The Daily Beast Podcast - How This Attorney General Beat Trump 40 Times in Court

Episode Date: November 26, 2021

Attorney General of Pennsylvania Josh Shapiro knows how to win elections, run elections, and keep them safe and fair. In this episode of The New Abnormal, he tells Molly Jong-Fast how he and the democrats in his state oversaw at least 40 cases of alleged voter fraud brought against the state after President Joe Biden rightfully won the 2020 election and former President Trump didn’t—and won them all. Plus, former California mayor Michael Tubbs, author of The Deeper the Roots: A Memoir of Hope and Home, shares the fatal flaw that cost him his seat in office. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Molly Jong-Fast and welcome to The Daily Beast, The New Abnormal. I'm a left-wing pundit and an editor-at-large at the Daily Beast. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. Our world has been turned up to down. On the new abnormal, we'll talk about the people who got us into this mess and figure out how to get ourselves out of it. And I'm producer Jesse Kenan. I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails.

Molly and I are off for the holiday, but we wanted to keep your podcast fed since that's what this weekend is all about. We have two rising stars of the Democratic Party on to talk to us about a host of issues. Michael Tubbs is the former mayor of Stockton, California, and author of The Deeper the Roots, a memoir of Hope and Home.

And he's going to talk to us about the politics of today. But first, we're going to speak to Josh Shapiro, who's presently the Attorney General of Pennsylvania, but in 2022 will be the Democratic nominee for governor of the state. Welcome to the new abnormal, Josh Shapiro. Great to be with you. Thanks, Molly. So I actually have been wanting to get you on here since we knew you were going to run before you announced. I love it.

Yeah, it's really good. The reason, I mean, there are a number of reasons why the governor of Pennsylvania, you know, that governorship is important. But now with the Republican assault on democracy, it seems even more important that Democrats win this seat. Yeah, without question. I mean, democracy is on the ballot right now here in Pennsylvania and indeed across the country. And that is something that is motivating me. It's motivating the people that I see when I'm traveling across the Commonwealth. And I think it'll be a central conversation in this campaign. Yeah, you have really were in the thick of it in a way because you have been AG for the state. I mean, you've seen these sort of firsthand, what has happened with Republicans, is it as bad as it looks on TV? I mean, let's just walk through what happened here in Pennsylvania. So I serve as Attorney General of Commonwealth. And in the early days of 2020, when the former president began talking about how vote-by-mail

was not okay and that the Democrats were going to try and steal the election, right? All of his greatest hits. I immediately put together a team in my office made up of lawyers from both our criminal division and our civil division. And we basically had, you know, kind of three focuses that we were trying to deal with. First, how do we ensure that every legal eligible voter has access to the polls? That was our goal leading up to election day. Second, how could we have a safe, free, and fair, and smooth election day? And then third, how could we deal with the inevitable legal challenges that would come after the election trying to deny people's votes from being counted.

I predicted that would happen. Unfortunately, I was right. We faced 19 lawsuits before a single vote was cast in Pennsylvania. We want every single one of them. Then we had a free and fair, safe and secure election on election day. And then we faced over 20 more lawsuits to try and make it harder for people's votes to be counted. And we want every single one of those. But understand, Molly, they didn't stop there. And that's why our democracy is still a central issue here in Pennsylvania across the country. They continued with the big lie. And you can draw a straight line between the litigation, the lies and the violent insurrection on January the 6th. And then they took the fight to the states. We saw that in Georgia and Texas, for example, where they passed new laws, making it

harder for people to vote, particularly people of color and disabled Americans. They tried to do that here in Pennsylvania, but for the veto pen of our Democratic governor, it would be law here as well. And then they didn't stop there. Then they went forward with these sham audits. You saw it happen in Arizona. It's happening in Pennsylvania now. I'm in litigation right now to stop them from being able to get the private personal information of 9 million Pennsylvania voters. And so now we will see an extension of those attacks on our democracy in next year's elections and certainly here in Pennsylvania. If we lose the veto pen of our governor, they will pass the same kind of laws they've already passed in Texas and in Georgia. And so that is why I'm being very clear that I stand on the side of

