The Daily Beast Podcast - How Trump’s Insurrection Act Threat is Backfiring

Episode Date: January 18, 2026

Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles to unpack Trump’s latest high-stakes drama: the Insurrection Act and his escalating presence in American cities. From Minneapolis as ground zero to ICE agents wielding “absolute immunity,” Wolff breaks down how conflict and chaos have become Trump’s strategy, not his mistake. Joanna and Wolff explore the administration’s doubling down, the Democratic Party’s faltering response, and the curious absence of figures like Barack Obama and George W. Bush—two leaders with the authority to counter Trump’s moves. They also trace Trump’s foreign entanglements, from Venezuela to Iran, and the surprising ways reality continues to diverge from his proclamations. With Trump’s threats backfiring at home and abroad, the conversation exposes a presidency ruled by drama, distraction, and the relentless pursuit of power. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

He doesn't really care what it makes him look like. Are all of the headlines about him? If they are about him, they are about nobody else. Now, this is a curious moment, which is why he has to ramp this up, because the headlines are also about this poor woman. Renai Nicole Good. How does he get away from that? Trump, again, just the opposite.

Let's not walk this back at all. Let's double down. Let's have the headlines about the Insurrection Act, rather than about this poor woman. Michael. Joanna. Hard to be flippant on a morning like this. We always try to be cheerful,

but it does seem that the situation in Minneapolis is getting worse, that there's a lot of provocation going on, and it's unnerving. You know, once again, Minneapolis is ground zero, and I think that that may not be coincident. You know, I think that the Trump people, the MAGA people, for them, Black Lives Matter, has always been a particular, I almost insult to them. And not only that, but I think a point of conflict that that they've found that they've, that has been very useful. to them. These kinds of conflicts with what they consider the left in whatever iteration,

black left, white left, it doesn't make any difference, I think is a thing that goes to the heart of MAGA and the heart of what they believe gives them their identity. And so I think that they, that they're finding this at this point, this is a fight that they want to have, which is awfully scary. And, you know, I think, well, let's go back to ground zero. This is, this is, this is fundamental. And then this idea of extending this. And there's no back down on their part, which is the other extraordinary thing. I mean, this terrible thing has happened. A woman lost her life in, at best, highly ambiguous circumstances. But there is no acknowledgement on the part of anyone in the administration, that there are any questions here, that they ought to have done anything differently, that there is reason to be.

back off in any way to take at least a couple of steps backward. Quite the opposite. And now this whole idea of, of, of, I don't even know what it is. It's essentially an on-the-fly policy decision that ICE agents have absolute immunity. And let's begin to ask, what does absolute immunity mean? it means that here is an internal police force that is answerable to only one person, the president of the United States. And beyond that, there is no recourse here for anybody. Well, it's also hard to, I understand that Donald Trump is doing what he always does and

his goons around him always do, which is to double down on something like this. But the video is so strong that I think it sort of jumps over their doubling down. I mean, people are genuinely horrified by this as they should be because you see Jonathan Ross, the ICE agent, firing into the face of a mother driving her Honda pilot out of the way three or possibly four times. You hear it three times. The report coming out today saying it was actually four times he shot. Again, why is everybody armed in America? Something very difficult for Europeans.

Absolutely. All of this could not be truer. And the numbers that we are seeing say that a good part of the country absolutely sees it this way. They see the same video. They see what has happened here. they see that the response in any language, from whatever point of view, a ideological point of view, you come to this, this is an egregious overreaction. Yes, everybody sees this. But there is, and really, it's of maximum importance to understand that the Trump, Trump,

Trump and the Trump people take conflict. Conflict is their friend. Even if it appears that most of the country understands they are in the wrong, conflict itself, amped up, becomes their weapon. And this is where we are now. Again, nobody backing down in the White House or in the Trump administration. And instead doing the exact opposite, absolute immunity. This is not only, not only do they lie about what happened, our lying eyes. Right. But then they take a step further and say anything that an ICE agent does is that no,

there is no recourse. recourse against that, none whatsoever. We had an interesting report in the Daily Beast this week actually that suggested that, well, that said that actually ice agents themselves are now frightened by this, that people have really turned against them, that ice agents at one point took their jobs very seriously, they were proud to wear the uniform, and now they feel like they are targets.

