The Daily Beast Podcast - How Jared Played Trump to Grease Own Pocket: Wolff

Episode Date: October 12, 2025

The Beast’s Joanna Coles and Trump Chronicler Michael Wolff dive deep into Donald Trump being snubbed for the Nobel Peace Prize and the forces driving his obsession with recognition. They explore the pivotal role of Jared Kushner, Trump’s son-in-law, who balances family loyalty, high-stakes diplomacy, and billion-dollar business opportunities in the Middle East. From navigating complex deals with the Saudis and Qataris to leveraging influence for both profit and power, Coles and Wolff reveal how Trump’s desire for validation intersects with Kushner’s strategic maneuvering. The episode unpacks ambition, risk, and reward at the highest levels, showing how peace, personal gain, and political calculation collide in the Trump crucible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Michael, is this a business deal or is it actually a peace deal? Well, I can tell you how this went down. It basically began with the Qataris who Jared is close to. And understand the context of this, that at this point in the world, the greatest pool of free cash flow is in the Persian Gulf. everybody is in the Persian Gulf. Are you raising money? You go to the Persian Gulf.

Are you starting a business? You go to the Persian Gulf. Put the emphasis on following the money. So Michael. Joanna. We're going inside Trump's head to figure out what is being triggered in there after the news that he didn't win the Nobel Peace Prize. And what we're going to get to,

inside Trump's head is his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, who is one of the elements of Trump's political identity and who is, in some sense, always in Trump's head. Interesting. The son-in-law always in the father-in-law's head and who might, along with your friend, Steve Whitkoff, who you have been withering about. It's possible that Jared and Steve Wickoff, two real estate dudes from Manhattan, might end up getting next year's Nobel Peace Prize. Yeah, actually Jared is from New Jersey, which figures into this. But let's go back to Trump being snubbed for the Peace Prize, which is elemental to the story, to the unfolding story in the Middle East. right now. And not only has Trump been snubbed by the Peace Prize Committee, he's been rebuked. The fact that the Nobel Peace Prize has gone to Maria Machada is giving it to someone who really represents the absolute polar opposite of Donald Trump.

I mean, she is, I think the language that the Peace Prize Committee used is that she represents the flame of democracy amid a world of growing darkness. And that would pointedly be Donald Trump is the darkness. And, you know, I mean, it's kind of extraordinary that she is this campaigner for democracy in Venezuela might in any world have been considered up against Donald Trump, the man who has defied his own courts, sent children. troops into his own cities, undermined his own free elections. And in fact, been blowing up boats from Venezuela.

Indeed. So in what world could it have been that Donald Trump believe that he actually might have gotten, actually was destined to get the Nobel Peace Prize? Now, and let's step back. I mean, he absolute, there was, on his part, an absolute belief that he would get the Nobel Peace Prize. He was as recently as somewhat more than 24 hours ago telling people that he was a lock on the Nobel Peace Prize. He was telling people that less than 24 hours ago? Indeed, he was.

And I think in his world, in his reality, this made perfect sense. It actually made perfect sense to lots and lots of people. He had brought a peace or at least a moment of peace and maybe a meaningful moment of peace to an intractable situation, the situation between Israel and Gaza. which is the point at which I think we should segue into Donald Trump's head via Jared Kushner. I totally think we should, but I will say that this morning, we're recording this on Friday afternoon before Donald Trump gives another press conference at 5 o'clock. So I should just point that out. But he woke up this morning and promptly started reposting all sorts of posts that other people have put out saying Donald Trump was a lot.

man of peace, as in fact MSNBC is reporting that they're about to charge John Bolton, his former national security advisor, and try and get him into trouble alongside Letitia James, alongside who's the other person they're charging? Oh, James Comey, former head of the FBI. So it's been a busy week. This is in flying exactly in the face of democracy. for which Maria Rashada got this award, he's jailing his opponents or trying to. Exactly. All right. So inside Trump's head, we are stomping around with our galoshes and we run into none other than Jared Kushner.

