The Daily Beast Podcast - I Know Why Trump Made Epstein His Best Friend

Episode Date: December 31, 2025

Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles to trace the unsettling origins of Donald Trump’s relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, long before public scandal or denial. Wolff begins with their bond in the late-1980s New York, where Trump was chasing Manhattan legitimacy and Epstein was emerging as a fixer fluent in money, women, and leverage. From Trump introducing Epstein as “my associate—Jeffy,” a pattern forms of shared ambition, cruelty, and secrecy. Wolff links those early dynamics to Trump’s financial near-collapse in the 1990s and Epstein’s claim that he helped Trump survive bankruptcy while keeping his tax returns hidden. If Epstein helped shape Trump’s instincts before power, what does that say about the secrets that still follow him now? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

At Mar-a-Lago, they have a beauty contest for what they call what they're calling calendar girls. And they recruit all of these girls to come down to Mar-a-Lago for this beauty page. When the girls get there, they find that it's an audience that consists of two. And it's only Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. Michael. Joanna. So this is a special episode. we thought we would do some special episodes throughout the holidays.

And this is one that is going to trace the relationship of Donald Trump, our current president, with Jeffrey Epstein, who died mysteriously, or possibly not, in one of America's worst jails. And the Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, as Donald Trump refers to it, of it all, is the one thing that has consistently, unsettled him all year. Well, the other thing is, you know, I mean, we've gone from his complete denial about a relationship with Epstein. And to a understanding,

I think many people seem now to understand this and the evidence in emails, in other documentary material. establishes this, in fact, a very close relationship. And certainly in my conversations with Epstein, he was always very particular about the fact that they were the closest of friends for well over a decade. Right.

So where do we begin, Michael? Let's begin at the beginning. And I actually have a beginning. Were you there at the beginning? Nothing would surprise me. I was not there, but a very close friend of mine was there. And this would have been in the late 80s, probably 1988. And it was in a restaurant downtown.

And my friend was there. and my friend was there with a man by the name of Charles Allen. Now, Charles Allen is the father of possibly the uncle, it occurs to me, of Herbert Allen, who now runs Allen in company. And Charles Allen was, in fact, the founder of Allen and company. So one of the senior most financiers in New York City. And at this point in the late 80s, Charles Allen was emeritus, I think, in the firm quite old at this point. But very much still a presence in New York. Someone, anyone who is in the money-raising business, and Trump was certainly,

and the money-raising business would know and want to know. Okay. And Donald Trump at this point was what, a well-known real estate developer. Was he sort of at the beginning of peak Trump? Was this when he was on the front of the New York Post all the time? Yeah. I mean, I think the art of the deal was in 1989. So that would have been the first flowering.

of Donald Trump's, Donald Trump's fame. But he was a person trying to do deals in New York, had done a few significant, I think he had done the Commodore Hotel. That was his first major, major project. And he was very much on the scene and trying to be on the scene. Okay. So Charles Allen brings them together.

No, no, no. Charles Allen is just in a restaurant in New York, having dinner just without nothing to do with Donald Trump, except Donald Trump then comes into the restaurant and greets Charles Allen. And the important part, introduces him. I'd like you to meet my associate, Geoffie Epstein. Jeffie, Jeffie. Let's note the Jeffie. The Jeffie of it all.

The Jeffie of it all. So that's the first moment that I can put Trump and Epstein together. A witness, somebody I know, a piece of dialogue. there it is. And two people, very much at the intersection with an important person in New York City.

So Trump was sufficiently friendly with him that he was calling him Jeffie, even in 1988. And my associate. So it was a kind of, you know, I mean, clearly they have a relationship, possibly a business relationship,

a flirtatious, relationship, I don't know the nature of the relationship, except that that would indicate both Jeffie and my associate that we are not, that we are well inside of an established friendship. Okay, and Jeffrey and Donnie are two boys out on the town? Two boys out on the town, yes. So the next point at which I can put them. together is a story that Epstein told. And I think this occurs in not long after, maybe 89,

possibly 90. Trump's father makes him look at a piece of real estate in Brooklyn. Now, Trump's entire thing is to get out of. the boroughs to establish, which is where his father's real estate business has flourished. And Queens, right? I think in probably all the boroughs. It just is, Fred Trump was active everywhere but in Manhattan because Manhattan was too expensive to glamour, you know, the glamour premium. You know, Fred Trump was a low-rent real estate guy. And he was not looking to be what Donald Trump came to look to be, which is a glamour guy. Donald Trump wanted the spotlight.

