The Daily Beast Podcast - How Online Trolls Left Justine Bateman Feeling ‘Messed Up’

Episode Date: September 18, 2022

In the ‘80s Justine Bateman was one of TVs most recognizable faces thanks to her role on Family Ties. Now, she tells The New Abnormal’s Molly Jong-Fast how online chatter about her looks left her reeling. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Zhang Fast, no relationship to Kim Jong-un. I'm a left-wing pundant and a writer at the Atlantic Invo. And I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy and current cable news conscientious objector. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart, conversations with the wisest and funniest and funniest people in science and media and politics that help make what's happening today clearer. Our world has been turned upside down, and on The New Abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and how we'll hopefully get ourselves out of it. Hello, and welcome to another Sunday bonus episode of The New Abnormal. We thank you so much for being here. Today, we have an extra special guest with writer, director, and actress Justine Bateman, who you of course may know from family ties, her directorial debut, Violet.

And she's going to talk to Molly all about her book, Face. But first, let's have some fun. Are we ready to listen to some clips? Hell yeah. I guess. Don't, what, what? You need some enthusiasm, Andy. No, I'm always ready for clips.

I love clips. We really have a world tour of stupid today. Hard to imagine. I'm sure you're shocked to hear this. It never happens on this episode. The first comes from who I like to think of as the take king, Jesse Waters. Oh. The king of something.

Person that they can focus everyone on so that they don't have to talk about what a mess our economy is in. explained it perfectly. I don't have to add anything to that. And Greg is right. We are better people, but we lose. We show up with a knife to a gunfight, but we lose with honor. We should take notes and maybe start funneling money to the squad types and the dem primaries so we can knock them off easier in the general. Yeah, this is, this clip is bad. I mean, it's just getting dumb. I think what's important about this clip is that Jesse Waters just said that Republicans are, are good losers and don't. I mean,

didn't Trump, isn't Trump still saying he won the 2020 election or, I mean, like, you can't just say stuff that doesn't have any basis in reality. We're, you know, we, well,

I mean, I think you forget what, you forgot what network he's on. But I mean, that is completely, like, I'm sorry, but what,

you know, we lose with dignity. I mean, no, and also, you're better people. your whole party is based on the idea that you don't want to pay taxes, right? I mean, the cruelty and cruelty.

But, I mean, you know, even the less cruel people, the people who don't love Trumpism, they were Republicans because they didn't want to pay taxes, right? I mean, this is not the measure of, like, how good a person you are. No, it's bizarre world stuff. And it's just, I mean, it started from the top. I mean, if you ever find yourself in a position where you're saying to Janine Piro, you said it perfectly. you have made bad life choices.

And that is what is going on here. All of these people, including my former coworker, have made bad life choices. And they are now stuck saying things that not only don't bear any relationship to reality, they are the opposite of what actual reality is. And it's beyond obvious that it's Republicans that forever have been,

bringing the guns to the fight. Democrats are the ones who want to ban guns, by the way. But now that the Democrats are finally standing up a little bit and fighting, people on Fox don't know what to do with themselves. And so they spout this absolute nonsense that, again, it's not even that it's not true. It's the opposite of true. Like everything, just reverse the parties in everything they say, and then it's true. Well, it's also they're just basically saying all the stuff.

that they've heard Democrats say. But it doesn't, Matt, you're the ones who won't accept the election results. I still think it's, like, amazing. Jesse Waters and Judge Box of Wine, two of my, like, absolutely the dumbest people on television who have continued to do really well at Fox. Oh, they thrive. It is absolutely amazing. And it is, again, it is, the instructive thing is to listen to everything they say

and just, again, reverse the party. and that's where you get the truth. But, you know, this is what their viewers want to hear. They know it's what their viewers want to hear. And they're not about telling anyone the truth or being accurate or about facts. They're about telling their viewers what they want to hear. I just want to say one last thing, which I think is important to specify. There is no world in which the CIA or the FBI is filled with liberal Democrats.

