The Daily Beast Podcast - How I Fear Trump Will Unleash ICE to Rig Midterms

Episode Date: February 26, 2026

Joanna Coles sits down with Massachusetts Gov. Maura Healey for a bracing conversation that moves from Trump’s State of the Union theatrics to what she calls a calculated effort to normalize chaos ahead of 2026. Gov. Healey unloads on the DOJ’s handling of the Epstein files, slams RFK Jr.’s vaccine rollbacks, and details how she’s battling ICE crackdowns, slashed federal funding, and what she warns could be attempts to “federalize” elections and intimidate voters with troops and manufactured fraud claims. As Democrats wrestle with generational change, leadership, and how to win back voters battered by affordability crises, Healey argues the real fight isn’t 2028—it’s protecting the ballot and delivering tangible results right now. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I think that what we have to anticipate is not only will we see ICE, we'll see every federal agency set out around ballot polling places to scare people away. I think it's important that we talk about what is actually being attempted right now by the Trump administration and that we have in place what we need to have in place to protect people's rights. I have confidence in state and local officials to do just that, I don't think we should underestimate the links that the president and the administration will go to come November. I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And we have a terrific conversation for you today with the governor of Massachusetts, where the civil war for the Democratic Party is playing out between progressives and I guess the more moderate wing of the party. And Governor Healy has all sorts of things to say about Donald Trump, about keystone.

own Cash Patel, about her former AG colleague Pam Bondi, about Larry Summers, who resigned from Harvard as we were having our conversation and about the security and the safety of the elections. Oh, and did I mention we got into RFK Jr. too and the safety and security of families who want to have vaccinations? No time to waste. Let's get into it. Governor Healy, thank you for joining us. And I know you're on storm patrol. We were due to do this in in person. And then, of course, you got stranded, organizing storm patrol. There was a bit of a storm last night at the State of the Union in many ways. I wanted to get your quick impressions of it. You know, honestly, it's what I expected. The president didn't talk about real solutions, real ideas,

any opportunity for realization, anything that was going to be actually operationalized, right? He's terrific at theater and invoking military heroes, the flag, sort of like using other people in the audience well to get applause, trying to get applause for himself. I mean, it's a show. It's theatrics. It's what Donald Trump does.

But right now, what this country needs is real, solutions, real ideas, real affordability ideas, real affordability solutions rather than the gimmicks that we see from him time and time again. So it was very empty. And, you know, frankly, I think in terms of a conversation with the American people about what needs to be done, how to deliver for people, and where this country needs to go, there was no articulation of that. because it's Donald Trump, I mean, I don't know what percentage, but a good percentage of it is just total fabrication, right? It does not reflect. It's completely detached from the reality that Americans are living. I mean, people can't afford rent. They can't afford housing. They can't

afford to pay their bills. They're struggling with health care costs. You know, they're just worried about their kids and their kids' future. And that's the reality. And it seems that everything he does and that his administration does, whether it's tariffs or taking away health care or driving away foreign investment and people from this country. I mean, he's making America less competitive. He's lessening our standing in the world. And he's not leading. You know, Joanna's governor, I spend a lot of time investing in the things that I think are going to make success for my residents, for my state. That's what a president should be doing. And of course, that's not what we see from Donald Trump. Well, we definitely saw a show. Did you feel the Democrats used the opportunity

as well as they might have done? In the chamber or in the response? In the chamber, in the chamber, in the chamber, assuming that people are watching it. You know, it's one speech. And I think that, you know, what you saw is people in the chamber who were registering the fact that they haven't turned over the Epstein files. You know, I thought that that was important. I mean, for all, all of his talk and the awarding of congressional medals and presidential medals and calling out of Olympians and you name it, right? I mean, like that was artfully done in a way to deflect any attention from the moment, which is the terrible economic circumstance of the vast majority of Americans. And then the games they're playing with the Epstein files and really the corruption of the Department of Justice and the fact that so many of our institutions that we count on to work are not working. are not delivering for the American people.

Okay, so let's stay on that because we're recording this on Wednesday lunchtime. And this morning, the news came out that Larry Summers, obviously a former head of Harvard, your old alma mater and bang in the middle of your state of Massachusetts, is resigning from Harvard. We know that Joey Ito, the head of Media Lab at MIT, also stepped down over his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. You're a former attorney general. How is it possible that these two brilliant men got caught up with Jeffrey Epstein? And how do you think the DOJ is handling it at the moment, run by a former attorney general of Florida, Pambondi? Yeah, I come to this not only as a former attorney general, but as a former prosecutor, I prosecuted human trafficking cases. I've spent so much time with victims and

survivors of sexual abuse and assault. And it is unbelievably sickening to me to see a former colleague, Pam Boddy, who I served with, turn a blind eye, literally turn away from survivors a couple of weeks ago at her hearing. It is disgraceful how the Department of Justice has conducted itself. There should be, you know, full transparency. By the way, this isn't rocket science. For anybody who has worked in investigations in cases, there's a way to produce information. There's a way to go through files. There's a way to redact. And this is not just incompetence. This is calculated, right, to continue to slow walk the production of information, which, you know, week by week we show is taking down any number of powerful people around the world. Right. So, you know, that's what this

is about. I think it's a very important issue. And, you know, I just credit there is more courage in these survivors than I see from people in the federal government who have the, I mean, I credit the Republicans in Congress who've come forward and been part of the demand for accountability. That's important. We should all be behind supporting transparency and justice for these victims of horrific crimes. then, you know, obviously those who are in the files as it comes to light, they need to be held accountable as well. It doesn't matter what party they're in. This is really bad behavior, really bad conduct. It is criminal in some instances.

