The Daily Beast Podcast - Here’s Why Joe Manchin Is Always Dumping on Other Democrats

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

What the hell is Joe Manchin doing?! Max Rose, who served in Afghanistan and won a term in Congress as a Democrat representing a red district in Staten Island and Brooklyn, explains where Manchin is coming from given that “there’s not another Democrat who could win that seat”—and without it Mitch McConnell is running the Senate. Then Molly has a great talk with American Crime Story: Impeachment producer Sarah Burgess about “a really profound story about power dynamics and what emotions can lead us to,” whether anything’s really changed since what boiled down to “an incredibly uncomfortable story about basically a sexual coercion” with Paula Jones, and looks back on “the cheap attacks on (Monica Lewinsky) from older women who are quote unquote feminist that were just beyond the pale.” And finally, Molly talks with Arizona Secretary of State and candidate for governor Katie Hobbs about Arizona’s insane cyber ninja election audit. If you haven't heard, every single week The New Abnormal does a special bonus episode for Beast Inside, the Daily Beast’s membership program. where Sometimes we interview Senators like Cory Booker or the folks who explain our world in media like Jim Acosta or Soledad O’Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner and sometimes its just discussing the fuckery. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a Beast Inside member where you’ll support The Beast’s fearless journalism. Plus! You’ll also get full access to podcasts and articles. To become a member head to newabnormal.thedailybeast.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Jong-Fast and welcome to The Daily Beast, The New Abnormal. I'm a left-wing pundit and an editor-at-large at the Daily Beast. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. Our world has been turned up to down. On the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and figure out how to get ourselves out of it. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon. I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails.

Today we have an excellent episode. Sarah Burgess will join us to talk about Molly and I's new favorite television show, American crime story impeachment, which she's the producer and writer of. Then we'll talk to Arizona Secretary of State, Katie Hobbs. But first, we have former Afghanistan vet, senior advisor of the Biden administration on COVID response, and former congressman for New York's 11th district, Max Rose. Welcome to the new abnormal Max Rose.

Thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan. Oh, well, we're very excited to have you. And I, you know, I've followed your career. I watched you run for that congressional seat. And I thought, there's no way. A Democrat will never win that seat. And you did.

First of all, I've won one election. I've lost one election. So who knows if I know anything here? I mean, one of the reddest, though. I mean, a really, you know, a conservative bastion. I appreciate you saying that. And look, I truly do believe. in the end, that when people vote, they vote on gut instinct. When people vote, there's a

myriad of different complex factors that they take into account, some national dynamics, some local dynamics, and all in between. But ultimately, you know, you always hear folks saying, how we're united by so much more than we're divided by this and that. It's become a rather cliche throwaway line. But there is a deeper point here, which is that while we're, we are extraordinarily polarized as a nation, and while there is incredible daily political combat, the divisions are not along clear policy lines that we may assume. So I'll give you a few examples. Universal childcare, universal preschool, enormously popular in my home, enormously popular, doing things like an infrastructure bill, enormously popular, ending our forever wars, enormously

popular and also just, and I know that's something that we're going to get into, or at least I hope we will, addressing corporate tax loopholes. So the wealthiest amongst us are not paying lower tax rates than cops, firemen, teachers, and so many others. You know, what is that, those are not milk toast incrementalist issues. Right. But on the same hand, they are deeply unifying. And so I do believe that that is not just a recipe for potentially electoral victories, but it's also a recipe for doing the right damn thing in this country. It strikes me as interesting because right now we have this reconciliation bill and an infrastructure bill. And we have a Democrat who represents one of the poorest states, the sixth poorest state in the country, sort of quibbling about that it's too expensive when he, his constituents desperately need these things.

I mean, how do you square this? Because it is popular. Yeah, Joe Manchin is a really interesting situation here because, look, and I know this is not a popular thing to be saying, but I'm confident that I'm not sure if there's another Democrat that could win that seat. And so, and without that victory, the Democrats do not have control of the Senate. So I think that we should be rather sensitive when we're coming out. and saying, well, Joe Manchin, you don't understand your own electorate. So then I think that there's

probably a deeper point to be made about what is he trying to say here, right? Because on the same hand, Joe Manchin has been very aggressive about tax fairness, extraordinarily aggressive about tax fairness. I do think, though, that he is noting the power of inflation on its effect and impact on working people. And that is not something that we should be losing sight of. But I disagree, though, with his reading, his economic reading of the situation. And I disagree with his policy reading of the situation through and through. I mean, I would just say one thing about inflation, which we have to talk about when we talk about inflation, which is that we expected inflation. We went from zero to 60, right?