And it's also interesting. I mean, your point about Minneapolis is a great one. I mean, Minneapolis feels like one of those very wholesome American cities. And interestingly, per capita, it has a very high percentage of headquarters of big American companies. I mean, Target, I remember visiting the Target offices there. United Health, sleep number, best by General Mills, big American companies. This isn't good for them either. I'm curious to know whether or not their CEOs are having back-channel conversations with the administration saying, what are you doing?

Because this is very disruptive for big companies. I don't think back-channel conversations. I don't think it matters. I mean, and that's what we're seeing. In an ordinary course of events, if something like this were to happen in any other government, there would be all of that. And there would be on the part of the government a kind of trying to. trying to walk this back, to mollify this, to, to, to apologize or to say. Well, I mean, all kinds of ways, not to, and this is the important thing, own it.

And they are doing the exact opposite thing. They want to own this. Right. There is this. We are right. You are wrong. We have the power to enforce our belief that we are right. you do not have the power to challenge us in any way.

And do you think that's because the president wants to use the Insurrection Act and force an even bigger conflict? Yeah, I do. I do. I mean, that is the, I mean, then this whole idea of the Insurrection Act, this is preposterous. There is no insurrection going on here. there is there is

you know some you know you know relatively minor resistance not major resistance relatively there's people blowing whistles

there's people blowing whistles relatively minor resistance to to what's what's happening so no let's amp this up we're going to do

the insurrection act we're going to send in we're essentially going to take over Minneapolis. We've already sort of taken it over, but now we're really going to take it over. It is going to become an occupied city in the United States. And then that would give us all power. There is, speaking of absolute immunity, this would be absolute, absolute immunity. Do you think that Trump is doing this because the Supreme Court said he couldn't send

the National Guard into Chicago and L.A. and Portland? It's this their response? Well, I mean, I don't think. I think the response is just, I mean, again, I always try to remove this from, everybody wants to see this through the, through a prism of political and policy and strategic logic. Trump wants to see this through the prism of conflict and drama and distraction and distraction and statement. So I think, I mean, the, I mean, the insurrection act, this is now, you know, it is, we're still at the point of rhetorical threat. And, and that commands the headlines for, for a couple of days. Will they? actually do that. I mean, you have to think through and someone inside the White House is actually

probably thinking through what the Insurrection Act actually means and the troops on the ground and the cost and the possible fallout from them. I hope someone is thinking about this. Trump, from his point of view, is just thinking about the conflict and the drama and what that gets him. Well, it gets him a lot of attention, right? And I think he thinks it makes him look like a strong man as opposed to it makes him look like he's doing this to create distraction from Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. Yeah, well, it also is, as I've said, you know, many times. And again, we're reading into this, what does this make him look like? He doesn't really care what it makes him look like. Is it, is he the dominant thing? all of the headlines about him.

If they are about him, they are about nobody else. Now, this is a moment. This is actually a curious moment, which is why he has to ramp this up, because the headlines are also about this poor woman, as they, as they should be. And, you know, I think that, I think that, so the question is, how does he get away from that? And again, in most administrations, you would want to get away from this and you would walk this back and you would hold an investigation and you would try to identify wrongdoing, although you would probably not identify yourself as the wrongdoer, but you would identify someone as the wrongdoer.

Trump, again, just the opposite. Let's not walk this back at all. let's double down, let's increase the drama, let's have the headlines about the Insurrection Act rather than about this poor woman. So what do you think of the Democrats' response? We've got the mayor. We've also got Tim Walts, who obviously was Carmelah Harris's vice president candidate, vice presidential candidate, who's announced that he's actually leaving the governor.

at the end of his term, so he's not standing again. Do you think that also plays into why Minneapolis? I mean, you've also got Amy Klobuchar, who ironically was the senator that sort of, you know, I can't remember the official role, but was the senator whose role it was to sort of run the inauguration. So she made the inauguration speech about moving on and unity and none of which has come to pass. Yeah, well, I mean, the Democratic response for so long has been incredibly weak, not focused. I mean, this has been a year of complete disarray for the Democrats, kind of shame, I suppose, for the Democrats, that they actually let Donald Trump become the president again.