Like, that's not how any of this fucking works, right? I'm telling you right now, maybe one or two of them voted for Hillary because they just couldn't stomach Trump. Right. These are not Democrats. No, look, these are the same people who talk about the woke generals, which, come on. I do have one clarification. I think Judge Box of Wine does say something perfectly. You know when you go to a bar, the bartender's an amateur and doesn't know how to make a drink?

I bet you she can say any drink she wants made absolutely perfectly. I mean, I'm sober, so I hate making fun of people for. being alcoholics, but I also feel that I have a lot of credibility with it. I mean, I don't know what's going on there, but it does seem she's quite in the bag much of the time. All right. So, we have another reoccurring segment. What the hell is Herschel Walker saying? Oh, no.

I feel kind of bad because I feel like, like, clearly there's a lot going on there that is causing this, like physical injuries. Yeah, well, here we go. Well, you know, you got to pay tribute to the 9-11 victims, you know, but also you saw America come together. You saw America come together because this country was, you know, it was on the war with a country that didn't believe in us. And right now we have leaders in Washington like Joe Biden doing venomous speeches that doesn't believe in America people. Yeah, Joe Biden is just like Al-Qaeda. I mean, that's basically what he's saying, right? If Al-Qaeda is a country, I guess that's what he's saying.

I mean, it's so hard to really even know what he's saying. Yeah, and again, you know, we've said this on this show before, and you said it earlier if Jesse didn't edit it out. CTE is not a joke. Right, right, clearly. I mean, he clearly, like, and I don't mean this as a joke, it does seem like maybe he's a poster child for CTE. Yeah.

No. Because it's just the things that come out of his mouth, they don't make sense. And you sort of can tell what he's getting at there, even though it's wrong. This is why I didn't feel as bad about this. This just sounded like when I was guessing in history class that I hadn't studied personally. Right. But he's running for Senate, Jesse. Yeah.

I would like him to not be guessing wrong. I'm not saying that he should be running for Senate. I'm just saying I think this is less brain injury or just has no idea. what the hell ever was happening with politics because he never thought he was going to do this until a psychotic, former racist game show host decided he should be a senator. Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's both. By the way, I don't think he's a former racist. He's a former game show. I mean, he's a reality television host. But yes, agreed for sure. Okay, I actually don't know how to pronounce this last name because we just got to know this fellow today. Good. Good.

But Don Balduck, who is the Senate candidate for the GOPN. New Hampshire. Oh, man, this guy is really bad. Let's listen to what he has to say. He just won his primary on Tuesday, which is why none of us had, he has not been in the spotlight, but he's had all this time to prepare for prime time. And let me just say he is not ready.

That's a good deal. We, you know, live and learn, right? And I've done a lot of research on this. And I've spent the past couple of weeks talking to Granite Staters all over the state from, you know, every party. And I have come to the conclusion, and I want to be definitive on this, the election was not stolen. Was there fraud? Yes. Is that a concern of granite staters all over the state? Yes, there is. Is there a responsibility for public servants and elected positions to ensure that our citizens have faith in their voting system? Yes. But elections

have consequences. And unfortunately, President Biden, is the legitimate president of this country. Okay, so the important thing about this, there are two important things. One is that as little as a month ago when he was running in his primary, he said the election was stolen. And he's been saying this all along.

He also promotes anti-vax conspiracies. I mean, he's out there. Right. He said this now that he won his primary. Right, exactly. So he said this now that he won his primary. And I got to give credit to Bill Hammer at Fox News who actually called him out on it and said that, you know,

You said just a month ago that the election was stolen because a lot of times on Fox News and in conservative media, they just pretend that the past, which could be as recent as an hour ago, never happened. Yeah. And that the things they said and did didn't happen. At least for once somebody called one of these idiots out on their just, you know, on the fact that they've just been straight up lying. Or he's lying now and he doesn't believe that, and he does still believe that the election was stolen. Who the hell knows? But he is somehow, again, he's the New Hampshire Senate candidate for the GOP. Running against Maggie Hassan.

