The Daily Beast Podcast - Governor Kristi Noem Is Sad She Can’t Shop at Target

Episode Date: June 11, 2023

In this bonus episode of The New Abnormal, Mo Ryan, author of ‘Burn It Down: Power, Complicity, and a Call for Change in Hollywood’, talks to co-host Andy Levy about ’Lost’s vindictive showrunners, and Hollywood’s horrific treatment of writers and actors of color behind the scenes, pegged to a recent piece she wrote for Vanity Fair. Plus, Andy and co-host Danielle Moodie respond to a clip of Gov. Kristi Noem complaining that she can’t shop at Target and another clip of Nikki Haley proving she’s a racist bigot, again. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. Hello and welcome to another Sunday bonus episode of the new

abnormal. We thank you so much for being here. Today we have an extra special guest with Vanity Fair contributing editor Mo Ryan, who's going to talk all about her new book, Burn It Down, Power, complicity, and a call for change in Hollywood, and she'll give us lots of dirt and details about your favorite TV shows and all the bad stuff that went on behind the scenes. But first, Let's have some fun. Are you guys ready to listen to some clips? Clips. Yeah.

Clips. That's what I like to hear. Okay. So in this clip, we're going to hear another warrior against woke revealing that they can't say what they are really fighting against because they'll say the quiet part loud. Here we have a town hall one Nikki Hilly did with an empty suit named Jake Tapper on CNN. Ouch. The word woke used to be used by progressives to talk about an awareness of inequities.

and historical inequities. But obviously it means something else to conservatives criticizing it. What does it mean to you? How do you define woke? There's a lot of things. I mean, you want to start with biological boys playing in girls' sports. That's one thing. The fact that we have gender pronoun classes in the military now.

I mean, all of these things that are pushing what a small minority want on the majority of Americans, it's too much. It's too much. Yeah, it's too much to respect people. It's too much to give them dignity. It's too much to call people by the name that they ask you to call them by. It's too much to train people into equity and inclusion. You're absolutely right, you fucking idiot.

Yeah, I just want to say, I don't even like what Jake Tapper said at the beginning of that. He said, you used to be used by progressives. It used to be used by black people. Thank you. Say it. I don't know why he said that. That's such a weird thing to me. I mean, you know, Haley's answer is that's part for the course at this point.

Because anytime you ask a conservative what woke means, they won't define it. They'll just hold up examples of things they don't like and that becomes woke, whether it's a beer or sports or whatever. But Tapper, come on, man. I thought Congresswoman Cory Bush did an amazing job this week on the floor of Congress saying that we all know what this really is. It's racism. Yeah. Like anytime you hear the word woke, replace it with civil rights because that's really what they're saying. Mm-hmm.

to go to a horrible place, as usual. The competition to be the craziest congressperson, there's many people who would have taken the cake in previous congressional classes, but Repetapolino Luna is not quite in shape enough to run against the Boberts and the Marjorie Taylor Greens, but she's given an honest try here. Here she's going to talk about FBI director Chris Ray.

...taking place. So they are essentially acting as a arm of the Biden administration. And so, I mean, all I can say is a lot of people are frustrated, we're frustrated, but we're going to be holding them accountable. And this is potentially going to be a criminal charge. If this guy doesn't pony up, it's very possible that the director of the FBI could end up in jail. I don't know how she defines very possible, but I don't think it's the dictionary definition. I'm willing to bet everything I have, which is at least $90 worth of stuff, that Chris Ray will not be going to jail anytime soon.

Are you sure? Because if you, you know, if you wish it, just like Donald, Trump can declassified documents with his mind as if he's an X-Men. Are you sure they can't make it happen if they all do a fucking seance together? They can't because the Biden crime family will stop. Oh, you're right. Oh, good. Good.

