The Daily Beast Podcast - Inside the Ivanka-Melania War

Episode Date: December 18, 2020

They’re the two most important women in Donald Trump’s life. And they absolutely loathe one another.  Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, the former Melania Trump confidant and author of Melania and Me: The Rise and Fall of My Friendship with the First Lady, spills the tea on the latest episode of The New Abnormal, starting with the very first days of the administration.   “Melania didn't come to D.C. that week, but Ivanka stayed and Donald stayed there. And all of a sudden, that's the weekend, Donald signs the immigration, what was it called? The ban. Yes. Ivanka shows ‘Finding Dory.’ Now, if you couldn't be more tone-deaf. Children were being separated from their parents. And here you're screening a film where again, this trout fish is being separated from its mother.”  “Is that because Ivanka is dumb or is that because Ivanka is evil?” Molly Jong-Fast asks. “Listen, I say it as it is. I think it's a mixture. I really do. I think that Ivanka is Donald in a suit, right? All of the Trumps are taught to be Trumps. They don't show emotion. A Trump is a Trump because they are authentically and unapologetically skin deep, and also self-serving. And their attitudes and disrespect for each other is again, you have to get any inside to see it,” Wolkoff answers. And Wolkoff does indeed go inside, accusing Ivanka of purposefully boxing Melania out at every turn.  “So [Ivanka] impinged on Melania's duties while overstepping her rank and boundaries. And I mean that, in a sense like she poached individuals that we were for the East Wing, that we were vetting to have—Kayleigh McEnany, Mercedes Schlapp. I mean, these were people Melania was looking to bring in. We called [Ivanka] the serial poacher. It was deceptive. But you don't go and hire people that the First Lady's looking to bring in,” Wolkoff adds. “The princess wanted to render Melania irrelevant. And you know, Melania refers to them as ‘snakes,’ Jared and Ivanka, and they'll do anything to get what they want. And they do.” Maybe none of this would’ve been that big of a deal—if Ivanka had been the mastermind she played on TV. But, uh, she wasn’t. "What was particularly galling, not only to us, but also to Melania, was that Ivanka and Jared were no more qualified to be engaged in any governing of the country than she was. Not that any of us that had never held those positions,” Wolkoff continues. “So to hear Ivanka put her name in the same sentence, as working with [former White House Chief of Staff] General [John] Kelly, it's like, 'Oh my God, how could you even?' Who would do that? Who would just be so disrespectful to say something like that? And think I she genuinely thinks it and believes it." This is part one of a two-part talk with Wolkoff. Part two airs next week—and includes previously-unheard tapes of Wolkoff and Melania. Want more? Become a Beast Inside member to enjoy a limited-run series of bonus interviews from The New Abnormal. Guests include Cory Booker, Jim Acosta, and more. Head to newabnormal.thedailybeast.com to join now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi folks, it's Rick Wilson, and welcome to The Daily Beast's The New Abnormal. Hi, I'm Molly Jongfast, a left-wing pundit and editor-at-large at the Daily Beast. I'm also an editor at The Daily Beast, a former Republican political strategist, best-selling author, and full-time troublemaker. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, business, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. I'll try to keep Rick to the minimum number of F-bombs and try to keep our... kids, pets, and other wildlife sounds from invading our respective bunkers. Rick Wilson, are you in Gitmo? Sadly, for the enemies of my work to preserve democracy and freedom, I am not in fact,

in Gitmo. That was just a conference room. Sorry for any confusion. The exultant right-wingers in the Trump world who believed there was some possibility that I was either in a police station or Gitmo. They are universally mistaken. It feels like something that someone at Gitmo would sign. I'm just saying.

I will say to this. My liberties, if I am in Gitmo, are boundless and delightful, and therefore I am not going to particularly worry about speculation as to my location in a certain American black sight. So besides you not being in Gitmo, this week, there's been fuckery. You know, all weeks these days contain fuckery. and this week has had a high fuckery quotient. We've certainly seen, I think, a degree of fuckery on all fronts, fake dramas, real dramas, and the dying gasp of the animal as its twitches have slowly led to the inevitable end by the electoral college's hand.

A lot of Republicans feel very sensitive, and they feel that even though the Electoral College voted and Joe Biden is now the winner of the electoral college, somehow they feel that this is very hard for Trump and also that they can fight this on January 6th. There's also a great worry amongst them that at some point, someone who works for Joe Biden once called them fuckers. Yes.

And their delicate, delicate snowflake feels have been so hard. and they're so shocked and appalled, and they're weeping quietly into their wifu pillows, and they're begging mommy to bring chicken tindies because those people in the Biden administration are so mean to them, and they just don't say nice things. Very, very, very sensitive, these Republicans. As I tweeted this morning,

I don't want to hear a goddamn word from any of these people who alighted over and ignored and normalized, and explained away what I refer to as the open sewer of Trump's mouth for the last five years. I don't want to hear a fucking word, not from any of them about this. Not a goddamn thing that people are tough on them. You know, suck it up, Buttercup. You bought the ticket. You take the ride.

Toughen up, Snowflake, cuck. Right, now we're just not going to say abusive stuff to Republicans. I mean, as much fun as that is, we should target it. No, I still am. Okay, I'm just checking. Ron Johnson is taking this particularly hard. Rojo. Rojo has a lot of trouble with reality to start with.

He is a guy who combines a sort of mendacity and stupidity and evil all into one delicious Wisconsin-flavored package. Sort of like rotten cheese. I would just like to say that his state went blue. It did go blue. And Republican judges in his state have said several times, regarding the assertions of Rojo and Donald Trump and their various allies, minions, sycophants, bootleckers, and taint snifers, that their assertions are absurd, as they, of course, are evidently by anyone who has even the slightest grasp on reality would understand. But, you know, look,

it's a fascinating moment here. There are still going to be dead enders. And the Uday and Kusei types are going to hold out until the very last, because all of them with future ambitions, recognizes we've talked about earlier that, you know, 25, 35, 40% of the Republican Party is going to be under the spell of Donald Trump. And they're going to all buy themselves a primary if they say anything in opposition to the president's ludicrous assertions about this election. But either way, I mean, Rojo is up in two years in his newly blue state. So if Democrats could find someone halfway reasonable to run against him, I mean, like in, North Carolina, don't find someone who's having an affair. Maybe.

