The Daily Beast Podcast - Happy Birthday USA. Sorry for What the GOP Is Doing to You

Episode Date: July 5, 2024

Andy Levy and Danielle Moodie, co hosts of The New Abnormal, reflect on the past year in American history—and the craziest figures in American politics. Then, Defector editor David Roth and journalist Jeb Lund, the co-hosts of their own podcast called It’s Christmas Town, join the program for a special Fourth of July quiz show segment. Plus! A conversation with author Suzette Mullen about her new memoir, “The Only Way Through Is Out,” which chronicles her experience coming out as a lesbian late in life. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Empezae. Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Kenned, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully

even make you laugh through the tears. What a great show we have for you, and we hope you had a lovely Fourth of July. Today, journalist Jeb London and David Roth, the hosts of Its Christmas Town podcast, join Andy for a special Fourth of July contest to determine the greatest American. Then author Suzette Mullen is here to talk with us about her recent memoir, The Only Way Through is Out, an intimate retelling of her experiences and the politics of coming out as a lesbian at a later age in life. But first, let's have some fun. So far, in 2024, who's the politician who's made you the most angry?

Oh, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Are we putting Donald Trump aside for this? We probably should. You'll make it more interesting. I'll come right out of the gate. It's very simple for me. It's Justice Alito easily.

But you said politician. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Well, yes. Because if I mean, if we're going to say like politicized puppets. Right. I'm going head first with, you know, it's going to be a hard tie between Alito and Thomas. Yeah.

And actually, you know what? No. I have somebody else. Fucking Justice Roberts. I'm going to go with him. I'm going to go at least Alito and Thomas stand on their fucking bullshit. That motherfucker likes to play like he's a goddamn centrist and gives a fuck about this country. And he's undoing it one stitch at a time.

So no. For me, it's him. I hate him. Yeah, I mean, putting the Supreme Court aside if we're going to go with just like a straight up politician, someone in public office. But man, there's so many to choose from. It's so hard to not say Ted Cruz. And it's not even like I couldn't say, well, because he did this. It's just because he's himself.

And I just have such a visceral reaction to even seeing his face, let alone hearing his voice. But look, it could so easily be DeSantis. it could so easily be a number of people in Texas. It could be Governor Abbott. It could be Ken Paxton. I mean, yeah, that's an almost impossible question to answer, I think. Okay. What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?

Oh, boy. Oh, honestly, I would love to be a horticulturist. Hmm. I would love to, like, work at, like, Brooklyn Botanical Gardens or, Wave Hill, like, it's just so beautiful and peaceful, and I would love to spend my time learning about various plant species, soil, air, you know, all of that. Now I regret not introducing you to the horticulturist at my party the other week. Of course you know a horticulturist. My literal best friend since I was six.

I'm actually surprised he didn't bring up, Jesse, you have got to know many astrologists. Yeah. Dillian. Does he have to know many astrologers. There was one at the party of that party too. Why didn't, why weren't we offered readings? Like, what the fuck? I didn't get a plant and I didn't get a reeling.

All I got to do is celebrate you getting married. Engaged. Engaged, engaged. Yeah, TBD. Oh, it's happening. This is. probably going to sound weird or whatever, but I kind of feel like I would have enjoyed library science. Oh.

Jesse knows a little bit about this. I will not bore everyone with the details, but I just spent, like, a month cataloging all my e-books in a program called Calibur. And it literally took like a month to get everything in shape. It's a couple thousand books. And I went in and made sure all the data was correct and got the right covers attached to them and put in the genres that, you know, that I wanted them in so I could sort everything. And I actually had a lot of fun doing that. And I remember thinking while I was doing it, I was going,

I would have probably had an okay life as a librarian. Like, I think I would have enjoyed that. What profession would you like not to do? I think I'd have to say podcast host. It really is just, it's so stressful. Oh, yeah. The thing about podcast hosting is, it is simultaneously probably the most difficult job in the world and absolutely the most important.