Yes, Hunter's going to come in and save the day, just like Barron's going to be our future leader. And Steve Bannon is just him coming back in time to warn his future self to Barron could be a great leader as the Qadon's think these days. I will say there's a better, I think there's a better chance of Hunter Biden going to jailed in Chris Ray. I would definitely agree with that. Well, the stupid keeps on going. South Dakota Governor Kristy Noem, who is my dark horse candidate for who Trump will put on his ticket as V, is here uttering the world's stupidest talking point, which is one of the reasons I have my money on her being picked because that's basically the qualification. Let's listen. Yeah, I'm like a lot of Americans,

love to shop at Target. I mean, we do, but we just can't anymore. And while the rest of the country is worried about, you know, having fun and going out and shopping and enjoying a store. That store is fundamentally tearing down this country. And we have to have real conversations about how serious we are about protecting our freedom. Sure, absolutely. Target's having a bad month. Just saying. They are. So, Governor, you're there in- It's well-deserved. Target, a display of rainbow paraphernalia is tearing down the country? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we have to have a conversation about freedom. And I thought that that's what happened when you had private companies that weren't government run, right? That they have the freedom to make decisions about who they're

selling to and where they're selling. Am I wrong about that? Did I make that up? Yes. No, you made that up. Okay. The Republicans have never been in favor of the free market. Okay. Yeah. I don't know what put that in your head that the Republicans were the party of the free market because clearly they have never been. So I don't know. Jesse, I kind of don't disagree with you. I think she has a decent chance of being Trump's deep pick. She's doing the right call here, which is like she's just kind of playing it safe, just saying the stupid talking points that make you qualified for it. You got Nikki Haley out there, just bungling policy all day thinking if she gets in front of the camera enough, he'll pick her. Marjorie, really not winning the race these days. And then, you know. And then there's

Christy. Yeah, just, just there. I mean, her hair, it's just, you know. Well, that's the thing. She has to look. Yeah, I was going to say, it's that Trump woman look. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. It is striking. Yep. Well, don't look forward to that, but hell awaits us all, I guess. Okay. So over on the clown car that is called Newsmax, a quote-unquote comedian named Chrissy Mayer had some more great insight into the culture war. Here she is with Newsmax host Eric Bowling. It's pretty ridiculous to just assume that Chick-Palais, I mean, you know, I'm hesitant to make a fried chicken joke, but they sell fried chicken. I don't know how much more inclusive we can get here.

Okay, so here's my maybe weird take on this joke. it's not a good joke, but that's a separate question if the question is, should she have said it? The answer to should she have said it on a news program is no. If you want to make a joke like that in a comedy club, I mean, yeah, you can do it and I think you can get away with it. Again, I don't think it's a very good joke. But there's things you can do with body language and, you know, with facial expressions to make it clear that you know you're making a joke, but it's not. you know, you're not racist or anything like that. It's just a dumb joke. But I think a lot of the problems that these comedians have is they don't understand that there's a difference when you're on a TV show

and they just, they just don't get that. I don't know. I know this is a weird take maybe and maybe it's because I did Red Eye the news comedy show for so long. But that's sort of how I feel about it. Like, make that joke in a comedy club if you want. And again, I think you could probably get away with it. it's mostly harmless. It's just not a very good joke. But don't say that on a news program. It's just stupid. It's dumb.

It's racist. It doesn't belong anywhere in my humble opinion. I mean, I suppose you can do it in a comedy club. And I wish that I could just laugh at Fox and other outlets because they're ridiculous and dumb, except for the fact that tens of millions of people listen to this on a regular basis. So it was, she should be embarrassed, but you know, you can't embarrass people that have no shame. To be fair, this was newsmax. So it's tens of people. Oh, sorry. It's tens of people. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I was more just thinking through the whole thing. Eric Bowling has got to be

upset that Apple's new operating system that comes out later is going to hide explicit pictures that you receive. Last week, Vanity Fair ran an excerpt from my next guest's new book on Hollywood from a chapter about the equal parts heartbreaking and horrifying experiences of people of color and women who worked on the TV show lost. It left many people's jaws dropped, including mine. Well, now that book entitled, Burn It Down, Power, Complicity, and a Call for Change in Hollywood is out. And it is an essential look at the history of this kind of treatment that has been faced by pretty much anyone who's not a white man in Hollywood. Vanity Fair contributing editor Maureen Ryan joins me now. Mo, thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks.