democracy. I stand on the side of inclusion. I stand on the side of voter participation. My opponents all want to restrict that. All want to make it harder for people to get access to the ballot box. And here's the last thing I'll say, Molly, sorry to go on and on. But the reason why this is so important is not just about these sort of broad concepts of democracy, but when you want to go deal with the big issues we are facing today, whether it's workforce issues, education issues, public health issues, if certain people are excluded from that conversation, are denied the right to vote, are denied access to the ballot box, and thus not part of the conversation about the solutions, then we're not going to have fair and just outcomes when it comes to those big public policy

challenges that we're facing here in Pennsylvania today. And so it is critically important, not just for the sake of our democracy, but for the sake of all of these issues that we care so deeply about of making sure that everybody's included in the process. Yeah, no, clearly. And it seems like you were on the front lines. Did you get threats? Oh, of course. I mean, lots of threats, but this is my job is to stand up and fight for the good people of Pennsylvania. And thankfully, we have a great group of folks here who deal with that stuff. But the, the, The rhetoric has gotten white hot. People who are supposed leaders in our country and former leaders in our country are allowing their words to be used to foment hate and violence in our communities.

That's absolutely unacceptable. Leaders need to speak and act with moral clarity. I try and do that here in Pennsylvania. I wish others did as well. Did you ever think like it's just not worth it? No, I'm staying in this fight. I've always gotten off the sidelines, gotten in the game and tried to do my part. to make things right. If I walk away at this time, if I give in to those people on the other side

who would seek to undermine your right to vote, make it harder for women to make decisions over their own bodies, make it harder for young people of color to have an opportunity for success in this Commonwealth, make it harder for us to deal with these systemic inequities that exist in our Commonwealth, then who's going to fight those fights? So I'm staying in this game. I'm not going be deterred. I am unafraid of what they're putting forward. And I'm going to continue to take this big fight directly to them and stand up

for the good people of Pennsylvania. There's a lot of media narrative about, and also historical precedent for Democrats getting shellacked in the 2020 midterm. That's Obama's word, not mine. What do you think Democrats can do? And also listeners of this podcast to

prevent that from happening? Well, I can't speak to Democrats in Washington, D.C. or anywhere else. I can only speak to here in Pennsylvania. And I've got a record of winning in tough elections in 2016 when Secretary Clinton lost here in Pennsylvania. I won. In 2020, I ran ahead of Joe Biden and set a record for the most votes ever in the history of Pennsylvania for any office at any time. And that's largely because we show up in every community. We talk about issues that matter most to the people of Pennsylvania. Try and stay away from the kind of national rhetoric that I think

is frankly not all that helpful to our democracy and to our politics today and just focus on how we're going to make the lives of everyday Pennsylvanians better. That's the work I've done in the past and that's what I'll do in this campaign and we feel really strong and optimistic. I want to go back to that. I'm curious about that and I think about that a lot. Are you talking about sort of the Republican culture war stuff that you don't want to get involved in? Because I see that as a real kind of bait situation to distract Democrats from the legislation they're passing, but I'm curious to know what you think. Look, I'm running my campaign. I'm a Pennsylvania Democrat, and I focus on the issues that

matter most to Pennsylvanians. I try not to subscribe to, you know, someone else and someone else's labels or their orthodoxy over a particular issue or matter. I really just try and focus on meeting people where they are in their communities, listening to them, That's something that oftentimes is lost in our politics. And then talking about concrete solutions, they're going to make their lives better. That's what I pay attention to. And that's what I think most people here in Pennsylvania pay attention to. They're not kind of paying attention to the national rhetoric as much in my estimation.