Fred never wanted the spotlight, just wanted the profits. And Fred was always unhappy that his son was pursuing this Manhattan dream. And at this point in time, then was trying to restrain him. go look at this piece of property in Brooklyn. So Trump calls up his friend Jeffrey and says, you know, I got to do this. You know, will you come with me? And possibly he said, and bring some girls. Because Trump then shows up in the limo in front of where Jeffrey Epstein lives,

which is on the east side, not in the big house, he would come to inhabit, but in an apartment on, I believe, on 69th Street, but I could be wrong. In a starter apartment considering what would become of his real estate portfolio? Yes, yes. I thought you were going to say in the Sinatra apartment, because Sinatra apartment then had an apartment over there. also in a in a in a in a a building that epstein could have inhabited but anyway um so trump trump shows up the limousine uh and the the the the detail is that the the limousine has a

a what is that called sliding roof right sunroof right and so he pulls up and Epstein is outside waiting for Trump and he is with two girls. And each girl's has a large dog on the leash. Each girl has a large dog on the leash? Yes. And as I recall in the telling they are Afghans. So and Trump stands up, puts his head through the, through the roof of the limousine and says, no dogs, no dogs. Of course he did, because Trump is a man who's never had a relationship with an animal, let alone a dog, man's best friend.

And Epstein says, no dogs, no girls. So that results in them all, Trump makes his decision, dogs, girls, and they all pile into the limousine and head to Brooklyn to look at this piece of real estate. And as I recall in Epstein's telling it's a piece of, it's a piece of land. There may be buildings on it, but it's basically a large track of land. And as they look at it, Epstein says to Trump, if you buy this, if you become a Brooklyn real estate developer, I don't want to have anything to do with you ever again. What? This is it. You decide between you, your decision is between me and Brooklyn.

And remember, Epstein comes from Brooklyn. This must be, this must be apocryphal. Oh, I don't think so. Why would it be? I mean, it makes perfect sense. Epstein is from Brooklyn. Neither of them want to return to Brooklyn. Brooklyn is glamorous now.

Then it was not. Get me out of Brooklyn. And Trump certainly didn't want to be. there because his, you know, he was only there because his father was instructing him, this is what you have to, you have to do. And Epstein doesn't want to be there because he wants to have nothing to do with, with, with Brooklyn. And, and I think this goes to the, their kind of relationship, which is, which is competitive, but they're kidding each other, but it's, it's, it's something is going on.

A set of insults back and forth. That, I mean, that rings quite true. Well, and I suppose it shows a kind of intimacy, too, that Epstein felt comfortable saying to Trump, it's me or Brooklyn. And Trump thinking, of course, I don't want to be in Brooklyn, I want to be the center of attention in Manhattan. Exactly.

And then Trump says, no, I'm not. going to, you know, I'm just doing this. My father is just making me do this, and this is never going to happen. And then they head back to Manhattan, and I believe, and they end up at a restaurant, a restaurant called Mortimer's, which was on 75th and Lexington. Right, which was peak Upper East Side at the time, I think. the society restaurant of the 1980s and 90s. And they are turned away.

They're turned away. Why are they turned away? Because they have two enormous Afghan dogs. Well, it could be because of the dogs or it could be because it's Donald Trump. It's not, you know, he has not yet arrived. And he still looked at. as a guy from the boroughs. Right, an Arab East.

Right. So they're very, very, so Trump is very unhappy with this. Furious, actually. Well, unhumiliated. Humiliated. And that is, so that's the end of this. That's what I know of that story. So a bad day all round, forced by his father to go in exact.

in a piece of real estate in Brooklyn, he never wants to buy, forced by his friend to take two Afghan dogs in his stretch limo that he doesn't want. And then he's rejected from a posh restaurant, which would symbolize his arriving in Manhattan. And in fact, he was rejected and humiliated. It's a little bit like what happened to him at the 2011 White House Correspondence dinner when Barack Obama humiliates him by poking fun at him. It's a consistent theme throughout his life, revenge.