You have to have, when you completely shut down an economy, you have to have inflation. Like that was, you know, I understand that that's an anxiety a lot of people have, but where it is, and look, you know, we're in a world of modern monetary theory, right? Where money is, we're treating money in a way that we haven't ever, but a lot of the inflation anxiety was expected. So I'm just going to say, and I think, I also think like inflation really is a right-wing talking point. I mean, for now, look, it may not always be, and we have to be mindful of that, but I just am a little bit. bit squeamish about inflation. Well, no, I, well, I think that there's, there's a middle answer here, which is that inflation is something that people are feeling right now. Now, I am of the belief that that the source of that, the root of that is found in a few subsectors, right? You're looking at

housing. You're looking at some supply chain issues. Right. I was going to say, you know, like there's a few things that I do see that ironing out. When Democrats turn around and say, well, look, this is just a talking point. I don't think they're doing justice to that there are some very clear statistics right now. Now, where it is a talking point, I do believe, is two points. One, that this is going to be a long-term thing. And two, that it is somehow a justification for us not to pay for, with an emphasis on pay for, universal child care, paid family leave, expanding Medicare, bolstering infrastructure, those things do not, in my reading of the situation, do not have significant inflationary consequences. And that's where I think that we are confusing

talking points with economics. So I'm not going to get, you know, it would, it's beyond my comprehension right now, the political calculus that Joe Manchin is seen. Sometimes it may just be he wants to position himself as against Democrats. It does not matter what the issue is because his folks from a cultural perspective are not aligning with Democrats. Now, it's fascinating what we see, though, in America today, the political dynamic, because you've got the Democratic Party, purportedly the party of working people, representing the 100 wealthiest counties in America, the Republican Party purportedly trying to claim that they are

the party of working class people, despite the fact that when they're in power, they give tax cuts to the rich. But what they are doing and employing is this age-old tactic. They did the same thing during Reagan, where they're trying to use cultural third rails to distract people from economic self-interest. In the face of that, what the Democratic Party cannot do is fall into this what's the matter with Kansas diatribe where we are so culturally ignorant and arrogant. You know, if you go to the Upper East Side, right? You go to the Upper West Side, and Democrats all the time are talking about

how they want to tax them, how they want to tax wealthy people more, right, for least. But those folks in the Upper West Side, Upper East Side, they're voting against their economic self-interest at times. And somehow we don't, we, we stick it. But when other people vote in a complex, multidimensional, we scoff at it. We have got to start to understand as a party,

that when people vote, it is not just an expression of self-interest. It is an expression of who they are, who they want to be, where their values align. That's never going to change, nor should it. And we have to understand that. Yeah. So, Max, you were appointed by the Biden administration to help out with the COVID response. There's a lot of talk that Biden is getting more serious and starting to stop coddling the anti-vaxxers. What are you seeing here? What do you think about what's happening?

Yeah, this is not a moment of where this is a personal responsibility issue. This is clear as day a moment of collective responsibility. Now, we have been in this crisis for so long, and we have read so much about it that we are in order of missing the mental issues at hand. This is in the end, when the story of COVID will be written, it is a crisis of hospital capacity. It is a crisis of medical capacity. Now, that in itself is a problem because we went through multiple generations of health care optimization, where in a good day, our hospital systems are operating in 85, 90 percent occupancy. So it takes very little over. But if people do not

get vaccinated, they have an incredibly higher likelihood of being hospitalized and being in an ICU. the more people who are hospitals in an ICU, the greater of a chance it is that hospitals will have to shut down anything else. And we say, oh, elective surgeries, they're shutting down for elective procedures. Right, but it's cancer surgery, right? Exactly. We're talking about mammograms here. We're talking about all sorts of very significant, important things that I think represent part of the foundation that people get vaccinated, not just because their health matters. but because we are all dependent on it. But I think that if there's anything

that this administration has been missing, it is constantly going back during the communication to how we are going to get back to some semblance of a new normal. Now, you don't have to say we're going back to old normal. Right.

But you got to talk about how are we going to get these damn masks off? How are we going to get to a place where I'm not nervous about my kid going to school. I'm not nervous about school shut up. I'm not nervous about us going back to a quality expanding testing so that we're doing true screening and surveillance testing. You can talk about the ways in which boosters will, yes, help people. We can go to a system where maybe there's going to be recurrentinations just like we have for the flu. We can talk about

how we're going to expand our biosurveillance infrastructure. We can talk about how we're going to our hospital capacities that our systems are. are not getting overloaded so quickly. But all the while, the North Star is how do we resume our lifestyle? How do we resume our lifestyle? How do we get back to this not being on the front page every day? So here's my question for you, though. How do you convince people who have been convinced by Facebook or by Fox News that vaccines are a personal choice and that there isn't enough data. I mean, and they'll just wait for the FDA approval. By the way, it's FDA approved now. But like, how do you talk to those people without, I mean, for example, I've read a piece this week that said

that you shouldn't shame these people for dying because they're really kind of brainwashed. But how do you communicate with them otherwise? Yeah. Well, first of all, history will really, really look down on those who duriated at the deaths or the suffering of the unbushed. vaccinated. That's just wrong. Now, what we found at the Pentagon, where we achieved a 75% vaccination rate of a population in which over 80% or under 85% or under the age of 35. So very hard to reach community is that if you just focus on education, you're getting it wrong. There's a holy trinity here of education, accessibility, and encouragement. And you have to meet people where they are. You got to understand. Some folks, yes, it was FDA approval. For other people,

it was the fact that, you know, it's not accessible enough. For other folks, when you could get vaccinated, when you potentially had access to a four-day weekend when you could get vaccinated, the truth of the matter is, is if you try to convince someone who is healthy, 25 years old, that they are significantly rolling the dice here, the statistics, Don't line up with that. Now, do I think that it is the safe thing to do? It's the healthy thing to do to get vaccinated? Of course I do. And it's the right thing to do. And you're protecting your family and so on and so forth. But you shouldn't insult someone's intelligence either. I mean, the statistics are that this disease dramatically affects those with underlying conditions

and those who are elderly. But that doesn't take away from a very profound and strong argument that could be made to a healthy young person, that it's important that they get vaccinated as well, not just from a personal responsibility angle, but also from a collective responsibility angle. But you can't patronize people. Right. You got to meet them where they are without insulting their intelligence.