We know already. We don't know the who, what, and where of every individual named in the files. But what was done, what Epstein did, you know, enabled by Galane and others, right? I mean, this is the perpetration of, you know, one of the worst abuses that I have seen happen in the world. And I was around for the Catholic Church clergy sex abuse scandal and, you know, investigated that as well. And I mean, this, to me, this, you know, this is on that scale or surpasses it. It's because every day that goes by, you see continued cover up by our federal government and the Trump administration. So you mentioned that Pam Bondi was a colleague of yours when you were both AGs together.

Are you surprised by her sort of transformation of the DOJ? Did you think that she might have more backbone? You know, I'm very, very sickened by it and disheartened by it. I mean, you know, these are serious jobs. And, you know, the reality is across that administration, it's just staff with people who are unsurious. They're unsurious. they are incompetent, or they're all about, I guess, in the first instance, the first quality is absolute fealty and loyalty to the president, you know, and that is not in service of this

country, that is not in furtherance of the oath that they all swore to uphold, you know? So, you know, meanwhile, you know, I think about the leadership that is happening. And thank God we have governors in states. Thank God I thought that Governor Spamaker did a great job last night, focusing, the attention on, is your life better under Donald Trump? Is he working for you? You know, every day I'm out there, I make any number of decisions as governor. And people can take issue with that. People can disagree with that. I get it. And I'm not always going to get it right. But I can tell you what. People can walk away understanding that I am trying my damnedest working my butt off for them. That's what

people deserve of their leaders, you know? And that's not what we see from this government. And I think that that's something that Governor Spamberger and shout out to women governors, women Democratic governors, and in the election of her, Mikey Cheryl, you know, that's what the focus needs to be on for the sake of this country. So you mention unsurious people. Another person that's come under the spotlight that I imagine you have strong opinions on is a man that we nicknamed at the Daily Beast and it's now stuck his nickname, Keystone Cash Patel, head of the FBI, seen quaffing beer and shouting with the American hockey team on Sunday and promising Donald Trump that he was going to deliver them to the State of the Union address.

And he delivered most of them, five of them stayed at home. What do you think of Keystone Cash doing that? Why did he need to be in Italy for that? He didn't. He didn't. You know, again, it's a joke. You know, these are folks who don't understand their job. They don't understand the mission, nor if they even understand.

are they capable of fulfilling it because they're on a different mission, which is to do whatever Donald Trump wants and make as much money on their own through all sorts of ways that will maybe come to know about later. There's no reason for him to be there. He's had the FBI. How many things can he and should he be investigating and overseen right now in this country? No reason for him to be in Milan. You know, I'm a hockey fan. I'm a huge sports fan. I love our Olympians. We had a lot of folks out of Massachusetts competing. So, you know, great to be a cheerleader. You can do that from where you are. And he has a job to do. The other thing that is just so infuriating to me at a time when Americans can't afford health care, they can't afford food, they can't afford rent,

they can't afford housing. He is flying on our dime, the taxpayer dime. And it's not the first trip that he's taken, right? So, you know, so many things problematic with that. But again, this is an administration that really is about the grift and the graft, the corruption. They're certainly not about doing their job. They'll make up ways to try to indict people. They've attacked political leaders. They launch really specious investigations, you know, under the auspices of fraud. They don't want to work with us as state leaders, as partners. You know, it's an entirely different agenda. When you say they don't want to work with you, how does that sort of manifest itself in actually

trying to run a state? Yeah. Well, it seems to me the relationship has been, and I'm speaking from the governor's office here in Massachusetts, and we've been at this for a good 250 years. I bragged that Massachusetts is where this country began, right? We gave birth to that back in 1775 on battlefields and conquered in Lexington. So we take great pride. I'm looking up at Sam Adams now, you know, one of the authors of the Declaration of Independence. He hangs in my office right now as portrait. And I just think about the role of government and the Constitution. And, you know, the federal government is there to support and act as a partner with states.

And what does this federal government do, done? They've taken away funding for food for our kids, for assistance for health care. I mean, when they took away stat benefits, I had to come up with ways to make sure that people were fed. When they took people off a health care, which 300,000 people in Massachusetts two months ago were going to lose their health care because of one big beautiful bill and what Donald Trump had done. And I had to come forward as a governor and find ways to make sure that coverage continued. They took away vaccines. Thank you, RFK.