So it's a lot of pressure. Super critical. It is. It's critical. I mean, look, we in America, we have basically a podcast-based economy right now. So a lot depends on us. It's a lot on our shoulders of people like me, people like Danielle, you know. So anyway, what was the question?

You know, Andy, you're starting to sound a lot like both Trump Jr. and R.F.K. Jr., who said that this election will. be decided on podcast. I think I'm seeing your influence here. What would I not like to do? Honestly, I would hate to work on Capitol Hill right now. Like, honestly, I would hate to work for any representative. I think that I would utterly hate my fucking job. And I worked on Capitol Hill, you know, a decade ago, and it was a wonderful experience. But in this climate, with these fucking motherfuckers walking past the Neanderthals, like anti-trans signs on a daily basis, like,

someone would have to come and get me. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, they would have to come and get me. As someone who is marrying somebody who works in Congress, I can concur that it's a, not the best job right now. Yeah. Should we ban AI right now?

If anyone's ever listened to me, and we've done several interviews with people about AI on this show, I would say yes. I think that people are not understanding the harm. We've failed to regulate regular social media and technology platforms and companies that have done extraordinary harm to our elections, to our political process, to people's mental health. That, you know, I think that 50 years from now, maybe not even 50 years, honestly, I think that, you know, 20, 30 years from now, people are going to look back and be like, wow, they really didn't know what they were getting themselves into. And the entire world will have changed and just, you know, I go back to Jurassic Park. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

And that was one of my favorite lines from the original. The thing I would ban is calling what exists right now is calling it AI. Because I don't think it's intelligent. And I'm sick of it being sort of anthropomorphized. And when we say things like, oh, they're using an industry term like they're saying, well, it's having hallucinations. No, it's not. It's not having hallucinations. It's not a brain. It's feeding you bullshit. And it's feeding you bullshit because it's taking in bullshit from all across the internet. It's not intelligent. It really pisses me off when people talk about this as like what we have now, like chat GPT as AI. Why? Because it writes or, you know, it talks in grammatical sentences. But who cares? It's often giving unbelievably bad information that anyone with a drop of actual intelligence can tell is false. So why are we calling it artificial intelligence?

Why are we using words like hallucination to describe when it gives bad information? Like, that shit, I think, just needs to stop. And we need to stop buying into it. We need to stop buying into the Sam Altman's of the world and letting them sort of set the tone for all this. I'm going to do it first here. I'm going to quote a Trump policy suggestion. Do we remember what he said he had to slow it down for the testing? I think we need to slow it down and really think about what the fuck is happening here personally.

Yeah, agreed. Good points all around. Okay, what's the proper way to celebrate the 4th of July? Oh, is it wrong to say with copious amounts of cocktails? Nothing wrong with that. And by celebrate, I mean, just like a majority of white people didn't know why they had off for Juneteen, but they took the day anyway. That's how I feel about the 4th of July. So, okay, cocktails and a beach it is. I will simply say that the whole point of America should be that you, don't tell someone the proper way to celebrate the Fourth of July. I like this. So in the spirit of what America aspires to, I will say you go ahead and celebrate the Fourth of July any way you

damn will please as long as you're not harming someone else. Unless, of course, you're on a deserted island. Well, yes, obviously if you're in, you know, on international territory, Danielle, it's totally different. Yeah, totally different. Yeah. David Raw. is an editor at and co-owner of Defector and co-host of the distraction podcast. Jeb Lund is a journalist whose writing has appeared in such places as The Guardian, Vice, Rolling Stone, Gawker, and the New Republic. He's also the co-host of the Quaid and Full podcast. And when they stare at each other from across a crowded bar and chant Echo Echo Azzarach, they are the super co-hosts of the It's Christmastown podcast and my next guest, Jeb, Dave, welcome. Hey.

