The Daily Beast Podcast - How Chasten Buttigieg Gets Revenge Against Right Wing Bigots

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

Chasten Buttigieg is no stranger to hate. He joins this episode of The New Abnormal to share with Danielle more about his upcoming memoir, “I Have Something to Tell You―For Young Adults,” and reveal his secret to handling anti-LGBT hatred and attacks, from conservatives like Ron DeSantis and Tucker Carlson to right-wing trolls on Twitter. Later on this episode: Andy interviews Maggie Tokuda-Hall, the children’s book author who refused to let Scholastic censor her book, “Love in the Library,” which tells the story of how her grandparents fell in love in a Japanese internment camp during World War II. Plus! The hosts address the right’s latest attempt to defame President Joe Biden and point out a big loophole in DeSantis’ latest anti-trans healthcare bill. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. Our goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. What an excellent show we have today.

Chastin Boodin judge joins us to talk about his memoir for young adults. I have something to tell you, as well as if it really does get better. Then Maggie Takuda Hall talks about her children's book, Love in the Library, and her grandparents falling in love in an interment camp, and Scholastic's attempt to censor it. But first, let's have some fun. So, Danielle, another week, another. another insane bill out of the state of Florida. It is, I will read just the headline from the New Republic. It's now legal in Florida for doctors to deny health care to anyone if they feel like it.

And in case you think that that headline is overblown, the actual wording of this bill that was signed into law on Thursday by Meatball Ron DeSantis, the wording of the law is a health care provider or health payor has the right. to opt out of participation in or payment for any healthcare service on the basis of a conscience-based objection. In other words, if they have determined that they don't think a particular surgery or a particular treatment is moral or follows their religious beliefs, under this law, they can refuse to provide it. And it seems pretty obvious. What this is aimed at, it's aimed at withholding treatment, withholding surgery from trans people, etc. Also under the law, they cannot face consequences

and they do not have to refer a patient to someone that will provide the care. So here we go. Doctors are now in Florida, at least under state law. They are now free agents and can withhold services. What's wild to me about Ron DeSantis is that for such a small tiny man who needs to wear heels, He embodies so much fucking hate that everything that he creates, I want to ask regular Floridians. In all of the pieces of legislation that have gotten national headlines that Ron DeSantis has put out since his election, how has it bettered your life? What has he fucking offered regular people in Florida that has made their lives better? That is either lowered prescription drugs, that has put more food on their table,

that has made their dollar stretch further, that has given them the ability to get better jobs, to get better schooling. Nothing that this fucking man offers that state is about improving it. And so it is just, it's kind of this insane place

where, you know, polling came out today that shows that in a head-to-head matchup against Donald Trump, the twice impeach 34-time indicted, now liable for sexual abuse, a former president of the United States, he would be trounced, I think, like, by 50 some odd points. And not only do national Republicans not like him when he got the cold shoulder when he went to

Capitol Hill on his little, I guess, recon visit. But like, I don't think that people in Florida like Ron DeSantis, I think that they believed that they were getting one thing and then he did like a rope a dope-a-dope. Just switch it up at the end. Because everything that he is putting his mind, his effort and his administration towards is about harming the people that you don't like. And, you know, news flash for Republicans, just causing more harm and oppression doesn't make your life fucking better. And that to me is going to be what the winning campaign for Democrats needs to look like at the state, local and national level. Yeah, I guess the only thing I would say is there was a poll, I think last month that showed that he has a very high favorability rating

in Florida among GOP voters anyway. They was close to 60%. Apparently for 60% of Florida Republicans owning the libs is all they want. Well, it's basically an anti-gay, anti-trans agenda. I mean, that's what it is at heart. And somehow that is what they want in a governor. I think nationally, you may be right, at least based on the polls. Although, again, I don't know if those polls go to Desantis's positions on things, or if they just go to the fact that he seems like a creepy little man that doesn't sort of radiate likability or anything like that. So it may just be personal that people see him and they're like, I don't like this guy.

Who knows? But all I know is you could literally, under this bill, you could have a doctor who thinks that premarital sex is immoral, and they could refuse to treat a patient who checks off that they are sexual active and they're not married. It's an insane bill, and we were talking about this beforehand and Daniel, you brought up a point that they can pass this law all they want and say that the doctors, you know, can't be sued for it, but that don't make it so, does it? I'm not an attorney, but I would have to believe that you have more than enough to have a case against any doctor insurance company. Like, I know that Ron DeSantis likes to believe that Florida is in its own bubble of a

swamp, but it's not. It's a part of the United States of America. And there are certain groups that we don't allow continued discrimination against. Because one of the things that is not lifted up in his bullshit law is the fact that, oh, are people of color? Are they also lumped into this anybody that you don't like? Are women lumped into this new law of people that you don't like? So you talked about premarital sex. Well, if I'm an ambulance, if I am an EMT and I'm called to a site of somebody in medical distress and that person is black and, well, I don't like black people and I don't want them in my ambulance.