I mean, I agree, but like you have to meet people where they are, well, not insulting their intelligence. But, I mean, these are people who are right, they can't get, they're trying to get ivermectin, Ivermectin prescribed and doctors won't prescribe it and so they're going, you know, and getting the apple-flavored one from the feed store. I mean, and you go to conservative pundits and they say things like, don't you dare call ivermectin a horse dewormer because it can be used on lice and it can be used on humans who have, I mean, right? I mean, like they get into

these circuitous arguments instead of just telling their audience that the vaccine is safe. Well, but I think that we're missing a larger point here. which is that in America, we are just addicted to cultural third rails. And it's so interesting here because here we are at this moment where the country is already united. It's not that they need to be united. They are already united around the things that I mentioned earlier. Universal Child Care, paid family leave, expanding Medicare, ending forever wars, really addressing incredible tax unfairness that has caused skyrocketing inequality and billionaires and multi-multimillionaires to rip off the system already, already united about that. But nonetheless, becoming ever more

culturally divided. Now, the interesting thing, though, is we are culturally divided in a way where we're searching for the issue to be divided about. It's almost like we're addicted to the combat. So I could have easily imagined a situation where if Donald Trump had won re-election, you would have some folks say, well, I don't trust Donald Trump. I don't know. I don't try. I don't think that I think he rushed the process, this and that. And then you could have easily imagined Facebook's algorithms and Twitter's algorithms constantly swirling those retweets to a point that we are just ever more polarized. My point being here is that we have got to take these things head on. We have got to take these issues head on before they become a problem. Unite before they become vitriolic.

unite before they become polarizing. And I think then we can really accomplish great things. So you're going to have to shut down Fox News. Talk to me about Afghanistan. You were there. The problem seems like now we have people. We need to get out. The Taliban needs the aid, right?

They need aid from America. So we do have that carrot. Are we going to get these people out? Is the administration doing what they should be doing? Yeah, look, I have all of the confidence in the world that the Biden administration and our incredible military and national security apparatus is doing everything they can in both a covert as well as an overt manner to take care of both American citizens as well as to be there for those who were there for us. But let's make a point here about just the war in and of itself. President Biden did the right thing ending this war. It was untenable. And now, you know, we have three different buckets of folks, right? We have those such as myself who are just openly saying he did

the right thing. I support him. We knew it was never going to be easy or pretty or without sacrifice. And we nonetheless stand by the decision. We honor those who served. I served with unbelievable people in Afghanistan. This is not an indictment of them, but this was the right thing to do. You got another bucket of folks who are saying, look, I supported Donald Trump when he wanted to do this. But now that President Biden did it, I'm going to totally flip-flop. Those folks are frauds. They shouldn't be even acknowledged. They don't have sensible positions.

One might say they're acting in bad faith. That would be very diplomatic in you. Now, the next, though, and the last is we have these folks who are, you know, the resurgence of the foreign policy blob establishment who got us in this mess in the first place and are now. making observations, you know, they dug the, they dug the hole, they're still holding the shovel. And they're making, they're making these comments. You don't want to hear Leon Panetta or John Bolton? What I don't want to hear from folks is this ridiculous statement that somehow Afghanistan could have been turned into a Korea, Japan, or Germany. The far better geopolitical analogy is Vietnam.

Is anyone sensibly saying that we should have stayed in Vietnam, that we would have. would be better off if we had. It's a ridiculous argument. The Afghan military crumbled in a matter of days. That is an indictment of not the sacrifices that were made in Afghanistan. It is evidence that this was untenable, that this was all inevitable. China, Russia, they now have a relatively destabilized situation in their backyard. This puts them in a weaker situation. We maintain capabilities to conduct counterterrorism operations worldwide. We need to be ever more vigilant in building out that infrastructure. But this notion that somehow, like HR McMaster's saying, we just needed Afghanistan to stay Afghanistan. And we're going to keep 3,000 people there,

5,000 people there forever is absurd. And it's insulting to our intelligence. They think that we're idiots. They truly do. Yeah. So it sounds like, like China and Russia really need to step up here in their relationship with Afghanistan. And I've read reporting, which has said the same. How can America set this up in a way that, I mean, China and Russia are not allies? Well, I think that it is a far more complicated situation than that. You know, there are issues of global importance where it is absolutely vital that we figure out a way to address collective action problems by partnering with everybody who has resources. Climate change is going to. You took the words out of my mouth. Climate change, counterterrorism,

particularly pandemics. You know, we can't just afford in this really complex world to divide, to carve up the globe between friends and enemies. Now, with that being said, though, I don't think that we should be naive in terms of our partnerships. We have to understand that China is doing things like stealing our intellectual property. Russia is doing things like obviously subsidizing, really destabilizing cyber attacks against the homeland. And we need to be vigilant and use all the tools that are just both and hard power to make sure that they understand that we're not messing around.