Jared Kushner, who was sat right next to on Bibi Netanyahu's left at the, when B.B. Netanyahu was addressing the Israeli. Parliament and who I think many people thought had disappeared because in effect he has disappeared in that he was very present during Trump one and then made it very clear he wasn't going to be part of Trump too so can you take can you take us back yeah I can because I know I know Jared and have spent some amount of time with him and you know I I actually first met Jared on the campaign trail. And I thought you were going to tell me you knew Jared when he was the, when he purchased the New York

Observer, which was that pink, very funny newspaper that was part of New York life at one point, certainly when I arrived. And Peter Catlin was his mischievous editor. I mean, he was just the kind of, there was, there was, he was not a person you would have any interest in getting to know at that time. I mean, he was an, you know, a lightweight just a, you know, a rich guy who had way overpaid for this newspaper, I think, as I recall, he bought it for $11 million, which was approximately $11 million more than it was worth. I knew the editor of the paper at that time, a man by the name of Peter Kaplan, and so the only thing I knew about Jared Kushner was what Peter Peter said and Peter was spread it all over town that he was one of the great lightweights, Jared Kushner of all time.

Well, he's not quite as lightweight now. I mean, perhaps hard to predict what would have happened to him. No, I think that's one of the interesting developments. But Jared, who married Ivanka and then had the job in the campaign, the kind of interesting job of the, of the, of the, of the, of the, of, the family monitor of Donald Trump. I mean, the family believed, I mean, Donald Trump was running for president, this was ridiculous, and they had as best they could to protect the family brand. And wasn't he also thought us as the digital genius, that this was, 2016, it was the sort of peak Facebook moment for campaigns. And Jared was someone who understood this in a way that other people around Donald Trump. And Donald Trump didn't quite understand the power of Facebook.

Well, I'm not sure that that was true. And that certainly was not true at the point in the campaign when nobody thought that they were, that this was a real campaign. I mean, this was just the publicity exercise on Donald Trump's part. And the family was just trying to somewhat limit his, the embarrassing lengths that he would go to to attract publicity. Right. Oh, goodness. And then later, when they actually preposterously and certainly unexpectedly got the nomination,

and yes, Jared was one of the people who were, seemed to have some, or at least claimed to have some expertise or knew who to call to somewhat, to mount a hurried digital operation. Now, Steve Bannon was involved in the campaign, and Steve Bann at that time would have said that Jared was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was a, was, was, was, was, was, was, was. in this a political list, which would be very valuable, in which Jared himself would come to have an ownership stake in, which leads to another theme of the Trump. Hold on a minute.

What do you mean by list? A list of what? Politics is founded on basically politics is founded on having a list. Your strength as a politician is about the strength of your list. Do you mean list of voters? Yes, yeah, list of voters, list of people who are guaranteed to support you, likely to support you, all of those things. So you're looking to make a reach-out efficient. One of the things you don't want to do is campaign to people who are never going to support you, for instance.

So at any rate, they develop this list, and the list actually becomes incredibly valuable not only to Trump, but commercially valuable. Think of, you know, all the money they've made selling those hats, just as a, for instance. But so, but, and this is, extend this theme, Jared really represents the idea that, that governing should work for the people who are doing the governing as well as the governed. So all along, that theme of Trump trying to profit from the presidency, of the people around Trump trying to profit from the presidency, in very, in very not just direct ways, but without much pretense otherwise.

And Jared came to represent this, what would be the word, certainly, this implaus. this theme of the presidents, of the Trump, of the Trump years, the grift. The grift or the opportunism. I mean, because what's so fascinating about looking at this deal and then understanding what Jared has been doing since he left after Trump won is just this sense of, and he keeps talking about him and Steve Wickoff being deal guys. It's all very well having, you know, diplomats and stuff. out of a New York Times story today, and it's always very interesting.