We had to, I asked my public health commissioner to basically set up his own CDC and write a prescription for a vaccine for everyone in Massachusetts, and I got insurers to cover it. They took away funding for science and research, which, I mean, you know, Massachusetts, one in 10 R&D jobs in this. country are in Massachusetts, and these are jobs that power biotech and life sciences, also the defense industry. So where Donald Trump takes that funding away, I have to come forward and find ways to cover that and fund that. So that's what, you know, life is like right now dealing with the Trump administration. And it seems to me we should be working in partnership. You know,

I would love to see a joint effort at investing in education and workforce development in true energy independence. Instead, what I get from the Trump administration is they're going to increase people's energy costs by trying to take solar and wind off the table. So these are the things that are going on. Ice is a good example, too. I mean, I've taken strong action to stand up to ICE in Massachusetts. Why? Because my job is to protect public safety, to protect public safety of my residents. And ICE no longer is operating as a legitimate law enforcement agency. They're engaging in things that are totally illegal, rogue agents, and the worst of it is that our people are put in harm's way as a result. And so, you know, I've had to issue orders banning ice from churches and schools and health care centers.

And, you know, they're not allowed on state property. They can't use state resources. You know, again, these are actions we're having to take as states because we don't have a partner in the federal government. coming to say, hey, let's work with you on this. As a governor, do you have any sense when you're trying to deal with ICE of how many illegal immigrants there are in Massachusetts? Do you have data on illegal immigrants who are actually committing crimes? Of course we do. Have the federal government, has the ICE ever once come to us and said, hey, let's work with you.

Let's go after. Let's help us. Again, I was a prosecutor and attorney general. I used to investigate and prosecute and put people in jail for trafficking drugs. and guns and human beings. And normally, the way it worked is state and federal partners would work together. I used to work with HSI and FBI and ICE as AG. But that's not what this has been about.

And the data that we have just from Massachusetts alone, and I think it probably reflects what we're seeing around the country, the vast, vast majority of people they have picked up have not committed crimes. Okay? They're mothers who are now being taken away from their kids. their kids who are being taken away from their families. I mean, we've had people as young as 14 and 15 years old picked up here in Massachusetts. The stories are heartbreaking to say nothing of what we've seen with U.S. citizens being detained here and in other states. And obviously,

the shootings and the horrific killings of Renee Good and Alex Prettie are an example of just how off the rails this is gone. But I just want to be clear as a matter of law enforcement. and public safety, the way ICE acts, I mean, these guys are not trained, or at least the ones that we've seen out. And I think I saw recently that the majority of people actually in ICE are people who have been recently hired, right? Although interestingly, the two responsible for the deaths of Renee Good and Alex Preti, one of them had been there five years, one of them had been their 10 years. Well, sure. But, and, you know, part of it is what's the mission, you know, and now you have a pronouncement from the vice president and the administration saying there's absolutely

immunity for whatever they do. And, you know, they just haven't been, it's clear they're not trained. And then there are people there who maybe have been there a long time and had the training, but they've been put in a terrible, difficult situation by the president and the administration. And it's just not working. And, you know, if the president were serious, particularly with control of of the executive branch in both houses, isn't this the time for immigration reform? We talk about this a lot as governors. And there's no leadership.

What would you do? Because it's clear that the border and closing the border was a big issue, a bigger issue for the Democrats at the last election than I think Democrats realized. So how do you take what is an incredibly complicated conversation to have in America and reframe it to make it

a vote winner for the Democrats. Leaving aside the horror of, um, of masked men arresting women and children in the streets, what is the Democrats on the doorstep answer to how we handle illegal immigration? Yeah. Look, um, I don't think it's that complicated. And I speak as a Democrat who told President Biden years ago to close the border that there needed to be more controls in place. And that didn't happen. And what did he respond? When you, when you said that, governor, What did he say? You know, I don't know quite what the reasoning was. I think there was concern about litigation and certain groups bringing litigation.

But, you know, my point to him was, look, we need to have safe and secure borders. There needs to be an orderly way for people to come into this country. Okay? I agree with that. What I also believe is important is that we have a way to deal with the hundreds of thousands of people, millions, who are here and have been living here, Many brought as kids who have been doing all things right, you know, in the proverbial sense, going to school, paying taxes, raising families, you know, growing businesses. What do we do with them? And what makes sense?

We also, we know, have industries. And they're different in different parts of the state. Here, you know, in Massachusetts, we've got fishing industries and other parts. There's farming industries. Construction, by the way, is somebody who needs to build housing desperately in the state and, frankly, around the country. to bring housing costs down. You know, there's a real hurt to construction and housing construction as a result of these failed immigration tactics by the Trump administration, driving people, workers, literally taking them away. But we need safe and secure borders, and we also need a

sensible way to deal with people who are here, who are not documented, and need that path to citizenship. But what is the path to this, isn't it? I think that it was laid out before with the DACA program in terms of what people needed to do, creating that pathway, especially for our young people. To me, these are some of the most heartbreaking stories when I see kids who, you know, who have managed to find a way to community college or to school or to work. And all of a sudden, you know, they're taken out and sent back to a country that they've never known. they left when they were two months old, two years old. My point is this, Joanna, there's a way to do this.