Absolutely. I'm going to start off by saying that there's simply too much in the book to cover in a 25-minute interview, so please excuse me for skipping over a lot of stuff. A lot of my material ended up on the cutting room floor. People are saying, when's the sequel? And I'm like, I actually, I had to cut things out despite how long it is. Yeah. Wow. I want to combine the opening of the book, which deals with people like producer Scott Rudin, things like the existence of the utterly reprehensible treatment of assistance, and the questions of who exactly is allowed the freedom. to be an asshole in Hollywood. I want to combine that with what you talk about later as the toxic myths around creativity. And this is, of course, the ridiculous belief that if you're artistic, you have to be an asshole or that it's okay to be an asshole. The whole idea that artists suffer, you know, artists have an artistic temperament and it's involved suffering and so forth. I mean, we have it from, you know, Loboam onward. It's not new, but I think Hollywood kind of weaponized

it in a very terrifying way for years. Yeah, absolutely. And it's unreal how much straight up awful and borderline, if not full-on, pathological behavior, has been excused and tolerated and almost sort of sought after in Hollywood over the decades. And I'd like to say it was shocking that the vast majority of the people you talk about in these sections are white dudes and that the people pushing back at them are not. But I can't even say that was shocking. Yeah. And just to be clear, for the lost chapter and other chapters, some of my sources were white dudes. You know, I mean, I've been on the phone with people who were, you know, in or near tears many times. because of, you know, what they witnessed, what they saw it being done to colleagues, the toxic dynamics that happened over and over again in their workplaces. And, you know, I'll never forget

one person pulling over to the side of the road, a white guy just trying to talk about his own complicity. And what I often say, or, you know, what should I have done differently? You know, sometimes when you're witnessing an abusive thing, you do not know what to do. And I think that that's very human. You know, obviously these people usually go forward and try to make the industry better. And that's what I tell them. I'm like, you know what? Honestly, I think there's a good chance you would have committed career suicide had you been the one to, you know, scream back at that person on behalf of a colleague in that moment, you know, or defend someone. People do it and I'm glad that they do it. But I think there's a set of hurdles for everyone. You know, you know, you know the industry. You know how hard it is. Unless the studio head is your dad and those people exist too. We have to have, you know, studio children representation in this conversation. For most people, It is rough. It's rough to put yourself out there and just want to tell a story. And, you know, if you put words or a story or anything in the world, someone's going to judge you for it. So, I mean, let's just acknowledge that is a little scary or a lot scary. But some people have even

more hurdles. You know, just the other day, the book's only been out for three days. And on Twitter, a series of Latino writers were talking about just frankly straight up racist things that have been said to them in pitch meetings, including one comment of like, shouldn't the character be an unwed mother because aren't most women from that community out of wedlock mothers? And like, what do you even say in that moment? You're pitching your passion project and you, you know, you've planned it out and you've worked so hard on it. And it just like freezes people in the moment. So look, I don't think that people, you know, get up in the morning, you know, with rubbing their hands together and twirling their moustaches and saying, I'd like to commit verbal or physical violence on people.

But it just happens a lot because what creativity is, it is hard. And what I want to make clear to your listeners is that I hope that people with a lot of baggage continue to make art because that's my thing. You know, explore the baggage. Process all your neuroses through your art. Go for it. I want that. I don't want storytelling on screens that is, you know,

antiseptic and basically the care bears picnic, you know, although like no shade to the care bears. We have to have care bear representation on this podcast, too. Right. We're really covering all the bases here. Absolutely. So, no, but like, it's fine to have baggage. What Hollywood said was we don't want to spend a lot on training, management, and putting limits on people's behavior. So what we'll do is we will reinforce this idea that creativity allows for from the people with power, status, connections, money, or some combination of those things, from those people, whoever they are, they get to do what they want or more or less do what they want. And if something bad happens and things go very, very awry as, you know,

if you've paid any attention to Hollywood News even before Me Too, but certainly after, a lot goes wrong. We will sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. And I do not think that that is, I mean, it leads to terrible situations for human beings, and that's the primary concern. But it also, I think, kind of leads to bad art, you know. Really, it haunts me, many things that people tell me. But one of them is a film school graduate had some experience in L.A. in the industry, did some jobs, and came east to work in New York in the 90s. And she said the two shops that you had as your options, if you wanted to work in movies in New York in the 90s,

were Scott Rudin's shop and the Weinstein Company. And so, you know, imagine you love. of cinema. You'll work so hard to put good stories or interesting or creatively successful stories into the world. And your choice is abuser A or Abuser B. You know, like those are your options. And that strikes to me as horrifying. Yeah, beyond horrifying. So let's talk about Lost, which I will say right off the bat, one of my favorite TV shows of all time. There are some days, I might say it was my favorite TV show of all time. Oh, yeah. I mean, I wrote a song about it back in the day. Absolutely. As I noted at the top, this chapter of the book was excerpted in Vanity Fair a week

or so ago and made a pretty big splash for obvious reasons. It was unbelievable. Not in the sense that you couldn't believe it, but in the saying, holy shit as you're reading it sense. It was just example after example of abusive behavior towards writers of colors, towards actors of color, towards women writers. You say, as you put it in the book, in the full chapter, which also weaves in historical antecedents for this type of behavior, that the people you spoke to who told of their experiences were of all races and genders, but half were people of color and more than half were women. So let's start with the actors and I guess particularly the shabby treatment of Harold Peranoe, who played Michael. You know, when you are a viewer, and I really came up more as a critic.

