The Daily Beast Podcast - I Saw the Creepy Secrets of Epstein's Lairs: Wolff

Episode Date: August 7, 2025

Best-selling author Michael Wolff tells Joanna Coles what he saw inside Jeffrey Epstein’s infamous Manhattan townhouse and his lavish Paris apartment. From bizarre sights including a stuffed tiger and a stuffed baby elephant to a horrific fake corpse in the lobby, this is at home with a monster. On the sideboard, Epstein flaunted his easy access to the rich and powerful with pictures with princes—not just Andrew but Mohamed bin Salman—prime ministers and even a pope. Wolff and Coles unpack new pictures uncovered by the New York Times and Wolff’s own unparalleled access to Epstein’s homes and unravel how and why Epstein escaped attention for too long. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I said, you know, wow, this is an incredible place. At which point, he took his knuckle, he wrapped on the wall. And he said, fake. It's all fake. I'm Joanna Coles of The Daily Beast. This is the Daily Beast podcast. In a moment, we're going to get into it very deeply with Michael Wolfe talking about what else, but Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. But before we do, I'm just reminding you, subscribe, please, to our YouTube channel

and subscribe to the DailyBeast.com for up to the moment information on what's going on. We're independent media and we appreciate your support. Now, no time to waste. Let's get into it. Michael Wolfe, it's so good to have you in the studio. It's so much easier to talk to you in the studio. Thank you for coming in. Well, it's not easier for me since I have to come in. You do have to come in from your lovely house in now.

I, I, I, I, um, the proximity is, um, um, uplifting. It is uplifting. It's very uplifting. And so much as always to discuss. And I really wanted to start with the New York Times is peace on Epstein. We're recording this on Wednesday morning. And it came out on Tuesday morning because I was fascinated, A, that they're really leaning into this story, which they seem to have had at arm's length for a long time. But B, it was the first time I can think of where we really got fascinating shots of his interior. I mean, I didn't find that that story did not advance this story really at all, except that it was a kind of weird story about interiors. It could have been on the decorating page.

In another world, this would be in the style section, oh, a rich man's house. Yeah, Jeffrey Epstein invites this into his lovely home. Right. And there was the suggestion that there was something macabre about this. But in fact, if you looked at the pictures, it literally could have been the over-decoration of any billionaire in the city. Well, by the pictures, you mean not his art, which I want to come back to, because there was a significant lack of art, I thought, for someone as wealthy as that. We can talk about the art. Okay.

All right. Let's come back to talking about the art. But by pictures, I think you mean his sort of bragging credenza that everybody has in New York. Yes. I mean, the thing was, this is like the devil's lair, but it's a devil's lair that looks like any billionaire's house. All billionaire's house cast a certain way could be a devil's lair. And there are always photos of them with important people. Always. So we saw pictures of him and Bill Clinton. There was a picture of Larry Summers, the former president of Harvard and obviously Treasury Secretary.

There were pictures of Richard Branson, of Prince Andrew. Don't forget the Pope. Oh, and the picture of the Pope? Yes. Yeah, that was extraordinary. And I don't remember. Was there the picture there of him with Castro? Because that was, I don't know if they got that shot, but that was always there.

But that was always there. He was very pleased with. Well, they referred to it. And I was squinting to see it in the actual photo. But they definitely referred to it. So we've got the Pope. We've got Castro. We've got Richard Branson, Bill Clinton, Larry Summers.

MBS. MBS. Oh, that's who it was. Okay. Because there was a group of shakes. I couldn't identify it. No, no, no. Very, very significant, the MBS thing.

Because their connection, at least for a period, was, was quite close and I think that generated a lot of money for Epstein. Right. Once again, the mystery of where did he get his money from. And there was a picture of Woody Allen, who I know you've seen many times at Jeffrey Epstein's house. Yes. So what did we think of his decal? The taxidermied... I've seen many times. I only actually saw Woody there once.

Okay. What did we think of the taxidermid... tiger? Well, actually, I have also been in the Paris apartment on Avenue Fosch, which is, you know, a similarly decorated space. And the tiger is interesting, but more interesting in the Paris apartment, in the living room, in the living room was so big, you did not, you don't, you didn't immediately notice this. but on second glance there is a baby stuffed elephant. A real. A real baby elephant stuffed.

