The Daily Beast Podcast - Is This When Ivanka Will Run Against Little Marco Rubio?

Episode Date: December 11, 2020

Ivanka and Jared have big plans...to move to Florida, and maybe start the tropical version of the Met Ball. “If you had $30 million to spend on 1.6 acres of empty space, where would you buy it?” Molly asks Rick. “Miami,” of course, to be somewhat near Trump’s favorite kid and son-in-law and witness when Ivanka primaries against Marco Rubio, he answers. Rick can see Trump turn against Rubio now: “I await the day that little Marco after applying his lip so firmly to Trump's, his entire critique of Donald Trump being in the form of elliptical, passive aggressive Bible verses when he wakes up and goes, wait, she filed for what? And then Trump comes out and tweets about it and says, little Marco was never with me. I put up with him because blah, blah, blah.” But when? In this episode of The New Abnormal, Rick and Molly make predictions. In the meantime, Rick makes another bleak prediction of Trump Republicans (“They are scheming and planning right now to do every possible thing they can to fuck this up and cause enormous damage and cause as much pain as possible in the lives of ordinary people.”) Then, Democracy Docket founder Marc Elias walks us through what it’s been like fighting against Trump’s voter fraud cases across the country, and explains the hilarious reason the president was able to win just one. And Daily Beast reporter Olivia Messer shares horrifying stories from her COVID superspreader coverage and some of the outlandish virus lies people have told her (and they actually believe.) Plus! How Biden can prevent the Hell that is a Trump 2024 campaign and Mike Pompeo is sketchy as fuck—and not just because he’s throwing a 900-person holiday party. Want more? Become a Beast Inside member to enjoy a limited-run series of bonus interviews from The New Abnormal. Guests include Cory Booker, Jim Acosta, and more. Head to newabnormal.thedailybeast.com to join now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi folks, it's Rick Wilson, and welcome to The Daily Beast's The New Abnormal. Hi, I'm Molly Jongfast, a left-wing pundit, and editor-at-large at the Daily Beast. I'm also an editor at The Daily Beast, a former Republican political strategist, best-selling author, and full-time troublemaker. We're here to have fun, sharp conversations with some of the smartest people in media, politics, business, and science that help make what's happening in the country and the world clearer. I'll try to keep Rick to the minimum number of F-bombs and try to keep our... kids, pets, and other wildlife sounds from invading our respective bunkers. Rick Wilson, if you had $30 million to spend on 1.68 acres of empty space, where would you buy it? Well, I would probably choose somewhere in the Miami area so I could be neighbors with Jared and Ivanka

Smith, who will soon be relocated to the area under an assumed name. Do we think Ivanka is going to primary little Marco? I absolutely think Ivanka is going to come to Florida and run for office. I await the day that Little Marco, after applying his lips so firmly to Trump's ass, and his entire critique of Donald Trump being in the form of elliptical, passive-aggressive-aggressive Bible verses, when he wakes up and goes, wait, she filed for, for, what? What?

And then Trump comes out and tweets about it and says, Little Marco was never with me. I put up with him because, blah, blah, blah. but my daughter, my beautiful, beautiful daughter, my daughter, who I think of constantly. Stop! We're going to have to be a bit. Occupied a very special place in my mental landscape. My beautiful daughter, Ivanka.

Life of my life. Fire of my loins. Ivanka, three syllables to go tripping down the tongue. Oh, man, did I just get that one? Yeah, I'll say. Woo-hoo. Lolita, baby. Yeah, Jesus Christ.

Are we just going to have to beep all of this or now? No, we're not beeping any of it. There was no overt statement that Donald Trump has a series of bizarrely incestuous ideations about his daughter. I never said that. You really, you kept it very classy. Yeah, you know me. So where would you buy your 1.68 acres?

What do we think? Jan and Ivanka seem awfully flush for government employees. Because you could buy a fucking county in Iowa for that. I mean, I'm not even kidding. You could go into any number of places around the country and get a little better bargain for that. But here's what they want, I think. These two struggling GS, whatever, as they were. Oh, well, they were SES.

So they're probably making, you know, a lavish government salary of maybe $180,000, $190,000 a year, which, you know, everybody's able to afford them $1.3 million. $1.30. I'm sorry. 30. 30.3 for 1.6 acres. piece of property down in Miami. But look, like so many people who come to Florida, they're looking for one of three things.

Low taxes, the prevalence of strip bars on a per capita basis. It's very orthodox, yes. Yes, and a chance to reboot because this is the state of like second, third, and fourth acts. So we've driven them from Manhattan. They cannot return. I don't hate to see it. You don't hate to see it.