First of all, he's got the name of like a low-level boss in a fantasy video game. Yeah. And Mario Brothers or something. I don't know where they keep finding these people. They're everywhere. I also think that, again, and we've talked about this before, these are swing states. This is not Mississippi. Like, this is a state with a blue.

senator. So now you're going to run her against a guy who, you know, has been an anti-vax or refuses to say the legitimacy of the election. Like, what? Like, where, in what world will this work for you? I mean, I'm not saying this as a Democrat. I'm saying this

like as just a person who understands math and not very well. Yeah. I mean, hopefully not in this world. Yeah. Yeah. The stupidity continues. As we recall on this podcast, we've listened to one Charlie Kirk talk a lot about how college is not something conservatives should be involved. Largely because he couldn't get into college, but yes.

Yes. Well, DJ TJ is escalating this argument to a whole new level. They're doing it in the Democrat Party and the communists on their side. But it's our daily reminder once again, once again that our government schools are indoctrination centers. They are designed, in my opinion, at this point, simply to brainwash children. They're not there to teach you to think. They're not there to teach you how to make an argument and how to back it up. They are there to create the next generation of communist Marxists that so many in our public education would love to see.

Well, I think what's important here is that DJTJ is amazing. and not on any substances and seems totally together. That's what I would say from listening to that. And I would say that once again, you have to swap the parties to make this even remotely true. The people who are trying to indoctrinate people are Rondesantis. My feeling is DJTJ is totally fine, and the way he talks is completely healthy, and there's nothing going on. I don't think that DJTJ is maybe the best.

He's not the poster child for private schools. I mean, as someone who grew up in the same area and has a lot of overlap, whatever, knows people who know him, he's saying public schools are bad, but he's a pretty good case of private schools are bad. Yeah, look, I get it. You're friends with the guy and you don't, you know. And, you know, you do Christmas at Mar-a-Lago. I understand. Jesus Christ. He's kidding. I mean, if this is even kidding. Continue. I will say this. My favorite thing, though, is that is when these rich people just assume everybody has money to send their kids to private school.

It's just the Georgia H.W. Bush at the scanner at the supermarket moments that I really love. I mean, I think that, you know, again, we're at this point of, like, people who have wealth pretending they don't have money in order to, to, to score votes, and that's a very Trumpy trope. And I guess also, you know, to be fair to Molly's friend. You're the worst person of the world, thank you.

The alternative is not necessarily private school, there's also homeschooling. Yes, yes. Which, of course, is not used to indoctrinate at all, thank God. Certainly not. Not designed to brainwash children. Never, ever.

Just normal stuff. I'm sorry about your friend, Molly. You're the first. worst person in the world. Justine Bateman is a writer, director, and producer, and the author of Face. Welcome to the new abnormal, Justine. Thank you. So we're talking about your book called Face, One Square Foot of Skin.

How do you get to a place where you decide you want to write this book? Not to plug my first book, but I will. Yeah, that's why you're here. Yeah. In my first book, Fame, the hijacking of reality, part of that, you know, was talking about the fame, the life cycle of fame and all this. And I happened to Google my name, which was a mistake. As part of my research, I discovered that the autocomplete was looks old.

And at the time, I was 40, 42. I'm 56 now. And I didn't think that I looked particularly old. And oh, boy, there were a lot of results. And there were a lot of message boards dedicated to this. And so that sent me down this whole, it affected me far more deeply and for longer than I expected it to. And when I got to the other side of it, like, why did that bother me so much? Then I thought, well, what are the, I know the reasons for myself personally, but I started

thinking about what are the reasons that we have in society that all of society seems to hold this idea that women's faces are broken and have to be fixed. So the book goes into, so it's based on my experiences and feelings about the subject and those of about 20 people I interviewed. And I put that all into these like micro short stories that kind of go into, you know, why do we think we've adopted these ideas? Because I feel like once one discovers why they've adopted an idea, it's easier to then let go of it. Because you're like, oh, is that why I'm thinking that? Then I don't need to think that anymore. Yes. That's such an interesting story. Do you then stop feeling old or feeling like you looked old? For me, no, I mean, this is how I