Which then Epstein would always say with that glint in his eye, the elephant in the room. Slightly speechless. Slightly speechless. Because the first time I looked at the tiger, I thought, oh, it's like one of those enormous toy tigers and I was sort of connecting it to the girls that were hanging out there but in fact it was a real tiger and it was a real elephant yeah and they come from there is a store in Paris that sells this kind of stuff of course the French sell with stuff of course they do but so and he always I mean that was you know Epstein's decor was not decor in the in I mean it was

it was really, let's take a whole house and just fill it with what we used to call in New Jersey. Conversation pieces. Conversation pieces. Right. Right. Conversation started. So there's no, there was no, I mean, the aesthetic was there, if you will, was always kind of at best. I'm not even sure it was vulgar.

It's more cockamamie. Right. Oh, I was going to say it didn't appear to have any coherence to it. And I was very struck by his bedroom with sort of, for those of you who haven't poured over the photos like I did, huge florals, I mean, sort of vast bedroom, especially vast for New York, and grey bedhead, a blue and white carpet, you can really tell I've studied this as stuff, sort of geometric carpet with like big squares, almost like a big graph paper. and then enormous florals on the wall, and it was all in blue and white,

and then a camera which they'd circled at the top of the right at the top of the wall on the cornucing, or on the border around the top of the wall. But the thing that I was really struck by, and I wanted to ask you about his art collection, was this piece of art, which was a model of a woman, a bit like a shop dummy, dressed in a wedding dress with a noose around her neck hanging from... Well, this seems to be hanging in the hall. It was like a Morris Catalan. Yes, it takes on some significance, obviously.

But he got these things. He had no interest in art. I mean, and this was, he always made a point of this. Right, apart from Maria Farmer's part. And he would ridicule his friends who did have an interest in art. Like Leon Black, who has one of the screams, which I think paid a hundred twenty million. Leon has one of the great contemporary art collections. Right. It marks the scream.

There was a moment in which he passed some kids' exhibition on the street, kids' art. Right. And he stopped. I don't know what caught his eye, but something caught his eye. He stopped, saw something, some kid, 10-year-old, 11-year-old, and he bought it, $25 or whatever, you know. And then he had it really expensively framed. So, in fact, the effect was like, oh, my God, this is an important piece of art. Right.

which I've always had a theory that it's all in the frame. And then he proudly displayed this and then would point it out to people, you like this, $25 it costs me an 11-year-old or whatever. And then I probably people wouldn't know if he was kidding or not. Exactly. And also the significance of that story becomes different when you think of it being an 11-year-old too, in the same way that the noose around the neck of the girl.

hanging takes on a different tree. Actually, the first time I went to his house and I was invited over, it was, I had met him at a TED conference. Ted is a yearly conference of technology people. And then afterwards, he's, he, he, somebody from his office called and said, you know, would you like, Jeffrey Epstein would like to. like to meet with you would um would you be available to come for tea on some afternoon and i was like oh okay i mean um this seems mysterious um so so i went and i went to this house which i had never been to before and um and you arrive at this at this house and it's it's it's hard to describe the effect that it has on you because it's on uh the house is on

on 71st Street between Fifth Avenue and Madison Avenue, one of the premium blocks in Manhattan. And it's a how, it's a street lined with these classic New York mansions, mansions out of reach of anything, of any life you can imagine for yourself. Except his house is not one of those. His house is five, six, seven, eight times, even larger than these incredibly large houses. Well, it looks a bit like I've only walked past it out of curiosity, and it looks like it could be a private museum. Yes, exactly.

I mean, it's, I mean, in the years since that I take people and walk people by, everyone's first response is a guffaw. But anyway, so I went. Went to this house to see to see Epstein for the first time. And these are these massive doors in which they're the houseman, Jojo, has to open. And you feel sorry for him every time because it's these are. The workout. These are big doors. And so I come into this house and you're, you're kind of, there's just too many things coming at you at once.

And on some level, it reminds you of the kind of baronial rich man's house that you might see in a movie about a rich man in New York. And I said something, I mean, you have to say something. I said, you know, wow, this is this is an incredible place. At which point, he took his knuckle, he wrapped on the wall. And he said, fake. It's all fake. It's all fake. So, you know.