You have places in Pennsylvania that are really truly like red like West Virginia. How do you go to places like, I understand how you go. to, you know, how you go to Philly. But like, talk to me about how you go to those places and appeal to those people, because that's something Democrats really struggle with. Well, first and foremost, I show up. I mean, I'm not trying to sound silly, but like, you got to show up. Yeah. And you've got to listen. And I've done that throughout my career and, and the results speak for themselves in 2016 and 2020. I ran ahead of every other Democrat in those kinds of counties that you're talking about. Let me tell you a story about a man that I visited with in Bradford,

County, Pennsylvania. It's up kind of in the northern tier, more like northeastern Pennsylvania on the border with New York State, a very, very conservative area. I brought a lawsuit against a natural gas company that was drilling on the lands of individuals who lived in those neighborhoods. And the natural gas company refused to pay the landowners what they were owed in natural gas royalty payments. And I sued the company, and I went to Bradford County several times, but in this one incident to brief the neighbors on the status of our lawsuit. And after my town hall meeting was over, one of the guys kind of motioned, he kind of pointed at me with his finger and called me over to him. And he was wearing one of those red, you know, whatever you call him, the

MAGA hats. And he had a t-shirt on that expressed his support for the former president. And he said, you know, Mr. Attorney General, I don't agree with you on a bunch of the policy positions you have, but you're the only guy who's up here fighting for us. And I appreciate that. And I'm for you. And Molly, I have to tell you, I mean, that, that meant the world to me. And I think it really speaks to how Pennsylvaniaans think about their elected leaders. They just want to know you're fighting for them. And look, for some, a party label is important. And that's all they're going to ever see. But for a lot of others, I think they're willing to look past that and evaluate the person and try and get a sense of what have they done to make my life better. And in this case, I worked my tail off to make the lives of the good people of Bradford County better, even though, you know, historically they're not ones that tended to vote in big numbers for Democrats. I mean, how do you deal with, like, for example, misinformation, like you know the pockets of Florida voters got stuff that wasn't true? I mean, how do you deal with that kind of,

like, you know, some of these people, the only news they'll ever have is Facebook? Yeah, I mean, I can't speak to Florida, but here in Pennsylvania, we respond to it. And we make sure. that the truth is shared, that I aggressively put forth my message, put forth the facts, make sure people are seeing a counter to the misinformation, disinformation that is being shared on Facebook and Parlor and some of these other sites. So we're very, very aggressive about trying to respond and get the truth out. Do you think that Democrats should legislate more on that? Look, I mean, I'm in the midst of several investigations into some of these social media companies. So I think I want to be a little bit careful about what I say in terms of

what law enforcement can do. But certainly Congress needs to act. And these social media companies need to be reined in. And that's not, I'm not expressing that because I want these social media companies to be pursuing a particular political viewpoint. I want them to be even on that and fair. but I want to make sure that they are not making a buck off of promoting misinformation, which is what Facebook and others have done. I think that is really reckless and dangerous in our democracy. Are you worried about the fundamentals of like having free and fair elections for this 2022 election? Look, I'm working to make sure, again, that we have a free and fair, safe and secure election

like we did last time in Pennsylvania. Yeah. Understand, Molly, that there was all kinds of rhetoric about voting. fraud. I think at the end of the day, we had, it was either three or four cases of voter fraud. And in every case, it was an individual trying to cast an extra vote for the former president. Hardly the kind of widespread voter fraud that's been alleged. And so, you know, we will continue to make sure. By the way, I prosecuted voter fraud as the attorney general. I take that very, very seriously. We didn't have that kind of widespread voter fraud in 2020. And I'm going to make sure we don't

have it going forward in any election. We didn't have it in 2021, where we just had a number of races as well, and there were no allegations of it, which I think kind of speaks volumes about the hypocrisy and the emptiness of the commentary coming from the other side. So we will do everything in our power to continue to make sure that we have free and fair, safe and secure elections here in Pennsylvania. I literally am scared that democracy may not hold, right? We have a Republican party that is basically consolidating power and trying to figure out a way. I mean, they're encouraging, like, the craziest people they can to run for state office in order to be able to, you know, overturn elections. I mean, does that keep you up at night? Of course. I'm running for office in part because I want to