form of insight, shape of comment. Okay, so this is our special taped in advance, All-Star 4th of July episode. A little later, we'll have Fox News as Jesse Waters live in studio to share his crafty plan for getting that special hot dog to leave the barbecue with you. Oh, this is nice. Academy Award-winning actor John Void is going to stop by

with his tips for how best to purge our universities. But first, Jeb and Dave, I'm going to ask both of you a series of questions, and then at the end I'll announce, who is the greater American? My choice will be completely objective, and as always, I will be guided by the principles of Alistair Crowley's liberal Al-Vellegious, the strict mathematical logic of Giddle numbering, and of course the weird sexual mores of science fiction grandmaster Robert Heinlein. Contestants, are you ready?

Yes, yes, sir. Okay. So I checked the tape, and it turns out that in the last 27 quizzes we've done, Jeb went first, and I apologize for that misstep. So in the interest of fairness, my first question this time goes to Jeb. Jeb, what do you imagine the 4th of July is like for Lauren Bobert? Wow, that's a great question. First of all, thank you for having me on for America's last birthday.

For sure. You know, I got to feel like she's just, you know, she's going to Party City. She's getting all the plastic plates and cups. And at the end of it, there's just sort of like a home zamboni that pushes all the debris into one of the larger cans that you wheel out to the side of the road and the truck. just picks the whole can up. She has that on its side and it's just getting pushed in there. Wow. Dave? The party city part was my first thought, of course, as with anybody, when you're thinking of Lauren Bobert, you're thinking of shopping. What's she getting? You know, how can I steal that look?

But I think that once you get back to the part where you've come home with all your patriotic caps and whatever sort of pharmaceutical enhancers you can get behind the party city to keep the party going for, you know, could be days. I'm just imagining her at home. maybe by herself, maybe with a bunch of kids, each of them holding like a comically oversized gun. Like the sort of thing that looks like it should be a float in a parade. And they're not shooting. It's just like, it's just sort of like a comfort thing. The way that you might hold a hot dog in one hand and a beer in another this weekend, that is how she is holding an AR-15 that is sized for Shaquille O'Neal. Wait, can I change my answer? I have a tacky answer. Okay.

Okay, so it serves nothing but ballpark B. Franks and nobody else can get their hand on one, nothing. Okay. Oh, alright. All right. Yeah. Because when she jerked that guy's dick off at the show. Yeah, it plumped when she held it. There it is.

There it is. Yeah. Next question goes to Dave first. In the time it takes us to record this, how many gifts from really rich guys do you think Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas will receive? I like that he's moved to the stage. You get older and, like, your birthday gifts start a real. arriving in the form of like fancy dinners or like a weekend up state.

Like it's not the sort of thing where you don't have to like give him a boom box or whatever, you know, a hundred CD changer. So I like the idea that he's just going to spend July 4th on one of those like Jeff Bezos low orbit blue origin things. So it's just him and Harlan Crow weightless in the chassis of a orbiting spacecraft talking about wokeism. Jeb, how many gifts will Clarence Thomas receive while we are recording this podcast? I mean, like, right now I'm just picturing that scene in the wall where all the school children are going off the conveyor belt into the meat grinder.

But it's just like blue Tiffany boxes. I don't know. See, I kind of feel like, you know, along with Dave, you know, he's getting older. So it's not so much about gifts. It's about experiences. Those are the things that are really irreplaceable. So, you know, the idea of going to one of those ranches where, Dick Cheney can really light up an animal because it's been tied down. Only it's in a country that

doesn't have an extradition treaty and the animal is Noam Chomsky. Yep. Somebody who we don't even know, a billionaire who has made money entirely in like whatever Fort Worth real estate is painstakingly creating every scene of the icedy vehicle surviving the game with Clarence Thomas Gistiv in the F. Murray Abraham part. I know everyone's seen that movie. I know. Yeah, not a movie I am familiar with. Oh, well, you can probably guess what it's about.

