The Daily Beast Podcast - How Trump Can Bury Epstein Files Shame: Wolff

Episode Date: November 21, 2025

Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles as the Epstein story floods the zone. Wolff walks Joanna through why the recurrence of Epstein’s name so deeply rattles Trump and how old secrets keep re-emerging at the worst possible moments. They also dissect the chaotic legal maneuvers inside Trump’s circle, including Lindsey Halligan’s high-profile missteps and what her performance reveals about the administration’s strategy and priorities. It all builds toward the unsettling question hanging over the week: if this story “finally, finally” breaks open, what does Trump look like on the other side? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Although in that Trump jiu-jitsu, he is now saying he directed the release of the Epstein files. What we, of course, know is that he has done everything, everything possible, including putting himself in the firing line on this, not to release the Epstein files. I think he's gotten, if not 100% of what he wants. You know, he's gotten pretty close to it. He's in control of the Epstein files. Congress has given him the tool. with which to parse, edit, and curate the Epstein files.

So what do we have at the end of the day? We have actually probably just more distractions in the process of getting to the bottom of the Epstein story. Michael. Joanna. We have a lot of new listeners and viewers to the podcast over the last couple of weeks, And I thought we should just one more time recap for people who aren't regular listeners or viewers exactly what we're trying to do inside Trump's head. Having spent an enormous amount of time with Donald Trump and covering Donald Trump to the tune of four books and God knows how many attendant podcasts, I have been particularly frustrated, I think, with the way other people cover Donald Trump. that other people, other reporters, other journalists, cover this Donald Trump as they would any other president.

That Donald Trump is a reflection of what he does, of the policies he proposes. My view has always been that it doesn't work that way with Donald Trump, that he is a reflection of what he, what he got up in the morning, what was on his mind when he got up this morning. It's mercurial, it's impulsive, it passes, or sometimes unexpectedly, it returns. And because he doesn't really have advisors, he doesn't really listen to anyone, even if he has advisors, it doesn't make any difference because he doesn't listen. It is all about him. It is a government of one. And, and what that is about, it's not Donald Trump has a vision of, of, the way he wants his government to be or the way he wants his country to be. It is instead just

what comes into his head at a given moment. And, and, and so I think what we've set out to do is try to see Donald Trump, to see the Trump world, to see Trump news through that vantage point. What the devil is the guy thinking? Why? How long will he hold that thought? How will it be interpreted by others around him? I think that's a perfect up sum of what we're trying to do. And I would add only a quote that I've mentioned a couple of times on the the podcast, but this thing that Trey Parker said when asked why South Parker become political, it's not that it's become political, it's that politics has become pop culture. And because we've got a president who spent 14 seasons on a very popular reality show, he has made winning and losing

elections almost as exciting as who was going to win American Idol when it first launched. And I think the merging of all of it on social media too is just enthralling, exasperating and potentially terrifying. So. Moving on. Moving swiftly on. So today we're going to definitely cover. We have to come to, we're obviously going to start with Epstein, but we have to at some point make sure we leave enough time to delve into. Let me guess what you're going to say.

Who do we want to delve into? And I would guess that it would be the most ridiculous person at today in the Trump administration. And every day there's a new ridiculous person. But this person has got to take the cake, Lindsay Halligan. Who you have been flagging for the last few months as singly the most incompetent lawyer. As you pointed out, Trump often says he may not have the best lawyers, but he has the hottest lawyers. He had Pambondi. He had Toblansch. Her function was entirely to be a picture on his phone that he could show people.

And then unfortunately, she had to turn into a working lawyer and she's proved her a staggering incompetence. And of course, absolutely no match for James Come back to that. Yeah. Because it's really worth. Let's not deliver the whole punchline here. Okay, okay. All right. So let's start with the Epstein files and where are we? We know there was a unanimous vote, which happened just after we recorded on Tuesday. Now what happens? Will we see the Epstein files? I think that the answer is no. At least we will not see the full Epstein files. We will not know what we haven't seen in the Epstein files that whatever this legislation, whatever the point of this. legislation, it is effectively leaves control of the Epstein files and what will be released from the Epstein files in the hands of the White House. And obviously, although in that, you know,

Trump jiu-jitsu, he is now saying he directed the release of the Epstein files. What we, of course, know is that he has done everything, everything possible. And including including being fair, putting himself in the firing line on this, not to release the Epstein files. So, but I think he's gotten, if not 100% of what he wants, you know, he's gotten pretty close to it. He's in control of the Epstein files. Congress has given him the tools with which to parse, edit,

and curate the Epstein files. So what do we have at the end of the day? We don't, you know, we have, we have actually probably just more distractions in the, in the process of getting to the bottom of the Epstein story. I know that one doesn't always apply logic around Trump and him, and his administration, but is there a logic with which he can hold onto the files? Or do you think, I mean, you suggested in the last podcast he might have burned evidence. They've outlined this. They don't have to turn over files of which are relevant to an ongoing investigation. Everything can be an ongoing investigation.