Maybe. Maybe. You know, that was a state we never went and did any work in this year. Right. And not because we knew Cal Cunningham had a secret, but because everyone else was pouring. I mean, there must have been like $200 million spent in that state. We were just like, well, we're not going to make a difference there. And the polling was good.

But the polling was solid. But here's the thing. If you're the Democrats in North Carolina, or a variety of other states that are not, shall we say Massachusetts, if you're the Democrats in North Carolina, a really, really strong encouragement I would push forward to you is, please don't pick the most woke person you can find. Now, Calcunningham was not the most woke person, but he was a flawed candidate. So you want to pick the best possible candidate, and that involves making sure that they're checked out and squared away, and making sure that they are electable on a statewide basis in a red or purple

or reddish state. And that they're local. If you look at one of the great things about Reverend Warnock, he is local, even though Madison Crawfish doesn't think so because he's black and Madison Crawfish is a huge racist. But, you know, Reverend Warnock is of Georgia. He is most certainly of Georgia. And, you know, isn't it interesting how many of these Republicans have tried to foxify their image, by jumping into the Georgia race, Dan Crenshaw and his knockoff Mission Impossible ad. Right. The most gerrymander district ever, Dan Crenshaw. Right. Rand Paul, can you explain to me what the hell? He's like the Devin Nunes of the Senate.

Rand Paul is the heir. Right, of Rue. That's right. And Rand Paul is the heir to the Ron Paul fortunes. Pretty sure it's Rue. But I'll let you slide on this one. Okay. He is a guy who keeps the family tradition alive of being the most dickish contrary and he can be. And he is recognized that to keep that email list bumping and jumping that they've been running for 25 years now and generating a gigantic amount of income, they need to keep feeding the crazy machine.

And the crazy machine wants crazy. So he's giving them all the crazy he can. I mean, it's kind of amazing. It really is kind of astounding how much, how far he's willing to go over the cliff, especially in things where he knows, you know, look, he's not a stupid man. Wow. No, he's not a stupid man. I know the guy, he's not a stupid man. He's mendacious.

He's, you know, he's a guy who's got an eye for the main chance politically. And so, you know, look, he played the role of the Tea Party Patriot Constitutionalist. And now he's playing the role of the nationalist. conspiracist. And it happens. You know, it happens with these guys. And you can't get away from it in this, in this, in the era of Trump that he brings out the worst, darkest nightmare characters from everybody's, everybody's, you know, shame closet. And Rand Paul is playing it out.

Right. It seems as much. And it's kind of amazing. The Rand Paul stuff is amazing. And then we had Maria Bartaroma, the Money Honey, saying that she had Intel. The Money Honey's Intel source. His name is Donald Trump And he's a very highly placed Intel source In the White House And he's going to tell her

Tell her these top secret classified things About the election being stolen Yeah That was amazing It's like the Canadian girlfriend of journalism sources I actually watched Lou Dobbs last night Which was like I am so sorry for you

I had anxiety dreams all night But people do advertise on Lou Dobbs, which is sort of shocking. What kind of things are advertised on Lou Dobbs? Like, you know, different financial traders. Stuff you think, like, if you found these people and if you sort of called these people out, I mean, you see that what Sleeping Giants does really works. Like, if you called these people out, they would end up be having to go out. Running to the hills, right.

Yeah, because the stuff they're supporting is indefensible. Of course. Of course. I mean, and Grandpa Lou has gone like full bore cuckoo pants and conspiracist and racist and the whole package. It's a delicious slurry of Trumpist perfection. Exactly. Did I see an ad on there for a racist? How do you eat all? Oh, wait, that was just Lou.

Mike Pence. Yes. You know him well. I don't know him that well, thank God. But I know him. I'm a big, you know, since he's fleeing. country right before the inauguration. Right right after the electoral college count.

Yeah, well, you know why, because he has to, he has to preside over the Senate for the count in the Senate, okay? Oh. And he is the presiding officer, and if he doesn't show up, there's a novel legal theory, which of course, you know, I'm not surprised by novel legal theories American Trump world these days since most of their attorneys seem to have graduated from the Joe Bob's school. Joe Bob's School of Law and Dairy Sciences at a crap fuck university. The idea of, oh, well, if Pence doesn't show up, the Senate can't preside over and get the

fuck out of here. Come on, people. It's going to happen. Is Trump, is he just not going to show up? Like, what's the game here? I still operate under the theory that Donald Trump will do his alternative inaugural rally so that he can ravage one last little ego chub before he, um, before he is forced out of the office.

And it'll be, it'll be a way from to try to crap on the Biden's inauguration and a way for him to try to, you know, cause trouble. But, you know, it won't, it won't materially affect the fact that as my friend Reid Galen says, on January 20th, Donald Trump doesn't lead the presidency. The presidency leaves him. And then it's done. And it's over. But Mike Pence going away is so that Mike Pence doesn't get harassed by a repuls. Republicans or Democrats? Republicans.

Explain. He doesn't want Donald Trump's anger and fury and rage and pissiness and all those things to rein down on him as the final thing that people in the Trump Republican Party remember about him. And it's going to be a very difficult escape for Trump or for Pence if Trump is screaming bloody murder about how much he's angry for Mike Pence betraying him in the end. And I'm so here for it. Just like, fast forward from it, what do you think happens with Mike Pence when this is over? I'm Mike Pence, and many of you have considered a reverse mortgage before.