I think I can get the gist of it. Okay, Jeb, imagine you're Martha and Alito. Hmm. Done. Already compelling. That's it. That's the question. No.

Jeb, imagine you're Martha and Alito, and you have a vision. And in that vision, the Archangel Abadon tells you that for the rest of your life, you can only fly one flag. And keep in mind that you believe in angels, so it never like enters your mind that maybe you just ate some bad mozzarella sticks before bedtime. What flag are you flying for the rest of your life? I'd see if it were just me, not as Martha Anelito. I mean, I know the answer right away. It's the Greendale flag with the E. Pluribus anis.

Sure. An excellent choice, but probably not hers. Ah, man. Now I'm actually thinking she could be tricked into flying that flag the way the dean was. Right. I mean, these are not the sharpest tags. If you just let them know that it's really going to piss off some liberal group, I don't think they're going to look at what the actual, you know, the words are on it.

If you're stuck with one for life, you're going to want to go with a classic. And, like, unfortunately, the ones that are coming to me, you know, in terms of right-wing grievance are like, I'm not Fonda Jane or something like that. So maybe just sort of like you split the difference and do like a POW MIA flag, but like the background of it is just America's colleges because of all the conservatives who are no longer able to get a first, trade education because of woke. Interesting. That is tragic.

Wow. It's a lost generation. It is. Dave. So my answer for this, maybe I'm overthinking it. Obviously, she would be excited to meet the angel and to tell the angel about her feuds with her neighbors, I'm sure. And the angel will be like, okay, well, I have limited time.

So just we got to pick your flag. At that point, she, I think the one bit that I think that Jeb left out is that Martha Ann has talked about how she is sort of submissive to Samuel Alito on this, because the the justice's, you know, role is so important in making sure that our culture becomes 1874 again. And I think that if she were to defer to him, she would ask Samuel Alito, what flag do you want to fly? And that I think that he, while I'm sure that he also loves the whole, you know, Catholic flag thing, I think is enough of a Phillies guy that it would somehow, like, he has a flag that is like Shane Victorino Lives Matter, you know, and it's an American flag, but all the stars are replaced. with small images of Shane Victorino's face. And that would be the one that they would wind up hoisting above the beach house

because he just, he loved the fly in Hawaiian, I'm sure, and would like to remember a time when the Phillies won the right way and not the way that they do now where everybody's jerseys opened down to their naval. Okay. Interesting that neither of you said her freak flag. That's implied, isn't it? Okay. Fair enough.

The bit from the story, I guess it was the Washington Post story, where she screamed at the. reporter that asked her about the flag went into the garage, came out with another flag and hoisted it and was like, is this what you want? That's a freak flag right there. Whatever you grab when you're screaming at another guy while being like, is this what you want me to do? You want me to raise this flag? That is a, you're hoisting your freak flag. All right.

That's like this is how we get ants, but a flag flag. I'll show you. You want it that way? Fine, but I'm going to show you. All right. Next question. Dave, as you no doubt know, Louisiana Governor Greg Landry, recently signed a law mandating that the Ten Commandments be hung in every public school classroom, demonstrating a new willingness for Louisiana to go where other states have not. And this move was cheered by many other Republicans, including Donald Trump, who said, and I quote,

I love the Ten Commandments in public school, private schools, and many other places for that matter. He then later posted on Truth Social, Bring Back TTC, which I assume stands for the Ten Commandments and not something like total testicular cancer. Or the guy from Magnum. We're going to bring him back. You know, tragically, he was lost Roger Mosley. My two-part question for you, Dave, is how many of the commandments do you think Trump can name? And how many do you think he actually keeps?

