression laws. I don't think they're right about that.

If the Biden administration wanted to pass a voter suppression law, they could pass a slim down John Lewis Voting Rights Act if they made it very slip. Well, I think they're going to get something. I really do. And why do I say that? It's like Joe Manchin or something said to him and no, but a lot of people that really know think that they're going to end up with something. What else can the Biden administration do to survive the midterms? You know, let's look and see what happens, but so far, a very important race, we'll know a lot. Virginia is going to tell us a lot about the midterms. Okay, if we lose that, then we're in for a rough go, all right? If we win by more than a little bit, that'll be, and so far, you know, some of the signs have not been bad. You know, we did better in that New Mexico special.

The turnout in the Virginia primary was almost what it was in 2017, which, you know, know, that's a high point of democratic engagement. So, I don't know. But, you know, right now, if I had one predictor, it would be the Virginia governor's race. And we've got to win by more than just a t-90 bit. I think we will. That guy has turned out to be an almost comically bad candidate. American prejudice, I'm part of it.

I'm paid by him to help him raise money. we got a woman interviewed him, and it came out like she was like a really pro-life activist, and said, why don't you mention, you know, defunded Planned Parenthood or abortion? He said, well, look, you understand the Republicans agree with being a Democrat. Don't, but I can't say anything until the election is over because the independence might break. And he gets this, like, you know, almost Clinton's strategic response to the whole thing. course it blew up in his face and he can't get any, they're not going to let it go because he just got, he got caught. That's pretty great. Yeah, it was great. Are you seeing any Senate races that get you

excited? Because this is a feeling interesting. Florida. Florida. Florida. You mean Val Damings? Yes. I'm going to raise money for Val. I'm going to do everything. And Rubio is a slippery little prick. All right? He really is. I think we have our title. I think we have our title. I'm going to do everything. I'm going to do. I'm going to do everything. I'm going to do. I'm a I think she's going to get on that motorcycle, because I hope she does, and tours that state. We get 67% what allow felons the right to vote in Florida. 64% are on a $15 minimum wage. I might have them reversed. But, border, we can win there.

I am high on Florida. I am tired of the people being depressed about Florida. And DeSantis is a giant fool. It's the most COVID hotspot in maybe the world right now. So that is my A number one part, Florida. But look, we've got to hold Georgia, North Carolina's a real opportunity. You know, we've got a hold in New Hampshire. You know, Ohio, let's see how this primary goes.

If they get the wrong person and Tim Ryan, it'd be a pretty good candidate. A damn good candidate. Who's your dream Republican winner for that Ohio primary? Probably J.D. Vance. He's so freaking annoying. I mean, it's just one of these people that they get something, they get some notoriety, and then he's going to go up and do the next thing. And he's so convolut.

But there's somebody, I think there's a female running, that's, you know, that's really, that got Mandel. I mean, they're all nuts. They're all nuts. We're going to get a nut. Okay, that I'm confident. It's hard not to. We're not going to get a John Casey or Mike Dwein to run against.

I think we're going to get some crackpot. From your mouth to God's ear. Hey folks, if you haven't heard every single week we do a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast membership program. Sometimes we interview senators like Corey Booker or the folks who explain what's happening behind the scenes in media like Jim Acosta or Soladadad O'Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner.

And sometimes we just have friends around to analyze what's happening in the news. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a Beast Inside member where you'll support the Beast fearless journalism, as well as getting full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member, head to New Abnormal.com. That's new abnormal. That's the dailybeast.com. Dr. Peter Hotes is a vaccine scientist combating anti-science and the author of Vaccines didn't cause Rachel's autism. We have so much to talk about. Unfortunately, I mean, that was the whole idea, right? We weren't supposed to have anything to talk about, at least domestically, right?