But you wonder, is it a way for the bank to steal my house? No, it's a way for Donald Trump to steal your house. So he's going to get Tom Selle's job? That's really. Poor Tom Sont, they already made the DVDs with his face on it. Yeah, baby. I think the craziest theory is Mike is running because he knows that the other type of rats, which is people ratting out this administration, are coming because we now see, we want them all infected,

which we'll be talking about later with Dan Diamond, that the COVID infections was a strategy, not a bug, and Kellyanne was editing CDC documents. Yeah, that's amazing. Yep. Nothing surprises me about the degree to which the Trump administration was possessed of a malicious intent about how COVID would be handled. And that malicious intent manifests itself most clearly, in my view, in terms of the super spreader aspects of Trump's campaign. And with the idea that Dr. X-ray Atlas promoted, of straight up going in for, herd immunity. And neither of those two aspects, in my view, of this nine months of hell they put

us through, has been, in my view, anything other than malicious and criminal. These people understood what they were doing. They understood they were going to kill many, many, many Americans by not promoting social distancing and not promoting handwashing and not promoting. Let's remember, guys, For four months, they pretended that this wasn't happening. And then for four months after that, we had wildly varying mixed messages every day. I'm not going to wear a mask. Don't wear a mask. I don't wear a mask.

I don't wear a mask. Oh, well, wear a mask if you have to, but, you know, I'm not going to wear a mask. You know, the whole thing is just absurd. Is there legal recourse for any of this, though? I doubt it. The idea of being able to hold these people legally accountable among, by the way, an awful a lot of Democratic leadership types is basically zero. There are a lot of Democratic leadership types who do not want to hold people accountable. They want to try to put this in the past and go

in the rearview mirror and oh, we're going to pass the Green New Deal and, you know, just punishing them doesn't do anything. Well, except, of course, punishing them would punish them. It would possibly prevent them from doing it next time. And maybe, possibly, you know, as an example to others, you know, prevent this. kind of shit in the future, or at least make people think twice about it. But what do I now? But there's no recourse. Not really. Not meaningfully. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's sort of shocking. I think Trump, like, I'm not so worried about Trump because I think Trump is like O.J. Simpson. They won't get him for the murder, but they'll get him for something, you know?

I personally think that the thing that gets Donald Trump is tax fraud in New York and bank fraud in New York, as I've written about, to the great distress of many, many of the very tough Republican Super Warrior, proud boy types. They're very, very distressed that I said, we need to hold these people accountable. You go after them, and we need to wreck their shit for wrecking our shit. And by our shit, I mean, America. Their sensitivity and their hurt feelings and their worries that anyone would say that they need to be held accountable for their actions, that's just so mean. It really is kind of amazing. They're so positive. But as I've said, the people that are losing their shit over maybe one of Biden's appointees called them fuckers at some point.

You know, that whole series of tweets from micro-rubio saying, Micro-Rubio, in case anyone missed that. Saying that, oh, you know, it's outrageous that, you know, quoting elliptical Bible verses while Donald Trump shits on veterans, quoting elliptical Bible verses while Donald Trump encourages the proud boys, I'm doing all these things, you know, and then trying to run. for the tall grass and say, civility, come back. Oh, we need civility in this.

You know what? No, no. No one gets a free pass on this shit. If you've been one of Trump's an eight worse. Sorry, guys. But I have to say, I think that Marco Rubio and Ivanka to the death is going to be he'll get his. It's amazing to me that Marco's people still don't understand that if she gets in that race, nothing.

Today he was saying, well, my work on the paycheck. Protection Act. And my strong stands on Cuba and China. One tweet from Donald Trump, okay, that says, my daughter Ivanka, who is very, very sexy. And I find strangely compelling, I said more on China than Marco Rubio ever has. And then every Trump voter, which is all the Trump voters, which is all the Republican voters in Florida, will say, oh, yeah, well, Ivanka was the only in the fight on Patriot Projection. Wasn't Marco. And I'm just, I'm picking on Marco here, because, A, I can, and B. And because why not? other Republican in this country will still be under the shadow of Trump forever. They will still be under his thumb.

They will still have to wake up in the morning and think, oh, God, as he tweeted, oh, God, as he tweeted, did he tweet about me? Oh, God. Because they've sold themselves to the terrorists. No, exactly. Stephanie Woodston Walcop is both an event planner and the author of Melania and me. Today we have an exclusive interview with her on her time spent entangled with the Trump family. So you and I have known each other for a long time, though not super well.

And I know you started your career, or at least you started, when I knew you, you worked at Vogue. And then you went to do the fashion shows. But can you tell me a little bit about how you met Melania 2003, right? Yeah, I was working at Vogue, like you said. And I happened to have a really great front routine to the rollout. of the making of Melania Trump. I wasn't, you know, I can't say I was, didn't have my hands involved in it. But I watched as Vogue, unbeknownst to Anna and Andre, Leon Talley.

Really, I think Donald, you know, used Anna as his ace in the hole to turn Melania into, you know, this uncut gem into this diamond. And he used the red carpet of Fifth Avenue for the Met Gala, which I produced for over a decade. Right. And there he was. So I think it was really just for Melania's coming out that year leading up to her wedding in order to give her presence in New York to give her stability within society. So people would recognize her, put her in some of the front rows of fashion week and fashion shows. But it really wasn't Anna holding her hand or being clothed Donald. It was just, I think, Vogue, as you know, it's your world too.

when you're about to legitimize yourself like Donald needed to to also legitimize Melania as he calls her his supermodel. I mean, he needed the vote cover.

You became friends with her and then she went to the White House. You know, the first time I met her, I was at Vogue and I just saw this pretty girl at the office. And Andre and I sat across from each other

and he told me that's Melania Trump and I didn't, again, I knew Donald's name, I knew the brand, but I wasn't friendly with them. And so when she and I met, there was a click. There was an instant connection. And she's always had this confidence. And it's magnetic, actually.

And her smile is contagious. And like, And I remember, like I was reading some emails from Andre and I, and we were talking about it. It's like, we like her. You know, that's how we felt. We like her. She was polite and she played the part. So when Trump won, did you know you were going?

going to play a part in her? Well, I didn't know exactly what I was going to do. I did know that on the, it was in 2015. When the request was starting to come in for Melania, when he was running, she had reached out to me a lot more

to begin speaking to reporters on the record for her. Right. And so after that, you know, we did get, we started getting much closer. And when he won, I was at her apartment two days later, you know, jumping up and down. and extremely except for her.