process a lot of things. Like if something pushes my buttons, I have to go right about it and figure out What fear did that prick? What irrational fear, most of the time for me, it's an irrational fear do I have, that that sort of woke up. And if I write it out, say, well, you know, well, I felt defensive because, and if I'm really honest with myself, I'm really right out what that irrational thought is. And most of the time it's like, oh, my God, I, yeah, I guess I really think that deep down inside. By being able to look at it, then I'm able to go, okay, well, do I really think that's going to happen? But if I don't identify it, I just, let those irrational fears stay under the rug, if you will, they'll just keep driving my train. So that's what I've found works for me. So yes, with the face, I found that it was like, oh, no, if people think I look old, then therefore, and there's a fill in the blank for me, and there's a fill in the blank for everybody, right? Oh, I won't be able to get a mate or keep this job or get a new job or I'm afraid people won't listen to me or whatever it is. And I have found for myself, and I think it's true of others, that that fear right there is separate from the condition of the skin on your head.

That fear is deal with that fear. The fear that you won't get a mate or your fear that you're going to lose your job or your fear that people don't listen to you. Because that's separate. I found that's separate from the skin on your face. Two different things. And I think the problem that occurs is people go, oh, well, if I change my face, then I'll change that. which is pretty much how anorexics think, right? If I can get thin enough, it'll change everything outside of me.

Or other people with, like, I know the minute I dye my hair blonde, my whole world's going to change. I'll get that job. Or I don't know, maybe, maybe not. But maybe you would have gotten it anyways. Anyway, all to say, I've found if I deal with the fear itself instead of other things that I think will neuter the fear, then I'll, then I will have really made some progress

because then I can't get tripped up. that button can't really get pushed again. Like, do you think that some of this was, and again, we all have anxieties about getting aging, but do you think this was made worse by the fact that your career started as an actor? In my own experience, I was never a person who, and I have a mother who was very much a person who, she's a writer, but she also was like great beauty. And so she spent a lot of time mourning her beauty as she got older. I never had that experience. I mean, I don't like getting older because I don't want to die,

but I have had much less of my livelihood, you know, rely on my attractiveness level. And I just wonder how much that factors into it. I mean, I think that's a good point, for sure. A couple of the women I spoke to for face had been top models. And their face is changing was a really confusing portion of their lives because, especially if they didn't really have a lot of, lot of support and love from friends and family before they, you know, you hear the ugly duckling story, right? Before they go, oh, it's good to be gangly and really tall and have these unusual features, you know, now you're on the cover of Vogue. Right. So when that changed for them, it rocked their world in a very serious way because everything was wrapped up in how they looked.

The fact that they were getting love and appreciation from their friends and family, their livelihoods, they're sort of standing in the world, everything. So that's a real, you know, really can mess with your head. Right. For me personally, I mean, I got, you know, I certainly got the comments because I had previously been in the public eye in a big way. But I mean, really part of it was like, why are they even talking about me? I'm not even really on the radar, you know? But for me, it messed with my head because I didn't know what to do with it because I, you know, it's sound kind of arrogant, but I, I mean, I hope it sounds. just matter of fact, but I'd always had what society had decided was an attractive face.