And I'm sure that she'll start some sort of like tropical version of the Metball. Come on, Dad, little Ivanka's Mitt, ball and dog, hop-dard rodeo. How far do you live from Ivanka and Jared now? About 400 and something miles. Right. It's not convenient to be down and visit with them, as I'm sure we'll do on many, many weekends. Exactly. But give me a moment while I pull up the four-flight app on my iPad here,

because I need to just calculate how long it'll take me to fly myself down there, because, I mean, we're going to really want to spend a lot of quality time together. So you think that Ivanka now goes to Miami, licks her wounds, and figures out when she's going to start primary Marco? I think that's probably the case. And that could be the year also in 2022 when we have Laura Trump running in South Carolina. That's correct. And as one is looking forward to it. You know, my flight time in the arrow is roughly today, some decent wins today. About two hours and ten minutes down to Miami Executive.

I mean, that seems to me we could just actually drop in for cocktails. Yeah, all right. Let's not do that. Let's not do that. So, Rick, tell us about the seditious 17 and what exactly that is and what the hell is going on here. Well, 17 state attorney generals have filed a brief asking the Supreme Court to overthrow the elections of four states that voted weirdly. they were the four states that voted against Donald Trump, and all of these attorney generals happened to be Republicans,

happened to be Trump's suckups, and they happen to also be engaged in a gigantic corrosion of the American system and our political and faith in our political institutions, but who's counting? It really is a repugnant move on their part. It really has, I think, long-term implications, because more and more on the right, I'm picking up the sound of this, this desire to secede, this desire to be done, this desire to have, right, this desire to have a civil war, this idea that, this idea that at no point should the desires of Donald Trump be outweighed by the actual votes of the American people. And these folks know what's happening, they know what they're doing, and they are right now, I mean, you can't describe this more accurately than by calling it seditious, because it is.

is. This is seditious. Can we just talk about this for second? There's no world in which this, like, they couldn't afford to lose New York and California. What do you mean? Say they're like, we're going to take all the red states and make our own thing. Right. If you blow out California, Washington, Oregon, New York, Massachusetts, and say we're a country, you are a country. You're just not a necessarily a first world country. I mean, you have knocked, you have knocked out an enormous part of the economic heart of the nation. And the idea, look, seditious talk is mostly masturbatory. And look, we get a little bit of this shit every time, every cycle, where, you know, people on the left say, oh, fuck you, we're going to secede if a Republican

wins. And people on the right say, oh, fuck you, we're going to secede. But now when you've got But when you have state attorneys general saying it, that's another thing. When you've got thought leader of the Republican Party Rush Limbaugh on the air saying, we should be talking about secession, and when you've got people in these Attorney General's offices saying, well, we want to invalidate the votes of people from four states where there is no credible accusation of voter fraud whatsoever. There's no credible accusation of misbehavior or illegality whatsoever. And yet they're doing this to please Donald Trump and to continue a pernicious effort to overthrow an election, then the political reaction in that space is going to eventually come up and bite them on the ass. They should really hope that they never get what they want because the world would be very, very different. And it would not be. And look, these people are sending a very clear message.

They're willing to shatter the American experiment in order to please Donald Trump. Right. And to keep power. I mean, it's funny because today we saw that Mitch McConnell has sort of poo-pooed the COVID relief bill. And you had said that was coming. And they're filling it up with poison pills. So they've got an amendment in the COVID relief bill. And if it passes, it says basically no one can ever be held liable for anything ever again when it comes to damage is caused by COVID or by, you know, if a company gives its employees COVID by making them work in a meatpacking factory without PPE, they can't sue them.

You know, that sort of shit. It is the fuckery, which I talked about with you on Tuesday of this week. And it's not shocking, and nobody should be surprised by it. It is part and parcel of who and what they are now. So there is going to be no COVID relief bill. There may be a COVID relief bill, but I predict it will be a pocket-sized dwarf COVID relief bill that will not do any real good for the American people. At a time where things are getting very nervous now, by the way. Right. also we need money for states to give the vaccine. So if the states don't have money, they're not going to be able to disseminate the vaccine. Just remember exactly what I said the other day. All of this now

should be seen through a very clear frame. That very clear frame is this. Donald Trump's allies understand that he lost. So their goal now is not to have anything positive or affirmative out there where Joe Biden can say, hey, I help take care of this problem. They are looking to 2022 in the Senate races. They are looking to 2024 in the presidential. They are scheming and planning right now to do every possible thing they can to fuck this up and to cause enormous damage and to cause as much pain as possible in the lives of ordinary people. Yay.