But, you know, I mean, one of the things that I have been wondering about lately, let's just assume that we are at a Minneapolis's ground. zero. We are really at a critical moment. Of all the critical moments we have had in the past year, I think we're really at the, this is, I mean, I'm not sure how you would define this inflection point as different from the other inflection points, but it begins to feel. Moving the army into an American city is certainly an inflection point. defines that. And so the question I've been asking myself, and it seems to be like a very logical question if you think about the Democratic response and who in the Democratic Party has the

standing and the moral authority to respond to this. It's, well, where the fuck is Barack Obama? I think he's on the golf course. He's on the golf course. You know, yeah, playing golf. What? What does it take? I mean, isn't now the time? I'm kind of perplexed by that. So his response, and I've been putting together an essay about about this, which I think I'll finish and post in post tomorrow. Today is Friday. So on tomorrow, tomorrow, Saturday. So on tomorrow, Saturday. but I am, how do, if you're Barack Obama, how do you justify this? Do you say things are, well, things are bad, but they're not as bad as they could be. So, you know, yes, I have a responsibility.

We all have a responsibility, but now is not the time to, now is not the time for me to spend my, to go into the bank and spend my, political currency. Yes. What can be thinking? What can he be thinking? Well, I'm sure he's thinking that past presidents are supposed to stay out of the way. he may be thinking why get involved when it looks like Donald Trump is imploding with the voters.

But it doesn't look like Donald Trump is imploding. That's crazy. And we know that when Donald Trump implodes, he does, he goes deeper. He doesn't implode. Well, is it safe to say that perhaps Obama, the Obama's, because Michelle could be very helpful here too. are saving their firepower for the midterms. And a word from our sponsors. And Michael Wolf and I are back inside Trump's head.

Well, yeah, I guess they can justify this. We're saving our firepower. But eventually, soon enough, you save it until it's too late. When is too late? Are they, do they have some, is that a measurement? Does Barack Obama wake up in the morning and think, well, yeah, I'm going to have to some time, but not, not yet. But what would you have him do?

Would you have him fly to Minneapolis and make a speech there, make one of his great rhetorical flourishes? Well, you know, he occasionally does. I don't want a rhetorical flourish. I mean, he occasionally does come out and makes these oracular pronouncements. What's the plan, man? You know, he is the person. There is only one person in the Democratic Party who,

can begin to assemble a consensus and a way to move forward here. One person, nobody else, and that is Barack Obama. And he ain't doing it. Well, we know he's playing a lot of golf. We know he's got a contract with Netflix. And I think they still have one with Spotify. So he's supposed to be making content. Yeah, playing golf and hanging out in Hollywood.

Come, I mean. Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I'm wondering also, what's happened? Let's not just put this on Barack Obama. I was just going to say, I hope you're coming to George W. Bush. Yes, there is another president here who has much at issue or more since, you know, Donald Trump has ruined or stolen the Republican, the entire Republican Party that his family has called home for so many generations.

And clearly, you know, it is not as if George Bush is saying, well, you know, in the Republican family, you know, you have to allow for this and Donald Trump. He thinks Donald Trump is, he thinks of Donald Trump with as much contempt as we do and as Barack Obama does. So these two guys, the two guys with a particular authority at this point, authority that they haven't used. You know, I mean, Clinton and Biden have their own issues. Well, they both seem much older too. And I think they're not helpful at this point. Barack Obama is still youthful.

I mean, but it is this. I mean, certainly George W. Bush would move, were he to be emphatic in his position, in his contempt for Donald Trump, that would move Republicans. Were Barack Obama to step forward and take a leadership position against Donald Trump, that would move Democrats. So what are these guys doing? It would also move independence, some of whom voted for Donald Trump and some of whom also voted for Barack Obama. I was talking to a friend the other day who'd attended an interview at a J.P. Morgan event where Bill Clinton and George Bush, George W. Bush, were both being interviewed together. And, you know, it was off the record and so they were highly critical of Donald Trump and sort of, well, I bet you wish you had us guys back now. you gave us a hard time, but it's much harder now. And you do think, why aren't they coming out and saying

something? And I take your point about Bill Clinton. Well, he's older and he's frailer now. But again, he could have gone in front of the oversight committee and said, I'm not the guy you want to talk to about Jeffrey Epstein. You should be talking to Donald Trump. Why aren't you talking to Donald Trump? That was the friendship. That was the friendship for 15 years, very close friends. Why aren't you talking to the president? It's, I mean, whatever. I mean, the Clinton thing, Clinton is, damaged goods, let's face it. You know, he's got Epstein all over him. That's not the issue.