So I guess I just drive past them and move on. I'm covered. I'm good. That's like beyond Lord of the Flies. Like I don't know what Ron DeSantis is hoping here. Like again, you're hoping to hurt trans and gender nonconforming people. You're hoping that the residual hurt will probably land on black people and other people of color and women who have the audacity to want autonomy over their own bodies. And I'm telling you, like, regardless of all Republicans saying like, oh, Ron DeSantis is our guy, that's not what this entire state is made up of.

And these attacks essentially ruining higher ed in Florida as well on top of K through 12 education. I don't know what Florida looks like in the next four years, eight, you know, or 12, but it's going to be a fucking disaster. You know, it'd be interesting to see what happens if a bunch of doctors decide they are not going to treat Republicans. Oh, oh. I would like to see how long this law stays on the books if that happens. Oh, interesting. What an idea.

If the bill itself does not define moral or ethical, and if you have an ethical belief that Republicans are ruining the country, I guess under this law, you could decide that you are not going to treat Republicans or you are not going to treat transphobes or, hell, you're not going to treat white people. Okay. You're not going to treat men. It's clear what they want from this bill, and that's to further oppress and abuse already oppressed and abused minority populations. But there's no language in there that says it can't be turned around on them.

And look, I'm not advocating for doctors to turn down patients based on their political beliefs. I'm just saying, hey, I think you can now. Well, I guess that medical forums in Florida, where you go in and you normally check boxes of whether or not you have allergies, what your previous medical history will be, I guess that you can add a box on there that says, are you a Democrat or a Republican? Or, you know, an independent, like, oh, do you support equity and justice for all people or just a select group? Like, let's just start adding to the form. And then based on that, I guess doctors can make whatever choices that they want down there. And who cares about your Hippocratic oath to do no harm? Who cares about your licensing?

Because, you know, again, this does not bar people from suing their medical providers and winning because there are actual laws outside of the state of Florida. There are licensing boards that, you know, so I just, I don't, you know, I don't know, but like I really do think that more attention by the Biden administration needs to be paid to what Ron DeSantis is doing to the state of Florida because unchecked, this will become the law of the land where a domino effect will occur in the same way that all of the anti-trans laws began in Florida and now they're in nearly half the states. You know Greg Abbott is looking at this and going, damn, why didn't we think of that?

I completely agree. If this is allowed to stand, this is going to keep growing. Speaking of things that are allowed to stand, there may be a problem for the Republicans in finding someone to take the stand. See what I did? Oh, I do. House Oversight Committee Chairman James Comer, who is hot on the trail of Hunter Biden and the Biden crime family, says he has unbelievable evidence that Joe Biden has committed illegal

and unethical acts. And I guess a lot of this came from an informer, a quote-unquote whistleblower. And Comer was on with Maria Bartaromo on Fox News or Fox Business. I don't know which one. I don't really care. And was asked, where is this informant? To that, Comer replied, Unfortunately, we can't track down the informant. We're hopeful that the informant is still there. The whistleblower knows the informant. The whistleblower is very credible. I sort of hate the expression you can't make this up because you can always make this up, but this is bizarre. I mean, you know, this is a few good mention. This is Markinson is in the wind stuff where it's just they have this guy who supposedly is going to, he's going to blow the lid off the Biden crime family.

And by the way, oh, we can't find him. Is his name Casper? Like I just like they're just, everything is a figment of their imagination. And just so we can point out directly for folks, Newsweek, where, you know, version of this story is, says also, quote, the documents released Wednesday by the committee provide no evidence that President Biden was ever directly involved in the alleged schemes or even the payments in question resulted in tangible impact on U.S. policy, end quote. So once again, their Benghazi light is proving to do exactly what Benghazi 1.0 did, which was nothing, which was

waste tax dollars and time. And this is doing the same thing. With all of their investigative tools, they are finding nothing. And then, oh, their major star witnesses that's supposed to burst into the committee hearing and say, I found the document along with the laptop magically disappears, or maybe they never had them in the first place, because everything that the Republicans do is utter bullshit. Yeah. And it gets even better because Comer, went on to say that nine of the 10 people that they've identified as having this knowledge about the Biden's, he said they're one of three things. They're either currently in court, they're currently in jail, or they're currently missing. So it sounds like a real murderer's row. But of course, the sort of

implication here is that they're being silenced. They're being silenced, Danielle, by the deep state and by the Biden crime family, because this is what organizations like the Biden crime family do. it's not in any way what something like the Trump family would do, but it is absolutely what the Bidens would do. I mean, the Trump family doesn't disappear them. They just send their minions via social media to go and attack, threaten, and send those people into hiding. Like, that's what the Trump family does.

And also, you know, their grift is super real because how much money did, oh, what's his name? Ah, Jared Kushner, get from the Saudis right after Trump left the White House? What was it? Was it $2, $200, $2 million? Oh, that's right. It was $2.1 billion. So, miss me with your bullshit. Yeah, I mean, look, the whole thing is insane. It will always be insane. And it's just, this is what they are spending their time doing. This is what the head of the House Oversight Committee is spending his time doing. Because the Republican Party is just, just at this point, it's the go on Fox News and make wild accusations party.