Because I was hoping things would quiet on this summer, and we would have fully vaccinated the American people, and we'd be moving on to other things. And unfortunately, it doesn't look like that's going to be the case. So I think the first thing we need to talk about is just how badly the media covered the breakthrough infections. That did not go well. It is confusing, and this is partly a philosophical difference

in how, as scientists and, and public health officials, we communicated as well. And I, you know, we've been talking, Molly, for a while. And one of the themes of our discussions is I say, you know, one of the problems has been, you know, there seems to be this feeling out there that we have to dumb it down for the American people, that we have to keep it super simple and talk to the American people like they're in the fourth grade or sixth grade. And, and I've said all along, no, that really doesn't work for this. And, and that in my experience, people are willing to tolerate a level of of complexity. If their kids' lives depend on it, their lives depend on it, their loved ones' lives

depend on it. And I think part of the problem has been the Department of Health and Human Services agencies still cling to this antiquated notion of trying to make it, keep it really simple and unify, first of all, unify a single message for the country, which doesn't work, and to keep it really simple. And unfortunately, there's a lot. There's some issues and complexities around these viruses and variants and how they act. One of the things I want to talk to you about because it got my ire up is about a month ago, Pfizer disclosed that they were working on a booster that was to target the Delta variant. It turns out that was actually the smartest thing that anyone could do.

They saw what happened in Israel and they got on it right away. Now we're going to have a delta variant booster on a couple weeks. The Biden administration was really mad at them. And again, you have to explain why. part of it is Pfizer's fault and part of it is we could have responded better on the American side. I mean, you know, I've been saying, and we've been talking about a third immunization, will be coming along at some point, even before Delta. And the reason is because we're doing such a terrible job vaccinating the rest of the world. Africa is totally unvaccinated in Latin America, barely and Southeast Asia barely.

And so. And also the South. We'll get to the South in a minute, but we've not done anything to keep this. virus in check globally and variants will emerge. And by giving a third immunization, what that's going to do is really jack up our virus-neutralizing antibodies even higher and as well as some other arms of the immune system. And that will build in more resilience against the variance, especially some of the escape variants. And by the way, that's not universally accepted. There are some groups who think that may be less true than we might think. But overall, I think that's the reason behind it. I think what confused the number of us was when Pfizer put out that press release saying we have to do it now

because of the Delta variant, that surprised me because I didn't see, there was no evidence presented for that. I was in a funny place and I just said it like it was. I said, yes, I do think we will need a third immunization. So far, I don't see the data that justified doing it for Delta slowly now. Wait, stop. You don't see the data for justifying it for death? We didn't at the time of the press release. Right. Now, Pfizer has put out data showing that there is a big bump in virus-neutralizing antibodies against Delta when you give the third immunization, and we are seeing some serious breakthrough cases among certain populations, especially older individuals, and potentially immunocompromised those on immunosuppressive therapy. And, you know, I don't know what data, the U.S. government had access to what they, what I thought they were going to say the day after Pfizer sent out, that press release was saying, look, rather than saying, no, we're keeping things as is, which again is talking to the American people like they're in the fourth grade because they can't

handle complexity. What they should have said is right now we're not going to make a change, but we're looking at two populations in particular, older Americans and those at immunosuppressive therapy, and people would have gotten that. And that's so, you know, my form of damage control was to modulate or modify what what the federal government was saying, look, I think we may need to do a third immunization for these populations. And also, you have to balance that, too, with the whole global vaccine equity argument, too, and explain how this may not necessarily affect global equity as some are claiming.