I mean, we can, yeah, sure, they should do whatever that they, whatever they can do. But the two voices, the two big guns, the two meaningful pillars of, of, what do we want to call it, resistance. Well, stability, I think. Well, I'm trying to work. I was going to say normalcy. but, you know, let's avoid these dull words. This is the two guys who could immediately make a meaningful difference, make a set up a meaningful, an immediate and meaningful counterpoint

to the Trump White House are, to say the very least. MIA. Yeah, it's interesting. Oh, I interviewed Jasmine Crockett, which will go out on the Daily Beast podcast tomorrow, or on Sunday, I should say, we're recording this on Friday, we'll go out on Saturday. Tomorrow we have a Sunday, we have a great interview actually with Jasmine Crockett, potential leader of, or one of the new leaders in the Democratic Party. She has not met or heard from the Obama's as she gets ready to run for Senate in Texas. She's had advice from Marmalah Harris. She's had advice from Joe Biden. She hasn't heard from the Obama's. Yeah, I just, it's, I mean, maybe they got a plan. Maybe we don't know. Maybe something's going on, going on somewhere.

But it does seem a long time to wait between now and November for the midterms. And it does feel, I agree, what are they doing? Either they're doing something in secret that they're not going to tell us or they're doing quite the obvious. They're doing bonkus, as you would. say, nothing. And, you know, the other thing, interesting is that apparently Obama and Bush have become quite friendly, if not outright, friends.

And it would be unlikely implausible that they don't talk about Donald Trump. And they don't, and they haven't at some level discussed what they don't. their responsibility is, maybe jointly. Maybe they don't want to get involved anymore. Maybe they feel like they've been there, done that, tried their best, done their thing, and don't want to do it anymore. Well, you know, I'm not sure that that's an option for them. Or, I mean, if so, it's a, they are spending their moral authority on that,

and it will go away. And, you know, I mean, this is a kind of kind of picture of, of, you know, of two guys, actually, you could write this play, that two-man play and two guys, the great and the good, resisting what history demands that they do. Right. Some have, what is that line? Some have greatness thrust upon them. And I can't remember what it is.

But yes, I mean, they may not want to do it. it, but they may not have any real choice. You know, I think also, you know, honestly, they're probably like everybody else, afraid of Donald Trump. Well, they may not know how to take him on too, right? I mean, you have to have a plan, as you say, what's the plan? But what would the plan be to take on Donald Trump? I mean, a plan is great, something.

But otherwise, you just have to signify by standing up and being willing to stand up and being the guy there and saying absolutely what you believe, express your contempt. And then invite Donald Trump to prosecute them. Bring it on. Make the confrontation clear. Bring it on. Well, there was a very strange moment in the White House, I thought, this week,

when Maria Carina Machado turned up gave Donald Trump her Nobel Peace Prize. And he sort of grabbed it, you know, greedily with a huge grin on his. No, that seemed, that seemed like, oh my God. And but then what is she doing there? What is she doing there? I mean, what is she? What an ass lick. I mean, you know, he has said, what more does he have to say?

I'm not interested in you. You're not going to do this. Right, you've got no respect. He literally said you have no respect. be the the legitimate democratic president of Venezuela. But I don't care about that. I don't care about democracy. I don't care about you.

I mean, he's been more dismissive than that. Well, you don't have the respect. You seem to have one of the beginning, right, from the beginning. But you don't have the respect. and yet she is there. She's not saying, come on. Why isn't she saying this? The issue is not oil.

The issue is democracy. Right. Well, and then, I mean, fascinatingly, the woman who is currently in charge of Venezuela, although we know that Donald Trump is in charge and Marco Rubio and Pete Higgsath have been put in charge, although Donald Trump truth so shaled out that he was the acting president of Venezuela,

But Delcee Rodriguez has said that if she was called to the White House, she would walk, she wouldn't crawl and prostrate herself as Machado has done. So it's a very peculiar, I think that Machado was ill-advised to do that. You know, she is just saying, and I think it's important, you know, she's just posturing. Yeah, of course. She's just being Trumpy. Both to Donald Trump and to the Venezuelan people. So, you know, she's, I was going to say she's much as much of an as much of an ass lick as Mashado is.