Now, what that does not mean, though, is that we seek to occupy perpetually every nation or region in the world that could potentially be. a place where terrorists could potentially congregate. That is not how you conduct global engagement. That's not how you conduct sensible counterterrorism. No, this was great. Thank you so much, Max Rose.

I hope he'll come back soon. Oh, I really enjoyed it. I look forward to continuing the conversation again soon. Hey, folks, in case you didn't know, every week we do a bonus episode for Beast Inside members, the Daily Beast membership program. On Sunday, we're going to have an extra special guest with Ken Burns, the legendary documentary director.

And he's going to talk to us about his new series on Muhammad Ali. To hear it along with all of our past episodes and gain access to the Daily Beast, fearless journalism, head to new abnormal.thedailybeast.com. That's New Abnormal. dot the Daily Beast.com. Sarah Burgess is the producer and writer of American Crime Story, Impeachment. Welcome to the New Abnormal, Sarah. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Well, we're very excited to have you. Jesse and I have watched, now we've watched how many episodes seven? We have seven episodes. I don't know, Jesse, if you're as obsessed with it as I am, but we're pretty obsessed. I'm happy to hear that. How did you get to the role? Three years ago, I was sort of the producers of American Crime Story reached out to me about, I think they'd for a long time, they'd been wanting to tell this story in an American

crime story season, and they reached out to me, and I actually kind of hesitated to do it, because I was like a pre-team and this happened, and I felt like I knew the whole story. So you're my age. Well, actually, no, I'm older than you are pre-tee. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're older than you are. Never mind. Okay.

Well, I mean, so were you like in high school and it happened? How old were you? Yes. Jesse and I are the same age, except Jesse's like a little older than I am, which is the best joy of my life. Okay. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Maybe a good place to start this is the compliment I will pay you is, and I've had the same experience with the OJ American Crime Story, was that I'm like,

I watched every minute of this. Do I really need to investigate this more? And then you start watching and you see how well you expose the interpersonal relationships. And I'm just like, oh, great, it's three in the morning and I wanted to go to bed three hours ago. But even, I will say, I watch it with my teenage children who did not live through it. They are all like, oh, my God. And what's interesting to me is they can't believe how horrible the media was to Monica. Could you tell us about how you saw showing a part of the story that people haven't heard before? My hesitation was that I, I mean, there's so much to say, by the way, about what I'm seeing and feeling from the different sort of like generations of American culture reacting to this. You know what I mean, so, I mean, your teenagers, like, how famous Monica is, even to that generation.

And like, what those people bring to it, what people my age bring to it, what people my parents age bring to it. what people my parents age bring to it. It's really, really fascinating and chaotic. And I kind of love how chaotic it is. But of course, everything stresses me out at the same time, too. Welcome to Jesse and I's world. Yeah, I mean, nothing with anything like I don't, you know, it's a funny life choice to write like a TV show about an explosive event. Everyone has strong feelings about first a neurotic person like myself. Look, what I, I felt like the story was, it was so exposed because I was like a preteen. I wasn't very interested in it. I, you know, my parents are retired Navy officers. I grew up in a D.C. suburb. So I was always kind of like

close to D.C. in politics, but without a deep, you know, they're sort of political moderates. And they're not, my mom's not really feminist. I wasn't really raised in that. I had to come to as an adult. So there were a lot of the sort of explosive ideas of this didn't reach inside my home, I guess I would say. So I felt exposed to a story that I wasn't necessarily connected to. To be really honest, what made me feel to answer your question that I could tell it in a different way was when I got deep, deep into researching Linda Tripp. And that point of view and that character is frustrated bureaucrat who feels ugly and invisible and is not inherently likable and never, you know, is not someone who I think people would ever root for. Yeah. But is incredibly

complicated and does a terrible thing. I mean, you're always looking for the unanswerable question. And the question of why, what would bring a person to do this weird, elaborate betrayal? And then how can I also love that character as I write her. That is what made me, that's what drew me in. She's so well done. You do really see just how furious she is because she doesn't feel she's getting her due, which is fascinating.

It was fun to take seriously, like, you know, to work in the West Wing and then suddenly be jettisoned out, you know? I mean, to take seriously how painful that might be was sort of something that I got really excited about, even though I recognized that her reaction to it is distorted, you know. One of the things I think is always fascinating, with politics is, you know, people think like, oh, it's a machine and they think there's like all these grinding gears, but then you realize how much of this is petty grievances. Were there relationships between two characters of this that you didn't know about that, that you were really interested in investigating?