Again, through the eyes, through hindsight, what a prophetic comment. Yeah, no. And it's all that kind of thing of him constantly acknowledging this meta level of his own existence, of a kind of irony, of a kind of everything makes fun of something else. Well, and again, as you've said before, on this. podcast, it's an extraordinary journey from where he grew up in Brooklyn, from very modest beginnings to an enormous house, frequently cited as the largest private house in Manhattan, whether or not it is, I'm not sure anybody actually knows. And then a tape. And but just, just to be sure, that citation comes from him. Of course, of course it comes from him. But, and then a

table around which sit all these people. As a matter of fact, let me interrupt another thing that he always build this house as 55,000 square feet. He tells you that when you go in. Yeah. Well, yeah, in a discussion of this, it's 55,000 square feet. And, I mean, remember, because I was, you know, discussing writing about this at some point. So it was like how big is this 55,000 square feet?

then when it was sold after he died somehow it was reduced in some lingo to like 25,000 square feet. And I don't know what. I mean, it certainly doesn't, I mean, I've looked at townhouses before that are 25,000 square feet. This seems much bigger than that. I don't know. Right. Well, a bit like Donald Trump, who started his apartments on level 13 so that it was always the tallest building. And actually I remember going to Steve Schwartzman, the co-founder of Blackstone's apartment and Park Avenue.

And as you walked into it was a party. And as you walked into the drawing room, there was a man standing at the door who was sort of semi-butler, semi-staff member saying, this is the largest private drawing room in New York City. And I immediately thought, I'm sure I've been in a larger one. And actually it didn't seem that big. So again, it's the need to tell you something which isn't particularly relevant to anybody but themselves. Yeah, no. I mean, it was very meaningful for Epstein that this idea of the largest private residence, as though, yes, the boy from this lower middle class Brooklyn life had this is what he had achieved.

achieved. And very much in the Gatsby mode. Right. So you knock on the wall, it's fake, and that sense of he didn't have a college degree, he'd hustled his way through Wall Street, and there was an incredible opacity, as we know, about how he made his money. And then there was this kind of, as you said, the devil's lair, this whole network of prostitutes underpinning his social law. So there was something hugely suspicious about Epstein, about every aspect of his life. And I've lived in New York for a long time. There are many people who are suspicious in New York. The difference with Epstein is that he was a show-off about this.

So, I mean, he did exactly the kinds of things that were going to call attention to issues, which ultimately, in effect, brought him down. So was this a self-destructive impulse, look at me, look at me, and if you look at me, and if you look at me, you're going to see. You're going to see me? Yes. Right. Or again, was this some kind of making fun of something?

You know, making fun of people's expectations, making fun of what's. the what the establishment expected or this kind of insult to the establishment. Well, a not a dissimilar and not a dissimilar characteristic from his great friend Donald Trump. Same instincts. Look at me, look at me in all of it. Yes. But I actually had the feelings at times that he was, in fact, one of the things that he was making fun of is someone like and quite particularly Donald Trump. Okay, so he's doing it with a sense of irony. Donald Trump is just desperate for attention. Yes. All right. So you say he's been, he was one of the most suspicious characters in New York.

Yet he went under the radar, especially by the mainstream media for so long. Well, there were several. I mean, I mean, the, you know, if you, if you track this, he first comes. comes to the media attention in 2000, 2001-ish, because of his relationship with Bill Clinton, because he's ferrying Bill Clinton around every which way on his airplane. Because he's going to play. On his airplane. So that's when he starts showing up on page six. That's when this starts to get to get, this starts to roll.

for him. And in 2002, maybe, he's the subject of a vanity fair profile and a New York Magazine profile. Now, that's interesting because when I met him, which is in about 2000 at this TED conference, and he invites me over for T, and I was then the media columnist at New York Magazine. I remember. That's when we first met. Indeed. But so he has me over there and one of the things that he wants to talk about is media. And I can't quite figure out what he wants from me. Does this involve how to get media or how to stay out of the media?