Yeah, no, that's what I'm asking. You became famous as an actress in a world where your appearance was really valued. And so I wonder how that changes the calculus. Yeah, you know, if I had still been acting, I mean, I haven't acted in years just, you know, writing, directing, and, you know, writing books now. Yeah. I mean, it happened for a while. But yeah, had I still been acting, it would have definitely, and I think at the time I was even probably still kind of in that, but I think what threw me so much is that because it had been so matter of fact for me, because it had been so, you know, it's like, yeah, and I also have brown hair, you know, it's just kind of one of those things. And the fact that they were saying all these terrible

things, but I was like, and there's only one of me and a bunch of them. Right. What really messed me up is I made them right and me wrong because I thought, well, they must, I didn't even look at the photos they were posting on these messages. boards. And I was like, you know, like, oh, look at her here. And I thought, oh, my God, is there something wrong with me, with my brain that I can't see what they're seeing? You know, it's like the the gold dress, blue dress thing. Right. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. And that's what really messed with me. Yeah. I mean, there's like a lot of elements to it that I talk about in the, in fame and

in the other book. I mean, you know, that people would talk about you publicly. It's always horrifying. Yeah. I mean, that's really bizarre. If that hadn't been a matter-of-fact component of mine, but because it was such a strange thing, it was like people saying, her hair's blonde, her hair's blonde, and me going like, oh my God, my hair is brown. Am I losing, am I being gaslit? What's going on? Yeah. I also think it's interesting, like there is this sort of thing where you're this child on television, so no one, like it's almost, you're young on TV, but people don't really know when they think you're older. you're older in real life. You know what I mean?

Like people have been so used to you for such a long time. I think that also colors their anxiety, like their own anxiety about getting older somehow gets kind of stuck on you. You know, the funny thing about the internet is that nothing is in context. Right. I mean, I can search for a story and it'll come up. Sometimes articles don't even have a date on them. If it's a date, you know, you have to look for it, you know, notice the date.

Otherwise, it just looks like it was written yesterday. So sure, somebody can go in and look at photos of anybody, frankly, pretty much, and then go meet them and go like, oh, whoa. It's like, yeah, well, you were looking at a picture of them. It was 10 years old. But everything seems so right now and immediate versus looking at a magazine from 1985 that is in context. There's ads in there from 1985.

There were articles about other, say, people magazine or something. There's interviews with other people who were well known at that time in 1985. So it's all in context. But there's no context on the internet. It's just all material that could have been written yesterday, could have been written 10 years ago. And the photo, I don't know, could be from the 1700s. Who knows? I mean, hopefully you can tell the difference there.

But I think it has a lot to do with that, yeah, in line with what you just said. Do you live in Hollywood or in L.A.? Yeah. So, I mean, I always feel like I live in New York. And whenever I go there and I love L.A. and my dad lives there. My brother lives there. And I'm there all the time. But I always feel like culturally, it's very different level of pressure towards women.

L.A. there's a level of pressure for everybody. Right, for men to. And pressure is the wrong word. I think so many people come here having been the prettiest girl in their little town. Right. Right. Like an Ivy League college. And yeah, exactly. And then they come here and it's like, well, get in line. You know, there's

hundreds and hundreds of the prettiest girls in their town that come here. But if they come here because they have actually a skill set, you know, they'll be in good shape. You know, people are always looking for talented individuals. But, you know, interestingly, when I started getting DMs from readers about the book, these DMs and the press attention, everything, was from all different types of people from everywhere. I mean, not just small towns all over the place in the U.S., but then also from like Russia, Korea, Australia, lots of DMs from Australia, New Zealand, all over the place. People saying, oh, my God, all my friends are getting Botox and I really don't want to. And I was feeling really outside of everything and alone.

And then finally, somebody's talking about this. Somebody's talking about this. I don't want to just assume that I'm supposed to get my face cut up or punctured or whatever or I'm fine with it. I don't want to do it. And anyway, just it seems to be, yes, it's a, it's, they're unique types of atmospheres as far as looks go in Los Angeles or in New York that one can participate in or not. But I think this general idea that your face is broken and needs to be fixed seems to be pretty prevalent all over. And, you know, the good news is that we don't have to subscribe to it. You can just go like, nah, whatever fear this brings up in me, I can deal with that fear.