I mean, I think the question of how many can you name is a great one to sort of like apply across the board here. I think Trump could give you two or three. I think that he is in at any moment in accordance with like negative seven commandments that there's like, but I would love to hear like just his, he should have to do 10 because I feel like numbers like 7, 8, 9 and 10 are going to be amazing. Like the sharper image would be involved in one of those like somebody that used to be on the PGA tour but hasn't been for a really long time. Like he'd be like, yes, Puponovic, you got one of my commandments is you got to remember what a great putter he was. And like, that'll be, that I think is how it goes. I know I should say that he could do, you know, more than two of them just for the sake of

startling and delighting our listeners. But I don't, if he could do four, I will buy you a Coke. All right. Jeb. Dave says four. I think, yeah, I think it's maybe four max. I think he gets sort of like killing, theft, adultery. And then it gets real wobbly.

And then maybe he can remember the Graven image one. And the rest is just like rattling around up there, like, no. fat chicks and more skin on HBO. No shirt, no shoes, no service. How many can he keep? I mean, I think the comedy answer is like zero, but like that's also probably the true answer. So I'm just going to go with that.

Okay. Yeah. No, I think that's probably the correct answer. Chad, Bob, I want to stick with you here. In addition to the Ten Commandments, Louisiana also became the first state to classify Mifopristone as a dangerous, controlled substance. My question to you is, as a Floridian, proud Floridian, as you are, how jealous do you think your beloved Governor Ron DeSantis is about all of this?

And I want your answer on a scale from 1 to 10, with one being, I support you, my brother in Christophascism, and 10 being, how dare you, you tiny souls, you malignant professionals, you'll hear from me, God damn you. 10. It's not an original idea, but he's pissed that he didn't have it. And also, I mean, I imagine that there's probably like a Florida GOP donor carve out where you could just be running like Miffipristone Mills. So people could just go get like 70, 80 pills and then drive him up to Kentucky where we could just be getting some some tax revenue and some profits and pretend that it was still in accordance with our biblical wishes. So I think I think he's really resentful.

I think he's pissed. I think there was a really crooked way he would have done this that is being passed up right now. Dave, any thoughts on this? It's obviously 10. I think the one bit that I'd add to that, man, Jeb is self-evidently correct there. I wouldn't say that I'm exactly handing it to DeSantis on this, but I like that he is enough of an oath that you can always tell how upset he is whenever he's getting usurped in one of these ways. Like he is incapable of being chill about the fact that there's like another nearby state that is currently being dumber than his. He was like that during the debates. I remember like Charlie Christ landing like straight rights on him in debates.

And, you know, of course, in an election that Charlie Chris would go on to lose by whatever, 15, 20 points. But he is like the embodiment of that Simpson scene where like Martin is scoring on me now. Like he's basically like capable of giving up buckets to anybody. And then he will always like seem really upset about it. Yeah, he gets a look on his face that someone who reminds me a lot of it is a homelander on the boys. As he's, you know, upset. but he's trying to smile through it, but all he wants to do is burn off somebody's dick with his

laser vision. Yeah. DeSantis, to me, gets a similar look where he wants to smile and it comes off more as a grimace. His smile is, I wrote about this a million years ago. I can't tell you how happy I am that this is not a national issue and I can't tell you how sick I am that Jeb has to live with it all the time. His smile is, like, to me, one of the great achievements of this era of politics. It is like it was constructed by focus groups.

And it has the one real comp that I had was like the way that Tim Tebow's throwing mechanics looked at the end of his NFL career where he had been coached by like 10 different guys to do different things. And he had taken all of their advice and was deploying all of that advice simultaneously. So he was doing mechanically stuff that like a body is not meant to do. Like he's getting low and getting high at the same time. His arm slot is in three different spots, like, at one moment. That is basically what it looks like when DeSantis tries to convey, like, I'm a friendly guy. I think that's dead on. Okay.

Last question. Possibly a hard one. What is the greatest song about America? And a word of warning here, I'm cutting the mic of anyone who says American Idiot by Green Day. Oh, yeah. This is going to sound like a piss take answer, but I love this song, even though it's not really a song. It's America by Hugh Lorry from A Bit of Fry and Lurie. where he's got a bandana tied around his forehead and he's just doing Springsteen.