Oh, my God. I mean, yeah, I mean, first of all, Newt shutting down the government because Bill Clinton had him sit. Like, there's this great story. I had a scene and ended up being cut, but like when Newt Gingerts arrives and become speaker and there's this great moment where they're flying back from Rabin's funeral. in Israel and Clinton is sort of grieving in the front cabin of Air Force One, but keeps Bob Dolan New Gingrich in the back. And Gingrich, Gingrich was so pissed that he, like, he says it was part of the reason that he had an emotional reaction and shut down the government. Like, just, I love that story and like this sort of, this idea that, you know, Clinton's own fury at that shutdown and how,

what, what emotional state of that place him in, you know, I mean, in the headlines, it's the story about, and it was, you know, this is one of the, this is an early echo of what would happen later on, right? Like now it feels like the government shuts down every other day or whatever. Right. And there's impeachment every other day, by the way, too. The emotional piece of that and like the hurt feelings of that and, you know, just like, I'm from the D.C. suburbs, people shit on my hometown all the time because it's just these ego monsters. It's like unattracted ego monsters on like L.A. But I, I, you know, I love that stuff. I obviously didn't know that Ann Coulter and George Conway were these like pals in their 30s having like the time of their life.

And I love that. And I love that really inspired. me to write their scenes. Like the people who are just coasting through this, you know, and like it's just fun for them. That in contrast to what happens to Monica really excited me too, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting to me, and you do such a good job with Matt Drudge. I mean, and Billy is amazing. He's so good at it. And there's such a, like, why I think it's so good is it like crackles with, you know, sort of excitement. And Newt Gingrich is like the architect of all that is bad. So we haven't gotten to that episode yet. we will relish it.

I think that's a fair assessment. I think so. I just wrote a piece about this, and I've been thinking a lot about the apology. We all owe Monica. And what I think is so great about the show is that it's not exploitive of Monica. As much as these kind of things,

it's like she's been through so much. I don't know. I just, it really speaks to me. I felt like it was a portrayal that really, you know, she was 21. And nobody seems to have remembered that. No, and that's the thing that really, it still retains the ability to shock me at the time.

When you read press reaction to say, like for Barbara Walters interview, there's just so much hatred. People who are generations, generations above her, you know, reacting as though she's the protective of all of this, you know, why do you feel it's not exploited? I mean, I'm glad you feel it's not exploited.

You know, obviously she was involved. And I think. Yes, well, that's why. What do you feel like an exploitative version of the story would look like? Everything else that's been, that was reported for a long, long time. I mean, you saw there are journalists who are respected journalists who won prizes making fun of her. What are you talking about?

Yeah, no, I know. And look, I think it was a different century. I mean, it was a very different sense of the way we treated each other. But still, like, I mean, my own mother, you know, said this horrible thing about her having gum disease. I mean, just horrendous. Yeah. And so, like, you're a feminist. It's just shocking to me.

I know that hindsight is 2020, but it still, it strikes me that this is much more, that her role in it is, you know, doesn't feel exploitive. I think what I wonder about is, like, do you think it would be different now? If we're talking about a president, you know, we feel so deeply the terror of either party often feels like this is so deeply the terror of the other party in the White House. And we just went through 15 types of hell in 2020 and we're still in it. Right. I think that's the thing I often think. People will talk about, you know, a senator from a state who is obviously going to be replaced by his same party.

And, you know, I think what happened with Al Franken is indicative of one thing. But do you think it would be different now if people would feel the itch to blame this young girl who maybe told too many people? Like, do you think that we have solved some of that? Like, how would this play out differently do you think if it happened today? I love that you're interviewing me. I'm sorry. I do. I think that I, well, certain things, like, I,

I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about this because I'm writing a piece on it. Certain things are absolutely not okay now. Like the fat shaming, I don't think that would happen. I mean, that's horrendous. No, I mean, of course. I know I've been fucking steeped in it for a year. I ain't traumatized, you know, upset. By the way, Monica is such a nice, normal person.

Like, I went through a 15th of that when my first book came out where, you know, I got a lot of hate. And even then, I was still, like, totally traumatized for. Yeah, I had an off-broadway, I've had, you know, an off-broadway plague, like, you know, be reviewed or have, like, one interview and I have, like, lay down for it out. You know, it's like, her strength is incredible. And also, like, she's very generous, like, in her sort of, I don't know, her view of the world is still that the world is good. So I think the fat-shaming would certainly not happen. I think that the kind of, like, low offensive comments about her looks. I mean, maybe it would happen in, like, the New York Post or in tablet culture, but I would hope, I mean, I certainly would be all over the people who were writing that because I would say, like, you know, you would never say that about a man. By the point that this happened, 1997, he had numerous allegations of sexual misconduct and sexual assault. I mean, so the idea that she, I mean, you know, you would look at this situation and be like, this man has a real problem.

But what about people who say, and I feel like I heard this election. And it is some very generational. I think that there is, as you say, like the Paula Jones story had been out there for years when this, when this broke in January 1998. And the Paula Jones story

is about something non-consensual happening. Her is someone being sort of brought into a room under one idea and feeling coerced. And then, yes, Paula says she left, you know, before anything happened.