But she's at least not actually. She is just, I mean, that's the other confusing and horrifying and ironic point of this situation is that the people, the people who have been in power in Venezuela are still the people in power. in Venezuela. And nothing has changed otherwise, other than they seem to have bought off Donald Trump with some oil that apparently nobody wants. Yeah, it's sort of not regime change. It's sort of regime capture. And also what she getting out of it, she's getting the opportunity to run the country, whereas before she was the number two. Yeah, no. I mean, nothing changes. Everybody is, the people in the government are the same people in the government literally nothing changes Donald Trump, I'm taking over the country.

Well, he is not taking over the country. The country continues to run as it has been running. And in authoritarian fashion, the legitimate democratic leaders have continued to be excluded from the country and ever gratefully a commercial break. And I'm back with the Donald Trump chronicler, Michael Wolfe, and we are where else inside Trump's head. You know, the irony I thought was that Trump had that meeting for all the oil executives on the Friday of last week where he was encouraging everybody to bring

investment to Venezuela, of which of course he is the acting president. And yet the very next day, the State Department told Americans who were in Venezuela to leave. Because Americans, you know, gangs were stopping cars on the streets of Venezuela to look for Americans. Well, obviously, it's an enormously unstable situation and has been for some time and continues to be. without, you know, and again, what are we doing there? We're not there. We're not. So this is just once more Trump saying, saying this is reality when that has nothing to do with reality. So what do we know about what's happening in Iran in terms of American intervention or not intervention and his reassurance last week, help is on the way. If you are protesting, keep protesting, help is on the way.

And yet there has been no help. Again, you know, this is the rhetorical Trump administration without any plan whatsoever. So the threat we're going to, you know, if you kill people, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to do terrible things to you. unspecified terrible things. And then they did. They've killed an enormous number of people. What are we going to do? Well, apparently we are going to do nothing except in Trump command of reality saying that the killing has stopped. And with some implied credit going to Trump for stopping the killing, which clearly has not stopped. Then, and then these threats, The entire region has apparently coalesced into a consensus to beg the Trump administration not to do anything. So what were those initial threats about?

Well, clearly they were not about anybody knowing anything about the dynamic of the situation in the region itself. I continue to be, I'm not sure where you can get to on this when you're dealing with something that is, that has no bearing on reality at all. Whatever comes out of Trump's mouth is separate from what will happen. And meanwhile, Mark Carney, the new Premier of Canada, has reached an agreement with, China for a new trade deal. So as the Trump administration gets odder and more peculiar, other people are just getting on with business as normal, which is going to have a bad impact on the American economy. Yeah. And even MAGA, you know, even the MAGA crew down on Wall Street are all freaking out about the charges being brought against Jerome Powell,

chairman of the Fed, who's only got to hang on until May, but who is now being prosecuted for alleged corruption in the refurbishment of one of the federal buildings. Yes, totally. So Barack Obama, where are you? Speak to me, Barack. So if there's anybody listening who knows the Obama's or who knows people around the Obama's, we would love to know what is their plan, what are they doing? Are they just hanging out now as celebrities in Hollywood and Hawaii and hanging out with the Netflix crew. What are you doing, Obama's? Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure anyone talking to the Obama's is going to tell us this, but it's a very good question. It's a very good question. Do they have any obligation to get

engaged and if not then, if not now, when and if not them, who? I will say there is a new group of much younger leaders. I mentioned I'd interviewed Jasmine Crockett. I also interviewed Graham Platner. That interview will go out on Monday. He's the 41-year-old insurgent candidate in Maine, not

chosen by the Democratic establishment. They've backed Governor Janet Mills who's been a good governor of Maine but she's 77. She would be 78. She would be the oldest senator ever going into the Senate. And Graham Platner is a marine. He's got an oyster business up there. And he's,

you know, he's full of energy because he sees the current system in the Democratic Party not working for him. It's very interesting to see this new group of leaders. And you go from a 77-year-old to a 41-year-old with apparently nothing in between. Well, Barack Obama is in between. Barack Obama is in between, but as you have said, he is nowhere to be seen. He is nowhere to be seen. But let's let's sum this up because I think it's vital. There is a situation going on. Minneapolis has become ground zero for the draconian Trump presence in American cities, and it has become ground zero for a true, what seems like a true resistance to those actions and policies.