Did you even know that Trump had a vaccine summit, Rick Wilson? I did not, Molly. Was it about his bold personal efforts to lead the research and to deploy a highly effective vaccine distribution protocol? It interestingly enough devolved almost immediately into the election was stolen from May. Of course it did. Shocker! He was like vaccines. None of the people, you know, the head of Pfizer wasn't there.

Fauci wasn't there. This one wasn't there. And then he was like, vaccines, vaccines, American exceptionalism. And then he was like, the election was stolen from me. So there you go. Let's all have a party with no masks. You know, yesterday, Mike Pompeo, who I actually think is the sleesiest member of this administration, had a huge Christmas party. Of course he did.

With no masks. He's headed back to Kansas where he apparently is going to run for something or another or president. Also, he's a disgrace to West Point. Let's just say that. He's sketchy as fuck, too. I mean, like, all the, every, you know, every Google search is like, had his wife use State Department resources for parties, had his son, used State Department resources for his own career. He is a guy of astounding skeeziness. Yeah, I'm impressed. I mean, even in this world, sets the bar. Talk to us about the attorneys generals. There's nothing more ambitious in American politics I've discovered over the years than the spouse of an attorney general, be they male or female.

But there's nothing more ambitious than an attorney general. They always say that, you know, A.G. is aspiring governor. I think there's going to be a lot of people who are going to want to rise in their states who are doing this right now to boost their future prospects with the Trump base. I also will tell you one of them, Ken Paxson, of Texas, who is, Ken Paxson is an ethical train wreck. Indicted, right? Yeah.

Indicted but never charged. He was five years ago. Who, when he was having an affair with a staffer, asked a major donor in Texas to get her jobs. But of course. Imagine an ethical train wreck occurring on the slopes of dumpster fire mountain just

down the road from burning tire chasm. He is a shit, hot mess. He is so lavishly corrupt that even people in Miami go, oh man, dude, you've got to clean up, bro. This is bad. So, you know, look, there's nothing. There's nothing in this that doesn't reek of three things. The stench of Trumpism, because these guys are afraid of the base and afraid of the future, a willingness to burn this country to the goddamn ground. Well, for Trump.

Because Mr. Trump needs to be. If I don't help. Mr. Trump, they'll turn on me. Yeah, they will, you dumb fuckers. And finally, it just represents that there is no such thing anymore as conservative jurisprudence from an elected attorney general. These people understand what they're doing. They know what they're, they know exactly what's happening, they know exactly what's going on, they're going to pursue it, they're going to, they're going to continue to engage in these things, they're going to try to hack this election for Donald Trump. And even though I don't think it's, It's going to work.

They're going to do everything they can to try to blow things up as long as they can in order to help this president. It is repulsive. And y'all are all on the list, you motherfuckers. It's not going to work. No, it's not going to work. But they are ruining themselves and showing themselves to be partisan acts who don't give a shit about democracy, which is something, an important data point, if nothing else. Even today, when they've been called out on this, and they're quietly whispering to people. And I spoke to a friend of mine spoke to one of the attorneys general in question last night who said, I have to.

Right. He's calling. I have to. He called the governor. The governor called me, and he being Trump. Right. So they're going to keep trying to play this fuck around until the last dog dies. Yeah.

Unbelievable. It's crazy. It's crazy. Mark Elias. is the founder of Democracy Docket and has been the lead man fighting the lawsuits the Trump administration has filed to overturn the election and ruin democracy. Welcome, Mark. You have like been the man for all of this. First of all, how did you start doing this? And second of all, are they just so dumb? I mean, what kind of lawyers are these people? So I started doing this

years ago when I graduated law school and came to Washington, D.C. in the mid-90s. And Newt Gingrich had just taken over control of the house. And he was sort of the grandfather of Trumpism, right? Yeah, I always think that. Right? He was like the person who understood that you could engage in scurrilous attacks without facts on your opponents. And so he kind of, I sometimes credit him with my career

because it was kind of like his weaponizing of the politics of personal destruction that led to the growth of the need for lawyers around all of these things. things. And so that's how I got into it. You know, everyone says, you know, let's go back to the good old time when, you know, Democrats and Republicans got along. Remember, Newt Gingrich led the impeachment effort against President Clinton. So it was a rough and tumble time then, but nothing like what we've seen with Trump now in the craziness that he's brought to the Republican Party. I don't quite really understand what their post-election legal strategy has been. One of the questions I always got during the pre-election period was who is the Republican Mark Elias?