There's a way to get people together and come around some solutions that make sense, that provide us to cure and safe border and also a path to citizenship for people who are already here, who are integral to our economy, who have become part of the fabric of our communities. What does not make sense is this mass deportation agenda that we see, which is the agenda of the Trump administration. I mean, that's the agenda around immigration right now. And I think it does a disservice to our economy. It does a disservice to families and our communities. And it does a disservice to who we are as Americans. Who we are as Americans. So let me ask you about another Massachusetts man. you mentioned public safety, and I'm thinking of our Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert Kennedy, Jr. and his attitude to vaccines, when you talk to people in Massachusetts, and I understand the Kennedys are a very prominent family there and a family that Massachusetts feels very proud of, what is their reaction to him and what he's doing with his plan to make America healthy again?

It's horror. I mean, they're horrified by it. I mean, this is why as soon as he took away vaccines, I said, no, not on my watch. If you're in Massachusetts, we're going to make sure that everybody has access to vaccines, whether they're childhood immunizations or things for COVID or RSV or what have you. We're going to make sure that's available. In the same way, when the Trump administration continued to find ways to take away access to abortion, and Nipipipristone, I said, But yeah, we're coming forward. I stockpiled Miffipristone. I think I have probably the strongest shield law in the country to protect patients and providers of abortion. When it comes to vaccines, it was clear to me. We just have to create our own CDC and make sure that we're manufacturing and distributing these vaccines. People want to have access to vaccines. You know, there's a reason that Massachusetts is number one when it comes to health care and health outcomes. We have the second highest life expectancy in the country. We have, you know, a real commitment to public health here. And so people were really negative on that. And negative on so much of what he's done,

particularly taken away health care from hundreds of millions of Americans. As I said, you know, at the end of the year, and just a couple months ago, they were taken away essentially by allowing those subsidies to go away, taking health care away from 300,000 households in Massachusetts. That's crazy. So I found some money to shore that up in the interim. But, you know, RFK, I thought the Kennedys are a special family here in Massachusetts. I was with young Joe Kennedy the other day at an energy event where we're, you know, supporting energy assistance and lowering energy costs for people. They've done great things, but I can tell you, RFK is over here. I thought New York was going to claim him. He's not really a Massachusetts, Kennedy. So Massachusetts is seen very much as a

litmus test for the civil war that's basically going on in the Democratic Party at the moment. You've got Elizabeth Warren on the progressive side. You've got Senator Ed Markey on the progressive side. Elizabeth Warren will be, I think, 78 this summer. Ed Markey. will be 80 this summer. You've got in Seth Moulton, a challenger to Ed Markey. What is the balance between experience and renewal of the party? I think it's great to see so many talented people in our party. It's a big tent, you know, and we have people who are older and we have people who are younger.

As I look out, you know, sure, there are a mass. There's a particular Senate primary. I got to tell you, I'm not particularly focused on that because we've got to do things to save our democracy, shore up affordability for Americans. I'm worried about how do I feed people? How do I build homes as quickly as possible to lower housing costs? How do I bring more energy in to the region to lower people's energy bills? And how do we make sure that in a country where the health care system seems to be broken,

how do we in Massachusetts forge ahead with something that actually work? for people. That's where my head is at. But I am struck by, you know, people talk a lot about 28, which, you know, I'm less interested in the punditry and, you know, who's going to be that candidate and what's going to happen because, you know, we need our eyes on the ball and focused on 26. Focused on their 36 governor's races, there are a number of AG races, secretaries of state. We need to focus on free and fair elections, given what Trump has tried to do already with normalizing troops on the streets and, you know, taking ballot boxes already, right? We need to do our work for 26. We need to take back the House and take back as much as the Senate as we can. And in doing so, you know, build, continue to build on the momentum that we saw earlier this year with the elections of Cheryl and Spanberger and Mimdani on what this party actually has to offer in contrast to what Donald Trump and the Republicans are not offering. Right. But isn't one of the reasons why the Republicans were so successful in 2024 that there is a sense of stagnancy in the Democratic Party? And there are a lot of people who have enormous amount of experience who've spent a lifetime in politics. And yet to your point, all sorts of things aren't working. Health care is not working. Immigration's not working. So there's a

an argument that there is a need for generational change, isn't there? And you see that in Massachusetts in terms of, you have two senators who are really up there in terms of age. You also see it in the neighboring Maine with Janet Mills, a fellow governor running for Senate. And if she, if she wins, she'll enter the Senate at 78. And I guess my question for you is, what can these older senators do in their late 70s or 80s that they haven't been able to do already. Well, Janet Mills, I mean, she was a killer AG. She's been a killer governor. She's done great things for her state.