And I thought I was really going to primarily help her with fashion. But then I learned that the family had gotten together and they really wanted my expertise and experience to help produce the presidential inauguration. A lot of people say that when Melania found her Trump was going to win, she cried. Not at all. Okay.

Here's the thing. So, you know, when Granted by the Pussy tape happened, right? So all of a sudden, I get a text from Melania, and she's like, you want to have lunch? And I'm like, wait, didn't this just happen? So I did like a double take. She texted me, you know, I canceled my Anderson Cooper interview. Do I have lunch at the mark? No problem, of course. I myself had not heard the tape from myself yet. My kids had told me about it. And so I walked into the mark. She was already there.

I was running late. And I had to tell I walked in and I myself would have been in a corner. You know, I mean, everyone was, it was from page of news that day. I walked in. She was radiant. She was sitting there at the table. She was excited. She was happy. She was glowing. and our conversation went in different directions. We talked about many different things, but at the end of it, I did say to her. Well, I asked her two things. The tape itself was the first time that there was any hesitation

that she felt that perhaps this was the only thing that would ever get in the way of his winning. And the second thing was that as we were leaving, she said to me, our lives are going to be wide open. And I said to her, are you worried about that? She goes, no, I told Donald, if he does this, he has to be ready for everything to be exposed. And I did think to myself, and you're, and you too, you know, like, but I didn't say it,

but I sort of said it. Do you know what I mean? It was like, I looked at her and she was like, look, she, but that night, she was happy. I mean, she was, would I say that she was something that, it was something that she had planned or something she had wished for her. No. Melania loved being in Trump Tower in her bathroom with her pink dumbbells. Like, she was happy.

being Mrs. Trump. So you think she was happy that would the Access Hollywood because she was hoping it would derail the presidency? Well, I don't think she was happy with Access Hollywood.

I mean, I know she was not happy with the tape itself. But I think, did she say that, no, no, she didn't say that she was happy because it was the one thing that could, you know,

have him lose. That was the only thing that ever gave them any imbalance, you know, any insecurity of his losing. But I think that, no, once he was running,

They don't like to lose, right? So they will show that's not happening. Okay, so let's talk about so the audience understands you then began to work on the inauguration and things went a little stuff. When I was visiting with Melania, she told me, you know, that there was a family meeting and they wanted me to come on board and help produce the inauguration. But the official asked would have to come from Ivanka. Wait, it would have to come from Ivanka? Yeah. It was not coming from Melania.

Malanya was telling me on the side. And that was our meeting in the afternoon and we were our get together as friends. Family meetings are run by Ivanka? You know, I don't know who ran the meeting, but I do know that it was Ivanka, her brothers, Donald Melania, for Jared, I'm not sure who else was there,

but coming out of it was that Ivanka was going to be the point person for planning the inauguration and introducing me to the chairman of the inaugural, which is Tom Barrack. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I played it up. I did. I play, you know, again, I wanted to, people didn't realize the relationship that Melania and I had, which was actually a good thing at first, because it enabled me to, I guess, do things that would make sure that she was, I mean, how do I put it nicely? Ivanka wanted to usurp everything that Melania should have had and should have been entitled to as, and respected of as the first lady.

Every event was first thought of for Ivanka. She was the number one priority. And I came to realize that. So in the beginning, when she called me and she introduced me the chairman, I later went and met with the chairman and also met with the deputy chairman, Rick Gates. We all had lunch together. And, you know, they said to me, look, no one expected the boss. They called him the boss.

No one expected the boss to win. We didn't know, you know, we're not prepared to plan an inauguration. it's seven weeks out. And again, I thought an inauguration was just, you know, you put your hand on the Bible, you swear in, you become the President of United States. Like, I realized there were however many events there were. So they asked me to do two balls and a dinner in honor of, called the candlelight dinner, and honor Monion and Donald.

So I'm thinking, okay, three events turned into 18. But anyway, I was asked if I would, you know, help with the creative planning and design for the overall inauguration. And as a producer, I got involved in the, the event development and the activation and the general oversight and planning, but in coordination with something called the pick. Now, I didn't know what the pick was, but I was told the pick was going to be executing these things. That's the presidential inauguration committee.

And I do think it's important for listeners to know, Molly, and I mean, you want to explain it? Because not knowing that this happens every four years and that this group of people that don't have the experience in each of these different administrative positions to roll out, an inaugural and produce them efficiently, properly, or at least not this one. Maybe others do, but, you know, the people running this one, unfortunately, I had a sneak peek into what the next four years was going to be like. Disaster. A disaster. It was chaos. It was unorganized. It was just, it was a mess. And that took a toll on, I know me and many other people, but, you know, again, that left many, many to question what was actually going on. Did you get the sense that these people were up to

no good. Well, I can tell you that I ran over to Trump Tower, Melania and Donald were there, and I started crying, and I told him that I was going to probably end up on the bottom of the Potomac River. Probably not a great sign. And I am not joking, like, at all. Like, I, like, I am not joking. I even got home that night, and I called Melania crying still, and she got Donald on the phone that night. And, you know, for them, so many things had happened that I, again, called out, and I called it to their attention. I always brought things up to Melania's attention. There were a few times when Donald was in the, you know, he'd come home and I'd be sitting there with Malia in the dining room and reviewing whatever, invitations and, and, you know,

different types of things that we were planning for her dinner. And Donald would come in, and the first time he came in, you know, he immediately started talking about Time magazine. He was on the cover again. This whole thing about Time Magazine and I literally... He's like obsessed with Time Magazine.

Oh my God. I literally looked at and I was like, do you realize that you're the president of the United States of America? And he's like,

yeah, yeah, is that great? And he went back to the Time magazine. And it was like, oh my God. Like this is true. Like this happens.

But I have to say in that instance, in that moment, in that time when I was with Melania and Donald, that evening, I had some really bad feelings. and I expressed them to the line.