And I don't have to assume that my face is a hideous sight that needs to be cut and molded. And even for anyone else who, anyone who's done work on their faces, like, it's fine. Like, you can do, it's your body and skin and hair and you can do whatever you want to it. But if there was a fear that generated that action, it would behoove you to deal with that fear so that it doesn't stick around for the rest of your life and drive you to do other things and make you feel just unsatisfied no matter what you do. So one of the things I really want to talk to you about, I know we're almost out of time, but I'm 44. And I grew up in the world of like, you know, the models that we grew up with were like K Moss and the whole idea of like being really thin. Now we have, if you go, I mean, I was just in L.A. like a week ago and like the thing that you don't see in New York, but is clearly the standard of beauty more and more are enormous butts. It's like amazing.

This is a phenomenon you can only achieve with surgery. I mean, it's not even, right, it's like it's not a thing that happens in normal life. I mean, do you think at all about the sort of larger cultural weirdness of this being. now the standard of beauty. I mean, it seems to me like a very important feminist or maybe anti-feminist thing that's happening now where are, you know, the sort of the ideal is something that is not naturally occurring. Well, I mean, it's an interesting subject. The whole beauty standards of society and how they change. It's interesting that it's not always, but primarily upon women and not men. I mean, though there have been, you know, plenty of,

beauty standards on men that have changed and shifted over the years. But that's a whole interesting subject. There's a book by Nancy Etkoff called The Survival of the Pretiest that's kind of interestingly delves into that. She's a Harvard professor. She's become a good friend. She's an interesting writer. But yeah, I mean, so I'm 56. So I saw the, you know, really slender, sleek, flat-chested model standard in the late 70s, early 80s, and then came the bachsham, larger-hipped, kind of athletic-looking Christy Brinkley, well, Cheryl T's is a little more slender than Christy Blinkley, but that whole batch of women in the mid-80s, and then, yeah, they gave way to the Kate Moss and else. And I mean, I think the more you see the history of the standards of beauty, the more you can

become relaxed about your own because you go, oh, this just goes, you know, waves out. It's almost like, don't throw out your bell bottoms because they're probably going to come back. It's like, you know, be happy with whatever you've got because your body style will probably come into style, you know, within your lifetime because it's going to go up and down, up and down all over the place. And, you know, or your face, you're, you know, but don't you think like that to have a beauty standard that's unattainable through any possible diet and exercise, but that it has to be achieved through surgery is like a kind of paradigm shift that we've never had before? Sure.

I mean, I'm sorry to like get you on this topic, but this is like, I'm definitely got to write about this, but it seems important. It's true. And I think there's a lot of things that can occur now that hadn't been, that hadn't been possible in the past because of technology affordability and availability. You know, in the 70s, I'm going to assume, I don't know this exactly, but I'm going to assume that facelifts were more expensive back than they are now. They definitely are, and again, I'm saying this safer now, a little more common now. Yeah, and they're safer now. They're much safer now.

Surgery is much safer. And there's a lot of other techniques that one can do too, but I'm more interested in what's going on in your head. Does one think, well, I must do this otherwise I will not be accepted by the rest of the tribe. Right. On a real core brain level or I must do this or I won't work again or I must do this or no one's going to want to sleep with me. And I feel that the real fear is those things that you're concerned will happen if you don't get the surgery, that those fears will not be satisfied with the change.

And when we talk about, you know, to get back to what you brought up, you know, the standard of beauty. Well, it's like, I mean, a lot of that can be fear-based. Like a fear that, you know, we all went through this in junior high probably or something like, oh, if I don't have those, you know, sailor style, you know, jeans, like I will, I won't be part of the group. So a lot of that wanting to adhere to the standard of beauty, I think if someone really thinks about it, it's rooted in a fear that they won't be part of. And my whole thing for myself and my wish for others is that they're just,

just not be any fear involved in their decisions and their choices, which is my film Violet that I did came out last year with Olivia Munn. That's all about that, you know? And how do you get from a life that is, you know, whose foundation is fear-based decisions to a life whose foundation is instinct-based decisions? Anyway, so that film's a good companion to this book face. Yeah. That was so great. Thank you so much. It was amazing. Of course. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from The Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics, and science. We'll help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll

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