And then again, so there's the deficiencies in communication from the federal government. And by the way, it's always been this way. I mean, this is why I have a side career in science communication. It's damage control from our public health agencies. And this transcends administration. This goes back 20 years. I think the other is the fact that some of the, you know, I understand the wingnut press is going to be all over this, but not much I could do about that. But even some of the mainstream press had made some bad mistakes. Not so much the reporting. The journalists have done a good job. It's the editors and the headlines, they stick up there, really caused a lot of confusion. So I even said this over the weekend on, I think it was CNN with

Boris Sanchez. The Washington Post order a very good article about what was going on in Provincetown. I think Carolyn Johnson, someone I've been talking to all year, wrote the article, she's great. She's a terrific journalist. But then, you know, the editor slaps a title on saying that, you know, that makes it sound like the vaccines don't work. And you have to be really careful. And so to make the point, I said, we've got to stop with these titles that read more like drunk texts than actual titles. I think that got some people's attention. And I did that deliberately because this is not only the Washington Post that's done this a few times, all of the good papers have done this. And I think it's really important that the editors are really thoughtful. Okay, I understand there's pressure to

sell papers or whatever that monetary unit is these days. But you have to be really careful what the impact is going to be because there's a lot of anti-vaccine aggression out there that wants to make the case that vaccines don't work. So anytime they sense a weakness, they're going to pounce on it. And that's what they did with that Washington Post article. Are you surprised at how much anti-vax sentiment there is in this country? Because I'm like a little bit, I mean, I guess I saw it coming, but they see, I mean, the Alex Berenstons of this culture seem even nuttier than I thought they'd be. No, I knew. I knew there was a lot of aggression out there. And, and I mean, not only from the non-governance governmental organizations, but also, you know, what the Center for Contemporary Digital Hague calls the disinformation does. And there's a few others out there I would add to that list. But, you know, you saw more and more of this building right-wing aggression against not just vaccines, but also against science. And I've been sounding not alarm since 2015. And so I'm not too surprised, but it is, I think that the really scary part for me is, you know, you have elected members of U.S. U.S. U.N.

United States Congress, not only the House to represent, but even in the Senate. Senate? Let's talk about Ron Johnson today. Just putting out wingnut anti-vaccine stuff. And the other piece, and I have an article that just came out late last week and plus biology, which is an important journal in our field for scientists saying the, and now the anti-vaccine anti-science aggression has extended to the actual scientists. I mean, individual targeting of prominent U.S. scientists. And me included. And, you know, I make the case that we've seen this before historically. This is what the authoritarian regimes do. And China, they did this in China. They did in China. I mean, the history,

I mean, the whole history of Stalinist Russia, right, in the great purges of the 30s and 40s. In fact, in the article I talk about what I think is a very important essay written in 1941 before the U.S. entered World War II called Science in the Totalitarian State. And, you know, this is what what's going on right now by, you know, members of elected members of the United States Congress. And we've got to do something about this. The Ron Johnson stuff is particularly bizarre. Like, why die on that hill? That's right. Why do you need to show your allegiance to the GOP by trying to delegitimize individual scientists by trying to delegitimize the science? It shows this lack of understanding of American history about how our, how we're, you know, in modern times, our nation is a nation built on science and technology, right? It's built on our great research universities and land grant universities.

And this is what allowed us to defeat fascism in World War II and the Cold War and makes such great progress in HIV-AIDS. It's true science. And so, and this bizarre twist that being a patriot means you have to attack. science and scientists, that's something I never would have imagined. So let's talk another minute about COVID here. It seems like long COVID is really a problem, and we're seeing more and more of this. What is your hot take on the long COVID? Well, I'm concerned about it.

First of all, it's not only older individuals are getting on COVID, a study from JAMA showing 26% of young adults. are getting along COVID. What we don't know is how far that extends down to younger groups. So the numbers are all over the place for the adolescents and the young kids, and we've got to figure this out because now a school's opening. And we've got a huge issue now, and that Delta is accelerating in southern states, in southern states where the governors in some cases are saying, filing executive orders against mask mandates. And I mean, I mean, we should be going in the opposite direction. We should be pushing, we should be pushing both vaccination and mask mandates to give our kids

the best chance possible. And instead we're setting them up to fail. I think that's, that's really awful. And then, you know, there's that preliminary study out of Oxford showing gray matter brain degeneration and, and that was mostly among 40 and 50-year-olds. But they, you know, it's, it's done by an Alzheimer's research group at Oxford University that says, hey, this looks like the cognitive decline, we see in aging the same MRI changes. So, you know, we, if we have to understand, you know, if that goes down to younger age groups, you know, this is going to affect a whole generation of Americans with cognitive impairments. And that will be incredibly devastating. And we have to have these discussions. Are you seeing long COVID and vaccinated people? There's a small study that