And she will as the next senator in Maine. People of Maine need that. You know, look, I. Can I just revisit now, though? She'll be 86 when she steps, if she just does one term. So again, just asking you, what can you do at 86 or 84 that she couldn't have done as governor? And isn't there a point where I know she's been a very capable governor, but isn't there a point where you do have to relinquish power? I think it's for each individual to decide, right?

Really? Really? Well, it's for each individual to make up that decision. What I do think and what I see, though, is I see tremendous talent in the Democratic Party. Okay, so, you know, I think you're talking specific to Congress and the House and the Senate in particular. By the way, we've got a lot of young House members here, proud to work with Catherine Clark, who's the great whip. You know, there's a lot of talent and young talent, too, in the ranks within Congress and also within state legislatures that we've seen emerge and also certainly among state leaders, you know, if you're talking governors, AGs and the like. So, you know, to me, there's no question that the talent is there in the party.

And it's great to see more people step forward and run. And, you know, that will sort itself out. I do think that it's important to have new energy and new ideas, certainly, right? We want that for the health of our democracy, you know. We've got a president who's old. We had a president who was old. Right. And I was going to say that the sort of that I think,

there's an argument that a lot of democratic voters are viewing older democratic congresspeople or senators through the lens in which they saw Joe Biden that at one point didn't seem to matter that he was old and then it really mattered and arguably it mattered catastrophically. Yeah, I actually don't see that. I mean, I don't hear that or experience that at all. And I see like a lot of energy and vigor in the talent within the Democratic Party. I mean, you know, look at the, look at the governors that we have, right? Look at the Democratic governors that we have. I know all of us feel older every day given the strain and the pressures that we're under.

And we've all aged in our own way. But, you know, these are all folks in their 50s, you know, who are out there leading, delivering. We've got Democrats. And I see, you know, people younger in Congress and in state legislature. So I just think there's a great bench there. And I think you see people tapping into that, you know, look at the elections of Spanberger and Cheryl. Look at the mayor in New York. Look at the other people who've won in these recent seats.

But I don't think it's, you know, I understand that age versus youth sort of, you know, discussion. And certainly I think we're having that discussion because we had Joe Biden as president and because, you know, we now have Donald Trump in. And, you know, that, to me, what's important is we've got so many young and vigorous people out there. Also, do not throw out the benefit of experience. I want Janet Mills as senator in Maine. She knows what to do. She knows how to deliver. She knows how to get things done.

And so, you know, I don't think it's all or nothing when it comes to that. What about your own state? Your endorsement as governor for Ed Markey will be very valuable. he'll be 80 going into the Senate. Do you feel comfortable endorsing someone who's 80? I haven't taken a position in the race. I haven't taken a position in the race. No, no, that's why I'm asking you

because he'll be 86 when he leaves the Senate. You know, I'm going to look, as I say, you know, I think, you know, in a Massachusetts primary in a Massachusetts election, I think that, you know, we're fortunate. We've got people who know how to lead and who know how to get things done. I'll, you know, take that into consideration.

We'll deal with endorsements, support, you know, at some point. But right now I've got to say I'm really focused on how do I build more homes? How do I lower people's energy costs? How do I fix health care and lower health care costs in this state? It's not to say, you know, races aren't important, but, you know, I'm interested in the competitive races, places, you know, where we need to go red to blue and take back the house and take as many Senate seats as possible because clearly we need a current. Congress that is willing to do what this Republican-controlled Congress has not done, which is to be the adult and to put guardrails on this president and his administration. That's what we need. Right. And the loss of the House of Representatives and the loss of the Senate is what makes me ask you the questions about,

is it possible that the party needs a new generation and how can you justify endorsing people who'll be 86 when they leave the Senate. If they just do want one more term for Janet Mills. I see a lot of septuagenarians and octogenarians on the Republican side. Right, but they're not looking for your endorsement. They're not looking for your endorsement. And your endorsement matters. It's of enormous value. Yeah. I'll, well, I'm not sure about that. But I think the point about, you know, we want to be encouraging new voices. We also want experience, though. You know, we want people, you know, I'll take experience over people who get in and don't know what the hell they're doing. Because we've seen some very destructive forces come into politics.

I look at some of what we've seen from the Republican class in Congress the last couple of terms. I mean, it's not been good. So, you know, I also want people who know what they're doing who are in it for the right reason. I don't care how old you are. You've got to be in it for the right reason. And this is supposed to be about public service. This is supposed to be about showing up every day and, you know, doing your darnness to work together with others to deliver for Americans and people, you know, on what they care about, on what they need. And I can tell you, you know, if I go out on the street here in Massachusetts and I'm polling, people don't much care about who's doing what in Congress or who's up in one raised or whose endorsement.