And the theme, he is always trying to use his own fame and notoriety to counter that. And in fact, that's the next moment that I know of in his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. and I'm unclear on who knows who first. But this is the moment at which Robert Maxwell, the father of Galane Maxwell. And the disgraced British tycoon. Yes, steps in. He's not disgraced yet.

Quite the opposite. He is at the top, the pinnacle of his moment in time. And I think this is 1990. And he steps forward. to buy the Daily News. Still a very significant newspaper. I mean, people barely know the Daily News exists at this point. Right.

Hard to remember. It was then, you know, a significant newspaper. You could argue, actually, it was the largest circulation newspaper in New York at the time. And clearly, in Donald Trump's interest, I mean, Donald Trump becomes a, Donald Trump, basically because of the attention of the New York tabloids. So he, and again, I'm not sure who knew Maxwell first, whether it was Epstein, whether it was Trump, whether this is the moment that Epstein meets Maxwell,

gets introduced to the Maxwell family, which obviously would have, repercussions decades later. But Trump becomes or represents himself to Maxwell as someone who can help get this deal done. He knows the he knows the real estate interests in New York. Real estate is a is a a major advertising category. He also knows union people. Union people and at that point in time, the newspapers were highly unionized. You couldn't do a deal if you didn't have the cooperations with the unions. And Michael, just remind us, who owned the New York Daily News at the time? Who was Maxwell buying it from?

I believe that was still owned at that point by the Tribune Company. Michael, I'm enjoying this trip down memory lane, the Maxwell's, the Daily News. It all seemed so much more innocent then. Well, yeah, I mean, these were two guys just trying to make it in the big city. I mean, it is really not more than that at this point in time. You know, I mean, Trump was building a profile. Epstein didn't have a profile. I'm not sure he did he want one.

Maybe. I don't know. But he was actually interested, you know, this whole idea of the daily news, of having an inn at a major New York newspaper, knowing the owner, getting involved in whatever. And remember, Maxwell was a crook. He would go on to be one of the great crooks of the time. How much were they attracted to that,

attracted to the, what would we call it, the not blue chip side of someone making his mark? Because they were both of them, not blue chip guys trying to make their mark. And this is fundamental to this, that they were both outsiders. Epstein and outsider, Trump and outsider, the guys from the boroughs trying to make it in Manhattan. So now, a couple of things happen here. First of all, Maxwell buying the dealings, Maxwell is a crook,

and he is shortly to be found out, and his ownership of the Daily News collapses. Well, he collapses first. He goes, he kills himself or is killed or slips and falls off of his yacht, called the Lady Galane, yes. And then he's, so anyway, so then the paper becomes a part of the estate, which is in bankruptcy. see, it's a, it's a disaster. But then Epstein, at this point, actually both Epstein and Trump,

stepped forward and get involved in the purchase of the paper by Mort Zuckerman, who's another real estate guy in New York, and Zuckerman and Epstein actually become close friends. Meanwhile, we should just point out not only does Robert Maxwell die in mysterious circumstances like Jeffrey Epstein goes on to do, but he pillages the pension fund of his British newspapers to the tune of half a billion dollars, which is an unheard of scam. Just the scale of the scam at the time was almost beggared belief. And of course, he was busy in his own way as an outsider trying to compete with Rupert Murdoch. So in the way that Geoffie and Donnie were hanging out, Robert Maxwell was in a battle to the death with Rupert Murdoch, but it turned out to be his own death. And a word from our sponsors. And Michael, Wolf and I are back inside Trump's head, examining his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

This is the moment when Trump's business. empire goes into extremists. So Trump's bankruptcies, Trump's, Trump has to manage and navigate several major bankruptcies at this time. I mean, deeply threatening to all of his, all of his interests, including the fact that he has personally guaranteed much of the of the, of the, of the, of, of the, of the, of, of the, of, of the, of the loans that the banks are now calling. And when you say his businesses, what were his businesses? Were these simply, I say simply, but were these purely real estate at this point? Purely real estate.