came out in the New England Journal looking, and that was with the B-117 variant. It was a small study, and it said 19 percent, but it was of the breakthrough cases and vaccinated individuals had prolonged symptoms, but it was a small study. Right. And also breakthrough candidates tend to have other autoimmune issues, which might lead to long COVID. Possibly, or there might be other underlying facts. So this was a study, I think it was done in Israel, actually, at Tel Aviv University. Israel is sort of ahead of us, though, with the vaccines, right? Like, we're going to see what the third shot looks like from, because Israel's been doing the third shot for a couple weeks now. Their clinician investigators and scientists are all over it, too,

in terms of reporting out the information. So Israel's doing us a huge service right now by putting all that information out there. And I think that was probably the basis by which Pfizer sent out the press release. But again, you know, they didn't back it up with data at the time. Slowly, dad is kind of leaching out, suggesting. It might be a good idea, at least for certain groups. Like, would you tell your parents to get the Vax? If you had an immunocompromised kid, would you tell them to get the third child? Well, I have family members, you know, I have a family member on Humera. And I'd love to get her a third immunization. And even I'm over 16. I feel more comfortable having a third immunization as well. But I'm holding back waiting for the CDC and FDA to weigh in on this and give

us their opinion. I mean, they have access to data, safety data and efficacy data that none of us have. And I think it's really important. They come out with a statement. And they need not, They have to not be so tone-deaf to what the American people are thinking that people want to know. And I think putting out more information would help or at least say this is what they're thinking about. What do you think is the next step for us with COVID now? Well, I think the big concern I have is what's going on in the South. Now schools are opening and we're already, we've already got, you know, kids going into the pediatric ICU and Children's Hospital in New Orleans. We already have seen that high school in Mississippi, which started last week early, has now gone back to virtual because so many kids got COVID.

And so, you know, I'm really worried about how this is going to go with, you know, we're creating this perfect storm of issues where the vaccination rates among adolescents in the southern states is super low. I mean, under 20 percent, at least four or five states. problem number one, problem number two, same with the staff and the teachers. Then you've got the Delta Varian accelerating, and then you have governors, you know, thumping their chest and saying, we're not going to do any mask mandates, and even going so far as to prevent school districts from making decisions about mask mandates. You know, so I say, you know, what makes you think this is going to go well? I mean, so where are you with mandating? I mean, we're seeing these terrifying,

statistics that show all of these unvaccinated health care workers. I mean, what the hell, man? Yeah, no, it's, I mean, this is the destructive nature of the disinformation campaign that we've allowed to go unchecked for so many years. And now we're paying the price for it in a huge way. And not only from the disinformation does and is the Center for Connering Digital Hate says, but this badge of far-right-wing aggression that manifests,

as anti-science, I think this is devastating for whole regions of the country. And it's going to have devastating consequences for the South and some of the Mountain West states. And it's going to show itself in young people being hospitalized. And so many young people with long COVID. And the frustration is you see it coming and not being able to manage it is extremely frustrating for me. Yeah, I think it's kind of grim. Do you agree with the idea of mandating vaccine? I mean, in my mind, I say mandate them everywhere, especially to fly.