No. What they want to know is, are you working for me? Are you growing jobs? Are you taking care of my family and ensuring that my kid is going to get educated, that I'm going to have access to health care, and that we're creating a state that is steady and secure and that is about building forward for the future? I mean, that's what people care about. So you mentioned that you mentioned Zoraanam Darni, mayor of New York, Mikey Cheryl in New Jersey, Abigail Spanberger in Virginia. which group ends up winning the brand of the Democratic Party as we go into the midterms? You know, I don't think there's one particular brand except the brand of getting things done for people. You know, delivering. All of us say the same thing. It's about getting stuff done or getting done. That's what I see in the group of Democrats who've been winning.

people who are, you know, when I think about the governors, when I think about, you know, others who I've served with, for all of us who are serving, it's about getting things done. I think that's going to be important. I think you've got to demonstrate that you're a real person, that you are, you know, who you say you are and that you are in it for them. I mean, that's what it's about. And I think that's going to carry the day. And certainly, you know, being in it for them right now, the state. central issue is affordability, you know, and making life easier and more affordable for people, for your constituents. That's, I think that's what the races were about. And also a repudiation of

Trump, because he's doing things, whether it's tariffs or taking away health care or taking away food, driving up costs, you know, it was a repudiation of that. I also think it was a repudiation of a president and a federal administration that knows no bounds and is doing things that have been never contemplated before in terms of, you know, an anti-democratic small-dei prerogative, right? That's that that was what was going on as well. So one of the things that we hear and one of the things I hear is that people don't feel the Democratic Party has a national leader. Now, I get we're in the run up to the midterms, but it does feel.

feel like, and you've referenced the high quality of governors at the moment, that governors are, A, becoming more prominent and B, clearly beginning to throw their hat in the ring for 2028. Do you have a favorite candidate? No, no. And I don't even, I don't, I'm somebody, I just, I don't even like those discussions. I understand what people do. It's a fascination among the media and among the donor class and what have you. But, you know, if people are so focused on that, they're going to miss the now and what needs to happen. I think that, you know, we should know.

What I would want to communicate is that the Democratic Party, we have leaders in the Democratic Party. I serve with many. I've worked with many. Incredibly talented who know how to lead, who know how to bring people together, who know how to move with a common purpose and a mission and get things done,

who understand the assignment, who understand the responsibility. And, you know, I think you'll see more voices and more people emerge. We've got to focus on this fall, though. We need to protect the elections. We need safe and secure elections. And we need to understand that Donald Trump, particularly because I don't think he's going to do anything to make life more affordable for people, he's going to continue to engage in things that seem more desperate, that are more outlanders, that are more out there as we move closer to November. And we need to be prepared for what he's going to try to do to take the election. We need to also continue to focus. on affordability in what we're actually delivering. I'll give you an example, Joanna. I can't wait for energy independence. I've got to find a way, just as I did with vaccines, we organized other states into our own sort of CDC Public Health Consortium. I've been working to work with other states to

organize how we're going to source more energy into the Northeast. I've signed agreements with Canadian provinces on energy deals because, you know, we just have to do what we can right now when we have a federal government that is not doing its job and is doing things that are harmful to our economies within our states and the American economy. Okay, so can we just talk about the election for a second? I mean, Donald Trump raised the possibility of federalizing the election. As a governor, what can you do to ensure that the election, 26, will be fair and voters will feel protected when they go to the polls? Yeah. Well, as you know, the way, it is supposed to work is that it is your state and local officials that run elections. They set the

rules for elections. They govern elections. They sort the ballots and issue the results. It's state and local officials. Of course, that Donald Trump, he doesn't want it to work that way. And so that's what he means by federalizing. The reason he went into Fulton County, of course, and I don't know how he got a judge, I think it turns out we've learned that there was false information offered for purposes of securing that indictment. But the idea is he wants to create this specter of fraud, that there was some sort of problem or frailty in the system. And then that gives him authority to exercise emergency powers and go in and take over elections.

He's had national guard on the street. He's had military on the street. I think all trying to, because he's Donald Trump. He pushes, pushes, pushes, pushes. Right. And you heard that in the State of the Union speech last night, too, his sort of whole thing that their Democrats cheat, they cheat, they cheat. All to sort of sow these seeds to provide some justification for him to exercise emergency

powers, put troops on the streets, to scare people away. I mean, I think that what we have to anticipate is not only will we see ice, we'll see every federal agency set out around ballot polling places to scare people away. I think it's important that we talk about it now and that we make sure. that we are training local officials, local law enforcement, and community members on what might happen and what their rights are. I think it's important that we talk about what is actually being attempted right now by the Trump administration and that we have in place what we need to have in place to protect people's rights. I have confidence in state and local officials to do just that. But I don't think we should underestimate the links that the president and the administration will go to come November.