We're at, I think we're literal, this is a point. And Minneapolis, again, like Black Lives Matter, this becomes a moment, a potentially national viral moment. And in a moment, and in a moment, that kind of calls for people to stand up. And maybe it's the moment for us all to march on Washington. Like you're always saying, why aren't people doing that? I mean, various people have pointed out in our comments on YouTube

that there are protests going on all over the country. Funnily enough, I was in Mount Kisco, which is a dormitory town just north of New York on Saturday, and there was an ice protest. It was a group of very well-dressed people all blowing whistles and signs saying ice. So there definitely are protests going on. I think it's where people go to sleep, but there isn't much life.

I know we're now going to hear from people in Mount Kissco saying it's not true. I think a dormitory town is where people essentially work in places like New York City or white plains and go back to their towns to sleep. That must be a British expression. I've never heard this expression, except a college town. No, a dormitory town is where people sleep. but essentially their work life is somewhere else. I know I get the I get the principle. I'm just challenging the language.

Anyway, there was a protest there of probably sort of maybe 60 to 100 people. No, I mean we know. There are protests going on. That's what I'm saying. No, I mean, I mean, I have just thinking, and we've talked about this before, I think it's worth talking talking about again that historically protests have worked. when essentially the business of government is stopped. They can't ignore it.

I mean, this protests around the country, yeah, great, everybody, it's meaningful, but it can be ignored. And the Trump administration has successfully ignored them. Ten million people in Washington, a million people in Washington, but this is, in these extreme circumstances, I think an extreme number of people would certainly be helpful, would stop the government. I think local politicians take note.

And we've, you know, we have, as we've talked about before, a record number of people leaving Congress because they just don't want to deal with this anymore. Okay, Michael, it's time to go. I want to thank everybody who's sent in Limericks. We mentioned in our last couple of podcasts that we have a regular limerick writer, the limerick laureate, Garfried, who sends us a limerick after every episode. And you suggested that other people write in limericks. So we've had dozens of limericks come.

I was going to read some of them, but today it feels a bit, it feels a bit gloomy to read. Is it too gloomy or should I read a couple? I think it's too gloomy. Let's do limericks on Tuesday. Well, everybody can look forward to that. We've got limericks. We've also got some high cue, and we've also got some regular poems with iambic pentameter.

Someone heard me. But we have a very literate group of listeners and viewers. So I want to commend everybody's efforts and thank you, and we'll go through them on Tuesday and Thursday next week. Great. But for now, it's time to get out there and protest, wherever you are. So, Michael, I hope you finish your. essay on Barack Obama and George W. Bush. I look forward to reading it. Are you going to post it on

Substack? Yeah. Probably tomorrow. All right. I will look forward to reading that. And if you have been, thank you for joining us. Please leave us a comment on YouTube. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and to The Daily Beast. I say this every time, but it's true. We are independent media and we really appreciate your support. And we want to thank you. And we want to thank our production team. Michael, do you want to thank them? I always feel it means a bit more if it comes from you because they see me every day.

And then it's a challenge for me to remember their names, which I... Can you remember the words from the Moka test we took? School, white... I just remember school and white. Legs. Legs. Leg, cotton, school, tomato, white. Actually, that

makes me feel a bit better that I can remember those. Leg school, cotton, tomato white. Wednesday evening, we will be, Joanna and I will be live at the 92nd Street Y in New York City on 92nd Street and Lexington Avenue. And we'd love to see everybody. Most of all, we'd love to see a full house. It is www.92nd.org. And you can get tickets for... To be there or tickets or virtual tickets. Wherever you are, if you're not on 92nd in Lexington, on Wednesday night. I'm looking forward to it.

I'm looking forward to it. Thank you, Devin, Rachel. Heather. Heather. One more. Ryan. Ryan. She says yes.

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