I hope they find a better name for themselves than that, because that's a little unwieldy. But that's what they are. I don't even know what the acronym would be for that. They're just one giant fucking circle jerk. So meanwhile, while James Comer is going on Fox News to make up stories about the Biden crime family, we have a bunch of far-right lovelies, very, very good people, called Patriot Front, members of a group called Patriot Front. Patriot Front, carrying shields and drums and wearing some kind of white mask. And they marched on

Washington. They marched down the National Mall. They are not good people. I think it's fair to say. They are not very good people. These are far right white supremacist, neo-Nazi types. And they are now marching in uniform down the streets of Washington, D.C. If we had actual domestic terrorism laws, If we were able to label groups that purport white nationalism as terror organizations, then you wouldn't be able to march on the Capitol. Like, that's just number one. Why do these white men cover their faces? Because they are oftentimes, what we have found through history, judges and doctors and police

officers and members of the military. And so they are so big, bad, and brave, so about that life, that they need to go on Mother's Day weekend, which makes me believe that they are a group of incels, because you wouldn't have a girlfriend or a wife and be like, honey, I'm going to storm the capital, you know, fix yourself something for Mother's Day weekend and just go off. And all of these groups and their names, Patriot Front, you know, is a front to pay,

it's in a front to patriotism. You're not a patriot. You don't believe in the flag. You believe in a burning cross. You don't believe in the Constitution. You believe in cult antics. Like, it is just, this is the thing that gets me to

about Democrats is that we have seated these words, patriotism, freedom, family to these far right, radical, fascists and allow them to move forward with it. Like when they are removing the flag pin but putting on AR-15s,

when these people are referred to good people on both sides, not one Republican in the House signed on to the proclamation against white supremacy because they didn't want to offend their base. Like until we start looking and naming these groups as terror organizations, they'll continue to be looked at as if they are a group that has a, you know, an alternative ideology that has merit and it does not. Yeah. For those who don't know, Patriot Front, they believe that their ancestors conquered America

and bequeathed it to them. According to the ADL, they define themselves as American fascists or American nationalists who are focused on preserving America's identity as a European, American one. So we all know what that means. The funniest part of this is every time one of these things happens, we have to get people saying that it's a false flag. And so, of course, there are now people on the right saying that the marchers look suspiciously like feds.

And here's a great quote, all a little too uniform to me to be authentic. So you're telling me that fascists don't look uniform. That's what this person is saying, that there is no way this could be a fascist group because they're all wearing the same clothes and all have a similar look. That is a really, really interesting take. And I'm not sure I can top it. I mean, because the, what? The Nazis, like, we confuse them because they, they dressed like, you know, punks.

Like, I'm so, like, I'm so confused. Isn't the whole, isn't the whole steeds about uniformity and conformity? The KKK, like, they didn't have a diversity in the coloring of their fucking hoods. They were all white. This can't be a wisy pharmacist group. There's no diversity. There's no label here. It's not off the runway.

Shut the fuck up. It is unbelievable. I will say there was one somebody wrote on Reddit. The fact that there are no morbidly obese people among the crowd is a dead giveaway. I was like, well, okay, you might be right about that. But that's an interesting thing to say about people I would assume you like. Folks, I am so excited to welcome. Welcome to the new abnormal.

Chastin Buttigieg, who is the author of a new young adult book entitled, I Have Something to Tell You. And it is about acceptance and self-love and your own journey of coming out and the kind of village that you were able to create in order to make the courageous decision to come out. Chastin, I want to start off with the fact that there was a time in the beginning of the early 2000s where a campaign was started. entitled It Gets Better. It Gets Better was created in response to a rash of suicides of LGBTQ youth at the hands of being bullied in their schools, whether it be by children or by administration. Come out with this campaign, tell them that it gets better because we wanted to believe that it did, that if you just make it to, you know, adulthood as a queer person, ta-da, life will be, you know, kind of rainbows and sparkles and things will be great. Fast forward now to a decade plus later, things don't seem better. Just give me your opening thoughts on where we were and where we have backslid to. Yeah.

Well, my book doesn't come out for two weeks. I hope it hasn't been banned yet, but I am under no illusions of the people that we're dealing with. And especially, you know, given the fact that multiple stories are being banned with LGBTQ characters or by LGBTQ authors, I very much am aware. of the landscape that we're dealing with. And I know what you're saying about it gets better. I remember when I was a kid, I thought it was such baloney, right? Like, what do you mean it gets better?

Because from where I'm standing, I'm getting pushed into the lockers being called the F word. You know, I'm watching my religious friends and hearing things in youth group, in 4-H, in school from my peers, that, you know, gay people are a disease, gay people are disgusting. You know, all we knew growing up was that gay people were to be othered and ostracized. And harmed. Right. And harmed. Yeah.

So when people would say it gets better, I didn't know how to believe them. And by writing this book, it is certainly my goal to help younger people understand that it does get better and to take a deep breath and examine that it actually did get better. It got a lot better. And because it got better, a lot of people are trying to make it worse. Because people started coming out of the closet, because we were granted things like marriage equality, because many of us are working to create a world in which trans people can exist safely and openly, because we have gotten more people on board with this idea of inclusion, the people who are afraid of that are trying very hard to make it worse.