Like, who is the person who is laying out kind of like the Uber legal strategy? And I'm never quite sure, but I sort of thought I understood what they were trying to do. They had a weird war on drop boxes. Right. Yes. But then, like, after the election, all of those lawyers who were involved pre-election kind of just like disappeared. And on came like one wave of crazies followed by another. So that now we're down to like the Cracken conspiracy people.

Can you explain to me? Sydney Powell, when you saw that stuff, were you like, what? Like, what was your feeling? So I have to say, when I saw it, I thought, this is wild. Like, you know, I've done, prior to this, I've done 10 statewide recounts contests, you know, sort of disputed elections. And, like, I'd never seen anything like this. And no less for a president of the United States. And so that was my initial reaction.

Then I started digging into it and realized just how error-ridden it was. So, like, it wasn't just, like, crazy, but it was, like, crazy and, like, not even internal. Like, sometimes you have a crazy conspiracy, but it all kind of holds together on its own internal logic. And this wasn't that. So, yeah. So I'm just going to read your statistics and you tell me if this is correct. At this point, you're at 66 cases. Yep.

Yeah, nine states. Yep. 14 active cases. Correct. And 55 victories. What was the one that you didn't win? So this is one of the biggest questions I get is the one we didn't win was there was a county in Pennsylvania that was giving voters who

needed their absentee ballots cured. So these are people who voted by absentee and their absentee ballot was on hold because they hadn't provided ID. There's a small number of voters for whom you have to provide ID if you vote by mailing the first election after you register.

And the county was giving voters nine days to provide that ID and the Trump didn't be sued to make it six days. So they shortened the period for those voters by three days. I keep saying it involved a few dozen votes. It may not involve, honestly, any votes.

I'm trying to be fair in its presentation. I'm assuming that there were some number of voters who showed up on days of 70. But it's not clear, but I'm trying to be accurate in the numbers. I mean, I know the larger implications of this are terrible. Do you think that they'll win anything here? Like this Texas case, can you talk? A lot of people are nervous about the Texas case. Will you talk about it?

Yeah. So, no, I don't think they'll win anything from here on, on out. And I know. That's not just like lawyer confidence. You're being square with us. I'm being totally square. Look, here's the thing about post-the, here's the thing about litigation, generally, but certainly post-election litigation.

I tell this to my clients all the time. There's no point in trying to spin the post-election. Like, the votes are the votes, and the courts are going to do what they are going to do. So honestly, I'd be better off telling us. you, oh yeah, we'll probably wind up, you know, three and 57. Because if I, because if we lose another one, and I said we're not going to, then, then, you know, people say, you said, we won't going to lose another one. When you look at the remaining cases, there aren't any that currently are, you know, even close to the borderline of meritorious. So, no, I think that what's left are really

the dead ender cases. These are people who are continuing to pursue litigation. literally, you know, after the safe harbor and four days before the electoral college. So, no, I don't think we'll lose anymore. In terms of Texas, there's no question I'm getting more right now than people concerned about Texas. I am not concerned about the Texas case. First of all, states don't get to sue other states over their election rules. You know, typically the cases that the Supreme Court hears between states involve border disputes or water rights. There's no right of Texas to determine how Michigan runs its elections. Second, I mean, parenthetically, if there were such a right, boy, do I have some news for Texas. And I'm sure that there are states like California

or New York, whose AGs would love to sue Texas to infranchise more than Texas. So I don't think that's going anywhere. What it does speak to, though, is something that I know you all have been active in addressing. And I think, you know, it's really sort of the next challenge for our democracy, which is how did we get to a place where, A, you know, the state of Texas files this ridiculous lawsuit, which, you know, is motivated by an AG who has his own legal problems perhaps. Yeah, right? He was indicted and he still hasn't gone to trial. Yeah, but how do you explain the other, you know, 17, 18 states, you know, supporting this? Like, what's going on in the Republican Party that it is acceptable for the Attorney General of Missouri to file this Kakamini brief in support of this ludicrous lawsuit?

Yeah. It's just to keep the base happy, right? It's to keep the base happy for sure. Right. But, you know, like, is that really a numerical winning strategy for these Republican AGs in their states? I mean, maybe. I don't know. I mean, it's Newt Gingrich, right? It's the soul of Newt Gingrich, right? Do whatever you can lie, cheat, and steal to get power. But it's still kind of like, who knew Newt. I mean, I guess we knew Newt Gingrich would be like this, but it's so interesting and terrible and scary. What's interesting about Newt Gingrich is how the story ends. As you all recall. The story ends with New Gingrich of him getting sanctioned by the Republican House.