Jared, who was one of the great leakers in the first administration, has turned himself into a kind of favorite of the press, because he's, especially the New York Times, seems always to have a soft spot for Jared Kushner. Well, it's hard not to have a soft spot for the son-in-law of Donald Trump. But I'm fascinated by the way they present themselves, or Steve Wickeff and Jara present themselves as deal guys, sort of saying, you know, the previous lot have tried to do this, which is a totally fair point. Why would we try and do, why would we try and pursue peace in the Middle East using the traditional diplomatic channels? Because that hasn't worked. We are deal guys. We get to yes first, and then we think about all the details after. I mean, I would look at this. Yes, you can say. deal guys, you can use that language, or you can say these are grifters. Well, I'm using their language, right? Their language is deal guys. I know that. I know that. But even to understand, let's, I mean, what deal guys and grifters have in common is

recognize, it's following the money. And Jared recognizes, and I think in a way that that a lot of traditional diplomats and political figures might not, that everything in the region is dictated by money. The Saudis, what is their motivation in the end? Money. The Qataris, what's their motivation? Money. The Emirates, what's their motivation money?

Not the Palestinians. That is not their motivation. motivation. Intipathy to Israel, that is not their motivation. Their motivation is money. Show me the money. And Jared has been incredibly good at speaking exactly to that. And on top of that, their idea of the money and who has the money and how you exchange the money is always a family thing. they are very they are more comfortable dealing with families because that's what they're used to and that's what they deal with their own families than they are in a free month let's call it a just a simple free market world now that's fascinating to think about the families and the tribes of the middle east and then the Kushner tribe and the Trump tribe and of course Jared's father Charles Kushner got a pardon from Donald Trump and is now the U.S. ambassador to Paris.

I mean, when Jared was growing up, he was going to see his father in jail at the weekends. Joanna, I think we have to stop for an ad or two. And we're back from our sponsors to discuss more about Donald Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Right, and remember, so his father went to jail for setting up a, I think, his brother-in-law with a prostitute. And then he went to jail. And at that point, actually, then Jared took over the business as a young man. And Jared has a brother called Josh Kushner, also married to a high profile model in his case. I mean, the two Kushner brothers are pretty fascinating, both good looking, both charming,

people love to be around them. They have the sort of, they seem to have shed their father's sleeves. No, no, no, I would disagree with that. I mean, Josh, I think people, some people like to be around. Nobody likes to be around Jared. Okay, go on. Well, he's, first thing, he's, he has no social presence at all. You described him in your book, I came across this this afternoon.

You described him in your book, too famous, as a quivering filament, which reminded me of a filament in a light bulb that, slightly, you're not quite sure if it's on or off. It's flickering. It's flickering. No, no. And actually, the times, one long interview I did with him is hand shook through the whole, whole interview. You know, he's cold, he's haughty, he's arrogant, he's entitled, he's unpleasant. He's He's personally unpleasant. You would not want to be with him. And nobody, and he was certainly within the first Trump White House

among the more disliked or, if you will, even hated figures. Having said that, you also have to note that he's perhaps the only true survivor of the first Trump White House. Well, and he had a couple of near misses, didn't he? I mean, he certainly had to testify a couple of times. Oh, no, no, no, no. I mean, I think it became for him a kind of, a kind of, you know, risk-reward situation. You know, he recognized that being in the White House could be monetized, and he has monetized it. When he got out of the White House, he's monetized this at a level we have never before seen from anyone. in the White House, but also recognizing a high level of risk. Within the White House, they basically say he can big foot anyone. If Jared chooses to step in, move aside. And in fact, you know,

very important to note that Susie Wiles, who is the chief of staff, was put into that job directly and personally by Jared Kushner. So what is Jared relationship with his father-in-law now? You know, they've gone through some not good periods, including after the 2020 defeat when Trump returned to Mar-a-Lago, he had assumed that Jared would go to Mar-a-Lago with him and would continue as his aid and consulariare and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and in effect Trump's brain. But Jared very much did not want to do that.