It is because it got better for some of us, not for everyone, right? Right, right, right. What's the end destination for better? But it was getting a little bit better. And I think because more people got to maybe take, a peek at or feel the other side of inclusion, now you have an entire political party who, rather than focusing on making life easier and better for people, are honing in on very, very vulnerable people, especially youth, to try to make it worse because it is more advantageous

for them to do that than the real work of legislating and making life better in this country. I think about the fact that, you know, teachers who are fleeing the classroom, as you are a former educator as well, fleeing the classroom because they're afraid. Librarians. We're attacking librarians and charging them with criminal conduct for providing a book. And so when I think about the fact that your book comes out in two weeks, and right now in Florida, Ron DeSantis' quote unquote, don't say gay bill, has now been extended all the way to 12th grade.

And we know that he is using this and the domino effect that has come from this passage of the initial legislation and now passage of this next piece. The domino effect has been, oh, it's parents' rights. It's parents' rights, Chaston, to say what I want my child to learn and not to learn. What do you say to that very false narrative that they have created and frankly, which has gotten people elected like, the governor in Virginia to say it's parents' choice. And parents should have this responsibility. What do you say to that as a parent yourself and a former educator? Yeah, well, your parents have always had the right.

And I think there are a lot of teachers in this country who are, you know, taking a step back and looking at this argument saying parents, you know, parents should have a voice. Parents should be able to know what their kids are learning. You have always had that right. And I know what it's like to hold parent teacher conferences and have one, two parents come, where I wish you, I wish more parents were involved. I wish more parents wanted to talk to me about what we're reading, what we're studying, and how I could use their help in the classroom.

But parents have always had that right. Nothing is being taken away from them. And I certainly have benefited as a teacher having those conversations with parents who have had, you know, concerns about certain content in the classroom, whether or not they wanted to be interested in the books that we were reading and why the books were selected. I remember having a professor of English whose kid was in my class. and they just wanted to know why I chose the books that I chose.

And I really liked having that conversation. But parents have always had that right. And as a teacher and as a parent, I know that I would never put my kid in a position where something would be age inappropriate. And as a teacher, I certainly would never wish to choose something that was age inappropriate. Teachers are professionals.

They are educated, highly skilled professionals who are not there to push an agenda. They're there to raise the next generation of American citizens. So reframing this attack as parents' rights is false. Right. Because the right has always been there. Teachers have always wanted the input from parents, whether it's helpful or not sometimes, right? Because I know some of us are used to some of the helicopter parents.

Yeah, yeah. But we have always wanted parents to be involved because we only have your kid in class six, eight hours a day, you know. And we need your help at home continuing that education. But I think it's a way to, of course, restructure and argument to make. people feel like something has been taken from them. And in fact, it's been there all along. What do you think about in your book, I have something to tell you? You know, that is oftentimes how we, as queer people, when we are coming out, we begin the

conversation with, I mean, in my case, it was sit down. Yeah, exactly. And then it was sit down and then I have something to tell you. What harm do you think is being done right now? And what are you hearing, I guess, from young people, from parents about the fears that they have for their kids? Because I know for me, when I came out, you know, so many moons ago, my parents, their biggest fear was that they just wanted me to have all of the opportunities and love and life that they were able to have as straight people. Their initial reaction was one of fear for my safety. Right. Now we are seeing their fears actualized. And so what are you hearing from young queer kids that look up to you, that look up to Pete and families about how to navigate this really difficult time?

Yeah. When my mom finished reading this book, she called me and said, I wish I could have saved you from all of that pain. My coming out story, you know, had its bumps. I was so terrified and embarrassed and worried that I would. lose everyone and I would embarrass them that I ran away from home. But I actually had parents who picked up the phone and called me back a couple months later. So like, you need to come home. We will figure this out. They had no idea what it was like to be gay in America. They had no idea how to raise a gay kid. They had no idea what to do, but they knew that they loved me and they wanted to figure it out. And that's why I'm alive today. And now I hear that from other parents from the country. What do I'm so terrified. The one thing I will say that you can do right away if you're a parent is have the conversation with your kid

so that they don't spend, you know, like me, 18 years of their life, wondering whether or not you will love them should they reveal this truth about themselves. I could have benefited from a 10-second conversation with my parents where if they had said, sit down, we want you to know that we love you, we will love you no matter who you are or who you love.

There was always space in this house for you and you don't have to be afraid in this house. You know, we will always fight for you, etc., etc. imagine what that would have done for 12, 13-year-old me, but instead I spent 18 years feeling like I was going to be their biggest disappointment. This is a season for active allyship. An active allyship looks different for everybody, but for parents, you got to make sure

your kids know that you love them, and that requires having a conversation. I think a lot of allies assume that, you know, I love everybody. I stand up for everybody. But if you're not doing the work, you know, posting a meme on. social media doesn't help. Visibility is helpful. But in this season, we need you to go to school board meetings. We need you go to city council meetings.

We need you to push back. You can't let the burden fall on the shoulders of the people in that community. So this is a season for active allyship from non-LGBQ people as well. And I certainly understand why so many parents and teachers are afraid. And we have to find ways to show up for them. You know, I was looking at, I'm doing a book event in my hometown. in Traverse City of Michigan. And there's no P-flag chapter there.