Yep. Right, you had to pay a fine, and he essentially gets removed to speak. I mean, functionally, you know, he gets pushed out. And there doesn't seem to be that impulse in the current Republican Party. And I think that that's, you know, really, really problematic as we try to rebuild the institutions of democracy moving forward. Yeah, I'll say. I mean, that, yeah, I think that's true. Do you think that ultimately the biggest moment, I mean, certainly there were many moments,

but this weekend when the Supreme Court was like, you know, that one line, do you think that was a big win as these things go? Sure, it was a big win. I wouldn't necessarily say it was the most significant. I mean, I know in some sense, you know, people were waiting for the Supreme Court to weigh in one way or the other in one of these cases. But that case was really silly. I mean, that was a case brought by a Republican member of Congress who was trying to say that all vote by mail ballots in the state. Pennsylvania should be thrown out because they were all illegal. I think that when we look back on this, the watershed moments of the post-election will, number one, be the fact that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris had a commanding lead, and therefore there was nothing really in the margins. But I would say the things that we'll look back on will be, A, the fact that states certified their elections without delay. Except Wisconsin, right? Except Wisconsin. But Wisconsin, Wisconsin, Wisconsin, though, is following the process of Wisconsin law,

but we didn't see in Georgia or in Arizona or in Michigan, the state officials doing crazy stuff. Do anything that was outside the law. Yeah. That, I think, will be one thing. I think the other will be the Giuliani performance in the federal court in Pennsylvania. I think more so than the Supreme Court rejecting the appeal

in the other Pennsylvania case, I think that was the moment when a lot of right of center lawyers who wanted to give the benefit of the doubt that there was some there there came to realize, oh my God, there's really nothing here. Right. I mean, it is just amazing. When these other attorney generals signed on yesterday, chat I was having with a bunch of people who cover politics, we were like, oh, great. In any Republican trend, it only ever gets worse, it seems, with this party now. So we can now expect

that all we're going to hear is basically you having to contest every election until the dawn of time or your day passes? Is that correct? So it's one of the fears I have. I used to tell this story before this, but it's really apt now. You know, we went from from 1789 until 1974 before the U.S. Supreme Court found in a case out of Indiana, Senate race, that there was even a constitutional right for a state court to hear a recount in a federal election. And then we went from 74 to 2000 before that really hit the national consciousness in presidential elections. I don't know what happens after 2020.

Someone asked me a couple of days ago, what is the average number of lawsuit filed following an election? And I said the answer is zero. This is a radical departure from what we have ever seen before in elections, period, no less presidential elections. And the question is, can you ever put that genie back in the bottle? You can't, right? I think it's very hard. I mean, I think that, you know, after 2000, we saw more big recounts in contests than we had seen before 2000, because of Bush v. Gore. And I suspect that this will be a strategy that is now, you know, going to be part of the American political scene, which I think is really unfortunate.

You know, among the cases that we're currently dealing with right now are efforts by the Republicans, to contest the House and Senate elections for every Democrat in Minnesota. Now, I mean, think about that for a second. Whatever you may think have gone on around the country, those Democrats who won in Minnesota won in landslides. I mean, some of them won by 20, 30 points. And yet we're seeing the Republican challengers who lost these landslide elections bring election contests in state court.

So I do worry that this is now going to be a trend. that's really scary sometimes we have these interviews and I think oh I just want to die I'm sorry go on Jesse I imagine though since you are so in these fights I think like we now have a lot of idiots who

really are unconfident in our voting systems do you have any thoughts on what we can be doing to restore the confidence of even I think there's even educated people who like when they go and they see the way they vote they're like there's got to be a better way to do this Do you have any thoughts on what we could do to make voting better? So I think it's a complicated question because it involves two different problems.

One is a question of law and the other is a question of custom or norm. And we can certainly change the laws and I think we need to do so to make the legal system more protective of voting rights and ensure free and fair elections. The question, though, about norms is a tougher one. And it gets to your question about, are we going to see a flood of post-election litigation now forevermore? Because, you know, you want a system that allows for, you know, truly close elections to be contested. You want the circumstances that allows a truly, truly uncertain election result to have an opportunity to go through the judicial process without this kind of nonsense. So I think it's going to be both an issue of how do we reform the laws, but also how do we