make sure we are defending our democracy and that we are giving everyone an opportunity to be heard in our system and participate in our system. But certainly, I'm concerned about it. Look, here in Pennsylvania, I think there's 13, 14, 15 candidates running for governor on the Republican side. I'm the only one running as a Democrat. All of my opponents are beholden to the big lie. They all express that. And indeed, polling shows that the leading candidate on the other side, like leading by a lot, participated in the violent insurrection on January the 6th and speaks openly about it. That is not the kind of leadership. we can afford to have here in Pennsylvania. Not only will he undermine democracy, but he'll sign the Texas

abortion ban into law, something I will veto. He'll make it harder for kids to get a quality education. He'll make it harder for people to participate in our economy. He'll make it harder for us to get past COVID and deal with the public health issues. This is someone who is very dangerous, but it's also someone who's the leading candidate in the Republican side. And so I'm motivated not just to beat him, but to make sure that we can protect our democracy here in the Commonwealth going forward. Oh, I'm so stressed. I'm somehow more stressed out. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us. This was great. Great to be with you, Molly. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, folks. If you haven't heard every single week, we do a special bonus episode for Beast

Inside, the Daily Beast membership program. Sometimes we interview senators like Corey or the folks who explain what's happening behind the scenes in media, like Jim Acosta or Soledadad O'Brien. Sometimes we just have fun and talk to our favorite comedians and actors like Busy Phillips or Billy Eichner, and sometimes we just have friends around to analyze what's happening in the news. You can get all of our episodes in your favorite podcast app of choice by becoming a beast inside member where you'll support the beast fearless journalism, as well as getting full access to podcasts and articles.

To become a member, head to New Abnormal.com. That's New Abnormal.com. Dailybeast.com. Michael Tubbs is the former mayor of Stockton, California, and author of The Deeper the Roots, a Memoir of Hope and Home. Welcome back to the new abnormal, Michael Tubbs. Thank you so much for having me again. Anytime.

So talk to us about the book. Yeah, the book, The Deeper the Roots, a Memoir of Hope and Home is really a love letter to my city, Stockton, a love letter to my mom, my aunt and grandmother, who all paid pivotal roles in raising me. And also a love letter to the future about sort of a love letter to the future about sort of of the hard work we have to do to create the society and the communities we all deserve to live in. So it talks about being the first black mayor, being the youngest. It talks about growing up in a community like Stockton, growing up in poverty, growing up with

incarcerated father. It's also a commentary on policies and how they impact people's lived experiences. So let's talk about that for a second because do you think Democrats are doing a good enough job at messaging these policies? I think we can always do better. I think the Democrats in and of themselves can't be the only messengers. We also need sort of mainstream media

to at least tell people what's going on or at least tell people what's being done and at least report what's actually happening. Will you expand on that for us for a minute? I mean, I think we saw it this week where Vice President Harris had an amazing trip to France, represent the United States well on a global stage. And CNN runs a story about,

gossip and whispers about some of Joe Biden's staff may not like her. It's like when that becomes what people are talking about and they know that what does what does vice president do? Well she's she was just in France and she was just ensuring that we had a great relationship with some of our allies and I think we see that time and time again even the reporting this year you have the January you the reporting is as if the Democrats and Republican are like equal parties like the Republican Party is a far-right authoritarian party of sedition. Like, it's a party where folks went and tried to overthrow the election and kill the vice president of their own party. And I think the way the media reports confuses people because they're like, well, I mean, nothing's being done in Congress.