You know, I was actually a music critic first. And if anything, the music industry is worse. So that's exciting to think about it. Yes. You don't always know. And if you're a professional a critic in some ways maybe you shouldn't know. Like, you just want to look at what's on the screen, but you see these things play out and you're like, well, that's weird. You know, Harold Perano was a key part of the ensemble. He seemed to have a key role in the narrative or in how it was being set up. The premise, if you will, he's this father, stuck on this island. You know, he and his kid, you know, were trying to kind of reestablish and rebuild their relationship. So that's, you know, it's an interesting setup. And Harold Peronow is a wonderful actor.

Why was he gone? He was more or less gone after the end of season two and came back in season four for some episodes. But what I learned was, you know, it just shocked me to my core. And I learned that. And then I spoke to a writer called Monica O'Soubreen. These stories take years. I've known people who worked on Lost for years. And I will also say freely, because your readers might go poking around, some creative partners and I did a commemorative podcast on Lost in 2019. And, you know, I'd heard it was a tough environment. But even post me too, I wasn't sure what that meant. I didn't have specifics. I mean, I'm not trying to defend myself. Sure. I didn't know what I then later found out. And it took people years to trust me, to trust anyone, understandably, because I think really that

lost chapter came out because next year lost's premiere will be 20 years old. So it took that long for people to build up their careers to the point where they felt like they could. be truthful about what happened. And that's, you know, that's a scary fact in and of itself. I haven't looked at every single clip I ever wrote about loss, but I do think that the fact that it had an inclusive cast, that was great. You know, I go to something called the TCA Press Tour, the Television Critic Association, and that's held twice a year or was pre-pandemic. And basically what happens for a lot of it is that the producers and creator of a show would come out on stage, often surrounded by the cast. And what it would often be was, you know, like six white people

in the creative or producer positions, you know, seven cast members and one of them was a person of color, if that. And lost wasn't like that. So yes, it did break with the norms of the time. But it's incredible to me to this day. And I'm going to say something that I didn't put in the books. I thought it, you know, there were so much serious stuff being said by people and so many painful revelations. I didn't want to come off as seeming petty, but just even on a story level, I didn't understand it. I still don't understand the following. This is an island that hopscotched through time, and it was tropical and had a polar bear on it. So you couldn't figure out a way for Harold Peronaut's son to be out of the show, but Harold Perrinos character, Michael,

couldn't stick around. I don't, like, I get the creative problems are hard to solve, but I'm like, This is an island in which quite literally the most wackadoodle things that had been seen on television. Some of the most wacky things that had ever been on television happened. In the very first episodes, a man who had been in a wheelchair began walking around. And they told you why that happened. I just want to jump in and explain to our listeners who don't know loss. The story has always been that Harold Perino, who played Michael, was let go from the show because the actor who played Walt, his son, had a huge growth spurt.

Right. And they couldn't explain that on the show. so they kind of wrote them both off the show. Exactly. And I just, you know, talking to Harold, it was just shattering because, you know, he's such a good actor. And what my career has been full of in the last 10 years especially has been hearing from people that had to depart a job, put it that way, or were fired from a job, or were endured some kind of punitive or vindictive behavior, not because they were bad at what they did, not because they didn't know how to do their job. And not because they themselves were, you know, abusive or unprofessional, but for some extraneous reason. And that's really distressing to me, you know, it's really distressing to me that writers at loss,

writers of color in particular, and also some white writers either were let go or felt the need to leave because the environment was really punishing. And there was, as at many shows, there have just been basically the imprimatur from the television industry was, we'll give you a budget and you'll have to answer to our notes. But in many other matters, you are free to use your power how you want. And we will pretend it's not happening, you know. And so whatever's happening is not happening. So that led to really kind of like a royal prerogative, if you will.

One or two people or maybe three people, maybe the star is also powerful. They would have a massive amount of power and everyone else didn't. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I just want to make it clear that in the book, what we learn is that Harold Perrinow was pretty much let go for reasons that didn't seem to not have to do with race. Everyone's side is presented. You know, I asked the show on the Damien Lindelof and Carlton Cues. They gave their side.