First thing he wanted to get on with the business of making money. And he wanted to get out from under the thumb of his father-in-law, and which I think he, I don't think Jared has had any illusions about what his father-in-law was. And I mean, indeed, Jared's father was a. Democrat and he was assumed to be a Democrat and I'm sure he wanted didn't he want to Andy Vancker wanted to put January the 6th as far in the rearview mirror as they possibly yeah no um you know in the in the white house in the first white house they used to say um you know when the going gets tough uh Jared is nowhere to be found and and I think that was

certainly true after the with the claims of a Trump's claims of election fraud and then January 6th. They were not there. They were, they were like, okay, get us out of here. And in fact, they did not go to Moralago. They moved to Miami, enough of a distance that they weren't, they weren't going to be called upon on a daily basis, certainly. And Jared wanted to, you know, start the, I mean, he immediately, or in short order, recruited a couple of billion bucks from the Saudis and put himself into business, which then became another issue in his relationship with his father-in-law. Jared got the money and Trump did not.

That's so fascinating. So, of course, so he sets up affinity partners, he sets up affinity partners, which is his investment company in January 20, 21. He's listed at the moment as the only owner of it. As you say, he picks up $2 billion from the Saudis, from the sovereign wealth fund, and I think another billion dollars of other investors, and he's been investing in Israeli companies, American companies, companies in Africa. Right.

And so, and this has been a, you know, kind of on, you know, on a parallel track here, Trump has himself been very attuned to, you know, keeping up with the cushion. so to speak. So fascinating. So Michael, is this a business deal or is it actually a peace deal? Well, I can tell you what I hear, how this went down. And it basically began with the Qataris who Jared is close to. And I mean, understand the context of this that at this point,

in the world, the greatest pool of free cash flow is in the Persian Gulf. Everybody is in the Persian Gulf. Are you raising money? You go to the Persian Gulf. Are you starting a business? You go to the Persian Gulf. And it also coincides with MBS, Mohammed bin Salaman, modernizing Saudi Arabia. This might not have happened 10 years ago.

But here you have a young crown prince who is determined to modernize. his country. Well, let's not even, yes. But again, put the emphasis on following the money. Everybody is money hungry. MBS is money hungry. MBZ is money hungry. The Qataris are money hungry.

It's what it all is. And the families that run these countries. And remember, in each instance, there are so many family members. that they really actually do need a lot of money. So it begins with the Qataris. So the Qataris basically say, and I don't know the context in which they say, but they say, you know, we will come down on hard on Hamas.

And remember, Israel attacked the Hamas negotiators, the Hamas, essentially the top Hamas leadership in Qatar. So they were completely freaked out about this. You know, let's, and I think they realized we got them, we got it. This is, this is not in our interest. So, so it's essentially we will come down hard on Hamas, they say to, Donald Trump's son-in-law, if the president of the United States will come down hard on on B.B. Netanyahu. And so that has now, now Trump has not come down hard on B.B. for the past,

I mean, since he's, since he's been in office, essentially B.B. has had a free reign to continue this, this awful carnage with Trump. at best looking the other way. So suddenly, though, he comes down hard on BB. And he comes down hard on BB, not least of all. And Jared is good at this. He knows how to play his father-in-law. He comes down hard on on on on on on in this 11th hour bid to win the Nobel Peace Prize. So really was a driving force behind this? Completely. You know, Trump is. you know, it's always very important to get inside Trump's head and realize that what he wants is usually very specific. He wants something for himself. So he doesn't want peace. He wants a peace prize. Exactly. Exactly. And I shouldn't be laughing because there's so much at stake, but it's so, it's so odd. It's just so odd. Or it's not odd. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I'm, very, it's very clear.

Trump is very readable. Trump is a very simple machine. What does he want? Not he, not want in a global sense. What does he want in a specific sense? And the Nobel Peace Prize has been an obsession. I mean, he will not feel complete until he gets the Nobel Peace Prize. How can he get the Nobel Peace Prize?