I mean, in those, those might be two sides of a coin of a billionaire or would-be billionaire in New York. And I felt that it was the latter. I want to stay out of the media. So what do I do? And I gave him, I gave him the advice I give everybody. Just don't talk to anybody. I mean, it's a simple advice. Everybody can have it.

you don't want to be in the media. When the media calls you up, don't take the call. Right. Okay, that's good advice. Except that he clearly didn't do that. He clearly took the call and he clearly cultivated this. He wanted that recognition at the same time saying he didn't want it. Which a lot of people do.

A lot of people do. And they're feeding stories about themselves under the radar, as it were. And also it's very intoxicating. I think, for people media coverage until it becomes too much. And then you can't put, to mix metaphors, the genie back in the bottom. And then in the case of Epstein, so what happens during this period is that he becomes identified, very closely identified, with Bill Clinton, which means that he becomes a political lightning rod or a political, a political pawn. you could get to Bill Clinton suddenly through this guy who was clearly mysterious and clearly dubious in so many ways.

And that would probably then ties into what next happened, which this attention from the Palm Beach police, and that then became attention from the federal government. So this is shooting forward to 2007, 2008. Right, right. Yeah, beginning in 2004 and then his legal travails began in 2004 and then he goes to jail in 2007 or takes the plea in 2007 and goes to jail shortly thereafter. Michael, hold on one second. We're just going to take an outbreak. And we're back with Michael Wolfe. And do you think the media missed the story? about Jeffrey Epstein. Okay, well, as I say, in this, they get this, you know,

the media attends to this story in before his legal troubles begin. They write about this story. They don't know anything about the girls yet. He's just a mysterious billionaire. And then obviously the troubles happen. And this is not really covered all that much at this point in time. You know, some, some stories. And remember, his plea in 2007 is to, you know, I can't.

It's like one count of soliciting prostitution, underage prostitution, right? Yeah. So it's one count of underage, it's one count of underage prostitution. Right. So it's not, you know, I mean, this is terrible, terrible things, but it's in the scheme of things, we've seen other rich men go down this route. What Epstein was doing was on such a grotesque and industrial scale that it, that it, that it, it amounted to something much different. But we don't know that then. All we know at that 2007 point. is, you know, is that the guy got in trouble, prostitution, not that uncommon. Right. And it doesn't get that much attention. And proceeds not to get that much attention

until, and he gets, he gets out of jail, essentially rehabilitates himself or begins to. As a publicist. Yes. And everybody's at his life returns. to what it was before. And uses Prince Andrew as sort of a human shield, almost, to burnish his reputation as a significant business. Or a kind of bait, you know, you can meet. Well, bait to come to dinner, but human shield in terms of, hey, I'm protected by my rich friends. Yeah, well, also just, I mean, his idea.

Yes, he built respectability around him. Right. Around him. Nothing like British royalty to give you a bit. bit of sheen. Exactly. I'm being ironic. No, no, but it's absolutely true.

And that, you know, I mean, this, because, you know, Prince Andrew goes back to, you know, the late 90s that, that relationship. And clearly, and Trump is involved with this, too, because both of these guys have an obsession with the royal family and see it and understand it as one of the great social climbing vectors. If you can get with the royal family, then you can meet anyone you want, which in turn opens up all kinds of finance avenues. So remember, it's social climbing, but what's the point of social climbing? Access to money to capital.

I mean, you can't, it reminds me of an Anthony Trollope novel or a Dickens novel. I find it, I am unable to read fiction at the moment. I simply can't pick up a modern novel and read because this stuff is so thick and rich. And there's always more to read or to listen to about it. And to your point about social climbing, the ascent that Epstein made was so high. I mean, you think of the people he had around his table. It wasn't just any college president. It was the former president of Harvard.

You think of the people who've been felled by their connections to him. Joey Ito, the head of the Media Lab at MIT. This isn't a college nobody's heard of. It's MIT. You think of Leon Black. You know, he's not just any old financier. He's the co-founder of Apollo, the biggest private equity company. These are luxury brand names.

The former Prime Minister of Israel. Right. This goes down. I mean, MBS, the guy who, you know. Right. I mean, it's a key guy. No, no, these, for a small boy from Brooklyn, the people he brought together around his table, it's an incredible list of luxury brand names.