Their explanations revolved around the growth spurt of the young actor who played Harold Peron's son. And all I can do is present various people's explanations. they were allowed to present their explanation. And Harold Perrono was doing a good job on a show that was very grueling. And then he said to me, I feel like I just got fired. I understood why he felt that way. And you know what? The next season, he wasn't on the show.

So, like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, that's, that was a job that he was not doing anymore. And it was a grueling, taxing job. And that's another thing, too, that we have to weave into this. If someone feels overwhelmed by the responsibilities that they're given and unable to meet the moment and meet the challenge of controlling a film set with 500 people working on it or controlling a television production with between pre-production, post-production, and active production, you know, like filming, hundreds more people are involved. That is a very, very big job. And I certainly know that if you put me in that chair tomorrow, I would probably screw up.

So a big theme in my book, too, is not just this was a disaster and it wasn't all that long ago, which was also the case with, Sleepy Hollow, another show that, you know, was more of a cult thing, but very much talks about the dynamics that, you know, were to some degree present in the Lost chapter, not all that long ago. And, you know, it's not okay to treat, whether it's actors, writers, personnel on a, you know, working in, you know, network studios or on set. It's not, it's not okay to treat them as interchangeable, it is not okay to make the working conditions, basically have the following rule in place. If you speak up to anyone powerful, you could end your career tomorrow. That's just not a healthy work environment. I don't care if it's a pizza parlor or if it's a

big tent pole movie. If the reigning philosophy is, there are people who will use and misuse their power in any way and no one can call them to account and you cannot speak up or else you will face serious consequences and possibly threats to your livelihood and your mental health and even your physical health, that is unhealthy. And I'm really tired of living with the fiction that, oh, well, what are you going to do? This is how creative people operate. You know, there's one showrunner at CBS, who I did multiple stories on. The vibe I got from the back channels of people who would talk to me there, well, we couldn't do anything while Les Moonvez, who has been accused, you know, There have been allegations, many allegations reported by Ronan Farrow and others about heinous things that Les Moonbez, the head of CBS, allegedly did.

Oh, well, we couldn't fire anyone like that while Les was still around. What makes my head explode is people present these things as inevitable. No, you could have done something. Everyone involved with power chose not to. Absolutely. Look, there were some truly awful stories from the lost writers and the way they described how the writer's room was run by Lindelof and Q's. One of the reasons this chapter was so heartbreaking to read is that Lindeloff, at least, has always seemed like sort of a menchy guy. I've heard not so nice things about cues outside of your book, but I'd never heard anything particularly bad about Lindeloff.

You contacted both of them to tell you what you were reporting. What were their responses? Well, you know, they differed. I think that the part where they overlapped was them saying that they did not recall the remarks that I said to them. And they did their explanation about Harold. I go into depth about that, and they had an explanation that to them revolved around like creative decisions or, you know, problems with the story, so they had to cut off certain stories. The difference is that I spoke to Damon Lindelof. You know, we spoke a couple of times and Carlton Hughes communicated to me through various representatives. Here's something that I've encountered a lot in my career. People may not remember certain specifics. As I reported in that chapter, my contention is not to,

that they were in the room for every heinous, offensive, or unprofessional thing that was said or done. I do think multiple people told me that as showrunners, as dual people responsible for the show and with the power of the show, many people used the word vindictive. They were the ones that were responsible for that work atmosphere. And, you know, you know how it is, I was lucky enough to speak to some of the sources after it came out. And, you know, what you get nervous about as a journalist is like, did I reflect the part of the situation that I was concerned with with a degree of thoroughness that the sources think is reasonably fair. It's not like, oh, gosh, I have to answer to my editor and we all answer to people. I felt

like I did that, but it was heartening to hear from people and think, yes, this was an accurate reflection of my experiences as pertains to the topics you wanted to bring up in the book. And one person said to me recently, and I won't name who it is, because I, you know, I think more than one person would say this, given the opportunity. If one of them had walked into the writers room and said, we're not going to say things like X, Y, and Z, and we are going to treat each other, if one of them had given the speech, the average kindergarten teacher gives, you know, we are going to not use our words to attack people and make them feel diminished and demeaned. We're not going to bully people anymore. This source said that would have happened in a heartbeat. It would have just kabum.