And she said, when Donald gets home, tell him. So when he did get home that night, he and I were sitting around the dining room table. And he came in and he's like, hey, baby. And she's like, oh, I'm so busy. And she was. I mean, she was busy with invitations and color, you know, pantone colors and planning.

And again, it was an enormous amount of work, but then, you know, brand guidelines and things. But Donald's like, you know, I don't want to interrupt baby. And she's like, no, no, no. And then she looked at me and she gave me this look. And she was like, tell him. And there was no way out. So I brought up Rick Gates to her earlier.

Because I really didn't understand the people. I hadn't really met Sarah Armstrong, who's the CEO. And I just didn't know the players at all. When Donald came in, I was like, you know, it was in that moment when I brought Rick Gates up to Donald. And he so, I would have sold both my arms in belief that he had no idea who Rick Gates was either. Really? Oh my God. Like I was like,

he's like, Rick, Rick Gates? Who's Rick Gates? And I'm like, oh my God. And now, again, I don't know politics. I didn't know he was his campaign manager. So I, when I got home, I actually Googled it. And I found this picture of them standing like two inches apart from one another on stage and the red ties. And I cut it out and I posted it's actually still in my kitchen to remind myself how naive and stupid I was to not realize that that, that, that,

how close they were. So was he playing you or was, is he just like out of it? No, no, no, no, no. There's no way this conversation went on for a while. There's no way he's out of it. And, you know, because I believed him. And I can see how people that don't know any differently, that don't know any better, would actually believe what he's saying because he believes what he's saying. What he's saying? And it's scary. It's frightening because you, I wouldn't, I didn't question it at all. But things go south. And you and more, Ania eventually have a falling out. There's 69 days that I have to get through.

And it ends up like I call it. Sounds like a bad song. I know. And by the way, it is the worst song you could ever imagine. And 69 to begin with, you know, you want to think of it as a really good number. It's a number that I never, ever want to say again in my life. The president of the inauguration is the 69 day. Right.

And there's a countdown. And so every day, something new and something. different happens. Now, the presidential inauguration committees in place. When I went to D.C., I had met the different vendors. I had met vendors that have been producing the inauguration since the Truman era. I assumed that

the individuals involved were going to be experienced, thoughtful in their considerations as far as budgets were concerned. We're working with a nonprofit. I also assume that people were going to be very upfront and diligent about what was going on. And that's where I come

from. So when I got there and I I started questioning everything and calling out all the inconsistencies and the inaccuracies and, you know, from unit price to, you know, extended price where things just made no sense. I really did feel like a piece of chewing gum. And I say this so literally because I was being like pulled and twisted in every different direction. But because I didn't have the power of the pen, I had no budget sign off. I could just talk as much as I wanted and I could point out as many things I wanted, but at the end of the day, I didn't, I wasn't allowed to sign off. That wasn't my role. That was the Picks roll. So, you know, I became, I became this like excessive noise. And I,

I drove everyone crazy because I didn't stay in my lane. My lane was, here's the budget. We're going to spend, you know, I ended up spending, what, over $100 million. And here's me saying, okay, I've been doing this for 20 years, planning for saves on fashion week, working with Vogue, Lincoln Center. Like, I know that these costs are just outrageous. and I had no problem calling that out. And I had no problem telling Maloney. No problem telling Donald again. But when you started calling it out, were you surprised?

Were they just like, were they like, this is what it all costs? I mean, well, here's the thing. I do understand that it's a premium, right? I understand what you've got, you know, again, and now it end up being six weeks before. David Mon ain't cheap. So you obviously know what these things are supposed to cost and on the very high end. Okay, so David Mon wasn't even supposed to be involved at all. So David Mon only got involved.

So imagine, I started working on this November, let's say 10th. Right. I called David Mon to come to D.C., pack up a U-Haul truck, and meet me there on January 4th. Now, and he was in Africa. He was in Africa planning a wedding. And I said to Melania, you are not going to have a dinner. You're not going to have any tables. You're not going to have a napkin.

Forget about music. Performances? Forget about it. I called my, you know, the people I know in the industry, in the music industry, I called Ron Delsner. I mean, imagine, like, you know, he started, you know, I don't know if you know Robin Jonesbee. Yes. Yeah. Like, we love Ron.

And I called Ron, and he was, and I had worked for Ron. And, you know, I even called John Sykes. Right. And I, you know, produced to VH1 book, Fashion Award with John. I was like, guys, I really don't know what to do here. And they were really honest. And they were like, no way. Right.

No, like, no one's going to be, you know, performing at the inauguration. And so. So, you know, the messaging was Donald's the biggest celebrity. There's no one, you know, bigger and better. So that was the messaging. And we created this American songbook. And let me tell you, we got some great individuals that were involved with, you know, that had been on the voice.

And, you know, Mark Burnett came to the rescue with all of his people to produce the inauguration, to broadcast the inauguration, to bring his performers. Mark Burnett has a special relationship with Trump, right? Yes. They're very close. Right. And he knows where, I mean, he's got all the tapes and everything, too. You know, I can't say for sure because I've never seen them. Right. But, you know, it was never supposed to be spoken.

Like, I had to tiptoe. And I remember, you know, I had so many emails to Rick Gates and conversations. And even Malanya, I was like, well, is Mark Burnett involved or he's not involved? Because there was this, like, entertainment committee. And so I thought on the top of the org chart, seeing Mark Burnett's name, I was so excited. I was like, oh my God, there was Mark Burnett, Irving Azov. I mean, Clyde Davis, I mean, the biggest of the best. So you imagine when I learned that none of them were involved, except Mark Burnett. But I wasn't supposed to say anything.

So I didn't for a very long time. And again, when it was in the New York Times that Mark, Tom, and Donald were talking about, Donald being picked up in a helicopter on the top of Trump Tower being airlifted off to DC for the inauguration and having a ticker date parade. You know, all I thought about was the mess in New York City that it was going to leave. Yeah. Jesus.