I don't know if you saw these statistics this weekend, but it showed that, you know, 15% of people will get vaccinated if they are given $100, but 41% will get vaccinated if they have to be vaccinated to fly. I mean, I was hoping we weren't going to go there. And early on, because the conservative groups were so profoundly against vaccine mandates early on in 2021. I said, look, let's not press this issue. Let's see how far we can get without doing it because it could have a backlash. But I think you heard it in the president's voice last week. You know, he was, he's really worried. I mean, and so, you know, I thought he actually gave quite a good speech last week when he talked about, you know,

he's clearly going to put the full force of the federal government, anything that's in his purview or control. He's going to mandate vaccines for the federal workers. the military, that sort of thing. The problem is that still leaves the majority of Americans out of his reach because historically vaccine policy is set at the state level. So we really depend on state legislatures and governors to do the right thing and they're just not prepared to do the right thing in two major regions of the country. And so that's going to be our soft underbelly for a long time to come. Thank you. Thank you very much for coming on. I'm sad that you will need to come back, but I'm happy because we're friends.

Yeah, absolutely. John Allen is a political reporter for NBC News and the author of Lucky, how Joe Biden barely won the presidency. Welcome back to the new abnormal, John Allen. I'm so excited to be here on the new abnormal again. The renewed abnormal. It's hot de Blasio summer. It's so not. I don't think those words have ever been used in conjunction before. We're putting that picture in the non-existent show notes.

I met him one time, and I was like, you look just like Bill de Blasio only shorter. And what do you say? Oh, that's a day. He thought that was pretty funny. He's just happy or not throwing something at him. Let's talk about someone who matters, okay, as opposed to Bill de Blasio. So it was a weekend. It was a hot summer.

weekend where the Senate actually worked in August. Whoa. Are they okay? It's odd for senators to want to be in Washington in August. The president's working hard to get a transportation and infrastructure deal. There are some Republicans who think it's a good idea and the Democrats are going to do what the president asked them to do. So we get the Senate in session and we get the House leaving town with the eviction moratorium unexended. Yeah, let's talk about that. What happened there? That doesn't seem good. The Democrats didn't have the votes. And so pretty early on the day, on the day on Friday,

they knew they didn't have the votes. And then what my sources told me was there was a sort of behind the scenes fight going on between Pelosi and Maxine Waters. Pelosi wanted to go ahead and just move on without doing it because she knew she didn't have the votes. Maxine Waters wanted them to hold a vote knowing it would fail so that activists would be able to identify the Democrats who were opposed to it, rather than, you know,

if they don't have a vote, nobody puts up their votes, and therefore you can sort of hide behind being opposed to it in the back rooms and not actually go on the floor and say you're opposed to it. And so Waters wanted to get those votes put up on the board so that activists could put pressure on those members over time and know who they are. Who are they? It's a little bit of a mix. You've got some of the Blue Dog Democrats, some of the New Dem Democrats, some of the New Dem Democrats, and both are sort of moderate coalitions.

The New Dems are more sort of coastal tech type moderates. The blue dogs are more southern rural moderates. And then maybe a couple other cats and dogs in terms of members that don't really belong to either group. But the real push behind not doing this extension, according to the sources that I talk to, is from the realtors. Of course. They're a donor group. Is that what this is? Well, yeah, I mean, they're a significant influence group, both.

both in terms of money, but also because they exist in every congressional district in the country. Right. I mean, we're talking about all the homeowners and landowners. I mean, you know, the realtors are a very influential group, both, again, both because the money and because they are, you know, operating in every district. So what happens now? Because you've got Cory Bush sleeping on the steps of Congress. You have AOC saying that these Congress. people are cowards. So Nancy Pelosi writing a very strangely worded letter. Right. What happens now? I mean, the Democrats couldn't get it done and they're all blame casting now. So the liberals are blaming Pelosi and Pelosi is blaming Biden and saying you should do this

by executive order and it's not clear that the Supreme Court would necessarily see that as, or by administrative actually, I guess not clear that Supreme Court would abide by that. And so, you know, they're just looking for the, you know, each of them is looking to not be blamed for it. And the people who walk away unscathed are the moderate Democrats, many of whom sit in competitive seats and would prefer not to be out there voting on either way on this issue. It's not that they feel totally comfortable voting against the moratorium extension, because obviously, even in those centrist districts, there are a lot of progressive Democrats who agree with the policy of extending the moratorium. So a vote on, you know, in either direction is difficult for