Well, and I mean, gambling, gaming, I mean, he has, you know, he's expanded, he's expanded into Atlantic cities. He has building projects in the city. But these are all, he has. He owns briefly an airline. So he has bought Eastern Airlines, why I remember all these businesses, the names of these businesses from a half a century ago,

I don't know. But Eastern ran the shuttle to Washington between New York and Washington, D.C. Oh, what a metaphor that he owned that corridor, that shuttle flight to Washington. Right. Well, he didn't own it for very long. Also a metaphor. As a matter of fact, as I recall, he missed his first payment. And then that went into bankruptcy. And that was itself a legal kind of how did this happen?

Because if you miss your first payment in a bankruptcy, that means basically pretty much you've lied about your sources of financing. It's not as if your business, the business, as you projected, did not do as well as you thought it would do and put you in extremis. But from the first day, you're an extremist. And so why that was, and actually Epstein would always chortle about that, how Trump got away with the eastern shuttle, or as it became, of course,

the Trump shuttle. But it wasn't only that. There was a whole set of bankruptcies. You know, the Atlantic City bankruptcies, the problems with New York real estate, and the fact that suddenly he owed the banks

a billion dollars. Wow. Now, this is where Epstein gets kind of deeply involved with Trump's, with Trump's businesses, which is that, you know, what am I going to do? Trump is like, what am I going to do? And it was then Epstein's suggestion, one of the key things. So he managed basically, I mean, his bank, his, his, his situation was so extreme that, that effectively the banks had to agree to take a bath on this.

That they said, we are going to forgive you these debts. Now, how that came about is another story, which I think is completely unclear. But they forgave him these debts up to about a billion dollars. And when, so the problem there, though, is when the banks forgive you your debts, that becomes income. You have to pay taxes on it, in theory. And obviously, if, and or would seem apparent, that if you can't pay, if you don't have a billion dollars to return to the banks,

you probably don't have the half a billion dollars that taxes on that money is going to cost. And it was, again, Epstein Chordeling, his claim that he was the one who told Trump that actually none of this, because of the nature of this, you really haven't gotten the money. It never has come in as income and exists, and forgiveness sort of exists in a different order of ether unknown to the IRS, that you just don't have to pay it, which Epstein would then come to later maintain was one of the key reasons that we've never, to this date,

have never seen Donald Trump's tax returns. How is it possible that we haven't seen his tax returns? How is it possible? How is all of this possible? How is any of this possible? Yeah, that's true. I'm finishing your sentences at this point. It's horrifying.

It's horrifying and it's fascinating. So what was Jeffrey Epstein doing at this stage? I mean, obviously he was, was he post the Ponzi scheme that he got caught up in but managed to avoid and someone else went to jail at this point? Hoffenberg, a man, a gentleman by the name of Hoffenberg. Right. No, this would have been just about the same time. Right. So they were both caught up in weird financial scams.

Weird, weird financial. No, and it's important to understand that that's what these guys are. guys, to not be blue chip. So everybody understands. Blue chip is, you know, your financing is in, you know, your collateral is, is sufficient. You have relationships with, with established banks and bankers, with your, what you're supposed to be. You are part of a financial establishment. these two guys are not. And people in the real estate business are often, you know, there's blue chip real estate guys, and then there's guys who are not blue chip real estate guys.

Trump very much not a blue chip real estate guy. And remember, this is a moment in time, you know, a great debt bubble, which is in the process at this moment in time of, of bursting, although there will be many debt bubbles afterwards. But in which there was, you could, if you were willing to, what would be the, let's think of the, if you could fake it, if you were of the fake it till you make it variety, it was a pretty good time, except when the bubble burst,

then you get, then you get caught out. And Epstein himself, what did he do? What was his business background? Certainly not blue chip. I mean, it's always the questions, the questions equally about Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein are always, where did the money come from? How did they get this money? You know, I mean, I mean, Epstein would later describe when Donald Trump bought Mar-a-Lago. He bought it from essentially a loan provided by construction unions in New York against promises of work that he would deliver. All of this, again, is... less than blue chip. Less than blue chip. And it's possibly illegal even.

But you're always straddling the line here. And remember Donald Trump, who's been in litigation throughout the entirety of his career, this became his fundamental talent. I can walk the line. You know, and walking the line means not only that you have to have the moral flexibility

to do that, but you also have to have the stomach for it because, you know, people are going to come after you you, because you're going to, people are going to try to hold you accountable for that. And Michael, we've had on the Daily Beast podcast over the last few months two women that hung out with Epstein and said that Epstein would take them almost as trophy girlfriends. They were both models, both gorgeous. One was Stacey Williams. who was a sports illustrated model. The other Cleo Glide, who was a model for Eve Saint Laurent. She was a muse there.