You know, it was, let's bring reality TV to Trump Tower. Yeah. So what happens that you and Melania have a falling out? The inauguration has passed. I stayed in Washington, D.C., the day after, which was

my birthday, the 21st of January with my family. And then they all went back home on the 22nd, which was Sunday, and I stayed to go to the White House to meet Melania, the first state of America. Right. And Donald Trump, the President of the United States, back in the house. So there I am walking into the White House around 3 o'clock in the afternoon. And Melania takes me on a tour of the East Wing. So I get in there, I'm solo as could be. And I was solo the whole time, unfortunately, throughout this process. And I think that was the hardest part for me to contend with.

but I always knew Melania had my back and I had hers. And so what actually happened where everything went sideways was I had spent, you know, during the inauguration as well as the first three months of planning the entire East Wing for her with her and interviewing all the different positions and helping her bring in, you know, her social secretary, all the people that I worked with at the inauguration. She hadn't even met some of them yet. Right. You know, again, we were desperate.

There was no long list of people. Like, it wasn't like, you know, anyone was calling saying, hey, can have a job of the administration like that are right now? Right. Nobody wanted to work there. Not at all. I actually hired my cousin, I actually begged my cousin to come work for me at the White House and do a double job.

And then I took her salary and her title away because there were no budgets for Maloney because Ivanka had taken them all. But that's a side story. We'll get married. I mean, I was offered a salary and an AP title, and an assistant to the president. It's not they didn't want a title or that I didn't want a budget or salary. It's that there weren't any.

And in order for me to have a chief of staff that was there full time, I had to give that up. So if people actually really knew what went on, they, I think would, well, actually, they know how chaotic and horrible the administration ran and that it was, again, the first lady had nothing really except scraps. She had positions with really low salaries, unfortunately, because the purpose and the point, and I really did believe it was Melania, was that we could create. this like lincolnian group of women in the East Wing that would create this amazing was not called be best we had children first or speak up but she didn't want it to be speak up because michel obama's was something up didn't milania know that avonka was really going to be the first lady and she was kind of like

ancillary well i don't think you would ever expect that your stepdaughter or your daughter or whatever or any other person in the world would assume that role or try to, the entitlement that I saw in Ivanka and witnessed throughout the entire time I was there next to Melania, it was so brutal, and it would be catastrophic to any other administration. This one had happened to work because Melania wasn't doing as much as any other First Lady had been. But, you know, Ivanka came in and she really, I mean, first, First weekend. Okay, first weekend, Malanya was not there.

The first weekend after that weekend that I left on the 22nd, I came back to D.C. that Wednesday. That Friday, Malanya didn't come to D.C. that weekend. But Ivanka stayed and Donald stayed. I was there. And all of a sudden, you know, this is, that's the weekend Donald signed the, immigration, what was it called? The ban.

Yeah, yes. Ivanka shows finding worry. Now, if you couldn't be more, tone deaf, children are being separated from their parents and here you're screening a film where, again, this child, fish or not, is being separated from its mother? Is that because Ivanka is dumb or is that because Ivanka is evil? Listen, I say it as it is. I think it's a mixture. I really do. I think that Ivanka is Donald in a suit. Right. All of the Trumps are taught to be Trumps, right? They don't show emotion. And I do say this. Like, you know, constantly

I say Trump is a Trump is a Trump because they are, you know, authentically and unapologetically skin deep and all self-serving and their attitudes and disrespect for each other is, again, you have to be on the inside to see it and feel it. So Ivanka and Jared, you know, I considered myself roadkill. Well, Melania was more roadkill than I was. You know, Ivanka broke every rule, right? So she impinged on Melania's duties while overstepping her rank and boundaries. And I mean that in the sense, like, she poached individuals that we were, for the East Wing, that we were vetting to have for Melania, Kaylee McInnelly, Mercedes Schlaap.

I mean, these were people Melania was looking to bring in. And, you know, so we also called her the serial poacher. And, you know, so it was deceptive. But you don't go and divert, you know, in hard. hire people that the first lady's looking to bring in. But, you know, look, Ivanka was also smart in the sense of things like when I was in the hospital, you know, Stephanie Grisham, who was in the West Wing, it was a perfect timing for Ivanka to place Stephanie in the East Wing. And, you know, the pattern clearly emerged, right? I say the princess wanted to be, you know,

the princess wanted to render Melania irrelevant. And, you know, and Melania refers to. of them as snakes to Jared and Ivanka. And they'll do anything to get what they want. And they do. But Trump doesn't mind that his wife and his favorite daughter don't get along? I think that there's a brand. And again, I could be wrong here. This is my own personal opinion. Trump brand belongs to the Trump blood.

And Ivanka owns that Trump name. And everything associated with it. Because when Melania, I mean, again, you think about, you know, her spas and her clothing line. her accessories, whatever. When Melania began her beauty business, she slapped an M on some bottles and thought it would sell out because

she was Melania Trump. Well, she needed the tea, right? So, I do believe that he puts, when it comes to business, Ivanka gets what Ivanka wants. And when it comes to the residential quarters, that's Melania's area. And it was after that weekend where Melania said, no more, you know,

come and go, no more using the screening room whenever you'd like. Just as she had in city that was her home, this was going to be her home. And the same rules needed to apply. So this is probably a good time to play one of the clips you provided where you two talk about Ivanka. And now we'll play this tape from your book, Melania and me. It is. Yeah. How's Princess? I don't know. I don't, I don't know. I didn't. No, I don't see her. You know, she was not at the trip. So I saw her for, you know, five minutes. Hi. How are you?

in the White House and no, I don't know. I don't, I saw Jared because he was flying with us. Right. I guess they're good. I don't know what they're doing, what they're planning. I read the story in New York Times about them. You read it, right? The one that they're saying, yes, the big one, that they're going to take even a bigger role.

Yeah. So I don't know. I don't, I'm not involved in the West Wing because I'm so busy with my stuff. I know. It's so much planning and so much going on. And it's also so much smarter? Oh, no. It's like it's, and you know what?