And where do you have that conversation? If you're trying to reach voters who may be feeling anxious about coming out to the polls, how do you reach them? How do you have that conversation? I'm talking to you now about it. You know, I talk about it wherever I go that this is a possibility. And, you know, here's what we're doing. and we have rights and protections in place

and we're going to protect your vote and it's important, this is your right to go vote and it's going to be protected. And, you know, we just need to continue to message about that. And also I think it's very important that attorneys general and others litigate right now. When he's doing things that are illegal, look, as Attorney General back in Trump won,

we took him to court a bunch, won a lot of cases. The AGs are continuing to take him to court for things that his administration is doing that are illegal and unlawful, and a lot of those suits have been successful. So we need to fight on that front as well. You're the first female governor of Massachusetts. You're the first gay governor of Massachusetts. And yet yesterday in Donald Trump's State of the Union speech, he talks joyously about having gotten rid of DEI. What was your reaction to that? It's more of the same.

I mean, this has been the dog whistle, along with the xenophobic, racist, anti-immigrant, mass deportation agenda that he's led. Look, I'm not going to change who I am. You know, I come to this. I was, on the oldest of five, I was raised by a single mom who was a school nurse and, you know, taught us all the values of working hard, of looking out for others.

I am fortunate to be in this position. I feel privileged to be in this position, Joanna, as a governor in this moment, with an opportunity for some agency to do some things, to help people, to lead with others a way forward. But, you know, I also was a Division I athlete. And I know the importance of things like Title IX and anti-discrimination laws and civil rights protections. And what that has done over time is actually made it possible for people like me to serve. And, you know, I think we should be supportive of efforts to expand our access to the talent pool in this country, not narrow it to a group of white men, which, you know, seems to be the agenda of the Trump administration. When you look at the websites and the whitewashing of agency websites and the removal of women and people of color from the federal.

agencies, the posters, you know, that we see advertising right now out of the Trump administration. It's clear what they're trying to promote and do. But we got to remember that we are stronger as a nation because we lean into the talents and the abilities of all people. And we should be supporting the talents and abilities of all people, including women and people of color in this country. And, you know, I certainly feel a responsibility to live that every day. You know, I'm grateful to not only be in this role, but just in my personal life. I mean, with my partner, Joanna, and our kids and family and just try to, you know, we're a normal family and out there living our lives. And I can tell you, in Massachusetts, people's rights are going to be protected.

I think, you know, one of the first cases I argued, I was a business litigator for many years. Then I made this move. I became head of the Civil Rights Division in the Massachusetts Attorney General's office. And one of the first cases I brought, I actually sued President Obama, but it was for the Defense of Marriage Act, DOMA, which was a law that blocked legal protections for same-sex married couples. And we had same-sex married couples in Massachusetts because that was another Massachusetts first. And we won that case and went out to the Supreme Court. But, you know, it's about respect. You know, I think that's something that a lot of Americans get behind and understand.

And people just want to be respected, you know, for who they are. And that's why it's so so upsetting to see, you know, the rhetoric around this from the president. Do you worry about the future of gay marriage in the States? No. Maybe I shouldn't be so quick on that. But, you know, I just, first of all, I'm not constitutionally capable of imagining a scenario where that right, that, protection goes away. That said, I am mindful that every day, whether it's LGBTQ equality, whether it's racial equality, whether it's gender equality, you know, there have been rollbacks

and there have been setbacks perpetrated by this administration that we need to fight against and that we, you know, I'm not going to let us lose ground here in Massachusetts. I can tell you that. I'm proud that our state is, we've got the number one schools, number one education in the country. We're number one in health care. We're number one in innovation. We've also been ranked the best state to live if you have a baby, if you're a woman, if you want to raise a family. These are all good things. So I'm going to continue to lean into what got us here and, and, you know, make sure we do that. And I also know that, you know, I fundamentally believe in the good of the American people. People get this, you know. And so I think that they're, you know,

that we've just got to continue to be strong. And in, in, in the face of what really is terrible efforts to take us backwards. Okay, so the next time you go down to Washington, the government... And by the way, just on the marriage equality, it states, states give out marriage licenses. The federal government doesn't. We get to decide who's married in our state. Okay. Well, that's reassuring to know.

The next time you go down to Washington, the government buildings will all have... an enormous banner of President Trump's face on them. What do you think of that? It's just theater. You know, it's just, it's a, it's a, it is what Donald Trump is. It is what this administration is about. He doesn't give a damn about American people. You know, he's helping himself.

He's helping his family. He's helping a few of his very, very wealthy friends. That's it. He doesn't give a damn about people, which is why he's, got his image on these buildings. He's got his name on these buildings. You know, I, whatever. He can have that maniacal ego chip. We've built 100,000 homes or started 100,000 homes in just three years. That's what people want to see. You know, are prices down all the way yet? No, but we're working on that. And I think, you know, we need to continue to focus on the things that people need,

driving down costs, economic growth, job growth, opportunity growth, you know, for people in our states. That's what people want us to focus on. I know that you're a professional basketballer. I also know that you're 5'4-4. So I imagine that you just have all sorts of extra tricks up your sleeve. As a player, are you going to run for 2028 as a presidential candidate? I'm governor, and that's what I'm focused on. And again, And to my earlier point, not to be rude, but I don't think talk of 28 is productive. You know, I think we need to focus on the right now. And that's what I'm trying to do.