Well, by bringing a peace to the Middle East Prize. East, by solving the Gaza, the Gaza situation. Now, of course, he could have done that any time since last January when he became, when he became the President of the United States. But he does it now because for a very specific goal, the Nobel Peace Prize, which he did not get. The world has some justice in it. We should know. Well, he might, I mean, and then he might go through the humiliation of watching his son-in-law and his former golfing buddy, Steve Whitkoff, pick it up next year? Yeah, well, I'm going to have some faith.

I mean, the Nobel Peace Prize has been awarded to some actually quite horrible people in the past. But, you know, I mean, I think this is, again, this is an exercise, and this is what we do here, trying to understand what is in Trump's head. And the idea, and it seemed, seemed weird to me, that actually at this point in time, for no apparent reason, peace was in Trump's head. But it makes perfect sense that the Peace Prize was in Trump's head. And that his son-in-law, he's quite clever, at least when it comes to his father-in-law, son-in-law, knew this. And basically went to him and said, you can get the peace prize if you just come down hard on BB and force a deal.

And then what's going on in Jared's head is contracts, deals, money. Yeah. Jared, I mean, Jared's business is basically based in that part of the world. And is that, and Michael, is there any way? that actually Jared is doing this because he believes in peace, because he really craves peace in the Middle East. He tried to get it during the first. I mean, I think he craves.

I mean, he was part of the Abraham Accords, which did make a difference in the region. He craves influence in the Middle East. He craves business opportunities in the Middle East. He craves further deep. relationships with the powerful people in the Middle East, all of which is helped by peace. So peace becomes a byproduct of business. Is that good? Is that bad? Well, it's better than not having peace, right? It's better than what has been going on. Yeah. I think that that's

True. Yeah. But we should not have illusions about this. He has acted out of his own self-interest and is that bad. Well, perhaps his self-interest is also a bigger interest. Two things can exist at the same time. So he has business interests in bringing peace, but we all have interest in peace in the Middle East. Yeah, no. I mean, this is, this is, on that hand, that is, this is a positive development. I mean, obviously it's a positive development. It will enable Jared, however, to accomplish things that, that we would think are highly less than positive.

I mean, he will grease his own pocket. I mean, this is, so the, I mean, what we have in the broader context is peace, but peace brought to us by, by, for reasons that we don't, we don't understand by powers that we can't control. And, and in a, in a world that, that is going to make. make people, individuals vastly richer because of this. And then again, you come, well, is that bad? Would you rather have peace?

Would you rather have an equitable world or peace? And I think for the moment, people would certainly choose peace. Blessed are the deal makers? It is that time again, and to our sponsors. Michael Wolf and I are back firmly inside Trump's head. Okay, Michael, we will be watching the president this weekend as he takes a victory lap around the Middle East with his son-in-law, presumably. Have you been in the room with the two of them together because I'm struck by their physical differences? Yeah, I have. No, I was knocked over by it.

And this was the first time on the campaign. It was in Trump's house in Beverly Hills. We were all sitting together. And Trump is this just is this, I mean, I think people don't realize what a dominating physical presence he is. Scary. I mean, you literally, you literally step back from him. And he moves in a hulking way. And he's, and he is large.

This isn't just a six foot two or three. man. This is an exceptionally large, you know, I would guess, a 300 pound plus a six-foot-two man. And Jared is a 98-pound weakling in the classic sense. I mean, he's read thin without, you know, he's fairly tall, not as tall as his father-in-law, but read thin. And he kind of pulls himself together. I mean, pulls, you know, retreats. You can see him physically retreat against the presence of his father-in-law. I've seen him with Ivanka where she's the center of attention,

and he almost becomes a negative space. he sort of withdraws into himself, was my observation. Perhaps he does that with his father-in-law too. Yeah, no, with other people too. I mean, I was once with Steve Bannon in the White House, and we were talking, and then Jared clearly wondering what was going on and what we were talking about, and he kind of shimmied into the room,

and sort of waited for an invitation to join the conversation, which Bannon did not give him. So he was left there awkwardly standing. And then finally he just decided to seize the day and he sat down. And then Bannon completely ignored him, ignored him to the point where he obviously was, he didn't know what he was doing there and probably had even stopped listening, And at that point, Bannon engaged him. Do you think that's true, Jared? Did you get that?