In one way, not that they will, you know, listen to me or, you know, they have an own, own paste, own staff, you know, and then they would not do it, whatever. And I said, I'm just wasting the energy for what? But you were right. But you knew that day one. Yeah, I started day one. I didn't. My day one there, I tried to bang my head against the wall.

But you, you know what? And then you say, like, oh, my God, I waste so much time and meetings and all that stuff. And they do it their own way. For what? I mean, I'm so busy with my staff and all the stuff. So when you're talking there, it's a lot of what you just described. is just that Jared and Ivanka just walk all over

into things that should be hers. But particularly, like, this doesn't cause drama in the family, like where they're fighting outwardly? You know, it's this mutual distrust, friction and suspicion of one another. And, I mean, that's really the only way to say it, you know? And I really think that, like,

Melania was stonewalled, right? There was constant interference. If it wasn't one roadblock, it was another, whether I couldn't get a contract, I couldn't hire someone, she couldn't, you know, whatever it was with her initiative. It was just, again, and that had to do with the fact that, you know, Ivanka came first. And, you know, but here's an interesting fact that I think that I want to point out, I think we can all make something the fact that what was particularly maybe going not only to us, but also to Melania, was that Ivanka and Jared were no more qualified. to be engaged in any government governing or the country than she was, right? Right. Or that I was or, you know, that any of us that had never held those positions. So to hear Ivanka put her name in the same sentence as, you know, working with General Kelly.

It's like, oh, my God, how could you even, who would do that? Who would be so disrespectful to say something like that and think, but she genuinely thinks it and believes it? Unfortunately, this is all the time we have to air this portion of the interview with Stephanie. But next week, we will be airing the rest of it, including tons more clips that Stephanie has provided of her and Melania's conversations and tons more of fun color into the story. Before we get into things, we have a fun little treat. There are so many insane things happening in the world right now, and two episodes a week just aren't enough to cover it all. So, the new abnormal is going to release a limited run series of bonus interviews over the next few weeks for B.C. inside members only. We'll release a new one each Sunday, but listen carefully. Only beast inside

members will have access to these. So head over to the new abnormal.thedailybeast.com to become a beast inside member now. That's new abnormal.the dailybeast.com. Dan Diamond is a health reporter at Politico covering the pandemic and this administration's handling of it. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast because I'm like a big fan of your work. You have an amazing story this week or whatever, a day ago, which is like a year ago, about what's going on. Can you just sum it up a little bit? Well, first, Molly, thanks for having me on your podcast. I wasn't sure I cursed enough to be invited, but here I am.

I made the cut. I had a story go up on Wednesday. The headline of the story is, quote, we want them infected, colon. Trump appointee demanded, quote, herd immunity strategy. emails reveal. And what this story was about was a Trump appointee in the health department who spent months emailing senior officials, people like CDC director Robert Redfield, FDA commissioner Steve Hahn, the people in charge of the health communication strategy, a Trump appointee named Paul Alexander trying to convince these officials to let Americans be

infected as a way of controlling COVID-19. In the thinking of Paul Alexander, the more people people who were infected by COVID, the greater the possibility of something that he believed that some conservatives have argued that we would get herd immunity in the population, that enough people would be immune to COVID that we could reopen the economy like President Trump wanted. Now, this is an astoundingly terrifying theory to a lot of people in public health. Tony Fauci has shot this idea down. Pretty much everybody, right? Pretty much everybody who is credible and anyone who's worried about the consequences. It seems like they were pretty bad with HHS to begin with, but once the pandemic hit, they really sort of took it to the next level, like putting in people like Michael Caputo.

Talk to me. HHS has been a cesspool of backstabbing and fighting for influence, people jockeying for the year of President Trump. And this is well before the pandemic. We wrote a bunch of stories at Politico about fights between Secretary Alex Azar and Medicaid chief, Seema Verma. They're arguably the two most important people for health policy in America. Asar leads the entire cabinet department. Seema Verma is in charge of Medicare, Medicaid, the Affordable Care Act, a lot of other policies. But the two of them have not seen eye to eye in years. And there is a rivalry over which one has more influence at the White House. That laid the groundwork in many ways for the chaos that followed at the beginning of

this year when Azar was installed briefly as the head of the coronavirus task force, and people like Seema Verma were very unhappy with Azar and complaining to their allies in the White House. So it has been a trouble spot for a long time. We've done a lot of reporting at Politico about those troubles. And I think the American people got much more familiar with the chaos at HHS this year. Could you talk to us about Paul Alexander, who was the main part of your story a bit and what his story was and how he came to be a part of this? Paul Alexander arrived before Scott Atlas, though he occupied a less influential perch. But I think it's indicative of where the Trump administration wanted to go. Back in the spring, Michael Caputo was handpicked by President Trump to be his

top communications guy at the health department. Now, I broke that story with Daniel Lippman, colleague at Politico. And Molly, it was one of those stories where it made no sense why someone like Michael Caputo with no prior healthcare experience would be thrown in during the pandemic to lead all communications efforts for the federal health department. But at the same time, it made perfect sense, right? This is a guy who's a longtime ally of President Trump. They go back decades. He's someone who very much wants to protect the president, make sure the president's message is being amplified. And Paul Alexander was a friend of Michael Caputo. I believe they make sense. Because Michael Caputo had a radio show and Paul Alexander would call in.

That's how they became connected. As Rick Wilson says, there was fuckeray. That's your clinical term, not mine. I'm just a reporter. But I will say it was an unusual path that I don't think I've ever seen before. And Paul Alexander was a part-time professor at McMaster University in Canada, not an infectious disease expert. Of course not. Michael Caputo and others would say is he was an expert in studying health research. He was the guy who could analyze different studies and tell someone like Caputo what he needed to know. But Molly, the thing is, you don't need to bring in a guy who's going to tell you what the science is when you're at the health department. You can just turn to Tony Fauci and ask Tony Fauci to tell you what's up.