But it's an incredibly uncomfortable story about, you know, basically sexual coercion. And I guess there's this instinct with Clinton to say, and I say this without any, you know, I say this is someone who's been writing

in his point of view, I guess I should say for three years. So I, you know, he is a human being and it's complicated. But there was such, there was a protective instinct around him to say, look, this was consensual, even though, you know, it just doesn't sound like Clinton to be abusive or to be anything but sort of like, I don't know, there's this, this character that he had in public that I think people also. I know what you mean. When you have a president, it seems clear that his side develops such affection for him. Now, with different presidents, his different degrees, you know, I mean,

it's not like George H. W. Bush was necessarily happy in the, Although, who knows? But, like, you know, packing in, like, the huge rallies. It's interesting, like, counter history of the United States. But people have such affection that I'm just curious about the defensiveness. If you lose, you know, not that everything is reduced down to power dynamics, but, like, if you really thought your president would end up on the street and the other party might take power very soon as a result, you know, how much anger can be directed

towards the woman? I don't know. You know, I think, you know, I don't. But I agree with, like, you know, social media and obviously a road back. journalism now about these events, I think certainly would help. And yes, do I think a leading York Times columnist would win a few little surprise for writing shitty things about the woman? Probably not. But I don't know. I've been thinking about that a whole lot because I just think that the gut level terror we experienced, you know, last year or whatever about that presidential

election tells us something about how precious people hold, the precious place these men hold in our culture, you know? Yeah. No, I agree. And I think you could Right, a very persuasive intellectual argument about how a consensual relationship does not mean that the man has to resign, and you don't have to make fun of her fucking gums. You know, I mean, that's what it comes down to. It's very surreal to hear you talk about. I've been reading about your mom's comments for years. It's surreal to hear you talk about it. Yeah, because it's not okay.

And it wasn't okay in 19. Yeah, she has apologized. But, you know, I don't think it was okay in the first place. I don't know. I think that the cheap attacks on her from older women who are quote-unquote feminist is just beyond the pale. No, it's heartbreaking, honestly. You know, that is what you would have imagined would be the constituency for an incredible young woman who arrives in D.C. in 1995 of her whole life ahead of her, you know, who was pulled into this thing, who never wanted it to become public. You know, I think this was a, this was a victim, you know, and when I first

read about comments of, you know, some of the most famous feminist names, I think, you know, It's insane. It's really insane. And it's tough to take. Yeah. It's tough to take. No, I agree. And it's funny because what's so interesting to me is that, and I think the show does a really good job of showing this, is she worked really hard to protect him. This is a woman who is like she, she's like functionally unemployed and she's trying to protect the most powerful man in the world. That didn't go both ways. No, clearly not. It's a really profound story about, you know, the power dynamics and what, what a most. motion can lead us to. And, you know, I think also just a sense of some people, you know, we don't know what we would do in that situation surrounded by the FBI and OIC prosecutors, you know, and you kind of, you reveal yourself in those moments and that, you know, the fundamental unwillingness

to turn your back on people, even people who you don't always have, don't have your best intentions at heart is, it says a lot about her character, you know, it's all very complicated and messy, but I think that's an instinctive thing we can all feel about what she did, you know, she put everything on the line. So, Sarah, the backdrop of while you were developing this, though, was there was a whole lot of impeachment happening. Did any of what happened in the present day effect the lens you saw this impeachment through? I mean, I guess, you know, I only first, the only first came across my desk in 2018. So I was already, and we were all already in a moment in the United States. I think it became clear. I read, you know, Steve Cornacius' this book,

the red and the blue about the 90s is kind of an origin story for our current polarized moment. And I, I did find that, you know, very resonant for where we were then and for where we are even today. I guess what I would say to that, just is like one weird thing about this story, it breaks in January 1998. Later that year, you have the impeachment, he's acquitted in early 99. There was this like sweaty exhaustion in the public with it. It became clear at a certain point that he would probably be impeached, but he would not be driven out of office. And there was just this fundamental deadening meaningless to the impeachment. You know, this is not a murder trial where the verdict is going to dramatically alter someone's life.

There's this fascination with Monica, a whole cottage industry around, you know, stalking or in the press and, you know, there's like mugs with Monica and all these, like, stupid jokes, and she's everywhere and she's so famous for so long. And the culture is sort of pretending it's tired of her. And yet the late night jokes keep going and going and going. The political process in Washington, you know, as you read about it, it's fascinating. You start to feel, especially when the impeachment hits the Senate, you know, Dachal and Lott just sort of want to manage it to a quiet death, you know. So I guess when I thought about the impeachment recently, I felt an echo, you know, it felt like hard to sort of take those things.

in good faith. I don't know. Clinton was the first elected and president ever impeached. At the end of the impeachment, he was still incredibly popular. And so what does that mean going for? What does impeachment even mean going forward, you know, after that? You know, I mean, that's, our legislature is going to take its cues from those polls, obviously. They're not going to drive out of president people like or people in their party like more accurately, you know. So I think I thought about that as that happened, but they're also two very different presidents, too very different people that answers your question, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's such a different situation. But I do think that what you're able to really convey is also this relationship between these two women,

which is you really get to see what this relationship is like in a way that I thought was really interesting. When you listen to the tapes, what were the revelations you had that you didn't come into it with? Because there are two people in a very lonely moment in their life. Of course, Linda Tripp knows she's taping. Monica doesn't, so that it informs everything. But there are moments you feel that that clearly moments of being hours on the phone with a friend is keeping you company where just talking about even the mundane details, you feel whatever was a sort of like typical workplace relationship has been taken to sort of a bizarre place, you know, to talk to someone that much on the phone. I think I was really struck the pain Monica was in at that time. You know, this is late 1997. The relationship with the president began in late 95. So it had been a very challenging time. And, She had been through a lot. And when you're in a thing with the president of the United States, you can't call him. You can't go to his house. You have to sit into the 90s. You have to sit in your apartment and wait for a call. And that's not good for anybody. And you feel that. I was really

struck always by how Linda Tripp speaks in her voice, her sort of like sarcasm, her knowingness. I detected, I think sometimes all that was covering up, which suggested like a humanity to me. Sometimes the tapes are really funny. Sometimes they're really painful. Sometimes they're really uncomfortable. and I wrote that end of the show. It is a bizarre and uncomfortable and intense relationship. You know, I always wrote believing that there was some kind of connection there. There was something real there. Linda Tripp said that later in her life.