And the lyrics are just, America, America, America, America, America, America, America, America, America, America, America, America, the States. That's it for me. Okay. Sounds like a damn bop. I am not familiar with it. This is recency bias, but I hope this won't sound like I'm bragging, but I was in Goodwill over the weekend. Nice. Must be nice.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I've been very successful in my career. And this is way off brand for Goodwill, too, because it's usually, it's just, you know, songs that are popular now. But I heard Pink Houses by John Cougar Mellencamp and was, I have to like question everything about the snobbish aesthetics that I've built up in my life. I was kind of like, I think this is a wonderful song. I think this is John Cougar Mellon Camp's at his very best.

And because that was the most recent. patriotic seeming American song that I've heard. And because it's the big John Cougar-Mellencamp song that doesn't involve sucking on a chili dog outside of a tasty freeze. I will say, pink houses. That's a really good place to do it, though. Yeah, it's one of the, it's easily top five. I just don't like hearing it described.

Do what you want with your chili dog. Do it behind a tasty freeze if you want. Just keep it to yourself. Yeah, you don't need it in your face. Okay. Interesting answers. Nobody went with this land as your land, which to me is the obvious answer. I'm sure it's good.

knew we were going to get it wrong. I was just wondering how we got it wrong. So thank you. Well, it's not a question of wrong. It's, uh, you know, no one went with the acoustic slide guitar version of born in the USA, which is tremendous. And nobody, this really surprised me. Nobody went with any of the Mark Russellish songs that Bill McNeil sings while playing the piano in season four episode three of news radio. Oh, God. I have a couplet from one of those stuck in my head forever, which is just him banging away on a piano going, William Clinton came to town, riding on inflation. And then he just didn't have any more lyrics after. Just an absolute genius episode and just an absolute genius actor.

All right. That ends the quiz. And I have just enough time to announce the winner. And this is unexpected. It's me. Congratulations to Andy. I was hoping it was America, but I like this more. I am the greater American. In a sense, if it is me, it is America. Thank you both so much for being here, David Roth and Jeb Lund. We will see you next year, if not sooner. Yeah, thanks. Happy Fourth. It was an honor.

Folks, I am very excited to welcome to the new abnormal. Suzette Mullen, who is the author of the memoir The Only Way Through is Out and was recently featured in a New York Times article entitled The Late and The Late and The Late in life lesbian experience blossoms online. Social media and websites have become a valuable resource to some women who have come out in their later years or after marriages to men. Susette, first, I just want to thank you. I want to thank you for the vulnerability and the openness that you shared in that piece. It was, you know, as folks who listened to the new abnormal know, I'm a black queer woman, a child of immigrants and in various times over the last decade or so, I've talked about my

coming out story. I've been on the front lines fighting for for marriage equality, have worked in and outside of the LGBTQ movement as a policy wonk and a lobbyist and, you know, all of the things. I think that we often get stuck in the headlines of what it means to come out. And a lot of conversation is usually around younger people and the bullying that happens in schools and why protections are needed for young people. Talk to us about the experience. I believe that you came out at 54 and this was 2016. Our country was about to shift in a direction we had no idea it was going to take on. So walk us through kind of your moment intertwined. with a really incredible political time in this country.

Yes. So first of all, thank you for having me and letting me share some more of my story. I came out at 54. I was writing a memoir about my professional journey. And in the course of writing that story, this different story emerged, which helped me get clarity about a very intense long-term friendship I had with a female friend and that set in motion. The story I tell in my memoir and my coming out journey. It was, you know, first, what am I, I'm in love with this friend? What does that mean? Am I really gay? All of,

all of these questions. And then what, if anything, am I going to do about it? Because I was in a, I was in a very solid marriage to a man I loved. I had two adult children. I had kind of the American dream, you know, white picket fence life and was not at all looking to. to disrupt my life, but my truth was inside me. So I did finally make the decision that I wasn't willing to go to my grave without knowing who I fully was. And this was all happening over a period of about 18 months, but I was separated from my husband and had made the decision that I was going to leave the marriage and come out right around the election of 2016. I was a big Hillary supporter. I went to Wellesley College, Hillary is a fellow Wesley alum. And I was very optimistic about the future. And I was also,