Well, why is nothing being done? Because we have obstructionists and the Republican. So long answer to say, I think Democrats, we do have to do a better job of messaging and illustrating to people sort of what, why does it matter when Democrats govern? Like, how are their lives better and different? and be very clear of in doing that. Because we have to continue with the right-wing ecosystem with disinformation with the terrible algorithms of Facebook to kind of get to get people's attention. It's easier said than done,

but it's something we have to do in the mainstream media has to do their part and just report what's actually happening. Right. As we are recording this, a massive infrastructure bill is being signed. Don't you think that there really is a sense in which, like, that was Democrats' fault

for talking about the top line number and not being. able to sort of sum up, you know, if it had been Trump, he would have been like in the truck, like honking the horn, be like, I'm going to give you all bridges and fast trains. I think what we should have did, we should have mailed a hard hat, and it's not too late, mail a hard hat to every American family or to all the families who gave stimulus checks to. And so this is our infrastructure plan. We're so proud to be American.

Create like some game where you could go in and build like a bridge in your city. Like, this is how much money your city gets here and play with it. I think we do know that's a fair point. We have to do a better job of illustrating the people, being creative and how we do it. But let me also say it's hard to do that in government. It's hard to do that and get the votes and to write the policy. Like, you're just tired.

They're like, well, look, we're going to build these bridges, but we know in 21st century, America, 2021, it's not enough to be effective. It's not enough just to govern. You have to explain, explain, explain, explain, explain, and create sense. and create symbols and emotions around what you're doing. And that's something we have to do a better job as a party for sure. You lost your mayororship because of disinformation. What do you think we should be doing as Democrats to combat this misinformation?

I remember sort of that addicts used to be when they go low, we go high. Right. What I realize now is that a whole bunch of our people are going our low too. They're being low information. They're getting their information at the lowest common denominator. So we have to go low to lift them up. But we need to explain things. Yeah, we have to really engage.

I think my fatal flaw was that for three years, I did not respond to this information because it was so stupid and so ridiculous. I thought it was beneath the title of the mayor to respond to like some Facebook blog. Right, right. Right. But that's just not the terrain we're in and we have to really engage in conversations with people. That's what the Republican Party does. That's what Donald Trump did. He was talking to people every day through Facebook.

He was talking to people every day on YouTube. He was talking to people every single day on Twitter. And we have to do it while we're working on some guidelines and some laws to counter the corrosive impacts of the algorithm. While their algorithm exists as it is, we have to engage with it in a way where we're actually talking to people. Like silence is consent. Like just doing good is not enough.

We have to tell a story and that story has to be rooted in emotions because that's what the Republican Party does. They don't make ideological arguments to their base. These are not ideological arguments they're making. There's no real ideology. The only ideology is like white supremacy. But what they do is appeal to emotions. They appear to fear.

They appear to anger. And then they elevate people. And Democrats, we appeal to ideas, which is great. But we have to connect ideas and emotions. Like, we're going to be the party of hope. Let's make everything we do very hopeful. If we're going to be the party of righteous anger, let's make sure that's the emotion where we're getting our base

to feel? Because right now, we're talking about infrastructure and, like, that's devoid of emotion. We have to connect the infrastructure to, like, a nostalgia. Right. But I also think, like, there needs to be accountability for January 6th. Until, you know, people understand that one party is really just trying to end democracy. I mean, that seems like a pretty important point. A hugely important point. I'm glad Steve Bannon was arrested or was going to be arrested in having contempt. I don't think the public realizes that January 6th was something. very unique to American history. I think every single day, like on Veterans Day,

we should have said how dare any Republican post anything about Veterans Day when they disrespected the flag and ramshacked the Capitol for the first time since 1812. That's the message. Yeah, because we see that since January 6th, Republicans have really done a very good job of messaging that it was a terrible, you know, that Trump was, this was stolen. Of course it wasn't stolen. But, you know, if there's no narrative out there,

the one narrative that is takes hold. And that's what I learned from being mayor of Stockton. It has to be out there in a way that people on the ground who aren't connected can articulate. Or else, to your point, they'll go to what they can explain based on what they read on Facebook or on next door. Is there a way for Democrats to really get in Facebook and sort of correct the record? Yeah. I mean, it's going to cost money. But it's going to cost money.

but it's like literally doing advertising and ads and ads and targeting and talking to people in the language to understand about what happened. People should be so up in arms about January 6 because they've been told about it for so long and so often. But we haven't done that. It's like we spend more time talking about the fake Antifa protesters during some of the summer Black Lives Matter protest than we have about the actual far right terrorist who rampshap the Capitol and tried to kill the vice president. which is crazy. Killed officers. No, I know. We have two major trials.