The tapes are, of course, at the moment where the betrayal has begun and so it's turned. But I can hear that connection in the tapes too, just that, you know, the comfort, the moments of the friendship that used to exist. I wouldn't have written it if I felt like there was nothing there. But it's profoundly uncomfortable in that regard because of what Linda's doing in those tapes. It's a really uncomfortable document and deeply, deeply fascinating, you know. Oh, yeah. I mean, the show is just incredible.

I mean, it's moving and it's just great. So thank you so much for coming on and talking to us. It was great. Well, thank you so much. Like for having me, guys. Thank you for watching it. Katie Hobbs is Arizona's Secretary of State and a candidate for Arizona's governor. Welcome to New Abnormal, Katie Hobbs.

Hi, thanks for having me. I'm very excited to have you. And we're hearing a lot about your state and not all of it is good. Unfortunately, yes. The Republican leadership in our state has put us back in the national spotlight in a bad way. We're trying to change that. But yeah, no, it's not good. So you're the Secretary of State right now.

And you are, where are you in this Cyber Ninja's recount cluster? Well, I'm as far away from it as possible. since you are Secretary of State, you have this election. I mean, what's your role in, and where is it now? Yeah, no, that's a great question. And to be honest with you, you know, my office has been out front sort of fighting against this, because it's, you know, it's not a real audit. It's going to continue to sow doubt in what was a historically secure election that saw widespread participation. We've intervened at every place that we could. We intervened in an early on lawsuit in which the courts forced the so-called auditors to allow reporters in,

to allow official independent observers in, as well as disclose their procedures. And throughout this process, we've been watching what's going on and alerting folks to the problems that we've seen. And our office put out a report, which you can get at a Z-SOS.gov, that goes into depth about all of the problems that this whole exercise has been plagued with. That really undermines the credibility of what's been going on. And so at this point, they're supposed to release their report. We have no idea when that's coming because they've delayed it. Did they ever find the bamboo fibers? That is what everyone's waiting to find out in this report that we don't know where it is. It's so interesting to me because you're a state with two

Democratic senators, lots of elected Democrats, and then some of the craziest Republicans known to man. I mean, how did this happen? I wouldn't accuse the Republican leadership of being actually strategic in what they're doing. And now in the legislature, the Republicans have the narrowest margins they've had in decades. And we're seeing the worst kind of overreach and power grabs that we've seen in a long time. And, you know, a lot of it is just fueled by the fact that they don't like the outcome of the last election and we want to make it harder for folks to vote. So you You have, what's interesting to me is you have a Republican governor who I think of in my mind as not as crazy as some Republican governors, right?

Like he's, you know, he's not quite a dissantis. But he's done a lot of stuff with the, didn't he go in there and make it harder for you to supervise elections? Yeah, he certainly signed legislation in which the attorney general and the legislature were trying to hamstring my office, make it harder to do our jobs, and didn't intervene to try to remove those provisions and sign them into law. Yeah. So even the quote unquote good Republicans are ultimately anti-democracy. Yeah. I mean, and the governor's in a position where he knows that this so-called audit and everything are a bunch of bogus. And he refuses to call it out. And I think,

you know, the fact is that the elected leaders in our state, whether by direct participation or just not participating are continuing to promote these faulthoods. And that's really why we need a change in leadership in our state. Yeah. Now, talk to me about your running for governor. Talk to me about your decision to do this. And also, I mean, this is a big move. Yeah. I mean, we're at this moment in Arizona where people are ready for new leadership.

leadership that's going to work on real issues, not rehashing the 2020 election over conspiracy theories and fake controversies. And I'm ready to get to work for Arizonans and deliver transparency, accountability, and results. And from every indication that we've gotten since launching the campaign, Arizonans are ready for that kind of leadership too. I've proven that I can get the job done as Secretary of State, and I'm ready to do that as governor. And folks can join me at katiehobs.org. Do you feel like, I mean, is this going to be a tough race? It seems like these Republicans are not so happy when they lose. Absolutely. Every race in Arizona, we're a battleground state. That means every race is a battle. And even though the governor's seat is open, we probably have the best chance of flipping it

in 20 years. It's going to be a tough, tough race. It's why I got started so early. And we're working hard every day to make sure that we can get to work for for Arizona. With Cyber Ninjas, will we ever find out who is paying for that audit? American oversight has gone to court to request public records. Some of those records have been released. Their request, I believe, does include the financial information. I'm hopeful that we're going to get some transparent into that because this is really what we've seen, a grifting operation. And a lot of folks are profit off of it. At the expense, I think of the Arizona voters and the folks who are to undermine the integrity of the system. It's just sort of spectacularly crazy and scary.