And they both described going with Jeffrey Epstein, walking down Fifth Avenue, when he was by this point installed in his big house, and walking to Trump Tower and Donald Trump, certainly jumping on Stacey Williams and groping her in front of, Jeffrey Epstein, who then did nothing, did nothing and then berated her in the elevator on the way down, shouting at her, why did you let him do that?

You know, I think this would have been just in the, keeping the chronology straight a bit later. I think that house comes into his possession in, you know, it could be a year or two off, but I think it's about 96. Okay. So maybe they didn't set off from the house then because they were both models in the late 80s, early 90s. But they describe walking down Fifth Avenue. And Cleo Glyde was wearing a short white dress. And listeners of that podcast will remember, he said, oh, my God, you look like a nurse.

You look like a nurse. Donald liked this. Do you have another friend who can wear a similar dress? And I'm going to arrive at his house and pretend your two nurses. is. Totally. And that was always, I mean, first thing that Epstein was always in a, in a, like that kind of gag. Right. He was a big, he was a big gag guy. But it was sort of evidence of them playing with women, toying with women, and being in on, in on the joke together. Yeah. At this point, that's what, I mean, that becomes, I mean, there are two, two basis of their

relationships, really, money and, and. Money and. women and women. And as a matter of fact, so in 1992, I believe, I mean, this is right after, you know, this is the Daily News, the Trump, the bankruptcies doing all of the, whatever they're doing. But in 1992 is the famous calendar girl party, which is that they have, what is the calendar girl party. You know, at Mar-A-Lago, they have a beauty contest for what they call what they're calling calendar girls. And they recruit all of these girls to come down to Mar-a-Lago for this beauty pageant. And when the girls get there, they find that there are only, it's an audience that consists of two. and it's only Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein.

Donnie and Jeffrey. And this would, so this would be at Mara Lago in, in 1992. But again, all, it's always the girls, the beauty pageant girls, the models is a foundation of this. And there's a story from about this time, you know, 92, 93-ish, when, um, that, that Epstein told about Trump at a, at a night place, nightclubish,

I, you know, a sort of a restaurant, but, you know, a hot place, um, at that time called the China club. Mm-hmm. Um, and, um, uh, and Epstein says, um, and this is later, he's telling this, he's telling this. He's no longer Trump's friend and is painting Trump is much more despicable than he is. And he describes Trump as going behind the bar and effectively attacking the bartender in rather in public view. A woman bartender or a male bartender. A woman bartender.

Attacking a woman bartender. Yes. coming up behind her, you know, that let's, let's not go. Oh, that's old trick, the coming up behind you. Yes. Right. And this is the period. So this is in because of 93,

94. And, you know, Marla Maples is now coming into this picture. But it is also the moment in which Epstein and Trump are sharing a girlfriend. This is

a Norwegian model and who, whatever the arrangement is, back and forth. I mean, again, they are playing with someone and they are, this is their shared, not only girlfriend, but kind of a shared joke. And I think, you know, there's reason, it's, you know, I would say sort of likely that his reference to this secret that we have in the birthday letter. So remember, the birthday letter is in 1993. Right. Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday. And the birthday letter from Trump to Jeffrey Epstein. And he refers to our secret. A wonderful secret. A wonderful secret. Okay. And that was

the Norwegian girlfriend they both shared. Well, we can, it would not be unlikely. that that is what the reference is. And that seemed to be a theme for Jeffrey Epstein too, because he and Prince Andrew, or the Andrew formerly known as Prince, also shared Gillesne Maxwell at one point. I mean, Trump and Andrew. No, I mean, Jeffrey Epstein and Prince Andrew also shared Gillen Maxwell.

So this was one of Epstein's things that he was quite happy to share girlfriends with male friends. I think, yeah, no, I think he was, which that makes, you know, I mean, the last thing that Jeffrey Epstein wanted with any of these women was permanence. Right. That's what he was most, he was allergic to. And let's take a commercial break.