you know, to be honest, Danielle, having lived believing I was a heterosexual person leading a heterosexual life for 54 years, although I consider myself very progressive and, you know, all the things, I really had no idea what it was like to be part of the queer community. because I wasn't part of the queer community. And I spent election night 2016 at a Wellesley friend's house. We were planning to have a victory party for Hillary. And of course, we know how that story ended. And I just remember going to bed or trying to go to bed that night with this sort of deep pit in my stomach, obviously personally and then just politically for our country.

that it didn't feel super personal to me until it was personal to me. And I hadn't really felt scared about coming out. I felt scared about leaving a whole life and, you know, could I really do this? But that evening, I started feeling scared for myself as being part now of a marginalized community. Yeah, I think that's so interesting. And thank you so much for sharing that and walking us through because as we're recording this, you know, we're watching as the Supreme Court makes decisions about the lives of 330 million plus Americans and how I'm watching like so many millions of Americans, these decisions come down with a pit in my

stomach about how I'm going to be able to live, how all of us are going to be able to live full and complete lives in an increasingly oppressive environment for women, for queer people, for black people, for people of color, and, you know, talk to us about kind of the experiences that you've had since. It's now, you know, been several years since you have come out. The country, and of course your own life have changed so much. And in many ways, LGBTQ plus people are way less safe than they were in 2016 than they are now. I never thought that I would say that, right? I was celebrating in 2015 like so many other people when the White House turned rainbow for the first time because of the Oberfeld decision that allowed same-sex marriages to have the same validity and beauty

and complications as heterosexual marriages. And so what has this kind of journey in the backdrop of a country that is backsliding its ideals. What has that been like for you? Yeah, that's such an interesting question. And in fact, just before we hopped on this recording, my Facebook fee came up with a memory and it was the overfell decision and it was exactly nine years ago today. So, yeah, I attended my first pride in June of 2016 shortly after I came out. And I remember it was in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, which is where I currently live. And I remember walking, I had a new girlfriend, my first girlfriend, and walking through the streets of Lancaster, wondering if it was safe to hold her hand outside the ropes of the Pride Festival.

And I would say that I've experienced some of what it is like to be a queer person in the world. I do recognize my privilege. I think in many ways I can still quote unquote pass as a straight woman. And so I've had that experience of having to make that decision each time. Do I share who my partner? Do I share that she's a romantic partner? Do I just say she's a friend? The signs of affection and all of those things.

So those little details, they're not detail. those moments that I took for granted when I lived as a straight person. In the city I live now in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, the city itself is pretty, I'd say it's pretty diverse and pretty progressive. It's a blue city in the midst of a very red county. And so I've seen both sides of welcoming. It's a sanctuary city. It's got all these really great things.

And then we had an incident just last March, there was Lancaster Pride, which is one of the community organizations in town supporting the LGBTQ plus community, was sponsoring a drag queen story hour at the local library. And it was this very quiet event. And then the local Republican commissioners got wind of it and it turned into this whole thing. And there were protests. then worse, there were bomb threats and the whole thing was canceled. And so I've seen kind of all sides of it in my new hometown over the last seven plus years. And recently, I feel like I've seen more of the underbelly of Lancaster City, Lancaster County. I was very optimistic and very naive, I think, when I first came here. And there are, there are a lot of people doing really,

really good work for the LGBT plus community. And I've been part of that. And I've seen more and more of the other side. Let me ask you this. I know that you've only lived there for seven years, but it is an interesting makeup of a place inside of a very red district. Do you think that, if not, for the inundation of anti-LGB, anti-trans, the attacks on, you know, drag culture, and the community that has existed, that has been doing story times for quite some time. Do you think without that, people would have even paid attention,

meaning that there is just such heightened focus because of such awful lies that are spread about the LGBTQ plus community, that without that, would people have even noticed? For people who had been in the community for quite some time before you, was this a shock to them? about something that they would have to cancel and strategize around because of bomb threats?