And that's a great thing that parents can do. Join your local P-flag chapter. And if there's not one, start one so that at least you can find community amongst parents like you. You know, there's phenomenal resources through Glyssin for educators. But for all of us, I think we just have to take a moment and think about how am I actively showing up for my community or for the people that I love. And that can be time spent.

That can be dollars spent. That can be, you know, resources or privileges. spent, but it's got to be more than social media posts. Yeah. I want to switch gears for a moment because I think that oftentimes people assume that because you are a part of the LGBTQ community, that then you have a deep understanding about what it's like, for instance, to be trans, to be a trans American right now. And while we say, you know, with the umbrella term, there are attacks on LGBTQ youth and LGBT. LGBTQ people. Specifically, it is trans people, trans youth that are being attacked. And so within our

own community, there have been bias and discrimination. It's why trans people have always been the low-hanging fruit. We can attack them because they're not even, quote, unquote, understood within their own community. So what do you say as a gay man, as a gay person about specifically what is happening to trans people. And for those that say, well, I don't know a trans person or I don't understand this thing, quote unquote, what do you offer to them? Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I was campaigning around the country, it was really important for me to get that moment right, because I am a white, cis, gay man. I do not know what it is like to go through life as a trans person. I don't know what it is like to go through life as a black trans person, you know,

or any queer person of color. So instead, of pretending that I got it, I took a moment and I said, I want to surround myself with people who can help me learn and be a better ally to everyone in my community. I sought out opportunities to have those conversations. I reached out to people who could educate me on issues that I might not have been aware of or that I have never lived myself. When we're confronted with something new and different, we have a choice. Are we going to approach it with an open mind and an open heart, or are we going to surround ourselves with people who only look like us, pray like us, love like us, and think like us, and push everything else away? And I think what you have happening

right now, especially on the other side of the aisle, when you're confronted with something new, I wish that they would pause and put empathy ahead of culture wars. I had no idea what it was like to be a trans person. A couple of years ago when we're campaigning, it was so important for me to surround myself with people who could help me. And when you're presented with new challenges and questions about the existence and the health care of other people, I wanted to learn as much as I could because I cared about keeping people alive.

I care about the existence of other people. I care that I have a privilege that can be shared, can use this platform right now and talk about it, that some other people can't. So on the other side of the aisle, I wish that they would just put the culture down for a second, talk to a trans person, have a roundtable. When's the last time that you sat down, rolled up your sleeves, and in the classroom, as we said, turned your listening

ears on? Yes, listening ears. And like truly tried to empathize with the existence of other people who want nothing more than to just exist safely and freely in this country. And I certainly, you were right that there is also discrimination in our own, in our, you know, wider acronym. But what I'm trying to get other people to understand is that we are all part of this acronym. I think that the LGBTQIA plus growing acronym is actually 25 letters because we're everything but S. If you're not straight in this country, you are going to be lumped into a group of other people. And you have to stand up and fight for other people who are being othered because we're all on

the same side here. And if you have questions about other people, then you need to do the work and learn how you can be a better ally and also maybe just learn about the existence of other people. And if you have questions about trans people, a great place that you can start is research rather than fear, bigotry or hatred or, you know, piling on on social media. So I think a lot of people have, you know, some work to do. And unfortunately, we live in this season of fast evolving media and it is these people make a lot of money off of it, you know, they get their clicks off of it. They get their, You know, they're clickbait.

They fundraise off of it. And it's just fear. And so these are, we're talking about vulnerable youth in this country. Oftentimes in states where we might only be talking about two kids. Right. But we're creating legislation as if it's a, as if it's an army we're trying to combat. Yes. Chastin, with just the couple of minutes that I have left with you, you, Pete, your family, have been attacked over the course of, you know,

since you all stepped into public life. And the vitriol is getting worse. And I want to know how you think these days about our politics and about just our safety. And the fact that wanting to utilize, if it's a platform like mine, you know, with a podcast, if it is yours, like how we keep good people in the fight when the time seemed to be getting increasingly perilous. Yeah. When I talk to young people about this, you know, I say like, I'm a grownup and I still don't have it all figured out. Like I grew up with a litany of Tucker Carlson's. So I understand or I have felt, you know, for years what it is like to have your existence and humanity questioned, you know, for people to poke at you as by, you know, for simply existing. And when I talk to young people, I talk about how like, you know, I don't have it all figured out. I certainly can have my bad days. But my existence, the fact that I exist is a miracle because I didn't let them shove me back into the closet. The fact that you exist and that you're happy is a form of protest. So when I'm walking down the street with my kids and I'm pushing a stroller, I'm going to the playground and someone has something to say or, you know, some people on the other side of the aisle who don't know how to do their job.

So they're just on Twitter all day saying something, you know, like I love that you're so unhappy. because I'm happy. I love being a dad. I love this life. I love that I'm alive. I love that I made it. I made it out of the closet. I fell in love.