Nor do they have to turn over files that are classified. And basically they can classify anything. So hell, what are we left with? Would the photos that you say you saw at Jeffrey Epstein's of Donald Trump around the pool in Palm Beach surrounded by young topless women, why would they be classified? Well, you don't, we don't have to know that. You can classify, basically you can classify anything, whether they, that would hold up in a in a in a in a in a court um is kind of it's kind of irrelevant um is that could you could you argue that's part of an ongoing investigation well there's an ongoing

investigation of all of epstein's crimes um is that related to that i mean and and do you have to justify that that's also not clear and or by the time you justify that. Everything has moved on anyway. So, you know, I think that, I think that we are, we are, have only marginally moved off the place where we were before there was this legislation. Trump is in charge. And, and it almost is worse because what he will do now, of course, is release aspects of these files that incriminate other people. Right. So in theory, he's supposed to release them within the next 30 days, which takes us bang up to the holidays too, which means that people won't be paying as much attention probably, and the house will have gone back for its recess. Yeah, I mean...

Is this like the dog that's caught the car? It's one of those things that everybody is now. The headlines are the Epstein files are going to be released. That's completely wrong. That's get inside Trump's head. They're not going to be released. Quite the opposite. We are, we are no farther along than we, than we have been. The headlines are wrong. The headlines should be. Files are not going to be released. So is this because he's instructed Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche, his former personal lawyers now running the DOJ, to just bury everything? I mean, aren't those files spread across government departments? There are supposed to be lots and lots of copies of. them. So can't people start leaking them if he decides not to release any effective information?

I mean, that's the question. Why doesn't everything get leaked? Some things get leaked. Other people don't get leaked. Other things don't get leaked. Great secrets don't get leaked. We don't know. It's called a leak. It's kind of random. It depends upon a person in a particular, at a particular point with particular information, being a, being willing to risk their job and potentially their freedom. So who knows. But what we do know on an institutional basis is that he is a justice department which understands its first function and responsibility is to protect him. Okay. So this is a very different take than other people have been giving. Everybody's sort of clamoring for the release and getting their magnifying glasses ready. You just think there's not going to be any

interesting information at all, or very little. I think that there will be interesting information that will that will shine a spotlight far away from Donald Trump. Okay, so who do you think is most vulnerable in this? I mean, he said he's going after Bill Clinton. Who are the other people he said he's going after? Larry Summers, who's this week had to recuse himself from almost everything. I mean, clearly any Democrats or any people he has some issue with. And do you have any insight into why the Biden administration didn't

release these. Was this because nobody was clamoring for the release of them? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think nobody is clamoring for it. I think that they probably didn't know what it was. I think that they were probably, you know, forget about this. This is, this is old dues. And let me remember, nobody was particularly interested in this story at that, at that point in time. And of course, there are a lot of Democrats in, in this. There's a lot of people, a lot of problems. And, prominent people showed up at Jeffrey Epstein's house. Were they implicated in anything other than having a conversation with Jeffrey Epstein? And I include myself here.

No. So in at least one point of view, which I think the Biden administration probably had, is that it would. it would it would be unfair to release this. It would complicate, it would, it would make problems for people who didn't deserve those, those problems. And to the degree that this was about, fundamentally more about Donald Trump than anyone else, they were already pursuing so many things against Donald Trump, that one more.

was, you know, I don't know, a bridge too far. Well, and I think they didn't factor him coming back for a second administration, right? They thought they'd dispensed with him. Well, no, I don't think that they did think that they, I mean, that's why, I mean, yes, they partly did, but partly clearly, you know, he was, he was, you know, there were two federal indictments against them and then two further state indictments because people were, you know, I mean, they certainly wanted to, they certainly wanted a silver bullet, which they thought that they had. Do you think this becomes the Epstein files, regardless of how much material comes out and how much the DOJ is able to hold back?