Because again, they had the power, and that's really the part that I'm trying to explode here. And that's been the consistent thing throughout Hollywood's history, whether it's a mogul like Louis B. Mayor or there's just the people or, you know, the latter day moguls whose behavior now in many cases we are just horrified by. They have the power to hire and fire and make and break people's careers. And look, I understand part of that. If you watch the dailies for a film you're making and it's a $100 million film and that actor isn't working out and their performance is terrible and maybe they're showing up in a let's say less than good physical or mental condition, get them help and maybe, you know, pay out their contract and get a new actor in. Like I understand that sometimes things don't work out. Creative alliances or cooperation or collaborations don't work out. That's okay.

But what we're talking about is the ability to end people's dreams and careers for. reasons that have much more to do with ego and toxicity and bullying. And frankly, I follow the stats on Hollywood, too. And here's a scenario I'll give. I did one chapter called The Myth of the Maritocracy, and I hope it's not overwhelming with numbers. But there's a lot of numbers that back up the assertions that I make. One high profile annual study looks at the top 100 movies, and it's from USC. It comes out every year. And then they did kind of a meta study. And instead of the But 1,600 films that we've talked about in 1,600 years, 21 of them were directed by black women. And overall, women empower positions on those films went from 17% 25 years ago to 24% last year.

Here's the thing. This is what I try to convey to executives sometimes when I'm just having an off-the-record conversation with them. I do think people are trying. But with a goodly number of people trying, the number only nudged up 7% in 25%. five years. So that tells you something. The number of people in writers' room, the percentage on people of color in writers' room, as long as I've covered the industry, it's hovered at around 10%. And what that amounts to is tokenism. You know, well, we have one person who isn't white, you know, and like, and so that tokenism is isolating. It can be really hard. So I follow the

stats, too, and the stats just show you, there are stats that go up sometimes. But overall, the forces working against change in Hollywood are incredibly powerful, but they're really good at spin and hype in PR. So you just don't see how these powerful forces operate. And one of the ways in which they operate is to enforce norms that are not normal. And people just piece out and say, I would rather do anything else because I cannot take this mental state or these constant threats to my well-being in my career. You know, that's a very real thing that I encounter all the time. Yeah. And, you know, we're pretty much out of time.

But, you know, as you point out over and over in the book, this is self-harming because you're talking about what you just mentioned. You're talking about all this potential talent leaving the industry and deciding that nothing is worth this treatment. And they're not wrong about that. They're not. But it's so frustrating because you realize that so many of these people probably had amazing stories to tell and they'll never get that chance. Right. And so Hollywood loses out on these amazing

stories. We lose out as consumers and as watchers. We lose out on seeing these tremendous stories. It's just everybody loses and they for some reason cannot get that through their thick skull. But the good news is that these executives who make these decisions and at the top of all these pyramids are making between 50 and $200 million a year. Yes. Thank God. That's the upside. I want to leave your listeners on a happy note. But no, I'm so glad that I'm really glad that you made that point. And I really do want to stress that very strongly before we have to wrap up. Yes, certain people from certain communities face even more hurdles. But I'm telling you, you're absolutely right. Some of the people

that get eliminated from the industry, whatever walk of life, whatever culture and community they're part of, what we're doing is eliminating the people who have really good intentions about how they're going to treat other human beings and can tell good stories. And if we're sifting them out of the mix, that's a problem. You know, why are we sifting for abusers or potential abusers and then telling potential abusers, go for it. If you've made us a lot of money at the box office, you can now do whatever you want. That is slowly changing, but I will just leave you with this tidbit. My husband works in the banking industry in tech, not like he's not a banker and he works alongside bankers sometimes, but I tell him the stuff about Hollywood that I hear about, and he just

says, that would never fly. You know, banking is very square. His particular corner of it is very square. You know, Hollywood portrays itself as being this enlightened place where collaboration and artistic freedom and, you know, personal autonomy are valued. And I sit there and I tell my husband who's, you know, working in tech at a bank, and he's like, no, no one is allowed to do that where I work. That's like my reality check, and thank goodness for that. Well, sometimes there are authors I could talk to for an hour, and this is one of those times, but unfortunately, I can't. The book is burn it down, power complicity, and a call for change in Hollywood. It's out now, and I suspect it will be required reading in Hollywood and elsewhere. Maureen Ryan, thanks so much for coming on.

Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of The New Abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studied The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to

DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.