I got to become a dad. I've done all these incredible things in my life that I'm so, so grateful for. And my existence is a form of protest. For anybody in the queer community, the virtue of you being happy is a form of protest. And that's why for us, it is just important to live our lives openly

and happily. not only to show other people that you can have it, but to show other people that we're not going anywhere. I love that. I love it so much. I adore you. Chastin, and folks, the book is, I have something to tell you on acceptance, self-love,

and resources for parents and teachers. Chastin, Buttigieg, you're fantastic. And I wish you all of the look on a brilliant, and a brilliant, safe and joyous book tour. Thank you so much. Great to be with you. Maggie Tokuda Hall's Children's Children's book, Love in the Library, tells the story of her maternal grandparents, Tama and George,

two Japanese Americans who were forcibly relocated to a prison camp in Idaho after the attack on Pearl Harbor. It was published by a small house in 2022 and then was set to be licensed by Children's Publishing Giant Scholastic until they imposed a condition. Maggie joins me now to share the story of the book and what happened. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks so much for having me, Andy. So you've written this beautiful little book with fantastic illustrations by Yazimamore. and Scholastic approaches you about licensing it.

And all I kept thinking was you must have been so excited. And then you look at their offer and you discover what? Yeah, I was really excited. I wrote Love in the Library with the intention of it going into schools. And Scholastic has this kind of unique place in the market where they have direct relationships with schools. So it was sort of a dream come true. But then I read that their offer was contingent on me making some edits to the author's

note that included cutting an entire paragraph out that connected what happened to my grandparents to things that are going on right now. And they had also asked that I removed the word racism from the note altogether. It's just amazing. I read the book last night and then I got to the author's note at the end where you say, their improbable joy, they being Tama and George, does not excuse virulent racism. And then you referred to the deeply American tradition of racism. And it struck me that beyond the obvious fact that both of those statements are objectively true and anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or wants Americans to be ignorant, but also that removing them from the note would actually, it would be a disservice to the book. I mean, I'm so glad you agree with me.

Yes. Yeah, I think it would be a deep disservice to the book. My mother is a journalist and this is her parents. And so when I was drafting this book, I sent her a version of it and she was like, you need to be really clear that even though their story is really, romantic, the context for it is deeply unromantic and really upsetting. And that has to be front and center all the time. And I agreed with her. And so it became a real sort of guiding principle for how this book was made. And like you said, Yaz's illustrations are beautiful and also do a lot of really great work making sure that you never forget where you are. Absolutely. I think not only is it a disservice to the story, which has made more complex and more interesting with its setting, but it's a

real disservice to my grandparents and the other 120,000 Japanese Americans who were incarcerated with them to pretend like this wasn't something caused by racism, and also to pretend like it's something that only ever happened to them, that cuts their ties of solidarity to so many other communities. And so I was deeply offended by the offered at it. Yeah. And also to allow people to say, you know, oh, see, these camps weren't that bad. Here's these two people. They fall in love and got married. Yes, it's such a gross whitewashing of history. People did fall in love in the camps, and I've been collecting really beautiful stories from people since this book came out because my grandparents were not the only ones who met there, but they were there under incredibly

inhumane circumstances. There was a really great book that just came out also for children called Seen and Unseen by Elizabeth Partridge and Lauren Tamaki, and it compares how different photographers covered this. And there was a really great book that just came out. And there was a little bit of was one named Toyo who went in and he took all the pictures that people weren't allowed to take that Dorothea Lang and Ansel Adams didn't get to take or weren't interested in taking. And one of them was all the toilets lined up and there were no stalls. It was just a line of toilets. And that's what everyone had to use every day.

It was really dehumanizing gross infrastructure that made it clear that the government did not respect these human beings. And losing sight of that and telling their story without that is inaccurate. at best and cruel, like creating the circumstances in which this kind of cruelty can happen again at worst. Exactly. Okay, so you publicized this, that Scholastic wanted you to do this. It correctly caused a bit of a furor. Schoolastic apologized to you, offered to publish the book as is, and met with you a meeting that you said was wholly unsatisfactory. Why was that? I appreciate that they had the meeting with me, but I had three things that I was really looking for in the meeting,

was an honest recounting of what had happened because they kept telling me that what had happened was not company policy. And I was like, well, then what happened? Right? You have to be able to tell me that. And they were not able to tell me that. And I wanted to know how they planned to make sure that this didn't happen to other marginalized authors going forward. And their plan for that was very hazy around the edges. And I didn't understand like any kind of concrete, durable process change that they were talking about. It sounded a little wishy-washy. And then lastly, because I felt like this was the most most important point, because this is what it all comes down to, I wanted to know what they were doing to combat book banning, because that's what this was about. They were trying to court the audience

that condones and asks for book bans at the same time as kind of playing lip service to this need to tell, you know, Asian, American, and indigenous and native Hawaiian voices, right? Their answers to that were the most disappointing because they were basically like, oh, well, we provide annotations, and I asked them what that meant, and it basically means, like, the marketing copy that you get like good reviews or like blurbs. And for context, that's like available for free on an Amazon page if you go under book details. It's not a great resource offered by a billion dollar company. Right. And they also said they combat it with their curation. But since we were there because of a curatorial problem, I was pretty unimpressed. And so I told them in the meeting and I

I meant it that they had not earned my trust back. I couldn't let them license this book. I didn't believe that this wouldn't happen again. But that I really hoped that they continued to be public and forthright going forward because if they do make some kind of change, they deserve, like, that deserves to be celebrated. And we should be excited about that. Scholastic has direct relationships with, I've heard the number 90% bandied around of schools in the country.