Amazing. Donald Trump perhaps being the exception there. No, I mean, this is an extraordinary life. Which is all the more odd that he wasn't under more scrutiny from the mainstream media. I'm trying to think if that's true. There are a lot of people, a lot of rich people in New York who because they choose to avoid scrutiny. I mean, literally, if you just follow my recommendation, don't take the call. You're, you can probably to a, to a greater degree, protect yourself. And anyway, this goes on. This, this. This. This.

This literally goes on that nobody's interested in, nobody's interested in Jeffrey Epstein, this mysterious maybe billionaire. Even this mysterious maybe billionaire who has gone to jail, served prison time for, you know, I mean, I mean, I mean, pretty crummy stuff. Yeah. it doesn't really matter. It doesn't. And during this time, so, and this is after he gets out of prison, you know, really right up until, I mean, he's being pursued. I mean, the legal things, you know, he is, he is, there's a set of lawyers that have, that have taken up the case of these many, many. women who have, you know, alleged he has done, you know, all variety of...

These are the civil suits brought by the women that alleged that he was raping them or they were underage when he was involved. And they get very little attention. I mean, this is an enormously complicated case, which we should get into some time. Because, you know, along the way, one of the lawyers who's involved in this gets, invents a fraud. based on the Jeffrey Epstein case and goes around raising money in a kind of a producers-like scheme. You know, if you give me money, then you'll get a piece of whatever settlement. I mean, that guy goes to jail for 15 years. One of his lawyers goes to jail for 15. One of the lawyers suing him.

Oh, one of the lawyers suing him. Yes, one of the lawyers of the women making these allegations. So you get this, all of these complications. I mean, as a matter of fact, here's an indication of how complex this was that by the end, after there are all these emails, which the government has. But one of the problems in releasing these emails is that you have to go through them and sort out what's privileged, you know, if you're communicating with your, with your, with your lawyer. Yes. And Epstein had 75 lawyers.

So that's... Hasniz had 75 lawyers on the payroll. I would love to see his monthly lawyers. Oh, God. No, no. I mean, these cases, this legal effort against Jeffrey Epstein, even before he died and then the estate just moved to settle everything. But even before that, this is a hundred million dollars that was spent.

You know, I'm speaking to someone at some point said, you know, basically Jeffrey Epstein was supporting the South Florida bar. Right. Did he feel at that stage? So you got to know him again in sort of 2014 when he reached out to you to see if you would be interested in writing a book about him. Right. Did he think at that point that if he was dealing with all these civil lawsuits from the victims, did he feel that the world was closing in on him?

Did he feel the walls were closing in? No, no, he didn't feel that until later. I mean, this was all, I mean, I think his attitude was this was, you know, this is, these are legal problems. rich people have legal problems all of the time. I don't think even the richest of people have 75 lawyers to deal with this specific issue. No, no. And I remember one of these lawyers once said to me that part of his problem in this was that he hired so many lawyers and they all had different opinions and they were all fighting with each other.

Right. It's like having too many doctors weighing in because they all have their own point of view and they want to beat the other person. Exactly. Exactly. But at any rate, this, so this is the period. This is from, I mean, I kind of come in and begin talking to him in 2014. All of this is going on. And he's still not covered. This is still not a story. Right. You know, many people are going to Epstein's house. It's life goes on as usual. He's just another, you know, I mean, let's remember. Manhattan is full. the upper east side full of dubious figures. So that doesn't necessarily, I mean, in hindsight, we say, well, that's why not? And that's an extraordinary story. And it is an extraordinary story. But it sort of goes over everyone's under the radar, over the radar, whatever. And it doesn't really come back into enormous prominence.

until 2018 when the Miami Herald. And Julie K. Brown. Yes. And now that is, and that story comes about because these lawyers have been pursuing this and pursuing this and pursuing this. And these lawyers who begin are kind of ambulance chasers, but then bigger lawyers, one of the biggest lawyers in the country. David Boyes gets involved with this. And David Boyce is trying to wash his own reputation because he's been involved with the Weinstein case, but on the wrong side of the Weinstein case, i.e. on Harvey's side.