And obviously, you point out, yes, I was a basketball player. And I'm 5'4, so that makes me a point guard. Point guards tend to be the bossy ones. They like to run the show. They're sort of the quarterback of the team. But I also say, you know, for a point guard, the greatest statistic is an assist. It's not the point scored. It's actually the assist setting somebody else up.

So vice president, then. That's what I'm hearing. Vice president. Yeah. But my point is, you know, leadership is about making teams work and working together and working in partnership and working, you know, with a common purpose for a common good. And I think Americans understand that. I think that that's what we've been about as a country,

the better part of 250 years. We've got a president and a federal administration that is trying as damned as it seems to take us off track, but we just got to be strong and resolute in who we are. And, you know, I say that here in the midst of our 250th year. And, you know, I remember and, you know, we learn in the history books about what people fought and died for, the blood they shed. When I go to No King's rallies, you know, it's an interesting to me observation. The number of Vietnam bets who are at those rallies. Many Republican, many independent, maybe some not politically engaged before,

but they know. See, people know, people know in their gut what's right and what's wrong. We can disagree as we should in a democracy on any number of things, but there's a right and there's a wrong, you know. And I believe that there are enough people who understand the right

and who understand that there's something terribly wrong going on over here. Why do you think they didn't understand that at the last election? You know, a lot's been talked about here. A lot has been written about, analyzed. I think that, you know, over the last several years, I think the growing wealth disparity and income inequality has really played into it. And it's not just a theory. I mean, the actual economic circumstance of people being that, you know, for the first time, your kid is not going to have a better economic circumstance than what you had. And I think, you know, for the course of history, we've always one of the next generation that follows to have that better opportunity, that better experience.

And, you know, I think too many people, it hasn't been working for them. It hasn't been working for them. And that's what this whole affordability discussion is about. I mean, the chickens have come home to roost here, right? That's what happened, it seems to me. And, you know, and you have the master marketer, right? I mean, and Donald Trump, he just says a bunch of stuff. I think, as he did last night, but I think, you know, more and more people are seeing that what he said, it's not real. It's not meaningful measures. It's not real affordability. It's not actually delivering for people.

But, Governor, didn't people know that from Trump one and they still voted for him? I mean, I'm very struck by your point that the Democrats don't need a national leader, that people should focus on what's working in their communities. And I understand that. And I do buy that. And yet I am still flabbergasted by the idea that people voted. for him a second time knowing the chaotic administration that he wrote the first time. And let me say about the leaders.

Yeah, but I just want to make the point that you said earlier that he surrounded himself with unserious people. We knew he was going to do that. We saw him bring on RFK Jr. And say, oh, he's going to be my health minister. So the bit I'm really struggling to understand, yes, things aren't working, why would they think Donald Trump would make them work? Well, I think right now what's important is that we be offering something, that we be offering

solutions. You know, that's what I'm trying to do every day. The conversation about a national leader in 28, the point I'm trying to make is that I think we have a whole team of national leaders in the Democratic Party from different places, from different regions, different personalities, but everybody's got to bring to bear all they've got in terms of talent and focus on the American people from where they are. And it's a little different from different places and from different individuals. But my point is, if you look at this team and this party, there are leaders across the board. You know, the fact that I'm able to say now, three years later, we got 100,000 homes in the pipeline. That gives people confidence that government is

working for them. When he takes vaccines away and I bring them back and everybody's got a prescription, that gives people confidence in a government leader. When he takes away funding for science and research and I say, no, not in Massachusetts, we're going to make investments in science and research. By the way, we're going to make sure that your kid is going to get whatever education they want. They want great vocational training. They want training for college and preparation for college. They want training for a career or technical position. They're going to get it in Massachusetts. People are like, oh, yeah, okay, great, you know. So it matters.

It matters that the actions that we take every single day and the ways that we show up for people. That builds people's belief in government. They see government working for them. So while we've got to point out all the things that he's talked about that he hasn't delivered on, and also, you know, I think this is really important because people are hurting across the country. What's important for us to do is to make sure that people understand that, You know, the action he took is why you're experiencing this, you know, and why you're feeling it and why you're worse off. We need to do that, but we also need to continue to offer the solutions and to show that we can deliver for people in our states.

Okay, Governor Healy, thank you very much for your time. I'm very interested to see how things roll out in Massachusetts. And I think the Ed Markey primary is not until September. So you've got plenty of time to weigh up your endorsement. No, and I will say this. You know, we got hammered with the blizzard, of course, here in the Northeast. So I'm sorry not to be with you in the studio, but I look forward to having a chat someday in person. Good. Me too.

Me too. Thank you very much. Really interesting to hear from you. And, yeah, I can only imagine you on the basket. call devastating. Devastating. No, no, you take care. Okay, thank you very much. So there you have it, a five foot four point guard and basketball player who's now governor of the state that everybody is watching for the future of the Democratic Party. Will it have generational change or will it stick with its senior and experience and years senators?

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