They sell to entire states at a time. And so for them to really take this as a teachable moment to heart would be really meaningful if it happens. It just hasn't happened yet. First of all, I do want to say that I think wholly unsatisfactory may have been my words, not yours. I just checked on your blog and I did a search for holy and it didn't come up. Okay. I'm glad to hear that. I was like, ooh.

Okay. So how did they explain what happened here? And you brought up the book bands. So I was wondering, are they just cowed by people like? Ron DeSantis, who, let's be frank, probably would never let this book be in a Florida public school library regardless. Yeah. So is it sort of like, is it like, well, in the current climate, you know, is that where

they were going with this? I mean, that is explicitly what they told me. They said in this politically sensitive moment. Okay. That was what the original edit had included that language. And I can't speak for exactly what Scholastic wants. But what I can say is I was a children's bookseller for like a thousand years before I became a kid's book author.

And so I've done those school book fairs. Like that used to be a huge part of my job. Selling to the school market is tough. Like I hear them. It's where the rubber meets the road in a lot of ways. And so I think what happened is they have this company culture of wanting to support diverse voices, but the education wing of the company, which is separate from their own publishing part, right? It's really very sales focused, has to sell into school districts where these books are being

band. And I think they thought that they could thread the needle here. And I am of the opinion that you cannot. And that furthermore, you can't say that you support marginalized authors and diverse voices at the same time as trying to preemptively appease the people who would see us silenced. And in some cases, frankly, dead. Like, these are not people who I believe are a meaningful enough part of the market or even like an ethical part of the market that is worth trying to sell to at some point. Yeah, it kind of seems to me as if it's even more important to publish books like this given the quote-unquote current climate. Listen, I agree. I know. I know you agree. I wish Scholastic would take that to heart and maybe they will. As things stand right now, you are not allowing

Scholastic to license love in the library. No. And I really just at every stage have been like, please just give me an excuse to license with you. Of course. I would really like to do this. I would love to see this book in classrooms, that is what it is for. I want teachers to be able to contextualize it and to use it to have these bigger conversations about all kinds of things. It's such a great doorway in in so many ways. But I knew that I'm also standing as a proxy for a lot of other authors in this moment. It's not often that any one author gets to have a meeting with the CEO's Scholastic. And I took that responsibility really seriously and I did not feel like I could let it slide when it was not clear how this would never happen again. Yeah, look, it sounds like you have done the right thing here.

Look, as I said, I read the book last night, and I didn't want this whole interview to be about what happened with Scholastic. I want to talk about the book itself. So tell me what made you want to tell the story of your grandparents? I had actually never considered writing this as a children's book until early 2017 when President Trump took office and he used his absolute first executive order to be the Muslim or travel ban. And it was so. such an ugly and horrible moment where I felt like so many people our stomachs dropped and we realized he really was going to use his presidency to enact this kind of awful white supremacist agenda. And so I tried to think of what I had to offer kids in that moment that was unique to me.

And I realized we had this beautiful story in my family, not just about the incredible cruelty of those kinds of policies, but also the incredible resilience of the people who they victimize. I think sometimes that gets lost of how powerful we are. We are able to do things like fall in love in a place as hideous as Minidoka because the endurance of their spirit was just that great. And so that's what I wanted kids to be able to take away first and foremost from the story. So in the book, Tama works in Minadoka's library and George checks out far more books than he can possibly read because as we find out, it gives him an excuse to see Tama every day. I was just curious, is that part true to life? That part is 100% true.

That's amazing. The dialogue is the imagined part. Sure. It's such a rom-com moment, but, you know, it's also, it's just beautiful. Yeah, it's very sweet. It's been one of my favorite stories for my whole life because of that. It has, you know, the romance. It has the comedy.

Like, George was basically illiterate. Like, he was never a reader. That was never his passion. I have his copy of crime and punishment. And you can tell when you open it, it's never been read. It like still creaks open. It's very funny. And it's also set against this incredible tragedy.

And I think parents and teachers, sometimes we forget how brilliant and smart and resilient kids are. And we do them a real disservice when we shelter them from things that are more complicated. They're perfectly able to do it if we are there with them, if we give them the opportunity. to. And that's what this story has been in my life and what I hope it is for kids now. At the end of the book, you write that Tama wrote in her journal, The Miracle is in us, as long as we believe in change in beauty, in hope. This is something your grandmother really did say, wasn't it? It was. Toma was a really talented writer. And one of the things I tell kids when I present this in schools is that when she was a young woman and when she was my age and

she was trying to write, nobody would publish her because they all told her, nobody was interested in Japanese people. And it wasn't for lack of talent. It was just that the racism was so thick. Sure. And now I get to tell her story. So there is this possibility for change. Things have gotten better. We can still keep pushing. I don't know. That gives me a lot of hope. Yeah, absolutely. Also, at the end of the book, you mentioned that George and Tama had one child while they were still in the camp. That is also true to life. That is true. That was my Uncle Floyd. He was the first of five children. Wow. He was born with a lot of developmental problems and birth defects, and there's no way to prove it, but probably the very poor prenatal care she was given in the camps had something to do with that.