They got out what they wanted, which was no vote at all. Right. So this can't just go away for Democrats. It doesn't go away as long as there are people getting thrown out of their houses. Right, exactly. But, you know, traditionally in this country, the people at the lowest end of the economic spectrum, those most vulnerable are the ones who have the least political cloud. Right. And I think that has changed some over the last decade or so since the financial crisis,

but it is still true that their voice is not as powerful as it needs to get to get the legislation that they need. Yeah. I should say, especially right now, I mean, you know, there was a time where the eviction moratorium was not controversial, right? I mean, this is something that got put in place during the Trump administration. So, you know, it's not that there was no consideration for what was going to happen to rent or what was going to happen to people who couldn't afford to pay their mortgages.

It's just that the generosity on that or the patience on that has one been for, certainly for Republicans and maybe for a handful of Democrats. Do you think that we're going to see anything else with this or you think this is over now? I mean, people are going to lose their homes, but do you think there's going to be larger, which is, of course, as a humanitarian issue, a complete fucking disaster, but do you think there is more political fallout from this, too? I think there could be. I mean, obviously, you know, that requires somebody organizing people who have been thrown out of their homes

and then, you know, a year and a half from now voting in congressional. It's unlikely. And then the question is, you know, are they voting for Republicans who were uniformly against this? Or are they voted for Democrats who were split on it? I mean, it's a complicated issue to, like, sort of rally people around. At the same time, I'm not sure that this is totally dead. I think, you know, what I heard this morning was that there are some efforts to find a bipartisan solution. I think what that would entail is some relief for renters, some relief for landlords,

and, you know, some means of finding revenue to prevent that from. adding to the deficit. And when I say means of adding revenue, Washington is getting very creative with trying to find ways to produce revenue without raising taxes. So we have infrastructure. You think that's going to go? The bipartisan infrastructure? I avoid these puns as much as I can, but I would say that the transportation infrastructure is on track. But there are any number of things that could derail it between now and fruition, up to and including if the progressors in the house, think that the moderates in the House aren't going to vote for a sidecar reconciliation bill that has $3.5 trillion in it, they might sink the bipartisan infrastructure bill. There's a lot of this

play to, you know, still to be acted. Right. That makes sense. Do you think then that they'll be able to do the bipartisan infrastructure bill with this ad on reconciliation? I don't know. I really think it's too early to tell like how that plays out. I do think that the $3.5 trillion number is probably going to have to come down for the moderates to vote for it in the Senate in the House. We've heard Cinema say that in the Senate, that $3.5 trillion is probably too much for her. You know, and she's in frequent communication with the moderates in the House.

Yeah, wouldn't want to upset cinema. God forbid. Or disturb her vacation plans. Yeah, let's talk about that. On Friday... If the bill was $5 trillion, she'd say $5 trillion, it was too much in $3.5. Much like, you know, if Biden had come out and said 10 trillion, the rest was what I said we need 15 trillion. Like, a lot of this is political positioning rather than actually looking at what needs to be done and finding the number that needs to be done.

Yeah. So last week we saw, you know, I don't want to talk about Kristen Cinema. She sucks. And she's going to, and we're stuck with her. So like, I'm glad she wears no, you know, no sleeves. Congratulations. She's the Susan Collins of the Democratic Party. That is my hot take about her. But I'm curious to know what you think of the January 6th Commission and that testimony on Thursday. It was obviously riveting and emotional. And I think that Tuesday. It's hard to figure what the Republicans stand for other than Donald Trump if they're not going to stand for protecting themselves, protecting the Capitol building and protecting the Constitution. And what we saw, you know, in Kevin McCarthy's decision not to send any members to this committee and to threaten to punish the two members that.