What's your feeling, Jared? I mean, just that kind of schoolboy caught by the teacher. But. It was a pleasant bunch in that White House. Oh, I was going to say, but it turns out that Jared had much more staying power than Steve Bannon. It was Steve Bannon who ended up going to Joe. He is the winner out of that White House. and he understood all of the reasons not to go back into the White House.

So in that business equation of opportunity versus risk, which is the ultimate business equation, and then the question is how to maximize opportunity and minimize risk, he saw, well, I should not go into the White House. I can still have considerable power outside of the White House, really as much power as he wants to have, and to really limit the risks he was going to, he would have to take, and then to maximize the money he is going to get. Right. Well, fascinating to see what falls out over the weekend. We haven't yet gotten around to talking about Malania's remarkable press conference today where it turned out she's been talking to be. President Putin about returning Ukrainian children. We're going to talk more about Malady and why she's suddenly on the scene on Tuesday. And until then, well, we'll be keeping close watch

on whatever comes out of the White House. Michael, have a good weekend. Do you want to remind people to subscribe to our podcast? Please subscribe to the podcast. I don't exactly know how to do that. But you just press the button that says subscribe. is that's it you press the button that says subscribe please there's a button that says subscribe and all you have to do is

press it and you can leave reviews for us on Apple and Spotify wherever you get your podcast comments on YouTube please are they reviewing us or commenting entering into a discussion with us two different things

interesting on Apple and Spotify well on Spotify you can leave comments on Apple I think you review us and on YouTube, you can enter into what are really frequently extremely interesting conversations that people join in, all sorts of threads of conversations. How are our reviews on Apple? I don't know. I haven't looked, actually.

I will go on this weekend and look. I will go on this weekend and look. I'm a bit more familiar with YouTube. But... I always believe that the best policy with reviews is not to read them. Well, I would agree with you, but these aren't reviews. Anyway, it's been a momentous week for James Comey, possibly for John Bolton, and for peace in the Middle East. And Latisha James, which I don't think we've mentioned that we haven't covered that incredibly egregious move.

Another incredibly egregious move on the part of Donald Trump and his, what would we call her, handmade and Lindsay Halligan. You know, and I think we should spend a little more time on the fact that she has become this complete non-entity. Well, she was a complete non-entity, but now she's become an entity, hasn't she? Yeah, no. Now she's firing off. This is her moment.

She's pivotal to the destruction of democracy in America. I'm sure her high school classmates would not have voted her pivotal to the destruction of democracy in America. Right, but they would have, they would have, I think, said best hair. Well, there's a lot of competition within the Trump circle on best hair. I think she would have had the best hair at high school, and she has a lot of competition. Melania's hair looks splendid today at her unexpected press conference. as we know Margo Martin, fabulous hair. Natalie Harp, fabulous hair.

Hope Hicks, who probably had the best hair of all. The best, yes. It's not around any longer. But it is the, and then, of course, Donald Trump's hair. Donald Trump's own hair. Always begins and ends with Donald Trump's hair. Indeed it does. Michael, onwards.

Until Tuesday. Onwards. Until Tuesday. Until Tuesday, don't forget to be Beast. And a shout out to our top tier Be Beast members, Karen White, Heidi Riley, Connie, Rutherford, Sharon Shipley, Andrea Hoddle, and Free DC. And thank you to our production team, Devin Roderino, Annavon Erson, and our editor, Jesse Milwood. Want more great listens?

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