reform people's understanding of what behavior is acceptable and not acceptable. So just curious, what can, I think a lot, I spend a lot of time thinking about, like, what are the guardrails that Biden could do to protect democracy for when Trump runs again in So one thing is that if we prevail in the two Senate races in Georgia, we need the priority of Congress and the president to be democracy reform because some of the things that we have seen can be fixed by simple legislation. And we can't fix everything. Like I said, there are some things that have to be fixed through hearts and minds. But there is a lot of what's wrong with the system. a lot of the abuses that have been the product of laws that are either antiquated or laws that are

simply not equipped for the kind of bad actors that we saw on the other side. Yeah, so interesting. So you think that just sort of changing the law, I mean, because it's all state by state, though, right? Well, it is, except remember, Congress is given the right in the federal constitution to preempt any or all laws related to federal elections. So Congress did that with respect to election day, right? Congress set by statute a uniform election day. Prior to that, states could set whatever day they wanted for elections. Congress preempted that. Congress could preempt and pass a law that says,

for example, you need a certain number of early vote days, a certain number of, you know, a certain process for vote by mail, but it can also, you know, set uniform standards for the processing and reporting of mail ballots and, you know, the timing in the process for challenging election results. And, you know, the Electoral Count Act, which sets the Safe Harbor and then the Electoral College is such a law. But it's not, you know, I think it did not contemplate the kind of malevolence that we've seen from President Trump and his supporters. So, so, Mark, to end on a fun note, I know we saw a lot of ridiculousness in the press of what went on with the clowns that you were up against.

But was there anything that people haven't heard about that you were like, what the hell I cannot believe this is my life? I think that the most, I mean, there's so many of these things that I couldn't believe. I figured this was a ripe environment for you to pick from. Yeah, I mean, there's so much of this that has been sort of bizarre. I mean, obviously Texas suing the other states would be way up there in the things you never thought you'd see. But I'd say for some reason, the thing that has stuck with me is,

so the Cracken case in Georgia, right? The Cracken case is all these conspiracy theory cases. The Cracken case in Georgia, they draft the Cracken case. They post the Cracken case online before they file it with the court. In that period of time, like, I'd really people point out typos on the cover page.

Like not, you can it be literally, literally, They spelled district wrong, as in district court, right, which is the name of the court. So I really thought that when we'd see the actual filed copy, that would be fixed. Right. But no, they rolled with it. And so I don't know why that struck me as just like, I think that if I had posted a pleading that at a typo and, like, it had become, like, a reported thing in the case, and I hadn't yet filed it, like, I definitely. would have fixed the typos before filing. Do you think Rudy Giuliani is not a very good constitutional lawyer?

I have been very respectful of the lawyers on the other side. I've always said that, you know, in the pre-election of the voting rights, I said that they had excellent lawyers, which they did. Rudy Giuliani is not an excellent constitutional lawyer. You know, I've been very circumspecting in taking shots at the other lawyers because I know lawyers take shots at me about my strategic decisions. Did I litigate this case the way they would, or did they, And so I'm very, you know, I'm very circumspect about that because the other side has been dealt an impossible hand here with a limited client and a losing cause.

But having seen Rudy Giuliani now in his performance in court, he is not an excellent constitutional lawyer. Thank you so much. That was great. Before we get into things, we have a fun little treat. There are so many insane things happening in the world right now and two episodes a week just aren't enough to cover it all. So the new abnormal is going to release a limited run series of bonus interviews over the next few weeks for Beast Inside members only. We'll release a new one each Sunday. But listen carefully.

Only Beast Inside members will have access to these. So head over to the new abnormal. Dot the Daily Beast.com to become a Beast inside member now. That's new abnormal. dot the daily beast.com. Olivia Messer is the lead reporter on COVID-19 for the Daily Beast. And today she's going to talk to us about all of the iriscible. responsible super spreaders.

Hi, Olivia. Hi. What the hell is going on? I need you to be more specific. No, I can't. I'm sorry. This is a very open-ended question. Go.

Talk to me about the story you just were telling us about because that's actually quite fascinating. So I was looking into some of the state lawmakers who've gotten sick this week and last week, North Dakota State Senator Ray Holmberg confirmed to us that he, after having symptoms and after getting tested, went to a luncheon where he wore his mask except for when he was eating. And, you know, at that point, he was conversing with other officials at this luncheon. So we like to call that a Rand Paul, right? Well.