Republican members that Nancy Pelosi appointed for taking the appointment is that this is really, and you know, we've known this, but it remains a party that is more faithful to Donald Trump than any tenant, you know, than any principle. And what's interesting to me about that is I think it's more true of the elected officials than it is even of the Republican electorate. Yeah, I think that's right, which is so fucking weird. It has to be they're just scared of Donald Trump. Yeah, if Donald Trump comes into your district and says you're the devil, you know, you're vulnerable to a primary challenge. It doesn't mean that every time Donald Trump endorses a candidate, we saw this last week, that that candidate's going to win. But he can come in and make serious trouble for you.

He can get you to the point where you lose a primary or that you're so toxic to a part of the Republican party that you lose a general election to a Democrat. Right. But he can also just do nothing like what happened in Texas. Exactly. do very little and decide that, you know, look, give an endorsement, but not actually, I think his biggest power is a negative power, right? To go in and trash people and make them toxic. Right. His ability to make other people popular is there's not a lot of evidence for that. Right. Look at all these former Trump guys who are, you know, trying to be president in 2024,

who are getting no traction because people still think Trump's going to run. Right. Do you think that Trump could really go in, and just absolutely kill the Republican Party in the midterms? I think it's possible, but I think it's less likely. I mean, usually it's somewhat of a referendum of the party in power, not the party out of power. Right. And when at the same time, Trump does some unusual things, right? There was reporting this weekend about, I think of the New York Times, about his joint committee with the Republican National Committee.

And so they raise money together, and Trump gets 75% of it. And the party gets 25% of it. Right. Which to me says, this man still owns the Republican Party. Right. Yeah. The Republican Party is a subsidiary of his, not the other way around. John, can you tell us what's next for the January 6th commission?

I mean, I think what we're going to see is a slow role of hearings. Right. Before we see anybody else, we'll see the people who are willing to testify without subpoena. Then we'll see the people who are subpoenaed and want to testify and wanted the subpoena so that they feel comfortable with the, you know, breaking of executive privilege or the breaking of the potentially erroneous claims of executive privilege from the Trump administration. former Trump administration. So, like, you know, that'll be the advancement, right? Like, people who want to testify, people who want to testify but need a subpoena for cover to do it. And then eventually we may see some people who have fought subpoenas, you know, get interviewed by this committee.

The longer they drag their feet, the more likely that is to walk right into the midterms. Is there anything else we need to be talking about? I mean, I think the big thing right now is, like, the Republicans talking so much about the mask mandate last week that they kind of drag. round out any other message they might have. And they're basically out there. You can find, you know, very few epidemiologists that would challenge the idea that masks are helpful. You can find very few Republican lawmakers who are epidemiologists. But you know what you can find?

A lot of epidemiologists who say that we should be wearing masks, even sometimes indoors, to protect ourselves and each other from this disease, which, by the way, has killed about 200,000 people since Trump left office. Right? Like, it's still spreading. it's still killing people. And you've got a Republican Party that's basically mocking the whole idea of masks. We saw this last week.

One member, Jeff Duncan from South Carolina, went to the House floor and apologized for missing a vote. He said that he was so disturbed by the mask mandate and the metal detectors that he got frustrated and missed the vote. He basically said the dog ate his homework as he ridiculed the House mask mandate. It is weird to me that you have a party who's like kind of staking its entire message on, Like, let's let the disease take more people. Do you see any world in which Mitch McConnell ends up having a showdown with with Trump over the vaccine? Because right now he's using money from his reelection campaign. I mean, obviously what else was it going to go for since he's been reelected?

He's using it to, you know, do advertisements, pro-vaccine advertisements, talking about how he had polio as a boy. Could you see this setting him up? against the Trumpy part of the Republican Party? I mean, he's definitely against the Trumpy part of the Republican Party, but I also think that he is studiously ignoring Donald Trump as much as he possibly can. Right. I mean, I think that's basically the tack he's chosen.