Right, right. She tells the story from the side of the, of the women who, and the many, many women, many who have, you know, who have these terrible stories to tell about Jeffrey Epstein. And that suddenly breaks open again. And there is, again, an enormous amount of attention that comes. And then at that point, he begins to feel things tightening around him. Does he have a go? Although in his own, that, I, you know, perpetually ironic way.

At one point, his, one of his lawyers says in describing this, that this is, Jeffrey, this is bad. This is heart attack bad. And then Epstein says, but how bad is it really? We're going to take a quick break for these messages. And we're back with Michael Wolfe. It slightly reminds me of the story of Jimmy Saville, the BBC presenter in the UK, who upon his death it became clear that he'd molested, abused, raped, over a thousand children. And it was very clear that he was throwing out grappling hooks for reporters, investigators, had they chosen to hold on to them to bring them into actually what. was his story. And he would say when people said to him, why aren't you married? He would go,

oh, I like the ladies too much. I like the little girls too much or whatever. I mean, he would literally say to people in interviews these things. And people would kind of look aghast, but nobody followed up. And then the one or two times they did, the stuff never got on out. Well, well, is that idea of things hiding in plain sight? I mean, Donald Trump is, I mean, there are similar things. I mean, if you traced what Donald Trump, has said over the years, not to mention his close relationship with Epstein. It's like, what? Well, and I've often wondered if Jeffrey Epstein called you in to write about him,

because at some point he might know that you might be the person that would actually uncover what was really going on, and there was a part of him that wanted people to know, or there was part of him, maybe a tiny 0.001% of conscience that wanted this all to stop. Well, I don't know. My impression was, I mean, first thing, I never saw anything. I never saw anything besides very influential and powerful men, the occasional woman, come to his house for these discussions which involved, which never involved.

You said there were various women around, but none of them were underage. They all looked like that sort of early. Well, there were those women, there were a set of women always around his house, and they were assistants. I mean, I always thought they were functioning like, like, um. You mean like young, I'm going to help you out, young women assistants. They're dressed in black. They're very pretty. They're like fashion assistants.

Well, I find them more as, think of them as the girls, gallery girls. Right. Okay. the girls in New York galleries who are always dressed in black who look very pretty and who are there to sort of assist and get you a catalog. Yes, exactly. Okay. And that's what the, so you didn't pay very much attention to them, but they were room decorations. But the psychology of someone who knows he's running a network of frequently underage prostitutes inviting someone in to come and write about their life.

Well, that's this is what I went. My impression, and I think this was the impression of most of those people who came to Jeffrey Epstein's house, was that he had gone to, he had done what he had done, he had gone to prison, and he certainly wasn't doing that anymore because who would be so foolish as to do that. And there was no indication that he was, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that life felt like, um, one that he was chastened. He had, what he'd learned his life, and he wasn't going to do it again. Right. I mean, I'm just looking at the, at the discrepancies and on how this story unfolds and over what period of time. And you're talking a long period of time. But then I think it's, it's, it's even, you know, we get to the point. to the media point where we begin, you know, they cover this when he goes to, when, after the Miami Herald and then the re-arrest and then the death. What we don't see after that is any media interest in, in who this person was, how this extraordinary story, this of this person who comes from nowhere, makes this, this enormous amount of money attracts the great and good and the high and mighty around his

table. And most of these people, to the extent that they will talk and most don't talk, but nevertheless basically are saying, you know, this was a completely compelling person. They went around his table. They went there. And, you know, there was obviously this, part of the conspiracy that there was a black male ring and operation and they went for the girls. That's not true. I mean, I have been there enough times to have to have seen very clearly people were there because they wanted to be there because they, this was, this was a, the kind of table that people like this, dream about. You're there with other people of...

Right. So part of the point of moving to you that you're going to find stimulating company, you're going to sit around the table with quasi world leaders, or at least leaders in their profession and learn things. Myth of that, which doesn't happen, but in fact happened here. The incredible interest online post-2019 when Jeffrey Epstein died and the conspiracy around his death, which was at odds with how it was covered by the legacy media, And all the other things that it's throwing up this story, not least his relationship with Donald Trump and why the White House is having such a difficult time tamping this story down. Great. Let's do it.

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