I mean, he didn't swim in the Senate pool, so maybe he's not a full Rand Paul. It's tough to say, I've written about a number of what we would call irresponsible COVID behaviors. It's hard because my view is so skewed now, having covered so many giant super spreader events that, you know, I'm thinking, okay, well, there were only eight people in a room. That's only eight people. Right. It's all about perspective, right? Those are still eight people and they have lives and families. And now those families need to be informed, I would think. Why do Democrats never do that? Well, it's interesting because I was writing about many of the holiday parties. and fundraisers that are being thrown by Republicans. And I was looking into the same things from Democrats and really could only find, for example, there are 40...

You can tell me Democrats, I'm happy to shame them too. No, I understand. There were 40 Texas lawmakers who were holding fundraisers this holiday season. And I was looking through the list of Democrats and almost all of them were outdoors or one was doing a virtual while, you know, Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick had about 50 people

and gave out little Christmas ornaments with his signature on them. And COVID. Right. So it's tough because you see the really, like, terrible optics hypocriticism. Right. Where a mayor says on TV, don't travel, and then immediately goes to the airport. But that's very different than the 12.

White House events that will be indoors and celebrating the holidays, many of which won't involve people wearing masks. Or, you know, the parents throwing 300-person super-spreader homecoming dances for their kids. So it's a scale problem, really. The State Department had a 200-person event, and Pompeo invited 900 people to one next week. How would they even do that? It's tough for me to imagine. I reached out to a county judge in Texas who was throwing a Christmas lunch for all county employees. And he really proudly told me that only 500 people were going to be there.

And I thought that sounded like a really large number. I mean, it's indoors. Even if you mask in distance, I think a lot of people today are looking at the South Korea study, right? Yeah, but also just there are. was an event in New Hampshire where the swearing-in ceremony for the state legislature, the House Speaker, died of COVID. And a lot of people refused to attend the swearing-in

because they were worried there weren't enough precautions after some other lawmakers had tested positive for the virus and were planning to go. Like, they just keep doing this, right? It's like they never can learn. I have spent so much time thinking about what the psychology has to be to, convince yourself that this kind of behavior is worth it. And I just come back to thinking that some

people maybe can't look mortal vulnerability in the face directly. It's just too hard because acknowledging that life is fragile is too vulnerable. And in order to continue living their lives without having a breakdown, they must continue living their lives as if there is no pandemic. But that's, you know, me, my armchair, psychologizing. Because otherwise, I interview these mothers who throw these giant events. And I don't know, it's very strange. They are very willing to tell me that, you know, I'm corrupt and that the media lies. We invented the hoax so that the Democrats could steal the election, and that's why masks don't work.

I don't actually follow all of the logic. But the very sound logic, I sort of prefer that to the approach of just, I can't call something a lie without knowing, without a doubt, it's intention. But when I asked the New York Young Republican Club, whether they were holding. Yeah, let's talk about that.

Go on. Yeah. So I spoke to the president, Gavin Wack. And I asked where the event was being held. He wouldn't tell me. I said, I received a tip that it had been moved to New Jersey over COVID regulations. And he said it has not been moved. So I thought that sounds a little bit like he's being coy.

So I said, point blank, is the event still in New York City? And are you just keeping its location under wraps? And he said, that is correct, period. But it was in Jersey City. Right. So then a few hours later, you know, we see videos of the event at a venue in Jersey City. And I contacted him to say, I mean, we had a follow-up story. So I needed to reach out for comment again anyways.

And I said, when I asked you point blank, was that a lie? Or did something change? And he said, I don't know what you're talking about. So I said, scroll up about two inches in the chat history. And he said, well, I was only responding to the second half of your sentence. My larger question, are you surprised that the Manhattan Republicans Club known for incredible scumminess is displaying incredible scuminess? I really don't like feeling lied to. I can't say for sure that's what happened, but, you know, I'm much more used to. I'm going to go out on a limb here. I am so used to reaching out to people who are flouting guidelines and proud of it, who are like, fuck you, I threw a party, deal with it. That's the way that I am used to,

interacting with sources because I don't really talk to politicians very often. Right. It didn't surprise me. I am always aware that people could lie and I'm always checking information, but it made me pretty angry. Yeah. And a way that I wasn't, I wasn't prepared for. I think an interesting thing about that event was that the speaker, who is herself pretty

wacky actually dropped out and Matt Gates was the last minute speaker. They contended that that had been in the works for weeks. Right. So they're just liars. I can't say that for sure. Right. No leading the witness, Molly. As a reporter, I am. But as an opinion reporter, it's my opinion that they're huge liars.