Right. You know, rather than agree with Trump or respond to Trump and get in the fight with them, he seems to take this attitude that, like, he is the leader of the Republican Party and Donald Trump is somebody, you know, swinging rocks from the outside. Yeah, it would be interesting. But in the case of Trump, the actual truth is that Trump is the leader of the Republican Party and slinging rocks from the outside. What's crazier than QAnon, more outlandish than Pizza Gate,

and scarier than a Mexican getaway with Ted Cruz? The answer is what the American right wing has planned next. Be one of the first to listen to Fever Dreams, new podcasts from the Daily Beast tracking the conspiracy slingers, orange acolytes, and straight-up grifters pushing to retake power. Every Wednesday hosts Swin Subisang and Will Summer Checking in on the movement of the radical right Head to the DailyBeast.com

slash podcasts or your favorite podcast player To catch the first episode and get subscribed. That's Fever Dreams, which you can subscribe to wherever you get your podcasts. Jesse Cannon. Molly Jong Fast, how was your vacation? It was nothing like Denver. That's what the people say.

Nothing like Denver. They call it the Buffalo of the... the West. Oh. They don't. I just admit that. But, you know, lots of good restaurant food. Restaurant cappuccinos, not complaining, but I can if you want me to.

We'll skip that and we'll just go to your fuck that guy. So my fuck that guy today is a woman who, I don't know if you know who she is, but her father was a very... Think it's coming to me. Megan McCain Soon to be unemployed Megan McCain I have never known anyone

Who has as someone who has I always want to say this because I don't want to be an asshole Or I don't want to be a hypocrite I'm okay with being an asshole But I always want to say I Benefited from having a famous mother Not as famous as John McCain obviously

But you know a little bit famous And a famous grandfather I benefited from that in numerous incalculable ways, right? Like, help getting an agent, help getting an editor, you know, all sorts of things that other people who grew up somewhere else who didn't have those kind of advantages didn't get. So I'm very cognizant of the idea that nepotism makes things very unfair.

Last week, Megan McCain, perhaps you've heard of her. Her father was John McCain, said that, yes, she had gotten some advantages, but it was still much harder to, you know, be the daughter of John McCain, which is fucking bullshit. But anyway, that's not why she's today's fuck that guy. She's today's fuck that guy because my friend and a friend of the pods, Kathy Griffin, is having a cancerous lobe of her lung removed right now. And she is very brave and she's probably going to be fine. But as this is happening, Megan McCain is mad at her for not being nice enough to Clay Aiken's, which, by the way, way, Megan McCain, you

supported Rush Limbaugh. You are not a friend to the gays, okay? And I say this as someone who really knows what, you know, your husband works for Fox News. Her husband's publications has said quite a few homophobic things

at its time. Right. You are no friend to the LGBTQ plus community, Megan McCain, so shut the fuck up. And further caveat, another reason why she's today's fuck that guy is that she refused to participate in the Mary Trump interview. As we all know,

Mary Trump is a very good friend to the pod and very thoughtful and smart writer and psychologist. And for that, we say, Megan McCain, good riddins to the view. Congratulations, you guys. To quote one, Donald J. Trump, bye-bye, honey. Jets C. Cannon, who is your fuck-that guy? My fuck that guy is a man we call on this podcast, Russia Ron Johnson. One of the lowest lives we have in the Senate. Because today, he tweeted that since Alex Beretson,

one of the most horrible disinformation spreading people in the land, has thankfully been suspended from Twitter. If we could just get that to be permanent, it would be very nice. And now Rush Aran is pushing Alex Berenzen's substack to get around his Twitter. ban because he has to make sure that the people hear all the vaccine disinformation because, as always, Rush Iran Johnson is doing things to undermine America's success at all times. Literally, if you find something that would make America a better place, he's usually against it. And I really,

really hope the people of Wisconsin turn against him in the future election that he's about to face. Few people have been able to successfully spread disinformation with the same zeal and cunning as Russia Ron Johnson. And for that we say Russia Ron, I would say go fuck yourself in Russian, but I don't know how to say it. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from the Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics and science. will help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you again on the next episode.

Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studied The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.