How do you feel watching these and what is your take on this? Yeah, I kind of have to watch because it gets me upset. When we see people disengage from the system, when we see people be nihilistic, when you see people having despair, well, that's why. This young man, whether he loves cops or not, it's not the issue. This young men killed protesters, exercising their First Amendment rights. their rights as American citizens. And we're debating whether he should be held accountable. We dropped the charge. We dropped the drop the charge that was most likely easy to prove legally.

That's not just this, particularly when we know if it had been somebody else. Particularly when we know protesters have been in jailed for less, right? A reminder of the work we have to do. But also, I think it also goes back to sort of how part of the work has to be changing the narrative so that the people who are murdered by Carl Rinton House are. are deemed just as valuable and just as worthy and just as American as Cal is by everyone, right? Like then we would see justice and that's just the work we have to all engage in together. Oh, it's so depressing. I'm more depressed than I was before. Michael, so your book, you mentioned the title, you talk about hope. Why don't we turn this

conversation actually to something a little bit nice since Molly's already so depressed. Tell us about what hope has been in your life and how it relates to the book. Yeah, I think sort of my life story in general is a cause for hope. Despite, I'd be the first one to talk about structural problems and institutional barriers and racism and white supremacy. But despite all that, at 31 years old, I've been a mayor, I've been a council member, I've been a White House intern, I worked at Google, I went to Stanford. Like, that's a cause for despite having a mom who had me at 16 and a father who's incarcerated. That is a reason for hope. It's not a reason to think all problems go away. It's not a reason to say, well, if I could do it, everyone could do it.

But it is a reason to be like, okay, there's hope. There's still something in the system that is working. And then for me, it's my kids. I have two kids. I have a two-year-old and a nine-week-old, and they are just so happy, are oblivious to the craziness of the world that they didn't actually be brought into. But are happy and joyful and learning every day and growing every day. And that gives me hope because there's a future, right?

It's not over. This is not how it ends. We have another generation that's coming along. So that gives me a lot of hope. And then also, I think some of the things I did in Stockton, or we did in Stockton, excuse me, from reducing homicides to doing the first basic income program led by a city in this country to scholarships for all the kids. So that gives me hope, too, because despite how difficult it was, it was possible to make change.

It was possible to make things better. So that gives me a lot of hope as well. Minimum basic income has really taken off. And we talked about the last time you were on. Do you see a future where that happens? It's funny because even from the last time we talked, we're even closer. Like, last time we talked, I was like, we're really far. Yeah, we're doing really great.

So I think the child tax credit is a huge first step. When you talk about a guarantee income for families with children, which isn't everybody, but it's a whole lot more people than it was before. So I think once that's made permanent, that's a building block to build upon. So that's sort of my goal. That's something to work I'll be engaged in. It's figuring out how do you make guaranteed income move from pilots to policy? because we have like 24 pilots under Marriage for Guarantee Income.

And it's great. We love that work. We love the data we're getting. We love the narratives we're telling. But we need a policy. But we're closer today than we were at any time in the past 50 years. I'm really excited about it. And that's also a reason for hope.

Like in 2017, when I said it's going to do a basic income, is before Andrew Yang even announced he's running for president. Everyone thought, who's this 27-year-old kid? He's crazy. Like, what? Basic income, what? And five years later, at least families with kids are getting checked. and people are still getting their stimulus checks.

It's a huge, huge leap forward. Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Thank you so much, Michael Tubbs. I hope you'll come back. Anytime. On that note, we'll wrap this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking to smart folks from the Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics, and science.

We'll help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. Thanks so much for listening. and we'll see you again on the next episode. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber.

Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline. Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.