Do you think it becomes an actual factor in the midterms? Good question. You know, I don't, it very well might. I mean, I think it's a question of, of does it seem like, does it seem like he is? is stonewalling. Stonewalling. It's the classic cover-up. Does it seem like there is a cover-up going on?

You know, it sort of comes down to its politics. Is it cover-up adroit enough for there not to seem to be a cover-up? Is it stumbling and incompetent enough? And let's, you know, never underestimate the incompetence of the Trump-Trump administration to appear to be actually a cover-up, which it has. been so far. Remember the incompetence here. Trump saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can release the Epstein files. The people, the key figures in his administration saying, we're going to release the Epstein files. And then suddenly, you know, a screeching about face, there's nothing in the

Epstein files. We're not going to do anything. We're not releasing anything. Go home. Well, and also Elon Musk in his fit of peak when he's had his divorce, or at least, separation from Donald Trump, tweeting out, Trump is in the Epstein files. That was not helpful to Donald Trump. Right. Then he deleted the tweet. And now, after some kind of period of separation, he's now back in the fold and Trump is throwing bones at him at his dinner with MBS, for example.

Saudi bones. Koshoggi bones. I can't believe I use that. Oh, God. That was a terrible phrase. But yes, it's good. It's a good phrase. It's let's let's be, you know, I mean, it is a whole other subject, which I think we should spend some time on. You know, the fundamental connection between between the Trump administration and the Persian Gulf in this unlimited pool of cash, which they have accessed, they've access for the Trump family and for businesses. everywhere who have then come to support Donald Trump. Right. And just reminding people that Jared Kushner kicked off his business, affinity,

partners with $2 billion from the Saudis. Right. And, you know, I did a substack piece yesterday, I think, about Jeffrey Epstein's connection to MBS and the money in the Persian Gulf. And that that created, it was initially Before anyone else, Epstein is one of the people who saw the opportunities, the pickens were ripe. And he spent an enormous amount of time in the Persian Gulf with MBS playing video games with him. Jeffrey Epstein played video games with the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia. Yeah, you had to, apparently you had to, that was the only kind of, I mean, that was the central way to make a relationship. Like man children. So like man children. Of course. And then Tobarak, Epstein's friend, Trump's close confidant and advisor to this day, a pivotal figure in this. And then MBS is one of the first foreign visitors to the Trump, to the Trump White House in 2017. Saudi Arabia is one of the first foreign visitors.

foreign trips the president makes. And then MBS is supported by the Trump administration in essentially, you know, a coup against the rest of his family. He jumps over other contenders and becomes the Saudi leader. And everyone profits off of this. Right. Except I noticed that Jeff Bezos wasn't at the dinner for MBS, at least as far as I could see, which that would have been an awkward one for him, given that he's the owner of the Washington Post, and it was the Washington Post columnist who was dismembered by allegedly MBS. And the talks to our sponsors, who we love. And Michael Wolf and I are back inside Trump's head.

Remember that moment when after the Khashoggi thing, everybody was returning their thoughty money. A brief moment. A brief moment. Although if you talk to women who live there, they all say it's just changed radically. They can drive now. They can go out without headscarves. Things are much better in that he's dragged a country that was far behind into the modern world. That is true. An insular country then became a, you know, a financial powerhouse. And, and, And that was certainly, that was, as he described it to me, part of the conversation that Epstein had with MBS. Well before this, well before MBS came to ultimate power and well before the Persian Gulf states became the world's financial engine. Right. No, it's clear he's modernizing the country.

and it's a fascinating story as it unfold. All right, so let's get to the woman you have been talking about consistently for the last few months, Lindsay Halligan with the fabulous hair. Lindsay Halligan of the fabulous hair, but the less intense grip on the law. So Lindsay Halligan, who I have been aware of because of I closely followed the Trump 2020 for campaign, and she was a kind of in-and-out figure in the campaign and a comic figure. No one ever took her seriously. No one ever assumed that she could do anything, no less a legal job within the context of the campaign.

She was there for the sole purpose of being, Trump, Trump, it amused Trump to have these very good-looking women as his lawyers. You know, and this goes to Trump's whole mixed feeling about his lawyers who he always had. I mean, the lawyers who actually knew what they were doing, he always had a great deal of contempt for them. So to surround himself with these comely women who somehow got through law school was, A, something he could brag about. I may not have the smartest legal team, but I have the hottest. And then he would put up the iPhone. But it also gave him enormous dominance over these so-called lawyers.