And my mother was their fourth child. Wow. That is amazing. The book is Love in the Library by Maggie Tokuda Hall. It is, again, it's just a beautiful little book that is great for kids. Maggie, thank you so much for coming on. And I hope that this book gets into as many schools as possible. I really appreciate that, Andy, and thank you so much for having me.

Danielle Moody. Andy Levy. How are you going to kick off this week of Fuck That Guy? Well, as everyone who listens to me knows, there's nothing more that I love than starting off the week with white supremacy. So we'll just keep that ball rolling. And my Fuck That Guy is not even the guy necessarily. Here's what I will say. It is the entirety of the Republicans and the right, because there is no far right,

to just the right, that has decided to anoint Daniel Penny, the man who has finally been charged with manslaughter for the killing, the choking death, the 15-minute choking death of Jordan Neely, a black unhoused man on a New York City subway. So after folks, a week of protests of people shutting down the subway station, of people condemning both Governor Hockel and Mayor Adams nonsensical statements on the killing of this man because apparently we don't need to care if somebody is unhoused and murdered in broad fucking daylight. But if it was not for the collective power of the people of New York City, Daniel Penny would have been able to just keep chilling at home, which is where the New York City police let him go after he killed a man on the

subway. So now, much in the same vein as Kyle Rittenhouse, another murderer that the right adopted and gave prime speaking to at the RNC National Convention in 2020, they have now decided to turn Daniel Penny into their new quote unquote hero. Ron DeSantis going so far as to refer to him as a good Samaritan like they did in the Bible. They're calling him the subway hero, but to make matters even more despicable and disgusting, the right has raised over two million dollars for his defense. An ex-Marine who saw fit to kill a man because he was bothering him on a subway, not causing anything other than maybe a nuisance. So that gives you the right to take a black man's life. But according to the right, this is who they make heroes out of. George Zimmerman,

Kyle Rittenhouse, the McCluskies, if you remember, that came on their front lawn. brandishing weapons at Black Lives Matter peaceful protesters, and now Daniel Penny. And look, I know that people don't have conscious, you know, anymore or like values or morality. And clearly something is definitely unwell with you if you kill a man in broad daylight. And then just go home and, I don't know, fix yourself a sandwich. But if I were that man, I would say thanks, but no thanks. I don't want to be labeled your right wing hero and murderer.

I'm good. I can handle my own defense and like move about my life. But the way that they are anointing him, so my fuck that guy, all of them, all of them, and to Daniel Penny, but he didn't raise his own money. But fuck that guy from him on down. Yeah, I would like to point out, Daniel, that the parable of the good Samaritan involves a man, a Samaritan walking down the road and coming across another man who had been beaten and pretty much left for dead and his clothes had been stripped. And the Samaritan put the guy in a chokehold. And a lot of people don't know that. They think the Samaritan help the guy and that that's where the phrase good

Samaritan comes from. But my understanding is he actually put the guy in a chokehold. Oh, got it. That makes sense. I thought you should know that. Yeah. Yeah. Their reading of the Bible is just real wild.

It's really interesting. Yeah. Andy, I don't know. If you got something to top this to start off the week. But please, who is your fuck that guy? I don't know if it tops it, but I'm going to stay on the white supremacist tip if that's okay. Oh, you know, it's the only tip I love. I know.

And I'm going to talk about one of the dumbest members of the House of Representatives, and that is Paul Gosar. And according to a new report from TPM, an investigation by new abnormal guest, Hunter Walker, I might add. One of his staffers has ties to a movement that's called The Growler. Roiper Army. And for those of you who don't know what the groopers are, first of all, I envy you. They're white nationalists. They like to use the Pepe the Frog meme, if you've ever seen that online. Nick Fuentes is a big groiper. They're just your run-of-the-mill bad white supremacists. According to Hunter Walker's investigation, Paul Gosar's digital director, a guy named Wade Searle is a quote unquote soldier for Nick Fuentes, who is, again, one of the leaders of this

Grooper army. If you said to me, which congressman would have a staffer who would be a groiper, I think I would actually guess Paul Gozer. By that measure, this is not a surprise. I don't even know how to put it anymore. Every day, it's just they let you know more and more who they are, as if it wasn't enough already. I don't think it's going to stop because it doesn't seem to hurt them. I mean, let's see what happens now if this guy gets fired, if Paul Goser gets reprimanded, if Kevin McCarthy basically does anything with his limp little gavel and says that this is not right. We're going to go ahead and cancel this guy and we're not going to whine about cancel culture because you are a member of Congress and having a digital director who is a member of a white supremacist,

quote unquote, army is not okay with us. But I'm not holding my breath as I never do. And I would not be surprised if absolutely nothing happens here and that this gets labeled as fake news or they're coming for you or whatever other asinine things they like to say rather than do the right thing. So my fuck that guy for today is Wade Searle himself for being a groyper and also Paul Gossar for giving this guy a job on Capitol Hill. Fuck both those guys. Fuck them all, honestly. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of The New Abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday.

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