Now, what happened in Texas, Texas on September 1st passed a bunch of really, really, really insane right-wing laws. I think the scariest of which was Roe. It seems to me like the stakes for Arizona are impossibly high. The stakes are very high. We have tinkered around the edges of making it harder for women to access reproductive health care, including abortion. And now with the Texas law in effect and the Supreme Court not moving to intervene, we're going to see a lot of copycat laws. And the organization that has pushed most of the anti-abortion legislation here has already indicated that they're planning a Texas style. here. And so with the governor's office still in Republican hands during this next legislative session, I am extremely concerned as are many women and abortion supporters across the state.

Yeah. I mean, it just strikes me that we're in for really a war with this. What do you see on the ground in Arizona? Are people scared about, I mean, I feel like the abortion law is one thing, but there's, you know, with this new permitless carry, they're making it harder to vote. I mean, are you guys scared that that that kind of legislation? And can it pass in Arizona or because it's just a slim minority? Are you going to be able to stop that kind of stuff? I think next legislative session is going to be one of the most challenging that we've faced in a long time because it is an election year. And we had some really controversial issues that looked like they weren't going to go through. And then the Republicans pulled together and held their one vote majority and got them through. And so I think we're going to see worse in the next session, whether it's abortion bills or voting rights bills or any number of other highly controversial issues.

Okay. That's terrifying and super upset. Katie Hobbs, Secretary of State from Arizona running. for governor, let's keep our fingers crossed. Thank you so much for joining us. Oh, thank you so much for having me. What's crazier than QAnon, more outlandish than Pizza Gate, and scarier than a Mexican getaway with Ted Cruz? The answer is what the American right wing has planned next.

Be one of the first to listen to Fever Dreams, the new podcast from The Daily Beast, tracking the conspiracy slingers, orange acolytes, and straight-up grifters pushing to retake power. Every Wednesday hosts Swin-Subis sang and Will Summer, checking in on the movement of the radical right. Head to the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts or your favorite podcast player to catch the first episode and get subscribed.

That's Fever Dreams, which you can subscribe to wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Jesse Cannon. Hi, Molly Jong Fast. So, what's going on? I'm just, you know, another day of fuckery. That is correct. So I heard somebody penned a little missive. Yes, you will remember the former.

guy with his implanted wig, which is a delightful red color. I actually forgot about the implanted wig. I'm the cue for reminding. It's right. One of the best pieces ever, Ashley Feinberg, right, where she talked about that implanted wig. So I know that you'll be shocked. I'm going to read Trump's praise of Confederate General. Or I think it's better to say Confederate loser.

Yes. Robert E. Lee is considered by many generals to be the. greatest strategist of them all. Now, I just want to point out, he lost. So wouldn't you be, if you're a loser, are you the greatest strategist of them all? I do a lot of work as a strategist. If our strategy fails, I don't get hired again. President Lincoln wanted him to command the North, in which case the war would have been over in one day. Again, all right, Robert Lee instead chose the other side because of his great love for

Virginia, which is, okay. What? And except for Gettysburg would have won the war. All right. I just want to take a moment here to unpack this for a second. He's a loser. He did not win the war. And I think fundamentally, Donald Trump feels that he has to defend every single racist, right? Every bad guy, Trump is like, Ashley Babbitt, you know, you broke into the Capitol building. Perhaps I should defend you. But my favorite thing is that he says that we should have had him for strategizing Afghanistan because, you know, a guy who can't win his home state of Virginia on his own ball fields really, really would have taken care of Afghanistan. Well, I mean, it's just the whole fucking thing is completely ridiculous. And for that, I say, fuck you, Donald Trump. Well, mine is another returning chip.

It's one House Minority Leader, Kevin McCarthy, a very, very dumb man. Reporting from the Daily Beast Aswan Supisang and Sam Brody and Matt Fuller shows that, guess what? Kevin McCarthy made a pledge after January 6th that, quote, unquote, we will run our own investigation. Why was the Capitol so ill prepared for that day? And what have we done to make sure it never happens again? Would it shock you at all, Molly, to hear that they've done absolutely no work on making that happen? No, it does not. They put Louis Gomert in charge.

Well, speaking of the stupidest members of Congress, Louis Gomer's main competitor, Madison Cawthorne, even was just saying that they're already working on another January 6th. So it's not shocking that they're not doing anything to make sure it doesn't happen again because they kind of want it to happen again. Yes, they have a thing coming up next week. Oh, yes, I forgot the assembly of the stupid on the 18th, yes. Right, and they're protesting for the Jan 6, which is not six people, but the Jan 6. Those badly treated prisoners like the QAnon shaman who couldn't get his organic food.

Well, how dare we punish people who commit crimes? You know, it always strikes me that they always want swift justice for some people. Exactly. But not theirs. Anyway, so, yeah, I say fuck you to all the GOP who, of course, is sitting on their asses through this because they don't want to protect democracy. They know that their time is running out and they're going to do everything they can do. protected. Exactly. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast.

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