Right. But that guy knows what he's doing. And, you know, expertise is not a thing. I think it's not just the issue of expertise. It's that Tony Fauci is not going to tell Michael Caputo or Donald Trump what they want to hear. Someone like Paul Alexander would. And later we saw that was Scott Atlas, too. These were people who were widely despised by health officials and by some Trump appointees. But the people who mattered at the core, starting with the president, they sang. the tunes that they wanted to hear. That sounds completely right. So did you get a sense right away when Michael Caputo went to HHS that Michael Caputo was Michael Caputoing?

I hadn't had much exposure to Michael Caputo before he arrived at HHS. He had taken some stories that I had written a little out of context on Twitter. That was basically all I knew about him. But when he got to HHS, we did get off on a pretty combative start because I was writing a lot of aggressive stories about what the administration was doing

or mostly not doing. And it was a very different experience with him in charge of public affairs. Now, I do think Caputo did something that lots of people in D.C. don't do. He often would confirm things that other people would shy away from. When we had damaging information sometimes about the administration, Caputo would say, yes, that's true, but let me tell you why we think it's the right answer. And I think there's some merit in being able to deal with a comms person like that. But I also think that Caputo and the messages that he was trying to shape at the health department during the pandemic were things that were concerning and disturbing. And Paul Alexander really got on my radar screen three months ago when I reported that he was trying to edit the CDC's morbidity and mortality weekly reports. Are you familiar with those reports, Molly?

Yes, a little bit, yes. I don't know if your listeners would know these reports, but... Yeah, can you do a little explanation here? The morbidity and mortality weekly reports are sacred text in the CDC. These are the scientific findings that are published regularly. They're often about COVID-19 these days, but a sample report might be CDC scientists went to a community. They studied how COVID-19 was being transmitted.

They came back, shared their findings, and now doctors and researchers and media and the general public can learn what the CDC learned. So these are very important documents. Tony Fauci, 40 years ago, was reading one of these early MMWRs. It was about HIV, the first time HIV had been reported, and it changed his career. Tony Fauci decided he was going to become an infectious disease expert. So extremely important reports, Paul Alexander and Michael Caputo were convinced that scientists at the CDC were writing these reports in ways to hurt President Trump, when in reality, they were just

writing the truth that coronavirus was deadly, that it was spreading, and that the consequences could be severe. Were they able to actually edit any of it, though, and change the numbers or now? As far as I'm aware, and I've been pushing on this for weeks, I haven't found a report that was significantly edited. There were some slight wording changes that Caputo and Alexander or wanted, but it's possible that career scientists were okay with that, too. It's a little unclear to me how much was career scientists trying to protect the... Placade. Exactly, exactly. I mean, for, no doubt, for months, there were pressure campaigns put on these scientists. So I think if there were changes around the edges, there's some sympathy on my end for why they felt like they needed

to accommodate these pressures, but nothing significant that I've been able to find. Can you talk a little bit about Scott Atlas and his departure and the damage he did before that, you know? Public health experts are convinced that Scott Atlas is on the short list of most destructive figures of this pandemic. He is a radiologist who is affiliated with Stanford's Hoover Institution, a conservative think tank. He's not an expert in infectious disease, but he went on Fox News a bunch of times and essentially praised the president's response,

said that concerns about coronavirus were overblown, and people in the White House heard that message and liked it and brought him in. And almost immediately, Scott Atlas took over big parts of the coronavirus task force meetings. He was the doctor that people like Donald Trump wanted to hear from, not people like Tony Fauci or not even Deborah Brooks, the infectious disease expert that they brought in at the beginning of the year to be the coronavirus. physician expertise. So I think Scott Atlas, by catching the president's ear and constantly telling him

that coronavirus was not as bad as the media made it out to be by playing down the need for aggressive interventions, it was damaging. It was dangerous. And his colleagues at Stanford have repeatedly denounced him. They've gotten into legal tiffs over this. Stanford itself has tried to distance itself from Dr. Alice. Now, he left a few weeks ago. It was after the election. Yeah, I'm curious about that. Ostensibly, it's because his status as a special government employee had come up for either expiration or renewal. You can do these stents for a number of months in the government. The thing is, Molly, if they really wanted to keep them around, they would have figured out a way to do it. But it seemed like a convenient way. The election was over.

coronavirus was still worsening. As one senior person told me, it seemed like both he and Trump had come to the end of the line of their use for each other. Molly John Fast. Rick Wilson. As you were aware, in Gitmo. Get Mo Wilson.

As you were aware, Satan Federal Law and International Treaty requires every single show we include a fuck that guy. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Let's just fuck that guy for today. My fuck that guy, you know, what, it's going to be Kyle Smith from the National Review. Go fuck yourself, writing several

pieces on how he doesn't consider Dr. fucking Biden. It's now Dr. fucking Biden. Dr. fucking Biden's dissertation on community colleges to be worthy. Kyle Smith went to Yale, of course, and he really looks down on the doctoral program in Delaware. Hey, Kyle, you can go fuck. Sorry, Rick Wilson, who is your fuck that guy? Was that not mean enough? You know, your boyfriend and Tucker did three episodes on it, too. Yeah, Tucker can go fuck himself too, but Kyle Smith really can go fuck himself. Why? Well, my fuck that guy today is Senator Ron Johnson, Rojo, of the great state of Wisconsin, a state for which I have a tremendous amount of love and affection. But I will say this about Senator Johnson. He spent this week using his position in the United States Senate to hold hearings to spread disinformation and lies about the 2020 election.

He is going to continue to beat this stupid drum for as long as he can get away with it. And I think that it is certainly one of the more repugnant things this week. So Ron Johnson, we'll be seeing you soon, by the way. You are also today's fuck that guy. On that note, we'll wrap up this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking with smart folks from The Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics, and science who will help us understand what's happening to our country and the world. We hope you'll subscribe to us.

your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. We're just getting started and don't want you to miss an episode. If you'd like to follow us on Twitter, I'm Molly JongFest, and he's the Rick Wilson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you again on the next episode. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded the Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast. and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline head to the daily beast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.