I think that most of the community activists and people who are engaged in the LGBTQ plus community in Lancaster City, my impression, I can't speak for them, but my impression is that this was not a big surprise. Okay. I think the hope was that we were going to have a lovely story hour for, families and it was going to be this family friendly, inclusive event. And originally there were like 26 people signed up, or maybe even fewer. And it was just not supposed to be this big deal, but then it turned into it. But the fact that it turned into this big political football, I don't think came as a surprise for anyone who has been at all engaged in activism in the city.

Part of the article of that I found so endearing in the New York Times was kind of the ways in which later in life lesbians were finding community on social media, we're finding their place and space. I think that if you, you know, dating on itself is hard, I think, regardless of what age group that you're in and what city that you're in. But talk to us about like building sense of community at a later age in life and doing so online. and kind of what was the most surprising piece about being able to navigate that space? Yeah. So it was early 2016 when I was really deeply questioning my sexuality. And at the time, I felt like I was the only person in the world who was going through what I was going through because I didn't know a single other person in real life who

had experienced this later in life revelation. And that turns out is a very common experience among many of the women who were and are in these online support groups. So when we finally found the groups, it was just this sense of, first of all, relief that you're not the only one. There are others who are going through what you're going through or further ahead of you on the journey who can kind of give you advice, inspire you, give you hope. because early on, it was a very, it was a very dark journey for me. And I think for many people, there was, you know, there's joy on the other side, but when I was going through the questioning and then the decision making, what, if anything, did I, what I do about this? It was, it was the hardest time of my life because it wasn't just a personal decision affecting me. It was

affecting an entire family. And I really did question what. whether I had the right to blow up other people's lives. And so the community online was absolutely life-saving. And some of those women are now my closest friends in real life. And I honestly don't know where I would be had I not found that online community. That's beautiful. I think that, one, as things in our country become so intensified, particularly from folks who are from marginalized communities, that finding community, finding those safe spaces, that Oasis is incredibly important.

And whether folks have the ability to do so in real life as well as online, I think it's going to be critical to, you know, to our survival, to our preservation of mental health. As we close out, last question for you, what advice do you have for people that, you know, maybe listening to, this today and are still terrified of coming out of what people will think of the state of this country and what it would mean to be gay, to be queer. What advice do you give to them? Yeah. So it really does tie into what we were just talking about community is you may feel alone and you are not alone. I mean, you may live in a community in real life where you don't know a single other person who is queer or who has experience some of the things you're experiencing, but chances are they're there, but you may not be able to find them right away, but there is community online. And I've kind of two pieces of advice that

I have offered. One is find that community, however you can. And then the second is ultimately listen to yourself, learn to trust yourself, because you're going to hear lots of advice from lots of different people and ultimately you're the only person who can really know what is true for yourself. And at the end of the day, at least for me and for the queer people that I'm in community with, authenticity is worth a cost. There is a cost, but there is peace, joy, and possibility on the other side. And that's really what I want to leave people with that message. I love that. you know, I'll use it, but I will quote you. Okay.

Go ahead and use it. Going forward, authenticity is worth the cost because there is. You can live a life and in many ways our society rewards you for lying, for hiding, for assimilating. I think that is, it is a beautiful note to leave people with folks. The book is the only way through is out, which is out now as well as the New York Times article, which is up the late in life lesbian experience blossoms online. Susa, thank you so much for making the time for The New Abnormal.

Really appreciate you. Really appreciate your writing. Thank you so much, Daniel. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of The New Abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going. This podcast is a Daily Beast production with production by Jesse Cannon and Seamus Calder. Want more great listens?

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