They, of course, would do anything that he said because they didn't know what to do. they had no real independent, they had no independent legal reputations or practice. And Lindsay Halligan, I, you know, I'm sure she just kind of, she was someone innocent in all this. She kind of wandered into it. And it was like, why not? Well, I want to read what the judge said. I mean, before we do, before we get together, Michael and I usually text back and forth things that we've spotted. And Michael spotted. this comment from the judge on the case, and I'm going to read it out loud. It's challenging to unpack the DOJ letter, he wrote, because it contains so many factual, legal and typographical errors.

Indeed, even attorneys employed by the Texas Attorney General, who professes to be a political ally of the Trump administration, described the DOJ letter as legally unsound, baseless, erroneous, ham-fisted and a mess. Yeah, I mean, this should not be a surprise. The only thing that is a surprise here is that the United States government and justice department would actually do this. But what's not a surprise is that when you put a, when no lawyer in the government is willing to do what you, the president, wants done, and you send in a lawyer with absolutely

no training and no experience. That would be Lindsay Halligan. And she is forced alone, not with any assistance, not with any, not, not with a, with a staff around her to present this case to the grand jury. It's going to be, you know, obviously, in all likelihood, overwhelming. It's overwhelmingly likely that it will be a complete hash, which it was. And also, especially, when you're taking to task the former head of the FBI, a Republican who has hired a lawyer in Michael Dribbin, who has, I believe, I was looking at his record, presented in front of the Supreme Court. That's just one. There's his actual law.

A hundred times, Michael. A hundred times he's been in front of the Supreme Court. His actual lawyer. Patrick Fitzgerald. It has been a mainstay of the Justice Department, has been a special, a special. special prosecutor, is a, you know, a major presence in the Justice Department as James Comey was. So this is a, this is a, this is kind of the Justice Department against the Justice Department. Exactly. And it's, and one is competent and one is utterly incompetent

and has presented a mess to the judge. So we should get a result from that case any time soon. But the assumption is it will be dismissed. The likelihood is that they'll just throw it all out. Right. Which does that bode well for everybody else coming up on the docket that Trump is going after? I think it clearly does. I mean, this is at one of those interesting possible pivots here. Trump is going after people who are not powerless.

They have the ability to bite back. And they are obviously biting back. and they have they have constituencies of their own and power bases of their of their own. And, you know, it shows, you know, Trump is among everything else that he is. He is a fool. He doesn't think things through. He doesn't come to things with a strategic, with a strategic point of view. He can't think two steps in front of him.

And it all comes a cropper, which it did the last. last time he engaged, by the way, with James Comey. And that immediately resulted in the Mueller investigation and was devastating to his first term. The only thing that he has is this ability to make these egregious mistakes and then to distract from them, often with other egregious mistakes. Okay. So what's going on inside Trump's head in terms of this case against Comey is clearly going to be thrown out. The judge is already signaling it. What will be in Trump's head when that happens?

Is it just about how to drive the narrative on? It's a cliffhanger at the end of an episode and he's just driving into the next. Curiously, what he will do is try to demonize Comey further. So he'll double down. He's like the habit to double down. Always, always double down. is a, you know, this is a plot by the Democrats. This is a plot by Comey. This is, this is the, um, uh, you know, the, his enemies within the government, um, on and on and on, which,

which has some appeal to his base. He's standing up against these, um, these secret forces. Right. Against the deep state. And once more, um, a message from our sponsor. And we're back inside where, of course, you know it, Trump's head. Is it possible that Halligan's failure is good for Trump in creating a different headline from the Epstein case? Well, I think it would be a better headline if he had, if he was going to be able to pursue James Comey. I mean, you know, failure, another failure, I mean, as I as I say, he is often, he distracts from his failures often with other failures. So yes, I guess in that, in that, in that, with that logic, which is hardly what one would call logic, it might work. I mean, he will always keep pushing on.

there is never a moment with which would happen in other normal administrations in in which in which there is a kind of taking stock and a kind of and in you sense the you sense the the underlying shame of it all um and that never happens with Donald Trump because a because he feels no shame um and um and he able in the face of shame to summon enormous righteousness, a kind of righteousness that no that no non-sociopath would be able to summon. It is remarkable that Larry Summers, a former secretary to the treasurer and former president of Harvard, is forced to recuse himself or has been pressured to, you know,