And you're back with Michael Wolfe and me inside Trump's head, a place you may never have expected to be. But here we are. And we're examining his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. At one point in my conversations with Epstein, with Epstein when he was looking for how to rehabilitate his reputation. And what could he do? What could – I said, well, you could get married and have a family. And he said, I would rather go back to jail.

Well, lucky for him he made the right choice then. Yes. He said to you, I would – rather go back to jail. They lived in this world in which there was no pretense and no value at all to domesticity. Just the very idea was contrary to everything. And this is both Trump and Epstein, everything that they wanted to achieve. And Marla Maples now comes into the, into the,

picture. Trump is married to Ivana. The marriage is, you know, I think probably principally in name only at this point. But he becomes involved with Marla Maples. There, we've discussed this, I think we've discussed this before. There's references this to the the in the in the in the um epstein emails marla maples becomes pregnant um or she tells trump that she's pregnant uh trump goes to his friend epstein and says what am i going to do um epstein says um she's not pregnant that's just what they tell you to to um to get you to marry them and um you know if she's if she's pregnant i'll send you uh you you know, a year's supply of, I'll bet a year's supply of, I think, baby food, diapers.

And at any rate, Trump then actually confirms that she is pregnant and then goes back to Epstein and says, well, what am I going to do now? So at any rate, so he comes back to Epstein and says, hey, you know, I think I'm kind of screwed here. She really, really is pregnant. And so they go into a big debate about what can he do in that situation. How do you convince her to get an abortion? How do you, I mean, it's sort of both tragic and comical to imagine these guys who have no sensitivity to this whatsoever. no idea actually of how you think about something like this.

But at any rate, it actually results again here in some kind of old-fashioned notion of what you have to do of Trump getting married to Marla Maples and she has a child. And then subsequently, of course, they get a divorce. Right. So the child is Tiffany. And of course he got divorced from Ivana, got married to Marla, got divorced from Marla, married Malania. And then we come into the to the Melania period. And so Epstein and Trump, what they are doing, you know, the fact that suddenly he's become, you know, married to Marla Maples is not an impediment to, to, to. the life they otherwise lead. I mean, it is a life of an inconstant pursuit of women. And Epstein himself at this point

is more and more involved with Les Wexner and Victoria's Secret and all of the, all, and the whole new world of models that that opens up to him. And they become both of them involved in modeling agencies, financing modeling agencies, essentially establishing this conduit to unlimited number of women, girls,

because they are models of uncertain age. So Michael, we've covered a lot of ground here. from them arriving in Brooklyn with two Afghan dogs in a stretch limo to Donald Trump owning a modelling agency, Jeffrey Epstein having an investment in a modeling agency, Trump owning Miss Universe, them having models, audition for just the two of them. And now we hit the Melania years.

I wonder if this is a good time to end this episode and then pick up next time. on part two of the relationship between Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. It's a good place to end because this is, this is, Melania actually begins the next phase of Donald Trump's life, which of a phase he's still depending upon how you look at it in. Does he wear night goggles, night vision goggles? Because Santa likes a green. I can't stop.

my Instagram feed is full of people miming her reading that book. And it is remarkable that she still struggles so with the English language when she's been here 30 years. I'm not saying I can speak Slovenian and I know that she can speak five other languages, but English ain't one of them. We have never heard them. Well, of course we've never heard them, but we have heard her English. And for someone who's been here 30 years, it's complicated. But obviously she spoke Slovenian to her parents when they were here, a father still here, and Slovenian to Barron, too. Michael, I hope you're having a very happy holiday season. I imagine you running around with little lanterns up and down the Hamptons, high streets, singing in parades. You know, that's me, Joanna. You got me.

I've got you. In fact, I know you're probably curled up in your study reading a pile of books. and I hope going back through all your notes on Jeffie and Donnie, but really Jeffie, Jeffie puts a whole new, a whole new face on their relationship. No, I mean, these are two guys joking around through the 80s and 90s. Two bad guys hiding in plain sight. Life is not a serious proposition for either of them, or it certainly doesn't seem, because it's, I suppose, not serious. It's sort of both guys on the grift

and both guys looking for women who then they're trying to get rid of. And then both guys bullying and threatening other men. Great guys. The best guys. Greatest guys. All right, Michael, go back to your Christmas pudding or whatever else you're eating. and let's recommence this conversation in a couple of days' time. Great. Good.

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