There we go. That's what it is. I can't control what you say. only would I say. When you're covering these things and you're so used to being lied to, has anybody ever said like a truth about why they did one of these irresponsible things? And you were like, damn, well, you kind of have a point? I had a very long conversation with a father who sent his son to a homecoming dance in Georgia,

I believe. I mean, he talked for about 20 minutes about how hard of a time his kids have been having and how it really was hard to watch them struggle with depression and anxiety. And he believed that the virus only affects older adults. So in his mind, it seemed like a small sacrifice or not a sacrifice at all even. I think if you believe the things that are being said on Fox News and other sites that really tout this like 99% survival rate number that is not correct, then your decision making is automatically going to be different. I was thinking a lot. I took a road trip to relocate to Florida,

and I was extremely careful. And at some point, I fell face first out of a Jeep Wrangler that I was driving because I'm not used to getting out of really large vehicles. And I had my mask on. And, And I was on the ground and a bunch of people saw me take a tumble and a few motorcyclists rushed over to me because they saw what happened and offered to help. And I was like, please don't get anywhere near me. Yeah. And none of them had masks on. And I just sort of felt like this crazy person who was like on the ground being like,

there's a deadly virus, you know? Yeah. And these people were looking at me like, what are you talking about? What state? South Carolina. Yeah, that makes sense. It's South Carolina where Laura Trump may run for the Senate. What is the most disturbing?

You've done so much COVID reporting. What have you seen that you were like, oh, my God? This is going to be maybe different than what you're looking for. But I'm really shocked by both how brazen much of this super spreader event planning is and how little effort there is to hide it, but also on top of that, surprised at how little action, local government officials are taking with regard to it. So I find out about this winter formal that's being planned in Georgia. And I found all the Venmo receipts.

You know, the kids and their parents are sending money to a Venmo called Winter Formal. And they say... Nice. And in the caption, they say, tickets for dance. It's pretty bad. And then I sent that screenshot to a public health department and to the chair of the county's public health board. The health department was aghast and heavily sighing,

and they have their work cut out for them in this area. But I was really surprised when I asked what the county chair for the Board of Health planned to do, if anything, to stop this, he refused to answer that question. And that just seemed like a strange choice for a person in that job. I think it feels like American exceptionalism, quote unquote, has made all of these public officials not believe they can do anything? Yes. I think if your town that you live in will come at you with pitchforks over a decision,

you might not want to make that decision. I know this public health person that I spoke to in Georgia, she said that after my previous story about her county having a super spreader dance, meaning this was the second one in that same county. She said that she got a lot of backlash from government officials, from parents, from the school about having just provided me comments about how it wasn't safe. Right, right, right. Jesus, we're so screwed. Olivia, this was amazing.

All right, so who is your fuck-that guy, Rick Wilson? My fuck-that guy, are you fucking 17 traitorous scumbag asshole attorney? General. Sorry guys to be recursive and repetitive, but all of you have besmirched your office, dishonored yourselves, covered yourselves in the revolting shit-like ikor of Trumpism, and your reputations will be soiled forever and a nod. Thank you very much for coming to my TED Talk. Let's hope. My fuck that guy is Mark Zuckerberg. He could stop anytime he wants, right? We have, it's the largest source of anti-vaxxer information on the internet. He could, you got the Gates Foundation giving millions of dollars to buy vaccines for poorer countries.

And you have Mark Zuckerberg just doesn't give a shit. So Mark Zuckerberg, you and Facebook, you're my fuck-that guy. I salute your fuck-that guy. Hey, folks, I'd also just like to add a bonus fuck-that guy for the Hanukkah season. The extra fuck-that guy. The extra fuck-that guy as one- As- Eight nights and fuck that guy. Eight nights and fuck that guy.

I like this. I'm going to extend a special fuck that guy to the National Review's Rich Lowry. Rich, there were years and years where I respected you as a writer and a thinker. Speak for yourself. What you have become now, what you have become now and now suddenly becoming an exercise and saying, well, maybe there is voter fraud. Maybe Trump did win is so pathetic. So anyway, look, it's a bonus fuck that guy.

from being a guy who wrote the lead editorial called Against Trump in 2016 to now engaging in lurid jackoff conspiracy horseshit with Donald Trump, it is a pathetic decline. Truly, truly pathetic. On that note, we'll wrap up this episode of the new abnormal from The Daily Beast. In future episodes, we'll be talking with smart folks from The Daily Beast and beyond from media, culture, politics, and science. who will help us understand what's happening to our country and the world.

We hope you'll subscribe to us on your favorite podcast app and share the show on social media. We're just getting started and don't want you to miss an episode. If you'd like to follow us on Twitter, I'm Molly Jongfest and he's the Rick Wilson. Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you again on the next episode. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at thedailybeast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover

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