leave the board of Open AI, stop teaching at home. Harvard, and yet Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein's best friend for 15 years, is in the White House and the most powerful man in the world. Of course. I mean, that is. That is what's going on now. Everybody trying to get their heads around this. That's the reckoning or the answer that people are looking for. How did this happen? Should this have happened? What does it mean that this has happened? I mean, that's why Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. keeps going on because it, because everybody understands that it says something. The problem is they don't know exactly know what it says. So Michael, hold on, hold on. Let me just get this straight. So when he was arrested in 2019, the indictment there for having sex with girls who are underage

was actually to do with his behavior in the late 90s and the 2000s, early 2000s, when Donald Trump and he were tooling around. Yes. Okay. Okay. So that is helpful to just bear that in mind as other much more accomplished people in a sense than Donald Trump have been felt by their adjacency to Epstein. Yeah, obviously. I mean, this is one of those Trumpian things. Remember, he has always denied. I mean, he has both admitted to knowing Epstein and admitted to knowing. him in a very, what would be the word, intimate sense. They were bros. Mark Singer, a writer for the New Yorker, just described a plane trip that he took with Donald Trump in, I think, 1996, in which Galane Maxwell was on the plane with Donald Trump, and then Galane and Trump got on the phone with Jeffrey Epstein. And Singer describes quite very, very much. And Singer describes quite very,

vividly, a very intimate jocular, you know, friends completing each other's sentences, kind of phone call and relationship. These guys were, as I've said, over and over and over and over again. You have. The closest of friends, each other's best friend, I believe, in life, that they have never, that they had each never had a relationship. as close as the one they had with each other. So Michael, what I'm taking away from this is it doesn't really matter that we had a

unanimous House vote for the release of the Epstein files other than as a big effie to Donald Trump because he's not going to release anything anyway of any value. Yeah, no. And I think that that's probably where this should come back to. What is the meaning of this vote insofar as as, as the Republican Party and Donald Trump, I think we can really assume that we are not going to get the answers that this is theoretically designed to get,

and that the real implications, at least the immediate implications, are what it says, you know, he lost his party on this. So what that means is questions about his own lame duck status, or his increasing lame duck status. And that this is going to be an ongoing, the Epstein, Epstein, Epstein of it all is going to continue. And it won't stop with answers because there won't be any answers, but it will continue as often scandals do precisely because there are no answers.

But it is the one thing he hasn't been able to control. I mean, there is potentially a way. Wag the Dog scenario here where he goes into Venezuela, something he wanted to do in his first administration. He's going to have to think of something very dramatic to move on from the Epstein Files. Well, I mean, there have been many dramatic things and he hasn't been able to move on. And I don't think that is going to happen. Well, I think on Friday we should just list all the things that we thought might be, you know, do you remember when we were all talking about the demolishing of the East Wing? What's happened to that? Is it a pilot?

of rubble have they started rebuilding. We need to follow up on that. The whole White House has been demolished. You haven't seen that. Nothing would surprise me. I just wonder how fast he's going to be able to build back better the ballroom. That's what I want to see. Anyway, we've got some more questions for Melania, which we should run through in our Ask Melania section. This is a good one from Sandra Sundrad. Melania, a question. Would you manage? your husband, if you had the information you have today back then when you first met. Could you ask her that, please? Well, that's a question for a novel. Question for Melania. Will you please

fill out this US citizen test? Hand her the test and calculate the school. I will say, I don't think those citizen tests are very difficult. Question for Melania. What are the names of the other models who worked for Paolo Zampoli when you did? Who organized his bookwork? Who else worked with him in his modeling agency? Were the specific photographers he used? Where did you live while working for him? What client homes did you visit?

What are the names of people you traveled with when you were going on modeling job? Very good. Who is that question from? That is from SGW 3612. Well, thank you for that because that is right on point. This isn't a question. But this is rather a good point from Margaret W. Block.

During the timeline when Trump and Epstein were buddies, Trump himself was very much a Democrat. I'm 84 years old and I remember him on the television constantly. And I was shocked when he suddenly turned Republican to run for president. So when he says he wants all these Democrats in the files identified, he was a Democrat. Good point. Very good point. Epstein, by the way, was a Republican. Was he? But he would be one of those fiscally, you know, fiscally responsible, obviously socially liberal.

Yes, he was just a business guy. Whatever, whatever was best for making money. And anybody with great questions like that, this is very helpful to the ongoing legal procedure against the First Lady. Thank you. We'll be broadcasting again on Saturday. Great. Thank you all. And don't forget to subscribe, leave us a comment and tell all your friends. Over Thanksgiving, as you're trying to figure out what on earth to discuss with your relatives, why don't you send them a copy of Inside Trump's header ahead of time?

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